Sarasota Mother Shot Her Daughter, 1, Then Turned Gun on Herself

[Robb]

Sarasota police say a mother shot her 1-year-old daughter and then turned the gun on herself.

Police say they responded to the murder-suicide Sunday morning. Spokeswoman Genevieve Judge says 35-year-old Sarah Harnish died at the scene. Josephine Boice, who was 17 months old, was taken to the hospital and later died.

A police statement says the child's father returned home from a scooter ride before 10 a.m. and heard shots fired and called 911.

Read More: http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Sarasota-Mother-Shot-Her-Daughter-1-Then-Turned-Gun-on-Herself-222007011.html

Better health care might be the answer. Improving on wealth disparities might be the answer.

But let me tell you: more guns? Absolutely not the answer.

[PDJane]

1. Yes, that. Precisely that.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. More guns would not have saved this poor baby's life......or her mom's.

Mental health measures might have...

[SunSeeker]

27. Having a gun in the house makes suicide 5 times more likely.

Because easy access to an efficient killing implement makes spur of the moment suicidal thoughts fatal, rather than just bad moments. And all the mental health measures in the world are not going to help you if you blow your head off before your loved ones get you help. If there had not been a gun in the house, the father would more than likely have come home to a sobbing wife, suffering from depression. And he could have gotten her help. The gun prevents loved ones from getting help before it is too late.

[easttexaslefty]

36. Exactly.

[Orrex]

44. In addition...

Suicide-by-gun has a much higher first-time success rate than any other method.


Obviously, the only thing that can help is more guns guns guns!

[Liberal_in_LA]

48. yep

[WCLinolVir]

76. Yes. Maybe she was abused and could see no other options.

[LittleBlue]

3. RIP

to the mother and her poor daughter.

[Lee-Lee]

4. Sad, but had she drowned her daughter instead

Would you be calling for bathtub control?

Making cases like this about guns, when they simply would have used other means, diverts from the real shame here, the sad state of the nations mental health system.

[bunnies]

5. omg.

Id like to know how she could drown her Daughter, then herself in the 2 fucking seconds it took her to do it with a gun. Part of the problem with guns is the immediacy of the effect. Maybe if she'd taken a breath or two... this horror wouldnt have happened. Do you really not see that?

[Lee-Lee]

22. It happens more often than it should

A mentally ill mother who is driven to kill her children will, gun or not. Drowning is all too common.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/minn-woman-drowns-daughters-life-article-1.1305458

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-54976/Mother-drowns-children-bath.html

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mother-drowned-family-back-hudson-river/story?id=13377216

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/woman-drowned-3-kids-tub-2008-cut-settlements-article-1.1397727

All these stories have one thing in common with the OP- the failing of our mental health system. Had these mothers had a gun, maybe they would have used it. Maybe not. Had this woman not had a gun, maybe she would have used drowning.

The method used isn't the cause, attacking it isn't the cure.

[SunSeeker]

32. No, the method available ABSOLUTELY matters. A gun makes suicide 5 times more likely.

It takes quite a bit of effort to purposely drown a child; it is horrific and grizzly. And rare. That is why you had to go back 5 years to get 4 stories. 40,000 people die each year by gun, half of them suicides.

If you take the gun away, people don't just choose another method, they actually tend not to commit suicide. That is because the gun is not there making suicidal thoughts easy to act on.

Having a gun around makes otherwise treatable depression far more fatal.

I am a firm believer in people being able to end their life if there is no hope (terminally ill cancer patients in horrible pain, etc.), but it seems the vast majority of suicides are the tragic result of untreated mental illness or depression. Committing suicide due to mental illness or depression is not a choice--it is the mental illness consuming you. Having a gun in the house makes suicide over 5 times more likely.

http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/more-guns-more-suicides/

And as noted in another DU post, at one point the Israeli Defense Forces changed policy, so that soldiers leave their guns on base rather than bringing them home with them over the weekend. After the change, suicide rates dropped by 40%, mostly attributed to a drop in gun suicides on weekends. In particular, there was no significant change in suicide rates during the week, so it's not the case that the timing of the policy coincided with some other change which made soldiers less suicidal overall. It was a clear case of means reduction.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117295436 (citing http://gsoa.feinheit.ch/media/medialibrary/2010/12/Lubin_10.pdf )

You're 43 times more likely to be killed by your own gun (as Adam Lanza's mother was) than by an intruder's. You are unlikely to have an intruder. But you are very likely to get drunk, get depressed, get in a fight with someone in your house, or have your little kid find your gun. That's how people get killed. Having a gun in the house makes it far more likely that you or your loved one will get their head blown off.

