Doctors Without Borders rejects being used for Syria War Propaganda by certain governments

[Catherina]

First they pre-emptively contradicted our government's use of them to bolster our flimsy claims but Kerry went ahead anyway. Now they're rejecting it publicly.


Response to Government References to MSF Syria Statement

Over the last two days, the American, British, and other governments have referred to reports from several groups, including Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF), while stating that the use of chemical weapons in Syria was “undeniable” and designating the perpetrators.

MSF today warned that its medical information could not be used as evidence to certify the precise origin of the exposure to a neurotoxic agent or to attribute responsibility.

On August 24, MSF announced that three hospitals it supplies in Syria’s Damascus governorate had reportedly received 3,600 patients displaying neurotoxic symptoms, of which 355 died. Although our information indicates mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent, MSF clearly stated that scientific confirmation of the toxic agent was required, and therefore called for an independent investigation to shed light on what would constitute, if confirmed, a massive and unacceptable violation of international humanitarian law.

MSF also stated that in its role as an independent medical humanitarian organization, it was not in a position to determine responsibility for the event. Now that an investigation is underway by United Nations inspectors, MSF rejects that our statement be used as a substitute for the investigation or as a justification for military action. MSF's sole purpose is to save lives, alleviate the suffering of populations torn by Syrian conflict, and bear witness when confronted with a critical event, in strict compliance with the principles of neutrality and impartiality.

The latest massive influx of patients displaying neurotoxic symptoms in Damascus governorate comes on top of an already catastrophic humanitarian situation facing the Syrian people, one characterized by extreme violence, displacement, the destruction of medical facilities, and severely limited or blocked humanitarian action.

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/press/release.cfm?id=7033&cat=press-release

"What is before us today is real, and it is compelling. So I also want to underscore that while investigators are gathering additional evidence on the ground, our understanding of what has already happened in Syria is grounded in facts informed by conscience and guided by common sense. The reported number of victims, the reported symptoms of those who were killed or injured, the firsthand accounts from humanitarian organizations on the ground like Doctors Without Borders and the Syria Human Rights Commission – these all strongly indicate that everything these images are already screaming at us is real, that chemical weapons were used in Syria."

John Kerry, August 26, 2013

[Schema Thing]

1. They are re-affirming THEIR neutrality. As they should.

[ProSense]

6. Exactly, these organizations do that in all such cases. n/t

[sabrina 1]

2. Good for them for not going along with the massive propaganda being shoved down

the American people's throats by the unreliable Corporate Media.

Thank the gods for Independent media where people can now go to a more neutral perspective.

If only the people had the access they now have to media from all over the world, when Bush was lying, through the Corporate Controlled Media, and dragging this country into these disastrous wars.

The difference in the reaction of the public this timehas to do with more information to contradict the propaganda all over the world putting a brake on these bloody wars there seem to be no end to.

[malaise]

5. You know our so called democratic governments

eventually infiltrate and fugg up every institution - just ask the Red Cross

[gopiscrap]

3. Good for them!

[ProSense]

4. Where does it say "propaganda"? There is no conflict. The DWB statement is

MSF today warned that its medical information could not be used as evidence to certify the precise origin of the exposure to a neurotoxic agent or to attribute responsibility.

...is that its information can't be used as a substitute for an investigation.

Kerry's statement cited only the number of casualties in humanitarian terms.

"What is before us today is real, and it is compelling. So I also want to underscore that while investigators are gathering additional evidence on the ground, our understanding of what has already happened in Syria is grounded in facts informed by conscience and guided by common sense. The reported number of victims, the reported symptoms of those who were killed or injured, the firsthand accounts from humanitarian organizations on the ground like Doctors Without Borders and the Syria Human Rights Commission – these all strongly indicate that everything these images are already screaming at us is real, that chemical weapons were used in Syria."

John Kerry, August 26, 2013

He did not attribute origin to DWB.

[kelliekat44]

23. Some people listen only to their own preconceived notions or what they would like to be. nt

[pnwmom]

7. You're manufacturing a conflict between Kerry and DWB that doesn't exist.

Doctors without Borders is saying that while they can confirm the fact that neurotoxins were used, they can't speak to the ORIGIN of the neurotoxins.

John Kerry only said that DWB and others show that "chemical weapons were used in Syria"; he didn't claim that DWB proved who used them. That information came from other sources.

[davidpdx]

10. Exactly

While Kerry has made other statements about Syria, the statements quoted match. The point was that DWB confirmed the use of chemical weapons. This is just another fabrication.

[MNBrewer]

19. They did not say "they can confirm the fact that neurotoxins were used"

"MSF clearly stated that scientific confirmation of the toxic agent was required".

