Melissa Harris-Perry: "Rape is rape. Full stop."

[UrbScotty]

She wrote this open letter to the judge who let a rapist off way too easily:

It’s me, Melissa.

I’d like to think it’s a safe assumption that, of all people, a district court judge in Montana is intimately familiar with the laws in Montana. You know, since it’s your job and all. But your statements in court on Monday suggest that maybe you could use a bit of a refresher, so allow me to help you out.

According to Montana law, a victim is incapable of giving consent if the victim is less than 16 years old. Incapable of giving consent. Because, Judge Baugh, a victim less than 16 years old—in this case a 14-year-old—is a child. A child, like 44% of those who are victims of rape.

And the law codifies our collective understanding that children deserve special protections because their youth and immaturity makes them inherently dis-empowered in a sexual, as you call it, “situation”—with an adult. Which means Cherice, this child, was in no way capable of controlling or consenting to the actions of the grown man who had sex with her.

...

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/08/31/a-letter-to-the-montana-judge-who-went-easy-on-a-child-rapist/

[Downwinder]

1. That Judge's previous decisions should be reviewed.

[niyad]

2. and, just possibly, he should spend some time behind bars.

[Downwinder]

3. If misogyny rises to a criminal level.

[davidn3600]

11. None of these judges did time behind bars for their decisions

http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2013/02/female_teacher_get_no_jail_aft.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/teacher-jail-sex-boy-article-1.1371629

http://www.kasa.com/dpps/news/crime/no-jail-for-teacher-charged-with-rape_4221815

http://wreg.com/2012/08/24/no-jail-time-for-arlington-teacher-who-raped-students/

http://q13fox.com/2013/01/21/teacher-marries-ex-student-to-avoid-jail-for-rape/#axzz2dgaz5bzn

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/17/lauren-redfern-high-schoo_n_1794666.html


Now don't get me wrong. Im glad finally a judge is being raked over the media's coals for letting a rapist off the hook. But this kind of thing is routine. And both male and female rapists frequently slip through the fingers of the law. This judge in Montana is not unique by any stretch.

[niyad]

13. you seem to be implying that there are as many female as male rapists.

[Oakenshield]

14. I think he was just trying not to be appear partial to one gender over the other regarding the crime

Just my opinion.

[niyad]

15. except there are not an equal number of male and female rapists

[davidn3600]

17. Not at all. There are many more male rapists, along with pretty much all other violent crimes

And Im not disputing that. And men get away with rape quite often. Im not disputing that either. We all know those statistics. It's sick stuff.

It all makes us disgustingly sick this sick pervert in Montana gets only 30 days in jail for raping a 14 year old student. But where was the national outrage before when a female rapist got no jail time for raping students?

I say put both the male and female rapist in prison and throw away the key. If you think that position is wrong...please enlighten me. I legitimately want to know. I believe the laws should be applied to everyone equally. Is that not feminism? If it's not, then I've been going about this wrong my whole life.

[salin]

19. Rape is rape.

The sentences should be equal - and consequential (not 30 days.)

[Bay Boy]

26. Where in the world did you see...

...implied, suggested or stated?

[sheshe2]

12. Agreed. nt

[alp227]

5. Yes, this judge is crap on a whole lotta other issues...

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/28/justice/montana-judge-profile/

[Downwinder]

8. I would bet that you would find some very strange family law decisions.

[CTyankee]

4. This judge is a sick, ugly fuck...he needs to be retired NOW...

GONE from the bench forever!

[alp227]

6. MH-P K&R nt

[DearAbby]

7. What deeply bothers me

Obama is asking these same people, who do not view Rape as atrocity, but a gift from GOD, to determine if gassing people is also a gift from GOD, or an Atrocity.

[Snake Plissken]

9. The Judge's line of reasoning is a little too Jerry Sandusky-esque for my taste

I certainly wouldn't let him near any children if it was up to me.

