Innocent people are going to keep dying

[Bonobo]

In Pakistan, in Yemen, in Afghanistan.

What is your argument against steps being taken by the international community to stop these senseless deaths of innocents -deaths that we are 100% certain will continue with no foreseeable end.

How can people of conscience condemn future innocent civilians to die horrible deaths?

[joshcryer]

1. What do you have against democracies?

In truth Pakistan, Yemen, and Afghanistan have not asked for the international community to intervene.

[Bonobo]

3. That's not true.

They have asked the US to stop drone attacks.

But even if they had, it doesn't change a damned thing.

You cannot claim to care about stopping the deaths of innocents ONLY when their leadership says they care. Is that really a morally reasonable position? No, it's not.

[joshcryer]

4. The US is the "international community"?

They have condemned US drone attacks while at the same time allowing the US to launch drones over their territory. Pakistani politicians even want to shoot the drones down since they're not exactly invisible.

I fully care about the innocents in the drone war and I condemn the drone war completely, as it is immoral. I simply understand who is culpable in the drone war and it is not simply one party. If American's can't end the drone war because of their bloodlust, then the countries in which it is taking place must be more proactive at ending it.

[MindMover]

5. Immorality is sending an eight year old strapped with explosives into a ....

marketplace and blowing up 23 innocent people ... to get the bastard that strapped those explosives on, I will take a drone any day ...

Pakistan Army jets bomb these places all the time and they're more likely to kill/hurt innocent civilians and I've never seen anyone complaining. (Remember when Jets killed over 70 civilians in Swat?)

Since we know Drones fly/attack with the Pakistani Army's consent, why feel outraged? They're more effective in killing the actual enemies of Pakistan and those Arabs/Chechens/Afghans who are actually violating sovereignty.

I don't understand why People are so sympathetic towards the very people that claim to have killed Pakistani civilians in the thousands and raving about Drones that do more good than harm.

[joshcryer]

11. 1/3 people killed by drones are civilians.

Therefore I think they are being used too willfully and without regard to human life.

If it was 1/10 you might be convincing, but as it stands now, I find them immoral because they remove the actor from the action and they sit drinking coffee not considering the willful murder in which they're partaking.

If we were a truly moral people we'd send in strike teams to take the actors alive, each and every time, and submit them to a trial.

[MindMover]

12. OMG, now I understand that you have never seen an enemy through ..

your gun sights .... submit them to a trial ....

And wherever you get your figures, please link credible evidence to the 1/3 statement ....

[joshcryer]

14. Sure:

http://my.firedoglake.com/derrickcrowe/2010/03/06/one-in-three-killed-by-drones-in-pakistan-is-a-civilian/

Pakistan should be the one arresting the terrorists that live in their country, not us. We should at most give them material aid and training, but they should be doing all the arresting. Instead they leave it to us to blow up their terrorists.

[MindMover]

16. When reading all the way to the end of the article .... one reads the following

"Incredibly, after this litany of negatives, the report’s authors conclude that drone strikes are "a critical tool." Their conclusion doesn’t seem to follow from their premises. What they seem to mean instead is that "we’re all out of other ideas."

[joshcryer]

17. I make no statement as to their use as a tool.

I simply think they are immoral.

[MindMover]

20. There are lots of definitions of morality or immorality .... and

many have offered there own definition ... including Aristotle ...

I see that your definition is considered due to death by drone in war ...

I think I have already stated that any war is immoral ....

[joshcryer]

21. I'm pretty sure mine was unnecessary deaths...

...due to willful murder.

[MindMover]

23. Ok, we agree that war is state licensed killing ....

The unnecessary part is your word ... in every war there are deaths not directly related to the war ...

So your assessment of what should be done is that we let the Pakistanis take care of there own business ... another hands off approach to world events ... therefore the unnecessary word comes into your argument ...

Let us take a vote from the Syrians about what they want to happen next .... oh wait, they are dying unnecessarily so fast that we are having a difficult time finding any ....

[joshcryer]

28. I did not say hands off.

We can be hands on by training and material assistance. If we intercept some guys moving some high explosives, rather than using a drone to hit them, we tell Pakistan that there are some guys moving some high explosives, and then Pakistan deals with it.

[quaker bill]

34. Interesting concept

but you do understand that there is a good slice of Pakistan where "Pakistan" does not go, or if they do go, don't survive?

This was true before all the wars and still is. "Pakistan" deals with nothing there, except on very rare occasions by deadly force.

[JI7]

33. they put a target on themselves if they do it, it's easier

to let the drones do it and act like they oppose it and have nothing to do with it.

assasinations are a common thing in that part of the world.

[HardTimes99]

15. Josh, MindMover only wants drones that kill

terrorists disguised as children, not actual children. How dare you cast asparagus at his motives?

<---Poe's Law

[MindMover]

18. Misrepresentation of anything I have said here on DU ...

You have officially become my first ignore ...

[Dragonfli]

27. Can I be your second MissileMover? /nt

[MindMover]

2. According to Grayson and many others on this site ...

We are not the world's policeman ....

Unfortunately, the simplicity of this argument has been used before with unbelievably horrible consequences ....