Arthur Kellermann and Donald Reay. "Protection or Peril? An Analysis of Firearm Related Deaths in the Home." (The New England Journal of Medicine, vol. 314, no. 24, June 1986, pp. 1557-60.)

[Ed Suspicious]

37. this is truth

[easttexaslefty]

40. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

So very true. All of it.

[Judi Lynn]

55. I appreciate your post and comments. Thank you. The truth matters. n/t

[The Straight Story]

6. It is never about the person or the act, those things do not matter

It is about using deaths of people for an agenda against the few.

[bunnies]

9. Guns are "the few"?

[The Straight Story]

10. What I mean is simply

over 99% of people who own guns do no harm with them.

But all we see are the stories about the less than 1% who do.

Which promotes biases and stereotypes.

[bunnies]

11. Ah. Now I get it.

doh.

[The Straight Story]

13. No problem, having a pancake on the head causes confusion

[bunnies]

58. Its all that foil I use to keep it warm.

[Loudly]

20. Yes, it's like Russian Roulette which all of us are being forced to play.

[beevul]

109. You aren't being forced to do anything.

Nobody is stopping you from moving to gun control utopias such as Chicago or New Jersey.

[Loudly]

111. Don't mock gun control jurisdictions.

They are the only bodies politic that are taking a stand against "shoot every all "as the frontline tolerance of gun worship settlement of most disputes.

[beevul]

115. Bullshit.

Your response does however, show quite clearly, the courage of your convictions.

[LanternWaste]

102. And a sense of martyrdom too it appears...

"Which promotes biases and stereotypes..."

And a sense of martyrdom too it appears...

[Thor_MN]

35. One estimate says 114 million handguns in the US, so 1% is just over a million to worry about...

[rl6214]

51. With over 44,000 posts you know it's all about the agenda, not the real issues

These posters don't care about the people, they just care about how they can use any event to further push their agenda.

[Mojorabbit]

59. I don't like it either

This poor woman took her child's life and her own. In her mind life must have been hell for her to consider this. I wish the signs that she was troubled had been picked up on and that she had had access to good resources to help her deal with her feelings.
It is a sad story and I feel great compassion for her.
It uspets me to see her death be used to promote an agenda.
I know gun control advocates have their heart in the right place for the most part(and I am a woman who owns a gun) but I have friends had who overdosed on rx meds, ran their car in to a concrete wall, and one who literally drank himself to death. I would never think to use them in this way. Each of them were living in a personal hell. RIP.

[Robb]

7. Bathtub control?

You're really going with "bathtub control"?

[HooptieWagon]

14. More children die by drowning than by gunshot.

So it depends whether your agenda is to protect kids or take away guns.

[LAGC]

17. Robb's agenda is to take away guns.

That's the answer to everything, don'tchaknow?

[madinmaryland]

19. Apparently, your agenda is to infest this country with more guns.

[pintobean]

46. Robb has an agenda?

Huh. I guess that's why he's still posting gun threads in GD. Seems to be about the only one left. There should be a gun control group on DU for such folks.

[Nevernose]

50. I don't know if that's the answer to everything

But it's quite obviously the answer to gun violence.

[Mariana]

38. Please provide evidence for that statement

that more children die by drowning than by gunshot. It's not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to see the actual numbers. Thank you.

[Nevernose]

45. NPR did a story on that a few years ago

It might have been in the freakonomics portion of Marketplace; I can't remember.

Anyway, the simple premise was this: the federal government spends about a million dollars a year on warning parents about the dangers of children accidentally drowning in the bathtub, and that doesn't include the money spent by state and local agencies. However, the national average for children accidentally drowning in the bathtub is nine per year, nationwide.

I'm not really arguing anything; I just thought it was an interesting statistic.