[Jim Lane]

10. Should the "forcible rape" issue be a factor at all?

Consider two men, each convicted of raping a 14-year-old girl. The first defendant was propositioned by the girl, who, bombarded by media fixation on sex, was curious and wanted to know what it was like. He knew perfectly well that she was underage and that the act would be illegal, but he went ahead anyway. The second man grabbed a girl walking through the park, pulled her into the bushes, held a knife to her throat, and said that if she screamed or fought back he'd kill her.

Are both men guilty of rape? Yes.
Should both men receive prison time? Yes.
Should both men receive significantly more than 30 days in prison? Yes.
Should both men be sentenced by judges who aren't idiots? Yes.

The serious question raised by this judge's reference to "violent, forcible, horrible rape" is whether these two rapists should receive the same sentence. I think they should not. The second defendant, who has indeed perpetrated a violent, forcible, horrible rape, should be punished more severely. This result would further two of the purposes of criminal punishment: retribution (because his conduct was more reprehensible) and incapacitation (because he's more of a threat to society).

The tough part is that, if you say the second defendant's sentence should be longer than the other one's, then you are, necessarily, saying that the first one's sentence should be shorter than that of the knife-wielder. I suspect that some people have a block about saying anything that could be interpreted as "shorter sentence for rapist" because it might seem to put them in league with the Todd Akins of this world. Nevertheless, I do think that the use of force or the threat of the use of force is an aggravating factor that should be considered in sentencing. If "rape is rape" means that all rapes must be treated identically, then I disagree with Melissa Harris-Perry on this one.

[chervilant]

24. Rape is rape!

Your "compare and contrast" hypotheticals do NOT change that fact.

Furthermore, "forcible" is a slippery slope whenever a rapist has "power over" their victim.

We survivors spend a lot of time trying to convince ourselves that "it wasn't that bad." "At least he didn't use a knife..." I'm 57, and I still go through these mental gyrations -- a common survival strategy for survivors of any trauma.

You might want to reconsider your assertion. It seems I'm not the only one who finds it offensive.

[Jim Lane]

42. I stand by what I said about sentencing.

I’m not pretending to any knowledge about the problems facing survivors. My only comparable experience was being diagnosed with cancer, and although both are traumatic experiences, people treat cancer and rape differently. Getting cancer isn’t seen by anyone as a blot on one’s honor. No one suggests that cancer patients brought it on themselves by wearing revealing clothing or getting drunk at a party or whatever. (Even if in some sense they did bring it on themselves, like a longtime chain smoker who gets lung cancer, I think people tend to be more tactful.) Therefore, even though you and I have both survived bad experiences, I don’t have the ongoing problems that you and other rape survivors have to deal with. My post wasn’t intended to address those problems or the mental gyrations you describe.

You’re writing from the perspective of a survivor. I was writing from the perspective of the criminal justice system, and asking how that system should deal with rapes. The law must consider multiple factors, including but not limited to the effect on the victim.

For example, one could say “Homicide is homicide. Full stop.” Nevertheless, it’s very common to distinguish between murder and manslaughter. The victim is just as dead either way, but many legal systems impose a more severe punishment on the perpetrator whose actions are deemed more blameworthy.

Yes, factors like that (the intent element in homicide, or “forcible” in a rape case) can be a slippery slope. In the death of Trayvon Martin, for example, people who are angry at the acquittal can reasonably disagree about whether George Zimmerman should have been convicted of manslaughter or second-degree murder. Those problems don’t arise when, instead, the law can provide a bright-line test, such as “A person who hasn’t reached his or her 17th birthday (or whatever the age in that state is) can’t give legally effective consent to sex, so any such sex is rape.” That isn’t always possible, though. It doesn’t mean that we ignore factors that can’t be dealt with as precisely as the age of consent. We just have to do the best we can.

