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Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
Sun Sep 1, 2013, 04:44 PM Sep 2013

FAIR.org: Which Syrian Chemical Attack Account Is More Credible?

Let's compare a couple of accounts of the mass deaths apparently caused by chemical weapons in the Damascus suburb of Ghouta on August 21. One account comes from the U.S. government (8/30/13), introduced by Secretary of State John Kerry. The other was published by a Minnesota-based news site called Mint Press News (8/29/13).

....

The U.S. government, of course, has a track record that will incline informed observers to approach its claims with skepticism–particularly when it's making charges about the proscribed weapons of official enemies. Kerry said in his address that "our intelligence community" has been "more than mindful of the Iraq experience"–as should be anyone listening to Kerry's presentation, because the Iraq experience informs us that secretaries of State can express great confidence about matters that they are completely wrong about, and that U.S. intelligence assessments can be based on distortion of evidence and deliberate suppression of contradictory facts.

Comparing Kerry's presentation on Syria and its accompanying document to Colin Powell's speech to the UN on Iraq, though, one is struck by how little specific evidence was included in the case for the Syrian government's use of chemical weapons. It gives the strong impression of being pieced together from drone surveillance and NSA intercepts, supplemented by Twitter messages and YouTube videos, rather than from on-the-ground reporting or human intelligence. Much of what is offered tries to establish that the victims in Ghouta had been exposed to chemical weapons–a question that indeed had been in some doubt, but had already largely been settled by a report by Doctors Without Borders that reported that thousands of people in the Damascus area had been treated for "neurotoxic symptoms."

....

Mint quotes Abu Abdel-Moneim, described as the father of a rebel killed in the chemical weapons attacks, as saying that his son had described carrying unconventional weapons provided by Saudi Arabia to underground storage tunnels–a "tubelike structure" and a "huge gas bottle." A rebel leader identified as J describes the release of toxic weaponry as accidental, saying, "Some of the fighters handled the weapons improperly and set off the explosions." Another rebel referred to as K complains, "When Saudi Prince Bandar gives such weapons to people, he must give them to those who know how to handle and use them."


Of course, independent media accounts are not necessarily more credible than official reports–or vice versa. As with the government white paper, there are gaps in the Mint account; while Abdel-Moneim cites his late son's account of carrying chemical weapons, the rebels quoted do not indicate how they came to know what they say they know about the origin of the weapons. But unlike the government, Mint is honest about the limits of its knowledge: "Some information in this article could not be independently verified," the story admits. "Mint Press News will continue to provide further information and updates."

....

http://www.fair.org/blog/2013/09/01/which-syrian-chemical-attack-account-is-more-credible/
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FAIR.org: Which Syrian Chemical Attack Account Is More Credible? (Original Post) Junkdrawer Sep 2013 OP
how they came to know what they say they know about the origin of the weapons ? dipsydoodle Sep 2013 #1
Thanks. Appreciate a link... Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #3
You'd have to search back some weeks here on DU. dipsydoodle Sep 2013 #4
I believe Kerry, who said that Egypt coupists restored Democracy to the nation David Krout Sep 2013 #2
Are saying that Kerry acknowledges it was a coup ? dipsydoodle Sep 2013 #6
Wow..if he DID..... dixiegrrrrl Sep 2013 #7
That was why I queried it. dipsydoodle Sep 2013 #8
It's sarcasm son ... GeorgeGist Sep 2013 #13
Kerry's, by a mile. I wouldn't use the other to wrap fish in. N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Sep 2013 #5
Rah, rah, rah My Team is Best. GeorgeGist Sep 2013 #14
I guess FAIR gets thrown under the bus now, since they are skeptical of the administration's claims. alarimer Sep 2013 #9
Well, it's odd how incompatible the two narratives we are being fed are. bemildred Sep 2013 #10
Time, a FREE press, and the UN are the only things that will shake out these questions... Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #11
Indeed. One thing I liked about Obama's statement is that he said there is no hurry. bemildred Sep 2013 #12
First, they wanted them IN. GeorgeGist Sep 2013 #15
And here's a retired US Army colonel's opinion. JohnyCanuck Sep 2013 #16
Thank you for posting. nt proverbialwisdom Sep 2013 #19
Easy question Turbineguy Sep 2013 #17
I don't give a shit what happened. I want the US NOT involved in ANY mbperrin Sep 2013 #18
I can't imagine that with all of the interest in this situation cheapdate Sep 2013 #20
I'll bet a LOT of solid journalism is being spiked right now... Junkdrawer Sep 2013 #21
What is Al Arabiya reporting? cheapdate Sep 2013 #22