[rl6214]

52. You know the agenda is to take away the evil guns, not child safety

[alphafemale]

57. ...AND if a parent lets their child DROWN in a TUB?

Thy\ey will be charged with Negligent Homicide and rightly so.

Kid in a house gets a hold of an unsecured gun and blows off their face and half their skull...or a hole in their sisters chest?

Unfortunate, unpreventable accident. No charges will be filed.

BULLSHIT!

I am not opposed to guns, grew up respecting them....but this lame brain paranoid notion that a loaded gun needs to be at hand at ALL TIMES. That is simply insane.

Costs way more lives than it saves.

We read about a kid shooting his or herself or a family member...nearly...every...single...fucking...day.

We read about a person holding off an intruder with a gun....ehhh? Couple times a year? Tops?
And sometimes that is with a shotgun.

Does that even count?

[The Straight Story]

16. well, we could have better drains and such. And who NEEDS tubs, we have showers

Outlawing tubs and mandating only showers be installed could save lives.

Why would anyone be against this if it saves the lives of kids - and don't get me started on pools - did you know the same percent of pool owners have accidental drownings and such as gun owners and accidents with guns? Now who needs a pool? People want them and year after year people get injured and die in them.

All pool owners are nuts, we call em pool humpers....

[madinmaryland]

18. I see you have attracted the folks who want to continue infesting this country with more guns.

[beevul]

110. Only to those that want to eliminate gun ownership...

Only to those that want to eliminate gun ownership, is allowing law abiding people freedom of choice whether to own a gun "infesting this country with more guns".

[alittlelark]

12. OMG - Great way to miss the point!

Yes, our mental health system is a complete joke, but our gun control problems are MUCH worse.

[Hekate]

15. Fail. Bathtub drownings: 72. Gunshot victims: 2,793

Sorry for not getting the years for the data to match up, but I am sure you can get the point. If you want to.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/consumerawareness/a/homedrowning.htm
An average of about 240 children under 5 years old drown in swimming pools nationwide each year. But CPSC also has reports of about 110 children under 5 who have drowned in other products in and around the home each year. These products include bathtubs, hot tubs, spas, buckets and other containers.
More children drown in bathtubs than in any other product in the home. In 2001 (the most recent year of complete data), CPSC reported 72 children under 5 who drowned in bathtubs, and more than half were under 1 year old.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/11/guns-child-deaths-more-than-cancer/2073259/
In 2010, 15,576 children and teenagers were injured by firearms — three times more than the number of U.S. soldiers injured in the war in Afghanistan, according to the defense fund.
Nationally, guns still kill twice as many children and young people than cancer, five times as many than heart disease and 15 times more than infection, according to the New England Journal of Medicine.


http://www.childrensdefense.org/child-research-data-publications/data/protect-children-not-guns-2012.pdf
5,740 children and teens died from gunfire in the United States in 2008 and 2009.
• 2,947 children and teens were killed by guns in 2008; another 2,793 were killed in 2009.
Two-thirds were victims of homicide (3,892), one-quarter were suicide (1,548), and five percent were accidental or unknown (300) gun deaths. Black children and teens were only
15 percent of the child population but were 45 percent of the total fatal gun deaths in 2008
and 2009.

[Lee-Lee]

23. Ahh yes, could you get more dishonest than using one number that is only kids under 5 and...

comparing it to another total that is up to the age of 19.

Talk about a dishonest and blatantly biased comparison.

[HooptieWagon]

24. Fail.

You only include kids under 5 for drownings, yet had to include all kids to inflate gunshot deaths. Such dishonesty is the only way you can make your case? It must be VERY weak.

[SunSeeker]

26. Most kids who drown ARE under 5; taking the age up to 19 won't change the statistics all that much.

http://healthland.time.com/2012/05/17/children-under-age-4-are-at-highest-risk-for-drowning/

[HooptieWagon]

29. Limit the gunshot deaths to under 5, since that age ramge of child in OP.

[SunSeeker]

34. That would skew the comparison, since most kids who are shot are over 5.

For example, the 48 gunshot victims Vanderbilt Children’s Hospital treated 1997 through 2001 ranged in age from 4 through 15.9.
http://www.mc.vanderbilt.edu/vumcpub/?pubID=7&articleID=192

[HooptieWagon]

41. So you want to skew it favorable to your agenda.

Wow, do you work for FOX?