My assertion was that, in the hypothetical I gave, the knife-wielding rapist should receive a longer sentence. No one has given me any reason to reconsider that assertion. In fact, no one has expressly stated that the two rapists should receive the same sentence. I personally would be offended by a legal system that treated them identically.

[seabeyond]

43. do you understand the concept that a 14 yr old does not have the ability or the experience

to deal with life the same as an adult?

[Jim Lane]

50. Indeed I do, as I thought my post made clear.

My hypothetical was that of a 14-year-old girl who wanted to have sex with the man. I said that, even if she wanted it, the man was still guilty of rape, he should receive prison time, and he should receive significantly more than 30 days in prison.

That's the law and I approve of it. I didn't elaborate on the reason, because I assumed everyone understood it, but, since you ask, the reason is what you say. Society recognizes the limitations on children's ability to deal with life. One consequence is that the law establishes a per se rule: an underage person cannot give legally effective consent to sex, and therefore sex with such a person is rape, regardless of what he or she was saying or doing or wearing or drinking or anything else.

I've just reread my post #10. You seem to be imputing to me the point of view that if the 14-year-old said "Yes, let's do this," then it's not rape. I thought I was pretty explicit in disavowing that point of view. ("Are both men guilty of rape? Yes.&quot At any rate, if it was somehow unclear before, I hope it's clear now.

[seabeyond]

51. yes. the thing...

even if a young person of either gender think they are ready, i have yet to hear one of these situations where the person is older and of authority, where later that person was not as effected as any other kind of rape. something they carry that they know was wrong but society see it differently than rape leaving them in more of a quandary than the struggled, violent, what some would say 'legitimate" rape. effecting the psych for a lifetime.

there cannot be the differential of one type being "more" harmful than another because they both have their own particular devastation.

[Jim Lane]

53. I'm still not clear about your position.

Do you think that the two rapists in my hypothetical in #10 should receive identical sentences?

[seabeyond]

59. post 58 below. i answered this post on you post 10. nt

[chervilant]

62. Of course, you do.

Why am I not surprised?

I have been an advocate for survivors of relationship violence for more than three decades. I have advocated for survivors who were date raped, raped by their husbands or boyfriends, raped by their fathers or other male family members, raped by their pastor or other religious advisor, and raped by strangers. These survivors -- without exception -- were sentenced to a lifetime of recovery by their rapists. It seems rather facile to suggest that a fifty + yo man whose criminal actions resulted in the suicide of his victim should be sentenced differently than a man who uses a weapon (other than his penis) to execute a rape.

Rape is rape. I stand by that assertion.

[seabeyond]

45. i am listening to men tell us there is a difference with a lolita havin

Last edited Mon Sep 2, 2013, 09:47 PM - Edit history (1)

sex with a man that is 35 fuckin years older than she and how she is responsible for her experience.

i have to say, that on sex with a CHILD we give it to the child to have the same cognitive abilities of an adult, where everything else in our world we would see that person as a child. the only thing i can conclude with the men telling us these lolitas having sex with old men in power is perfectly natural is their own conditioning of privilege that our young take care of their sexual need that we see thru out our society and culture. cause i am telling you, in any other instance besides sex with an old man, we would clearly see this person as a child.

where am i seeing this incorrectly?

*clarification from lane, but still want to leave this post up

[Jim Lane]

52. If the "he" in your title means me, you're wrong.

The point of view you attack certainly does exist. The judge in this case seems to have been strongly influenced by it.

For my part, however, I didn't say that the "perfectly natural" defense or the blaming of a Lolita had any legal relevance to guilt or innocence. If the man -- be he five years older or thirty-five years older -- had sex with an underage girl, she can't give legally effective consent, therefore it was sex without consent, therefore he's guilty of rape.

The judge believes that some 14-year-olds are more mature and responsible than others. That's true, just as it's true that some kids reach the age of consent and still aren't ready to make these decisions. A judge, of all people, should know that it's simply not practical for the legal system to try to identify the minors who should not be subject to the general rule. Instead of a case-by-case approach, we just go by age.

