When Our Neighbors Wish Us Dead or Broke, We're in Trouble with More Than Our Health Care System

[xchrom]

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/09/03



His eyes were clear and his stare intense as one young man who stopped at our booth at the Colorado State Fair argued with me about whether or not health care is a right or a privilege in this country. Actually, he wasn't arguing with as much as he was lecturing me. He fired questions at me as fast as he could and then didn't wait for me to respond before shrugging his shoulders and gritting his teeth.

His questions were all the typical ones that many of us who try to educate around the issue of an improved and expanded Medicare for all for life system hear over and over again. "How will you pay for it? Why should someone who doesn't work as hard as I have get the same health care that I do? Hasn't Communism been tried already and failed? " This young man also told me he works for the Federal prison system and he knows what he is talking about. He sees lazy people whose loved ones are in prison sit on welfare, he said, and then these lazy people load their welfare dollars on their inmate's prison spending accounts. Those welfare dollars, he continued, that he has paid for with his hard work and taxes, then go to buy candy bars and other junk food for the inmates. He then said he doesn't think giving people the same health care benefits that he has had to work so hard to provide for his family is fair.

Finally, I got in a question. "What do you think is right to do then? When someone gets sick or hurt and lacks insurance or cash to pay for care, should they just die?" He didn't answer in words, just shrugged his shoulders again and smiled.

The conversation haunts me. Not only was I lectured to about the conditions in society that one public servant feels so strongly about that he would berate a volunteer organizer for health care justice, but I also heard and saw very clearly that if this man had his way, people like me and my husband would indeed just go broke and/or die when the insurance premiums and other out-of-pocket costs got too high for us to pay. I have heard that before, so that wasn't the haunting for me. It was the internalizing later of the knowledge that there are people in my own family who feel the same way. There are neighbors on my block too who just think people "like me" are expendable. I could argue from now until forever that I have worked hard since I was 12 years old and babysitting four or five nights a week, and worked through my husband's open heart surgeries, slept in my car to be near him in the hospital, worked while sick with cancer so I could keep our benefits paid, put up with abusive bosses and discrimination and worse just to stay financially afloat, and it wouldn't matter. It hurts to my core today, this Labor Day.

[Puglover]

1. I don't know what it is.

No soul? But yeah, people like this abound. It is chilling.

[Triana]

18. I'm related to some of them. Have relatives who literally BRAG that...

....they're taking social security away from their children. While said relatives are LIVING on social security and SSI themselves. Their answer? "Well, WE NEED it!" (What. And everyone ELSE who also paid into the system DOESN'T NEED it?)

One of them has a kid who works at Wal-Mart as a manager. As a MANAGER, he gets a decent salary and benefits, unlike checkers, greeters, stockers and the like at Wally World. Thus, said relative claims that all those "lies" that Wal-Mart doesn't pay workers enough and abuses them just. isn't. true!

That's the psychopathic STUPID I deal with in my own family.

The goddamned inmates are running the asylum here.

[Jackpine Radical]

31. We had damn well better figure out "what it is."

This attitude has spread like a particularly nasty disease since Reagan. If we don't reshape our basic values and soon, this strain of psychopathic narcissism will be the death of us all. And I mean this quite literally.

[Hubert Flottz]

36. It's the same attitude the pre-WWII german population had.

An attitude that allowed the killing of the old and the sick, the insane and then the Social Democrats and calling it "mercy killings." Soon that factory type killing escalated to the full blown "Final Solution."

[warrant46]

78. Its Ayn Rand on steroids

And its gaining in popularity among the sheep

[CrispyQ]

82. You are so spot on Jackpine.

I have my radical theories why we are where we are, but I think a key part of what is required is getting back in sync with nature. When you're in tune with nature, it's hard to be all about yourself. I make an effort to get outside every day & even then, the majority of most of my days are spent inside. I know people whose only time outside with when they are walking to/from their car. Several years ago I read that there was an enthusiasm gap about environmental issues with the young generations & the theory was that it was because they spend so little time outside in the environment.

I have many more jumbled thoughts, but I will spare you. Your post really resonates with me & I suspect with many.