[SunSeeker]

49. You're projecting. nt

[Eleanors38]

66. 416 kids aged 0-14 were killed by guns in the U.S.

As determined by a 2002 National Safety Council report. And that includes non-accidental shootings. The term "youth" can scoop up the few thousand often cited. The includes the "emancipated" young men and women who are 18 & 19 yoa, and those who can drive, 16+.

I'm generous with my definition of kids or even "children" and will give you 15 yoa, but you still can't get a few thosand with that addition.

[SunSeeker]

72. How many kids 14 to 17 are killed by guns each year?

Taking that rather high risk age segment out of your stats is quite skewing. Got a link for that 2002 figure?

Unfortunately, thanks to NRA lobbying that banned this sort of surveying by the federal government, there is a dearth of stats on the subject of gun deaths/ injuries.

[Eleanors38]

78. Problem is, I don't consider them "kids" above age 16

I don't think the NRA "banned" collection of data by the government, and certainly by any other institution.

Google up NSC childhood gun deaths and you will get the U. Michigan (no ally of "gun enthusiasts&quot site for a breakdown. Some of the NSC data is digested by gun sites & RW sites below the UM site; by now it should be no surprise that MSM is loath to report these data.

If I remember correctly, the accidental deaths by guns for Children age 0-14 is below 300/yr. That rate has fallen faster and is below that of a number of other named causes over the last 15+ yrs.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

79. for 2010...

...accidental firearm deaths for ages 0 - 14 = 62. All accidental firearm deaths for 2010 = 606.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_04.pdf

[SunSeeker]

84. The death rate for gun suicides in 2010 increased 3.4% from 2009.

See page 17 of your link. Suicides made up 61.2% of the 31, 672 gun deaths in 2010.

Not sure why you and the person you are replying to bring up accidental deaths, particularly since the OP did not discuss an accidental death but a murder/suicide.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

90. re: "Not sure why you..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023578258#post4

I infer that the events of the OP are under discussion because people have a problem with death. I'll conjecture here that fewer deaths would be accepted as a good thing by most folks, myself included. The deaths of infants, children and youths get more attention in this regard because of the greater number of years lost when a death occurs. My conclusion here is that if you honestly want to improve the lives of the greatest number of people, you'll target accidents.

Imagine the lives that would be saved if new homes were built with showers only and no bathtubs. (Bathtubs could be available to those with medical needs and covered by insurance.) Those showers could be mandated by law to have high traction surfaces to minimize slips and falls. Pools could be required to be properly fenced with a single self-closing gate and various safety features. Before you can have a pool installed or take possession of a home so equipped, you should have to pass a safety course. Imagine if the only number you could dial or answer with a moving cell phone was 911. Imagine if moving cell phones just couldn't send or receive text messages.

Sure it's valid to mandate firearm safety. UBCs might be a good idea provided the system is protected from abuse.

Suicidal folks should have their problems addressed and their families should have support and help available. We already have laws against selling guns to folks with adjudicated mental problems.

This quote:

"Better health care might be the answer. Improving on wealth disparities might be the answer.

But let me tell you: more guns? Absolutely not the answer."

Health care should be improved by government. The extremely uneven growth in wages between the 1%ers and minimum wage should absolutely be addressed.

Implying that there are laws in place that encourage firearm purchases is just the OP author's useless snark and BS.

[SunSeeker]

97. I was asking why you were talking about accidental GUN deaths...

...when the OP was about a gun murder and a gun suicide, the two gun death categories that comprise the vast majority of gun deaths.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

103. The member to whom I replied said...

..."If I remember correctly, the accidental deaths by guns for Children age 0-14 is below 300/yr."

I was confirming his statement.

As long as we're talking about accidents, the 0 - 14 group is in a lot more danger from accidental drowning than accidental shooting.
Please note my post #71: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023578258#post71

The parties at the extremes in this issue (the NRA and the VPC for example) are taking positions which tend to serve their own agendas rather than benefit society in making actual progress.