They are saying that confirmation is required. Not that they are confirming it. You are putting words in their mouths, and using them for propaganda too.

[pnwmom]

24. You're lifting that one sentence out of context.

And the context is that they've acknowledged treating hundreds of patients for neurotoxins after the attack.

They're confirming that a neurotoxin was involved without identifying the precise neurotoxin or being able to testify to its origin. Neither Kerry nor Obama said anything that conflicts with this.

MSF today warned that its medical information could not be used as evidence to certify the precise origin of the exposure to a neurotoxic agent or to attribute responsibility.

On August 24, MSF announced that three hospitals it supplies in Syria’s Damascus governorate had reportedly received 3,600 patients displaying neurotoxic symptoms, of which 355 died.

Although our information indicates mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent, MSF clearly stated that scientific confirmation of the toxic agent was required, and therefore called for an independent investigation to shed light on what would constitute, if confirmed, a massive and unacceptable violation of international humanitarian law.

MSF also stated that in its role as an independent medical humanitarian organization, it was not in a position to determine responsibility for the event.

[MNBrewer]

29. You are reading what you want to read into a very plain statement by MSF

that they are NOT confirming the presence of neurotoxins. They confirmed the presence of symptoms consistent with exposure to neurotoxins. That's what is called an hypothesis. In this case it's a pretty solid hypothesis, but it STILL requires confirmation and it's confirmation that MSF is not providing.

[pnwmom]

32. You can bet every single patient's chart says they were exposed to an unknown toxin.

They are confirming a medical diagnosis of exposure to neurotoxins without identifying the specific neurotoxin.

Doctors do this kind of thing all the time. Then the lab tests can provide further information.

[MNBrewer]

33. Perhaps you'll listen to Dr. Janssens.

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/press/release.cfm?id=7029&cat=press-release

“MSF can neither scientifically confirm the cause of these symptoms nor establish who is responsible for the attack,” said Dr. Janssens. “However, the reported symptoms of the patients, in addition to the epidemiological pattern of the events—characterized by the massive influx of patients in a short period of time, the origin of the patients, and the contamination of medical and first aid workers—strongly indicate mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent. This would constitute a violation of international humanitarian law, which absolutely prohibits the use of chemical and biological weapons.”

[BOG PERSON]

22. i love posting here, at LegaleseUnderground

[JaneyVee]

8. This is a normal action/response for such a group.

[sabrina 1]

9. You mean 'reaction'. They would not have needed to make any statement had they

not felt they were being used to bolster an intervention by the US.

They generally don't have the need to explain their well known work, which does not include being used to support wars based on non facts.

As they and so many others have pointed out, no one even knows what the chemical used was yet.

[JaneyVee]

12. As another poster said, they are likely just reaffirming their neutrality.

Which is understandable. I don't think they feel used as much as they feel obligated to mention they have no stated objective other than their goal of medical assistance to the international community.

[ProSense]

11. Still, think about the implications of DWB's statement:

On August 24, MSF announced that three hospitals it supplies in Syria’s Damascus governorate had reportedly received 3,600 patients displaying neurotoxic symptoms, of which 355 died. Although our information indicates mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent, MSF clearly stated that scientific confirmation of the toxic agent was required, and therefore called for an independent investigation to shed light on what would constitute, if confirmed, a massive and unacceptable violation of international humanitarian law.

It mentions the UN investigation.

Syria: Ban briefed by UN disarmament chief on latest developments - UN spokesperson

31 August 2013 – Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon today met with the top United Nations disarmament official, just back from Damascus, on the chemical weapons investigation and the latest developments in Syria. The meeting comes as the UN inspection team arrived in the Netherlands earlier today to carry out a rapid analysis of samples gathered.

UN Spokesperson Martin Nesirky told reporters in New York that Mr. Ban met with UN High Representative for Disarmament Affairs Angela Kane for over an hour.

“Ms. Kane briefed the Secretary-General on her trip and on the current status of the investigation,” Mr. Nesirky said, adding that that she thanked the Syrian Government and opposition for their cooperation during this mission. Ms. Kane had been in Damascus, at Mr. Ban's request, meeting with the Syrian Government to facilitate access for the team of inspectors, who arrived on 18 August.

<...>

The inspection team, led by Swedish scientist Dr. Åke Sellström, is now in The Hague, the headquarters of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapon (OPCW), which is assisting the probe, along with the UN World Health Organization (WHO).

- more -

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=45744&Cr=Syria&Cr1=

[David__77]

13. This is not a run-of-the-mill statement.

They are actually calling out the fact that their statements have indeed been mischaracterized. I find that striking.

[pnwmom]

14. No, they're not. They are preemptively moving to make sure no one misinterprets

their confirmation of the use of neurotoxins to mean that this proves anything about the ORIGIN of the neurotoxin.