I will keep saying that this moral crisis reminds me of a time in history when the major powers of there day watched Hitler take over Czechoslovakia and said he was really a nice guy ...

[David__77]

6. It is more like the moral crisis of 1964 (Gulf of Tonkin).

...

[dionysus]

7. so assad ius a poor maligned guy?

[David__77]

8. You think the N. Vietnamese were "poor maligned?"

Perhaps you make the wrong assumption. The N. Vietnamese conducted many violations of human rights.

[MindMover]

10. I am not sure what your point is about ...

Last edited Tue Sep 3, 2013, 01:58 AM - Edit history (1)

but every country that engages in war conducts violations of human rights .... ie: My Lai

[MindMover]

9. You are pointing out an obvious false flag ....

I do not think that 100,000 deaths and gassing civilians is a false flag ....

And if you think that about our government then you better be out on the streets picketing ....

[adirondacker]

13. I have a good friend that returned from Tunisia a few weeks back...

His take on the Middle East is that it is a demographic conundrum. They have a boomer generation that are well educated and have reliable, and frequently, excellent health care. The unfortunate aspect is that they have large populations with little or no work available.

Basically, if they had the education, health care, and planned parenting(ie contraception) sooner, most countries would be in much better shape to "progress".

The people he has met and become friends with, are the nicest, caring, and giving folks one would want to meet when traveling. He never felt unsafe with them (except riding as a passenger on motorcycles at high rates of speed and no helmet).

The whole situation is sad and frustrating to see.

[Bluenorthwest]

35. Tunisia is not part of the Middle East, it is a North African Country.

It is a Muslim country, but not in the Middle East. It is also a Constitutional republic while most of the actual Middle East is comprised of monarchies.

[adirondacker]

36. Yes, I should have used Muslim countries involved in the Arab Spring.

Although, I can see certain distinct differences in cultures, I think they share similar demographics to several ME countries in turmoil, and the solutions are not easy. Tunisia has fairly strong ties to European countries due to tourism, but are still having trouble resolving their political and financial problems. I was merely attempting to pass along information from a trustworthy observer that may be worth pondering.

[pacalo]

19. Bombing the hell out of a country because its citizens are being abused isn't the answer.

But the military-industrial complex is hoping to pull some heart strings to make it happen.

If they wanted to get rid of a tyrant, there are ways to do that without destroying everyone else's lives. They showed it could be done with Bin Laden -- & he was hiding.

The MIC wants perpetual war. This is what Eisenhower warned us about.

[MindMover]

22. There are many more factors in this discussion other than innocents being murdered ...

And yes, sarin gas and virtually every country in the world signing on to a treaty condemning any use of gas is another factor ...

There are many other issues related to this region ....

I do not want perpetual war ... but I also do not believe the guy who said we will have "peace in our time" .... as he was murdering his countries citizens and taking over other countries ...

[pacalo]

24. I'm seeing the same logic of striking a country, killing more citizens to make a point

to a dictator as:

-- the U.S. being willing to spend billions & billions on NSA facilities to spy on its own citizens, while the we-don't-have-the-money federal & state budgets are being slashed to the detriment of those who desperately need more, not less;

-- the government claiming that the over-reaching spy program is to "protect" its citizens from "terrorists". After the continuous threats to cut social security (our money), Medicare, Medicaid, & programs for the poor/disabled, I don't get the feeling their number one priority is to "protect" us.

We've been told repeatedly how the budget desperately needed to be cut & how the cuts were directed at only those who could afford cuts the least. When I hear that there is a drumbeat for another costly war, after hearing about the billions for the NSA, I have to recognize that their priorities are insulting.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

25. Why do you think I call for a cease fire? Including us.

[tblue]

26. No one is saying "Do nothing."

Arrest Assad and put him on trial in The Hague, like Mileosevic.

[The Straight Story]

31. And how does one do that? Just call 9/11, have the cops drive over

and he just says "Okey Dokey, take me away!"

The guy won't give up, which is why he used chemical weapons. He has a good thing going there for himself and his buddies and won't leave power if we just ask him to nicely.

[tblue]

32. Like this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023610231

There is NO NEED for starting a bombing campaign at this point. Maybe there will be one later, but we need to stop the global vigilantism abd threats of same and follow the rule of law,like a civilized nation is supposed to.

[B Calm]

29. Why cant the US just kill Bashar al-Assad?

[NuclearDem]

37. Because assassinating a foreign head of state is illegal.

And, in fact, is one of many policies which helped create the clusterfuck that is the Middle East as we know it.

[B Calm]

38. But, it's okay to kill Innocent citizens that happen to get in the way of a good bombing.

Somehow that doesn't seem right to me!

[NuclearDem]

39. No, it's not.

But it is specifically illegal under US law to assassinate foreign heads of state.

Which is why we can't militarily intervene in Syria, period.

[sendero]

30. Sure..

.... let's "rescue" Syria like we did Iraq, depending on who you believe, 100,000 to 500,000 innocents killed FOR WHAT?

It sad that so many people cannot see that there is not an American military solution to every problem.