Consider a girl at a party on the eve of her age-of-consent birthday. At 11:00 p.m. she goes into a bedroom and has sex with a man. A couple hours later she goes there again and has sex with a different man. The first man is guilty of rape but, assuming that she was sober and not coerced, the second man is not. She didn't become significantly more mature in two hours. Nevertheless, the law correctly uses a bright-line test here. The first man can't beat the rap by any amount of proof about how mature she was or how this Lolita enticed him into it or how there was some other reason she should not be treated as a child. Underage is underage -- full stop, as the saying goes. In one sense it's inequitable that the two men are treated so differently based only on a two-hour time lapse, but there's just no other way to do it.

[seabeyond]

54. after reading your last post to me i edited it. you must have been reading and replying

before i got to the edit.

i was much more fluid, giving, on this issue until i discussed it with husband. i tried to give a benefit of doubt approach, but husband was adamant. law is law. under 18 bad. no if and or buts. i got what he was saying. it is against the law, do not even play with that one. if it is clear there is no question to the right or wrong of it, a man will not experience a problem with it. a line...

from then on, i have held that line.

[Jim Lane]

63. Thanks for the clarification.

By the time I posted, you had edited your post, but I took long enough writing my response that I was still working off your original version, not having thought to check for an update. I appreciate your not lumping me in with the people who think that raping a "Lolita" is OK or that physical puberty is the dividing line or some other such belief.

I agree with you and your husband about holding an absolute line (underage=rape) when it comes to guilt or innocence. Criminal sentencing, however, is generally more complicated. For example, many jurisdictions now incorporate a victim impact statement as part of the sentencing process. In the article linked in the OP, Melissa Harris-Perry states, "Her mother testified at the hearing that her daughter’s rape had been a major reason for her suicide." If I were the judge, that would be a factor weighing in favor of a longer sentence. On the other hand, as far as the article reveals, this was the defendant's first offense. If the same facts arose with regard to a defendant who had previously been convicted of a rape, I would impose a longer sentence than otherwise. Another factor is that he was a teacher and the girl was a student at the same school. Although all adults have an obligation to refrain from harming the children of the community, teachers are entrusted with particular responsibility toward the students in their care; I would impose a heavier sentence on a teacher who violated that trust.

These are just some of the reasons why I think that identical sentences for all rapes, like identical sentences for all homicides, would be a bad idea.

[chervilant]

60. Have you read "The Best Kept Secret" by

Florence Rush? In it, she wrote:

Today, as in the past, our society which affirms that a minor has not the discretion to vote, leave home, enter a contract, take a job or even legally sell her doll or handkerchief, paradoxically sees the female child as responsible enough to sell her body. Now as before, we have no difficulty condemning a man who will take a child's bicycle (with or without her consent, because an adult is expected to discriminate right from wrong), but will wonder whether a man is to be held responsible for sexually using a nonresisting child. It is only in sexual matters that a child is held accountable as an adult and man permitted to be as irresponsible as a child. Consequently, the sexual abuse of children by adults has never been established as an irrefutable legal and moral violation and to this day remains a debatable polemic.

You are NOT seeing this incorrectly. The defenders, and those debating the "legalities," are -- not surprisingly -- all males.

[seabeyond]

61. holy cow.... lol. this. exactly this. sigh... yes. thank you. nt

[alphafemale]

25. "propositioned" by a child?

that is disgusting.

[seabeyond]

34. and a 14 yr old child who committed murder should be tried as an adult? do we progressives believe

this? no? why? cause a 14 is NOT an adult and cannot/does not think in the same manner nor have the experience. hence. we draw a line with CHILD.

[seabeyond]

58. i think this is exactly the problem we have.