And neither Obama nor Kerry have done so. Their conclusions about the origin of the neurotoxins were not based on anything DWB did or said.

"What is before us today is real, and it is compelling. So I also want to underscore that while investigators are gathering additional evidence on the ground, our understanding of what has already happened in Syria is grounded in facts informed by conscience and guided by common sense. The reported number of victims, the reported symptoms of those who were killed or injured, the firsthand accounts from humanitarian organizations on the ground like Doctors Without Borders and the Syria Human Rights Commission – these all strongly indicate that everything these images are already screaming at us is real, that chemical weapons were used in Syria."

John Kerry, August 26, 2013

[MNBrewer]

20. They did NOT confirm the use of neurotoxins. STOP with the LIE!!!

[pnwmom]

21. Yes they did.

What they could not do was determine the source of the neurotoxins.

MSF today warned that its medical information could not be used as evidence to certify the precise origin of the exposure to a neurotoxic agent or to attribute responsibility.

On August 24, MSF announced that three hospitals it supplies in Syria’s Damascus governorate had reportedly received 3,600 patients displaying neurotoxic symptoms, of which 355 died.

[MNBrewer]

26. I don't know what your medical or biological background is, but

They characterized the symptoms presented by the patients as neurotoxic. That's what physicians do. They observe the symptoms, form hypotheses as to what might have caused these symptoms, but they let the lab scientists do the scientific tests for confirmation of what is or isn't present in the samples.

They said "Although our information indicates mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent, MSF clearly stated that scientific confirmation of the toxic agent was required." In this context the word "indicates" forms the basis of a medical hypothesis. That hypothesis explicitly must be confirmed by additional laboratory testing.

A plain reading of their statement reveals that they suspect that neurotoxins were used, but that CONFIRMATION IS REQUIRED. How much clearer can it possibly be that they aren't the ones doing the confirming???

[pnwmom]

27. They know that a neurotoxin was involved, but they don't know which exact neurotoxin was used.

Or who was responsible for the attack.

And neither Kerry nor Obama said they did.

[MNBrewer]

30. They explicitly do NOT know that!

They suspect it strongly, and are wisely waiting for laboratory results to be processed before making that statement.

[Marr]

37. They do NOT. They stated that extremely clearly.

I don't see what's so hard to comprehend about at, except that you don't *want* to know it.

[MNBrewer]

38. +1

[pnwmom]

40. This is ridiculous hairsplitting.

They are confirming mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent, but they are also saying that the specific toxic agent hasn't been confirmed.

"Although our information indicates mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent, MSF clearly stated that scientific confirmation of the toxic agent was required, and therefore called for an independent investigation to shed light on what would constitute, if confirmed, a massive and unacceptable violation of international humanitarian law."

[MNBrewer]

43. No, the distinction means enough to MSF that they issued the press release

They. Are. NOT. Confirming. PERIOD.

They are saying that it is likely that the exposure occurred and that confirmation is required.

Why can't you get that? Is it really that difficult?

[pnwmom]

48. The point of the press release is to emphasize that they don't know the ORIGIN

of "the" neurotoxic agent that was involved.

[MNBrewer]

49. And that they are not confirming that a neurotoxic agent was used

CONFIRMING that the symptoms were consistent with exposure to a neurotoxin, and that confirmation of THAT is remains to be done by some one else.

What you are suggesting is as though you went in to the Dr. with a fever, vomiting and diarrhea and the Dr. said "your symptoms are consistent with infection by norovirus, I think you might have that" then claiming that the Dr. confirmed that you have norovirus even before the sample had gone to the laboratory.

[pnwmom]

51. They're confirming they don't know the origin of "the" neurotoxic agent involved.

That means there was some neurotoxic agent involved.

[MNBrewer]

50. I'll repeat this:

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/press/release.cfm?id=7029&cat=press-release

“MSF can neither scientifically confirm the cause of these symptoms nor establish who is responsible for the attack,” said Dr. Janssens. “However, the reported symptoms of the patients, in addition to the epidemiological pattern of the events—characterized by the massive influx of patients in a short period of time, the origin of the patients, and the contamination of medical and first aid workers—strongly indicate mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent. This would constitute a violation of international humanitarian law, which absolutely prohibits the use of chemical and biological weapons.”

[joshcryer]

39. And Kerry says "indicate" so he's a propagandist?

WTF?

[MNBrewer]

41. Hmm.. Are you meaning to respond to me?

Did I say that somewhere?

[joshcryer]

42. OP says Kerry is a propagandist.

You claim that MSF only indicates a neurotoxin.

So does Kerry!

[MNBrewer]

44. I didn't write the OP take it up with the author

And I don't make the claim that MSF only indicates a neurotoxin... THEY do. Clearly. No interpretation required.