[Jackpine Radical]

93. I live in the country for exactly the reasons you're talking about.

I have long been aware that people who grow up with considerable exposure to the web of life we call "nature" think differently than city folk. "Paganism" is essentially an animistic world-view, which in turn has its origins in a sense of the interconnectedness of things. It is not by chance that "pagan" means "country folk" or that "heathen" means people of the heath. The beliefs of country folk were not just manifestations of their ignorance as more "sophisticated" people believe; those beliefs were derived from levels of awareness that are unavailable to those who spend their lives in the conrcete desert. In town people are walled off from the world around them the incoming stimuli are raucous and aversive; it takes sirens and bright flashing lights to get their attention. On the other hand, in the woods your awareness is drawn outward by the beauty and the subtle signals that surround you. I can spend half an hour looking at animal tracks on my morning walk, get a picture of what transpired overnight, and feel the time well-spent.

Two years ago we adopted a middle-aged Golden retriever who had spent her previous life in the city. She was fearful and "clingy." She showed little interest in the rural world around her. She was fortunate to get excellent tutelage in being a country dog from our older country-raised Golden, and these days she happily wanders around our property in the company of the old guy, smelling things, chasing rabbits and treeing squirrels, finding disgusting things to roll in, and otherwise living a happy dog life. It was wonderful to watch her blossom into a real dog. I think that her development was a perfect metaphor for elucidating the virtues of a full life access to the natural world.

[DonCoquixote]

120. Nature is not a cure

because while there are many liberal farmers and rural folk, the bastion of conservatism is in the rural areas, why? Because America was funded by people who thought that if they got their own bit of land, they could be independent and not have to depend on anyone. I may hate Ted Nugent, but I have to admit, he knows nature better than many city dwellers do, and could probably hold his own in the woods, does that mean that he is one bit less willing to support the civil war on the weak, no, he uses his love of nature as the excuse.

I only bring this up because I have heard nature used as both a panacea, and as an excuse for hate by the GOP. I even had a fiancee tell me straight that if Dixie won, it would be better for Gaia because slaves would prevent industry (did I tell you she was a Wiccan?)

[Jackpine Radical]

130. Actually, I think rural life as it was lived prior to, say, WWII,

was actually pretty communual. People relied on each other a lot. In 1911, after their first Wisconsin winter, my family's house burned down (actually, it was just the cook shanty of an abandoned lumber camp that stood on the land they had bought), and the neighbors rallied around to build them a new house. Although I didn't grow up on a farm, I remember being recruited to work on farms in the community during haying season as a kid. There was no pay, but everyone got together for a big picnic-style feed afterwards. Also, farmers pooled their equipment and labor together and went around to each other's farms in planting and harvest seasons. No single farmer owned all the equipment needed to farm, but various members of the community did. You may have heard of "threshing crews;" a threshing crew was just the band of neighbors going around the circuit to each other's farms, getting in the crops.

I actually don't particularly know who Nugent is, other than via references to him on sites like this, but I somehow doubt that he has much in common with the people I'm talking about. For example, although most of the people I knew hunted and fished to supplement their larder, none of them had any game trophies. That wasn't what it was about for them.

Incidentally, the most of the people I grew up among--mostly the children of German and Scandinavian immigrants--were not particularly religious in any conventional sense.

And certainly exposure to nature is no panacea. I would never claim otherwise.

[DonCoquixote]

137. Sorry to sound brusque

If I could,let me tell you where my remarks came from.

I am in Dixie, where, for all the strip malls and Walmarts, you have a lot of people who really were not that far removed from Rural life. I remember myself when some people literally rode horses to the local wal-mart. That is one of the more vivid memories, because you had the cowtown aspects of my town run right into the changes occurring.

The odd thing is, many of the people you knew rural life, who could indeed hunt for game, knew which wild plants to eat, etc, turned out to be the HARD right, and my that, I mean people who would explain that Slavery was the best thing that ever happened to black people. They were the ones that said union people needed to be shot, and they used their link with nature to justify this, as if they were one Neitzche-style supermen. After all, people like us don't need no gubbamint.