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
1. how they came to know what they say they know about the origin of the weapons ?
Sun Sep 1, 2013, 04:51 PM
Sep 2013

Reported a while back - Saudi labeling.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
4. You'd have to search back some weeks here on DU.
Sun Sep 1, 2013, 04:55 PM
Sep 2013

I wouldn't have clue where to start but I will see what find I can elsewhere.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
7. Wow..if he DID.....
Sun Sep 1, 2013, 05:51 PM
Sep 2013

then how many laws did we break by continuing to send aid and arms and money and etc. to Egypt.

not that it matters of course, since the rule of law was murdered by person or persons unknown over 10 years ago....

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
9. I guess FAIR gets thrown under the bus now, since they are skeptical of the administration's claims.
Sun Sep 1, 2013, 05:54 PM
Sep 2013

Personally, I think out government has been lying to us constantly since before I've been alive. I would no more believe Obama or Kerry than I believe monkeys can write Shakespeare.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
10. Well, it's odd how incompatible the two narratives we are being fed are.
Sun Sep 1, 2013, 06:11 PM
Sep 2013

A sign of spin run off the rails. And since both sides are inveterate liars, there is no way to tell without more real evidence.

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
11. Time, a FREE press, and the UN are the only things that will shake out these questions...
Sun Sep 1, 2013, 06:43 PM
Sep 2013

Frankly, calls for the UN to "stop investigations so we can get on with the bombings" are telling.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
12. Indeed. One thing I liked about Obama's statement is that he said there is no hurry.
Sun Sep 1, 2013, 06:50 PM
Sep 2013

Not time sensitive. So he's not going for the bums rush.

GeorgeGist

(25,319 posts)
15. First, they wanted them IN.
Sun Sep 1, 2013, 07:08 PM
Sep 2013

Once they got there, they wanted them OUT.

By the time Boehner sobers up who knows where we'll be?

JohnyCanuck

(9,922 posts)
16. And here's a retired US Army colonel's opinion.
Sun Sep 1, 2013, 07:08 PM
Sep 2013

Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson (Ret) who was the Chief of Staff to US Secretary of State Colin Powell in the runup to GW2 (in which role he helped to pass on the cooked intelligence used as a justification for invading Iraq) tells Cenk at the Young Turks that what he hears from the intelligence community is that the evidence linking the gas attack to Assad is "realy flakey" and he states it is quite possible the gas attack could have been a false flag operation by the oposition or even by the Israelis.



mbperrin

(7,672 posts)
18. I don't give a shit what happened. I want the US NOT involved in ANY
Sun Sep 1, 2013, 07:17 PM
Sep 2013

way.

Every war we have fought since 1952 has been unjustifiable, expensive, and deadly in human terms. I can't speak for before that - I wasn't born yet.

ABSOLUTELY no more war for the US, anywhere.

cheapdate

(3,811 posts)
20. I can't imagine that with all of the interest in this situation
Sun Sep 1, 2013, 07:47 PM
Sep 2013

both in the region and around the world, that there aren't scores of different journalists reporting for scores of different news organizations concerning the incident. Surely, there are various reports being published in newspapers all around the region. I can't imagine that the only competing narratives are the US State Department's and Dale Gavlak's report in Mint Press.

(on edit: it just seems incredible to me how much one report by journalist Dale Gavlak published by Mint Press, in which he briefly quotes three people -- one named, two unnamed -- that he interviewed in the street who claim that some rebels accidentally exploded a chemical warhead that was provided by a Saudi has been amplified.

I'm not saying that the quotes are not genuine or that Gavlak fabricated anything, I'm just saying that a handful of street interviews is hardly the gold standard for truth finding.)

Junkdrawer

(27,993 posts)
21. I'll bet a LOT of solid journalism is being spiked right now...
Sun Sep 1, 2013, 08:37 PM
Sep 2013

I'll bet that's why first rate journalists are forced to publish in second or third tier venues.

cheapdate

(3,811 posts)
22. What is Al Arabiya reporting?
Sun Sep 1, 2013, 09:06 PM
Sep 2013

What is Al Jazeera reporting from it's regional bureaus? What are the newspapers in Beirut, Lebanon reporting? I've made a small effort to check, but I can't find anything much. Some good reporting in The Guardian from a week and a half ago. I'm not all that conspiracy minded, but...

(on edit: the regional Arabic newspapers seem to be chock full of information, but it's in Arabic.)

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