[joshcryer]

45. So does Kerry!

Kerry literally said indicate!

The position is the same!

[MNBrewer]

46. Well, wonderful. yay. Why discuss it with ME?

TAKE. IT. UP. WITH. THE. AUTHOR.

[joshcryer]

47. Sorry, assumed you agreed with the OP.

My bad. I am reading over your posts and there doesn't appear to be any indication that you agree with the OP that Kerry was spreading propaganda.

[Catherina]

17. They made it so clear beforehand that many of us were shocked

This was just one of the threads About the Doctors Without Borders "confirmation" of the chemical attacks....

I'm glad they put out this additional Press Release after their name was cleverly parsed in Kerry's statement.

[MNBrewer]

35. Mischaracterized indeed (#14, for example)

[SunSeeker]

16. Really misleading title. MSF did not accuse Kerry of spreading "war propaganda."

They just want to make clear that they did not nor are they going to opine on the source of the chemicals nor the actual type of chemical involved. Because they want to make sure the Syrian government keeps letting them do their work in that country. Kerry did not say MSF opined on the source or identity of the chemical. He just said that MSF on the ground accounts "strongly indicate that everything these images are already screaming at us is real, that chemical weapons were used in Syria." MSF does not say this statement is wrong or "propaganda"; nor does the Syrian government for that matter.

[KittyWampus]

18. Why the need for such bogus editorializing in your thread titles? Talk about propaganda.

Actual title- "Response to Government References to MSF Syria Statement"

Why not post the actual title with a possible word or two added at the end?

[KittyWampus]

28. obnoxious dumbshits? You mean the ones comparing Powell's empty vial to 1000 dead civilians?

Or the ones who started bleeting "false flag" immediately and still continue to post crap news from crap websites to try and flog that dead, fly-ridden rightwing horse?

[Egalitarian Thug]

31. I wrote obnoxious dumbshits, I meant obnoxious dumbshits.

Take it however you like, Catherina gets an automatic K&R from me from now on.

[HumansAndResources]

52. Claiming "False Flag" or Considering the Very Real Possibility?

A claim would require proof, which we don't have. We DO have a very illogical action, if indeed carried out by Assad's men, given they were about to walk into a peace-treaty discussion with the upper hand when this occurred. We ALSO have a long-history of false-flags to justify war. It would be unwise to take that Very Real Possibility "off the table" given those facts.

But there is more. "... a senior UN official, Carla Del Ponte, suggested in March that the rebels might well have used sarin gas, one might reasonably hesitate until we know a great deal more than we know now."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10276421/Syria-David-Camerons-fairly-honourable-defeat.html

And ... "Testimony from victims of the conflict in Syria suggests rebels have used the nerve agent, sarin, a leading member of a UN commission of inquiry has said. Carla Del Ponte told Swiss TV that there were 'strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof'."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22424188

The World Socialist Website is also reporting on that, so it isn't some "right wing conspiracy."

And then we have the "confessions" from rebels who received CW from the Saudis from an AP reporter, Dale Gavlak. AP didn't pick up this story, however:

(Dale) Gavlak is a MintPress News Middle East correspondent who has been freelancing for the AP as a Amman, Jordan correspondent for nearly a decade.

“My son came to me two weeks ago asking what I thought the weapons were that he had been asked to carry,” said Abu Abdel-Moneim, the father of a rebel fighting to unseat Assad, who lives in Ghouta.

Abdel-Moneim said his son and 12 other rebels were killed inside of a tunnel used to store weapons provided by a Saudi militant, known as Abu Ayesha, who was leading a fighting battalion. The father described the weapons as having a “tube-like structure” while others were like a “huge gas bottle.”

...
“They didn’t tell us what these arms were or how to use them,” complained a female fighter named ‘K.’ “We didn’t know they were chemical weapons. We never imagined they were chemical weapons.”

“When Saudi Prince Bandar gives such weapons to people, he must give them to those who know how to handle and use them,” she warned. She, like other Syrians, do not want to use their full names for fear of retribution.

...
“We were very curious about these arms. And unfortunately, some of the fighters handled the weapons improperly and set off the explosions,” ‘J’ said.

...
Doctors who treated the chemical weapons attack victims cautioned interviewers to be careful about asking questions regarding who, exactly, was responsible for the deadly assault.

...
More than a dozen rebels interviewed reported that their salaries came from the Saudi government.

[MNBrewer]

34. Cool

[Violet_Crumble]

36. No thanks. I've got no time for mindless sycophancy...

I K&R OPs that are informative, factual and are from DUers I respect, so I won't be joining you in any rec without thinking campaigns. Sorry...

[idwiyo]

53. K&R