On the other hand, read people like Derrick Jensen. http://endgamethebook.org/

Some of these folks who believe they are going "back to nature" will blithely put off the fact that their world would starve many, and mean death fro many that need modern medicine. They use a anarchist bent (note I say bent, you can tell half of these idiots misread Kropotkin at best) to again, destroy the idea of government, as well as what Jensen calls the "religion of science", hated because it destroys the "spiritual".

Now, I think we need to preserve nature, and not just because it will preserve us. Even the sci-fi writers realize you need green spaces to heal and preserve the mind/soul. I just get very wary when people point to the past, as many time, it is a reference to a time that never was. I love the fields and churned butter, but I am also glad we have dentists and eye doctors.

[CrispyQ]

138. Being in sync with nature is not the same as living a rural life,

to my way of thinking. Being in sync with nature is a philosophy that humans cannot live outside of nature, no matter what clever devices we come up with, that delude us into thinking we can. Thom Hartmann calls this period "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight." His book of that title is very good. We are living beyond our means on an ancient energy store. When it's gone, we don't have anything in place to replace it, to support our current numbers. Collectively, we have our head in the sand. There is no political will to address the issues we are heading toward at warp speed. Look how we've stuck our head in the sand on Fukushima. What are 30 more years of that shit leaking into the Pacific going to do?

I personally think we are sooooo fucked, but I've always been a glass half empty type.

[SharonAnn]

90. But he works for the Federal government instead of getting a real job.

[the_sly_pig]

97. Government-employed republicans ....

Sure don't like told they are hypocrites. Worse yet, they don't understand subtle suggestion. The world is changing folks, at least in this country. Eventually there will be a split. Rome didn't last forever either.

[CrispyQ]

101. "Eventually there will be a split. Rome didn't last forever either."

Yes, & likely will happen in a manner that none of us could predict.

Welcome to DU! Interesting screen name. I have known three pigs in my life & all were delightful creatures & one was definitely sly about getting treats.

[WCLinolVir]

128. Federal govt. is a real job. What does that mean?

Most federal employees are hard working.

[grilled onions]

2. Judge and Jury Of Our Healthcare System

We have fought for years with insurance companies who give you just enough coverage to make it seem worthwhile with costly premiums, that is until they decide what can and can't be covered,doctors,meds,tests are all in the hands of a few wheelers and dealers in the insurance carnival of fun.
Meanwhile some who are lucky enough to have jobs--even more lucky to have benefits--something that we almost took for granted decades ago are also "deciding" that only they should be so lucky to have healthcare coverage. First they accuse people of being lazy and trying to get something for nothing. They don't deserve it is the battle cry of the selfish. If the person actually has a job but it does not offer any insurance whatsoever the caustically remark "well then they should get a job that does have healthcare benefits." No answer to the fact that more jobs these days seem to not have insurance than those who do. It's like they love to gloat and watch many suffer.

[raccoon]

83. I had idiot Republican conservatives say that to me when I had a job that didn't offer health

insurance----that I should just get a job that does have it! Problem solved! :Sarcasm:

As you say, more and more jobs these days DON'T offer healthcare benefits. The Republicans/conservatives don't have
any answer to that one.

Their thinking is so simplistic, I bet a chimp--a real chimp--could outthink them.

[zazen]

3. I've been sensing this too--a sort of "expendables" cleansing

Here in North Carolina I've been calling it ethnic cleansing, in that I think a lot of our GOP is about passing policies to throw people off of Medicaid, unemployment insurance, and welfare is about deep cultural hatred of low SES blacks.

But I keep reading/hearing more and more about Tea Party types targeting people on disability or with chronic health conditions with their hatred, and they really do seem to want us to die, already.

Do they not have ill relatives? That's what I want to know. Perhaps it's that, in their mind, if you don't have family able to take care of you, then you're not worthy of life. They must think they can take care of their family members who become permanently disabled or have a chronic medical condition that is bankrupting them.

[WCLinolVir]

5. My biology teacher said NC had the most stupid people on the planet.

[HardTimes99]

6. Was he or she from SC? - nt

[WCLinolVir]

11. I don't think so. She had no accent at all.

She was a smart lady, wheelchair bound from rheumatoid arthritis. And scathing at times.

[n2doc]

9. I guess they didn't travel much

NC is nowhere near the top of the list in that category, in my experience.