[SunSeeker]

81. You've got quite a "problem," especially if you try dating one of those 17 year old "adults."

If you stop calling 15-18 yr olds kids, that will bring down the number of kids shot. But in the legal and real world, 15, 16 and 17 year olds are kids. And that age group of kids make up the majority of children shot. As your Michigan U article notes (and again, it is over 10 years old since the NRA killed research about gun violence in the late 1990s), in 1999, the stats for childhood gun deaths were as follows:

3,385 children and youth ages 0-19 years were killed with a gun. This includes homicides, suicides, and unintentional injuries.
This is equivalent to about 9 deaths per day, a figure commonly used by journalists.
The 3,385 firearms-related deaths for age group 0-19 years breaks down to:
214 unintentional
1,078 suicides
1,990 homicides
83 for which the intent could not be determined
20 due to legal intervention

Of the total firearms-related deaths:
73 were of children under five years old
416 were children 5-14 years old
2,896 were 15-19 years old
http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm

The child gun suicide statistic is very real to me. I knew a girl in back in high school who shot herself in her bedroom with her family's gun. High Schoolers often can't see past tomorrow, and a breakup with a boyfriend can be deadly when the means to act on a suicidal thought is readily available.

And yes, the NRA has killed CDC gun violence research. http://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-nra-kills-gun-violence-research-2013-1

[Eleanors38]

89. I'll keep that in mind if I decide to date a 17 yo

The distinction I made was based on independence and mobility due to auto licensing, not on legal age for sexual intercourse, hence the reference to "youth," a term bandied about well into the twenty + categories.. I recall the NSC referencing something about figures the newsmedia likes to use -- not a ringing endorsement. I would point out also that when some of those "kids" are brought to trial for murder, it is often as adults.

Since you brought up the NRA ban in Fed "research," what is the relevance? Most if the "research" was indeed aimed at funding of anti-gun studies which supported the social construct of a public health problem. (You should note the CDC study a few yrs back whuch concluded gun "interventionist strategies" could not be shown to have an effect on the goals they purported to have, including Lott's contention that more guns = less crime.

Has the NRA stopped the collection of death rates and causes? Have institutions been prevented? Has the NSC been stopped. This discussion started with stats which are still collected, and a strained definition of "children." And it appears the accidental death rate for 0 - 14 is even lower than I thought.

The best way to lower firearms death rate for ALL ages and ALL methods is with safe home storage; youths on the street who muder should be imprisoned like adults: For a very long time. Such improved "safe storage" should, however, not constitute "D.C. Lite" measures which brought on the Heller decision.

[SunSeeker]

98. The vast majority of gun deaths are suicides. "Safe storage" will not prevent that.

Education and universal background checks will. But the NRA Iis fighting both, as are the gungeoneers, spreading false information that suicidal people will still kill themselves at the same rate whether they have guns or not.

[Eleanors38]

100. Actually, I was agreeing with you til that last part...

We do need UBG and education, and the NRA is stupid-ass in opposing at least the former.

But you are spreading false info by saying the "gungeoneers" are of the same mind. Almost all of us support some kind of.campaign (as outlined earlier) for safe gun storage, and the big majority of us support some kind of universal B.G. check.

This is where sincere folks on all sides can come together.

As for suicide, I don't know. There is a lot of speculation. I'm impressed that the Japanese, with very high suicide rates and nearly nil gun ownership in the law-abiding population, seem to choose tall buildings, a fast & sure method.

[SunSeeker]

104. Are you suggesting people will just jump off buildings if they don't have guns?

If so, that is exactly the sort of false information I am talking about. As I said up the thread, in at least one well-documented instance, taking the gun out of the home reduced suicide rates by 40%. People will not just choose another method. They will tend to not commit suicide at all. Letting people know about that fact is the sort of education I am talking about. People genuinely do not know that a gun is far more likely lead to your death than save you from it. We need PSAs to that effect, paid for by a tax on guns.

[Eleanors38]

108. There WILL be no taxes on guns for that.

[hack89]

101. I support education and universal background checks

I even support safe storage laws. I just view suicide as a mental health issue first - gun control laws like universal background checks will not significantly impact suicides. The solution is single payer health care.

[SunSeeker]

105. So you support PSAs that say you are far more likely to be killed by your own gun than saved by it?

Because that is the sort of education I am talking about.