The serious question raised by this judge's reference to "violent, forcible, horrible rape" is whether these two rapists should receive the same sentence. I think they should not. The second defendant, who has indeed perpetrated a violent, forcible, horrible rape, should be punished more severely. This result would further two of the purposes of criminal punishment: retribution (because his conduct was more reprehensible) and incapacitate (because he's more of a threat to society).

i think what our society has to clearly see is there is NOT a difference. rape is rape. one, a stranger is physically forcing against will thru threat.

the other is much more subtle but EQUALLY as forceful and threat thru manipulation and child/adult authoritive figure. as a matter of fact the second is even worse in ways because we associate it as not as "traumatic" and the girl being somewhat responsible giving her even more guilt and repercussion for the feelings that will manifest. so in ways, it is even worse than the first.

the first, it is clear the woman is a vicitim with no fault and as an adult can more readily put it in the place it needs to go to heal. the second victim is not afforded any of those opportunitites.

no. i think both must be seen equally and punishment must be equal. as a society we must see it as equal so more men have a clear message this is RAPE, wrong and they will not be admired.

when we have progressives, men on du making comments like.... once she hits puberty she is free game. and no man challenges that. i state, some girls hit puberty at 10, is she free game? and crickets. that tells us there is a real issue.

no... you have helped me to clarify even more that rape is rape and must be punished equally.

[David Krout]

16. You should have said what happened

What happened? Describe the incident.

[salin]

18. I will assume you really haven't heard of the case.

In short 14 yr old student and adult teacher have sex. The adult teacher is charged with statutory rape. The 14 yr old committed suicide before the trial. The judge reduces the mandatory sentence for the adult teacher to 30 days in jail - and suggests (since the girl is no longer alive and can not testify) that she was complicit and it was consensual sex.

The greatly reduced sentence, and blame cast - upon the deceased girl - is the source of disdain upon the judge.

If you are familiar with the case - and are question details (suggesting that there are mitigating circumstances that suggest that a suspended sentence reduced to 30 days might make sense), than I opt out of the conversation.

[chervilant]

22. Your description of this crime

is offensive. The 14 yo and her adult teacher didn't "have sex." That sick criminal teacher raped a 14 yo child.

[salin]

27. I appologize

I was trying to recast the frame from the judge. Of course it was rape. No question in my mind about that. I should have been more clear.

[chervilant]

35. Thank you

for this apology. I was perped on by my much older sister's ex-husband, while he was still married to her. He started grooming me to be his victim when I was 9 or 10. He was in his mid-thirties. I got away from him only by going to college.

He was also abusing my two younger sisters, which I didn't know until I was 27. I am very sensitive to abuse issues...

[salin]

40. I can not even begin to imagine

how deep those wounds must go. I am a survivor of acquaintance rape - and buried the trauma so deep it took ten years before I could begin it - and start to recognize and address a host of coping mechanisms I had adopted (including some self-loathing) in the intervening years. That was from a single event. My heart goes out to you and your siblings. No one should have to live through such horror.

I apologize, again. Sometimes I forget that my dry delivery is better in person (when mocking what I find a ridiculous perspective - the sarcasm can be heard in the voice, I haven't mastered that art in written word.)

[liberalhistorian]

28. And she committed suicide just before

her 17th birthday; her family said they believed that trauma from the rape had a lot to do with it. That's an especially horrible fact that the media and others, including here on DU, don't seem to be reporting much, if at all.

[chervilant]

33. Your attitude is part of the problem.

As an ADULT, mandated reporter, that teacher was responsible for rejecting any alleged "advances" from any underage children! There is no "consensual sex" between a teacher and an underage student!!!

OMG!!! You are disgusting!

[seabeyond]

36. not mere adult a fucking 50 yr old man.... abused his position and power with a 14 yr old child. nt

[niyad]

20. reading the linked article would have given you the information you requested.

[hlthe2b]

21. Unfortunately, we have some here that share that attitude....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3552734

(that particular post was sent to a jury and received a 1-5 decision to LEAVE with jurors commenting to suggest they too believed that this particular rape of a minor was not of the same "seriousness" as a violent rape--- )

Some days I just can not believe what passes for "progressives" today.