[WCLinolVir]

13. Actually she traveled a lot.

But I know people who say Tucson has some of the least intelligent people on the planet. If you live in a big city, it makes a difference. And I am going to guess she worked at the local college level. My brother lives in Raleigh which has a lot of out of state workers.

[Mopar151]

124. Stupid begets stupid

Like sourdough, or a breeder reactor. Look at a bad frat - like Alpha Whatta Themafucka at Dartmouth. Prime cut breeding material good DNA, from the best schools, bright as hell. 3 years of ritual binge drinking, singing dirty limericks, and talking like pirates, and we get Tuck School grads with the ethics of a pirahna.

[WCLinolVir]

126. Ain't it the truth.

[zazen]

10. we might soon, if the GOP succeeds in dismantling our great universities

My area of NC is dense with high tech workers and PhDs, but I make no claim as to whether being highly educated inoculates one against stupidity.

[WCLinolVir]

14. Tell me about it. When I got my nursing degree I was astounded.

The doctors could be so uninformed.

[Egalitarian Thug]

40. Imadoctoritis. A highly contagious malady that spreads like a wildfire on medical school

campuses and infects virtually every member of the student body and faculty . While it is not fatal, nearly half of those that contract it, never recover. It seems to first convince those that contract it that they personally hold all relevant human knowledge on any topic, and then the cerebral calcification process begins.

[enlightenment]

131. Based on some attorneys I know,

I'd say that affliction is not limited to med schools . . .

edited because it's apparently too damn early in the am for my internal spell check to function.

[WCLinolVir]

135. Drs and lawyers, what a mix.

[Supersedeas]

12. Plenty of disability attorneys who feel the same way your bio teacher does

Disability hearing officers in NC tend to have very restrictive interpretations of the code.

Maybe a day will come, when there will be a widely-recognized-and-codified classification of disability to allow anyone (absolutely anyone--and absolutely anywhere). who is just tired of working, who just doesn't want to engage in the 9-to-5 grind anymore, who just can't and won't do it anymore, to receive a hefty disability award...

There is bound to be a disability attorney who can make that argument fly, I mean, who is really to blame for the inculcation of this trait anyways...surely your brilliant bio teacher can provide some expert testimony on the subject...and cash in on the backside along with the disability attorneys who get paid for constructing emotional generalizations.

It's a big planet...with plenty of mirrors.

[WCLinolVir]

17. I don't get your meaning at all.

I mean, who is really to blame for the inculcation of this trait anyways...surely your brilliant bio teacher can provide some expert testimony on the subject...and cash in on the backside along with the disability attorneys who get paid for constructing emotional generalizations.

It sounds like you want to posit a disparaging generalization. My brilliant bio teacher was in a wheelchair
from RA. She had been on disability. What about it?

[WorseBeforeBetter]

59. Your smart, well-traveled teacher doesn't sound very professional. (n/t)

Last edited Tue Sep 3, 2013, 12:29 PM - Edit history (1)

[loudsue]

92. That smart, well-traveled teacher sounds like she knows what she's talking about.

I live in NC, and I'm here to tell you....STUPID is in the drinking water here, at least in the rural areas. Maybe one out of a thousand in rural areas are liberal/open minded, and not nursing on the fox news teet every day.

Not just stupid, but crazy and hateful as shit. My neighbors scare the shit out of me.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

94. I live in North Carolina, too, LS. Non-native, though.

And I've been on this planet for quite a while and think it's unprofessional for a teacher to state what what's-his-or-her-name is claiming.

Every state has pockets of stupid, crazy and hateful, thanks to decades of poisoning by right-wing media. I know, I'm from blue PA and am astonished by what's happened to the once-mighty Pennsylvania. You don't hear much about crazies in Hawaii, though, perhaps "tropical paradise" and being far removed from the mainland has something to do with that...

[WCLinolVir]

129. Ouch. Yeah it is scary when they are hateful to boot.

Will you be moving soon?

[pitbullgirl1965]

106. They *do* want so called undesirables to die

I'm not joking or jesting. Remember the debate with Ron Paul and how the audience whooped and chanted "let him die!!" about a hypothetical man with no insurance? And before dying, making sure we have a small, miserable existence, with a sublevel Mcjob (that we should be thrilled over) and to the poorhouse for those who cannot work.