[hack89]

106. It doesn't bother me

as long as people are still left with the choice to buy a gun.

Whoever writes the PSAs better make certain that their facts are correct, however. There are a lot "studies" on both sides of the gun safety issue that are nothing more than propaganda - PSAs peddling "facts" that are demonstratively wrong will ignite a firestorm and do more harm than good.

[SunSeeker]

107. Cool.

[Lizzie Poppet]

85. None. Those aren't "kids."

[SunSeeker]

99. You do realize how creepy it is to say a 14 year old is not a "kid," right?

A 14 year old is a child physically, mentally and legally. Shooting him does not turn him into an adult.

[HardTimes99]

47. Bra-fucking-Vo! (Now I understand better why you take such umbrage

at false equivalences

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

71. Apples to apples

For 2010: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_04.pdf
See table 10 pages 90 and 91.

Accidental firearm discharge (ages 0 - 4): 25
Assault (homicide) by discharge of firearms (ages 0 - 4): 54

Accidental drowning and submersion ages 0 - 4: 475

Totals:
Firearm deaths (ages 0 - 4): 79
Drownings (ages 0 - 4): 475

Let me point out that those drownings are the accidental cases only. Deaths involving deliberate drowning are grouped in with "Assault (homicide) by other and unspecified means and their sequelae" which (for ages 0 - 4): 642


The big picture:
Accidental deaths (for ages 0 - 4) excluding firearms: 2479
Homicide deaths (for ages 0 - 4) excluding firearms: 642

Total of those (for ages 0 - 4): 3121

Total deaths involving firearms (for ages 0 - 4): 79

One in four households in the US have one or more firearms.


Finally, the firearm death rate (all ages) for Washington DC for a 22 month period during 2005 and 2006 exceeded the firearm death rate for US soldiers in Baghdad.

Statistics and accurate comparisons thereof go beyond a google news dump.

[bluestate10]

70. I agree with you. The woman may have been in deep depression. She would have used

other means had guns not been available.

[avebury]

8. Yet another incident of gun ownership working

out so well.

[seabeyond]

21. how about if i feel horrible for the father that walked into that home.... nt

[SunSeeker]

25. I bet he bought that gun to "protect" his family, believing the gun mfrs' propaganda.

Of course, the reality is you're 43 times more likely to be killed by your own gun than that of an intruder.

[seabeyond]

31. i guess me feeling bad for the father is not good enough.... i will stick with that. nt

[WCLinolVir]

77. Maybe he bought it to terrorize the wife.

[snooper2]

73. welcome back, summer vacation is over

Time to do 20 MPH and get off the cellphone again

[seabeyond]

74. ha ha. lol. so true. and

thanks

[B Calm]

28. He heard the shots fired. I bet the police in any other state

would consider him a suspect.

[RetroLounge]

30. If only the baby was armed too.

RL

[rl6214]

53. And only the anti gun nuts say something like this

[RetroLounge]

61. Does that make you sad? Do you haz a sad?

Poor, poor, you.



RL

[rl6214]

62. Does this make you more juvenile?

Last edited Mon Sep 2, 2013, 11:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Sure seems like it the more you post.

"Do you haz a sad"?

Really?

[RetroLounge]

63. "Favorite group: Gun Control & RKBA,"

Color me surprised...

sad gungeoneer...



RL

[rl6214]

64. 74% of posts in GD

Kinda shoots your "gungeoneer" comment out of the water dosent it.

[RetroLounge]

83. Forum vs Group

Try some reading skillz



RL

[rl6214]

96. Number of posts

Try some analysis skills

[RetroLounge]

116. Reading problems?

Must be all that gunfire all around you.



RL

[pintobean]

65. What's your favorite group, RL?

[RetroLounge]

82. You might have a point

but no one's found it yet.

NA

RL

[raging moderate]

33. Could we compromise on requiring guns to be kept unloaded, apart, and locked in separate places?

That is how my husband, a US Army veteran, handles his guns. I well remember, many years ago, the moment when I woke at 3 am to hear him slamming one gun together with military efficiency. He later told me he had just complained to a house of young toughs that their music was too loud, and for a moment they had seemed about to advance on our house.