[Comrade Grumpy]

30. Hmmm, maybe the jury results should tell you something.

Are you really trying to tell us that agreeing to have sex with a guy too old for you is the same thing as being beaten up and sexually assaulted? There is a reason it's called "statutory rape" and not just "rape." Because words have meaning.

[hlthe2b]

32. And YOU are defending raping a 14 year old. Enough said.

[seabeyond]

41. so the only way it is "true" rape is IF a woman is black and blue, maybe dead,

showing she really put it all into fighting off the penetration.

what happens if she lies there and takes it. not fight. not get beat up. is that still "legitimate" rape?

[seabeyond]

37. that thread. we are also suppose to have EMPATHY for the rapist and HELP him.

The standard of not sleeping with the children you're put in charge

[Donald Ian Rankin]

23. I disagree. Statutory rape is *not* always morally rape.

An adult having sex with a 14-year-old *is* rape.

But in some jurisdictions the age of consent is 18. And to classify two 17-year-olds experimenting together, or even a 19-year-old having consensual sex with a 17-year-old, as rape, is misleading, I think. Usually there are "Romeo and Juliet" exceptions to those laws, but they're not always perfect.

All nonconsensual sex is rape morally as well as legally, without any exceptions whatsoever.
Most statutory rape, including this case, is rape morally as well as legally, but some isn't.

[Comrade Grumpy]

29. It is dishonest and simplistic to just say "rape is rape."

Especially in the context of this case, which involved consensual sex between an underage girl and a man.

Is someone really willing to argue that being beaten bloody and sexually assaulted (rape) is the same thing as willingly engaging in a sex act with someone while too young to legally do so (statutory rape)? I hope not. Words have meaning.

[seabeyond]

38. an OLD man with authority over a CHILD. nt

[seabeyond]

39. i betcha a father could use manipulation, authority over his kids to fuck them, and get them to say,

they want it.

you got that. that happens. manipulating a child. that is why there are laws. i have to wonder about the person that keeps insisting our children should be others prey.

[davidn3600]

46. Kaitlyn Hunt case

18 year old had sex with a 14 year old. Law calls it "rape" but most people don't view it that way.

And notice she was offered two plea deals that avoided jail. Rapists that avoid jail is not totally unusual...especially for women that do it.

[seabeyond]

47. ah you have a real issue talking about a very real girl/woman issue, dontcha? some would say....

[davidn3600]

48. No issue at all...

And there is no issue legally. The law says having sex with a 14 year old is rape. Period. A 14 year old cannot consent whether they want the sexual act to happen or not.

Unfortunately it is not always enforced that way. Many prosecutors and judges will look for ways to mitigate it down to get it off their dockets.

If rape is rape....then that's fine. Let's start enforcing this as rape. My point that I am making is that right now it is not. And what happened in Montana with this case happens more frequently than you realize. It's not one judge that if he resigns then harmony is restored the system. No. This happens all over the country. Many judges do the same thing.

[seabeyond]

49. when you tell me that a true feminist would have empathy with the rapist, ya.....

an issue

[Cerridwen]

55. She killed herself.

Does that make true your argument that "being beaten bloody" is worse than being psychologically brutalized?

Words not only have meaning, many words have multiple meanings depending on the context, i.e., law versus science versus water-cooler, and sometimes those meanings in their respective contexts don't keep up with reality; or with humanity.

[Supersedeas]

56. Eagle Colorado

when the defendant later admits that he understanding that the encounter was not consentual, but still denies that it was rape...and people, like MHP, cheer him for it.

[ismnotwasm]

57. No it isn't

Are there degrees of violence? Yes.

But Rape IS rape and its disingenuous to imply anything else.

[mstinamotorcity2]

44. It is a sad day to lose another child. n/t