[raging moderate]

42. I think gun owners could exercise some common-sense policing of their own ranks.

It really doesn't take long to get the gun out, if you are well-trained and well-practiced, does it?
Maybe you could acknowledge the need to prevent these tragedies, and work to do it. After all, Christmas trees used to causee many deaths every year, until we almost all turned to safer lights. We absolutely needed to stop doing the things that caused these needless tragedies. We didn't have to give up our Christmas trees , just learn to set them up responsibly. Surely there are ways to reduce these gun tragedies.

[hack89]

60. That exact issue is what Heller was about.

so the answer is no, you cannot pass a law that requires guns be kept unloaded, apart, and locked in separate places. It is a damn good idea but you cannot mandate it.

[Eleanors38]

93. Actually, better home storage of guns should be promoted...

The reduction in smoking rates was due primarily to public, coordinated campaigns, not prohibitiinist legal measures. The same can be done with regards safe gun storage. (This is done now to some degree as child accidental gun death rates have fallen steadily, even as the number of guns in the country has increased.)

It's something gun manufacturers, acessorizers, organizations, retailers should better promote. My biggest concern is how to reach the tens of millions of gun-owners and future gun-owners out there. Oh, there is plenty of media -- a media which has demonstrated an unstinting hostility to both gun ownership and dissemination of Anything it considers as promoting legitimate gun ownership.

Progress in gun safety can be made without legislation (what are the practical odds, anyway?). It's been done before.

[Swede Atlanta]

39. The NRA and right have lost their minds.....

They firmly believe that more guns in our society will make us safer. What kind of logic is that? It is total nonsense.

If you look at societies that have little to no violent crime, especially murder, you find societies with little to no history of gun ownership or where ownership and availability are severely restricted.

I am not opposed to individuals owning firearms for legitimate self-defense (not George the coward Zimmerman), sport (i.e. marksmanship, etc.) and hunting (subject to license and need).

But some sectors of our society believe that guns make their penises and clitorises appear bigger, enhance their sexual performance and make them "real" men and women.

Bullshit on that. It only reveals cowardice and ignorance.

[Eleanors38]

94. WOW! "Penises and Clitorises appear bigger!" A first

I believe in spreading a gun slur around equally!

I thank you Swede, this made my day.

[NBachers]

43. As another gun salesman earns his horns . . .

[Eleanors38]

54. This is local news, Mods. Yet it is here. 2 other groups handle this.

[The Straight Story]

56. Yeah, but this is the anti-choice view, which is approved of so it will stay

We could post about 45 millions stories a day about people who didn't use their guns in such a manner - but it is hard to build up bias and hate (and fear of course) that way.

[Eleanors38]

67. And despite what someone named "Skinner" says?

[The Straight Story]

68. Skinner seemed pretty clear

If it shows guns in a negative light, it stays. If it does not, it goes.

His board, his rules.

[bluestate10]

69. This OP raises a question in my mind about depression that some women experience after

giving childbirth. I doubt that anything would have prevented the woman from killing herself and her child. Having guns in the home made the killing easier.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

75. Note: Here in Florida, they made it ILLEGAL for a doctor to ask if there were any guns in the house

Which is done specifically for situations such as these.

Why did the Florida Legislature pass such an inane law?

Because the vile slug that is NRA chief lobbyist Marion Hammer wrote it for them, of course.

Here she is delivering the bill to our esteemed Medicare fraud of a Governor. It's literally gift-wrapped in a bow:



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-11/pistol-packing-grandma-helps-nra-push-state-pro-gun-laws.html

Apparently, she wrote the law because she was upset her granddaughter was asked by a pediatrician whether there were any guns in her house. Wonder what she has to say about stories like these?

[pintobean]

80. You think a doctor

would discuss guns in the home with a one year old?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

86. A doctor ought to discuss it with the one year old's parents.

Which is what that abomination of the law attempted to prohibit.

[aikoaiko]

92. The doctor could always still discuss it with the parent or patient.

Even if a patient or parent didn't have a gun at the time, don't you think the doctor should still talk about gun safety if its so important to him or her.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

113. When there's a gun actually in the house, it's all the more real of a situation.

They can inquire about everything else about a patient, given that it's a privileged relationship. Why are guns so different?

[aikoaiko]

114. I don't think guns should be different, but...

... some doctors discriminate against gun owners -- even those who don't want to talk about guns in the house.

[aikoaiko]

87. Wrong. the law was written because a doctor denied ongoing service to a parent who

didnt want to answer that question.

Nice revisionist history.

I didn't like the law, but I didn't like the doctor's irresponsible behavior either.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

88. From the article:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-11/pistol-packing-grandma-helps-nra-push-state-pro-gun-laws.html

"Most recently, Florida lawmakers restricted doctors from asking about guns in the home after the silver-haired Hammer complained that a Tallahassee pediatrician questioned her granddaughter."

The law got written by Marion Hammer because Marion Hammer's feelings got hurt.

That tells you all you need to know about the NRA's grip on politicians in my state.

[aikoaiko]

91. An unattributed assertion from anti-gun Bloomberg press.

Here is some actual news reporting instead of the revisionist screed you embrace. Hammer was involved in the legislation and maybe her granddaughter was asked about guns in the home, but the event that started this unfortunate legislation was a doctor's refusal to accept that people like to keep some aspect of their lives private.

http://www.amednews.com/article/20110131/government/301319963/4/

Physicians and Florida gun ownership advocates are battling over a state bill that would fine and imprison physicians who ask if their patients have guns.

State Rep. Jason Brodeur, a Republican, introduced the bill, which could send doctors to jail for up to five years and fine them up to $5 million for asking about patients' gun ownership, refusing to treat patients who won't answer such questions or entering gun ownership information into any record. The bill has the support of the National Rifle Assn. State Sen. Greg Evers, also a Republican, introduced an identical bill in the state Senate.
...
The Florida bill was prompted in part by a July 2010 exchange between Ocala, Fla., pediatrician Chris Okonkwo, MD, and the 26-year-old mother of a 4-month-old patient. Dr. Okonkwo asked the mother if she owned a gun, but she refused to answer. For that reason, the physician gave her 30 days to find a new pediatrician, according to the Ocala Star-Banner. Dr. Okonkwo declined to speak to American Medical News for this article.

Here is another piece on the well-documented event that started the legislation response (albeit wrong).

http://www.ocala.com/article/20100723/NEWS/100729867

When the 26-year-old Summerfield woman refused the answer, the Ocala doctor finished her child's examination and told her she had 30 days to find a new pediatrician and that she wasn't welcome at Children's Health of Ocala anymore.

“Whether I have a gun has nothing to do with the health of my child,” said the mother of three girls.

The question about the gun had been the last in a series of health questions about Ullmon's 4-month old baby that Dr. Chris Okonkwo had been asking.

“And I'm upset because my children were discharged because I refused to answer the question whether I have a gun… in the house. It's a very invasive and a very personal question,” said Ullman, who works as a property manager.

Maybe Ullman is Hammer's granddaughter.

[Eleanors38]

95. Nothing in that legislation keeps a doc from handing out

info about safety/medical concerns regarding guns.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

112. Got any more comments on the liberal media, Mr. Limbaugh?

Thankfully, it appears the courts have put the kibash on the horrid law:

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2011/09/14/judge-overturns-docs-and-glocks-law/

However, this doesn't excuse the greater point (to which you refuse to address) the disturbing fact that we have gun lobbyists writing bills and literally delivering them to the governor's office for signature.

And that this horrid law was even enforced in the first place is inexcusable.

This is classic NRA and gun lobby M.O. here in Florida: intimidation. The bills they write and have passed all wrench of threats and extortion against ordinary professionals who simply seek to do their jobs.

Take for example the bill that passed the Florida legislature that actually threatens criminal charges against government officials who seek to investigate environmental concerns at gun ranges:

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/state-legislation/2004/4/florida-legislature-passes-sb-1156.aspx?s=&st=10473&ps=

Or the law that threatens to fine and remove from office any local government officials who seek to enact local gun restrictions, including gun access in public government buildings:

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2011-08-06/news/fl-guns-laws-south-florida-20110806_1_gun-laws-firearm-regulations-local-gun-rules

This is thuggish behavior worthy of the mafia.

Whatever. The NRA is your problem as a vocal gun enthusiast. You own them. They are the albatross around your neck. Try to disassociate yourself from them at the end of the day, but you own them.