[WCLinolVir]

4. Why would you cry over this ahole?

The guy has no way of knowing where the money comes from that is given to inmates. I would bet his is white and a racist. Just going with the averages here. I don't like the idea that taxes go to support aholes like him in any capacity. But there you have it. I am as bad as him. Except I would not deny his right to medical care. And even though I have advanced life support skills, I don't know that I would lift a finger if he was having a medical crisis.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

27. "I don't know that I would lift a finger if he was having a medical crisis."

Did you, who claims to be a nurse, really just say that?

[WCLinolVir]

38. He would probably sue me.

I do not work as a nurse. I am not licensed. So take your outrage elsewhere. If I was actually licensed and it was a patient, I would intervene. Never claimed to be a nurse, I have a degree in nursing.

[Bunnahabhain]

46. NCLEX too hard? n/t

[WCLinolVir]

62. No. I have an RRT credential which is harder than the NCLEX.

IMHO. I knew I could not work in a profession arena that, thanks to HIPPA, allows people to be killed and get off scott free. There are so many things wrong with the medical field it isn't funny. I knew I would not keep my mouth shut and would not last very long. I realized I did not want to nurse, and have chosen another healing path.
But I finished my degree anyway.

[Bunnahabhain]

75. Respiratory therapy exam

is not harder than the NCLEX as the NCLEX is far more broad. Also, RTs are part of healthcare, so if you think folks are getting killed you'll see it there too.

[WCLinolVir]

85. I've taken all 3. Have you?

As for seeing folks getting killed, yes, you do.
There are two levels, RT, RRT. Why are you folks so angry?

[Bunnahabhain]

95. Why would I take any of those exams?

They all work for me, which IMO, is a far superior position to be in.

Also, if people were really being killed, how would HIPPA stop you from reporting this? Report it to family/POA. Report it to DHS. Report it to the hospital QA and/or risk management department. Report it to JCAHO. What you are saying makes no sense.

Also, I have never heard of someone passing their NCLEX and not registering as an RN. Even if one never practices as a nurse having that "RN" behind your name is worth a lot.

[WCLinolVir]

116. If I have to explain it.

And if you actually worked in the medical field you'd know very well the restrictions that HIPPA places on staff. Not to mention just how politicized the work environment is. Report it to the family?? You are so funny. What you are saying makes no sense, unless one wants to commit professional suicide.
I was just asked the other day by my doctor why I didn't want to be a nurse and when I told him he looked at me and said, yeah it's true.
And if I don't work as an RN or in the medical field, what value is getting a license?? Sorry, don't need the ego.

[Bunnahabhain]

118. I do work in the medical field.

You think every lay person knows what an RRT or NCLEX is? What JCAHO is? DHS? You have a very poor understanding of HIPAA. And btw, it's HIPAA not HIPPA.

And no one said anything about ego for having your RN. What would that have to do with ego? It's not that hard to be an RN. It's of monetary and professional value.

[WCLinolVir]

125. Yes HIPAA.

But no, I'm not wrong about it. You go tell the family the details of the treatment that you witnessed from Dr X or nurse y and you are violating it. Know what happens when you violate HIPAA? Not hard to be an RN? Well I guess you have never been sued because you had to follow a DR order that put you license in peril. You never had to put up with a nurse manager who gets a bonus for cutting work costs and shifts the patient load to barely manageable. Not to mention asshat DRs. And then there is the position that they have put nurses in. Legally. And you are clueless for saying that. Clueless or ignorant. I don't believe you work in the medical field, unless it is in management. Even managers know that being an RN can be very demanding. Since they do most of the work.
As for lay people you could look it up. You didn't know there were two levels of respiratory credentials.
I don't really care about besting you. But don't bother trying to BS me that the truth always gets told in medical care. Plenty of lies, excuses and denial in the profession,
as well as harassment and discrimination. And like any profession whistle blowers are ostracized. They lose their jobs and good luck finding employment, because the last thing a hospital wants is someone who isn't afraid to tell the truth. They must have been jumping for joy when HIPAA got passed, because it is a legal gag order.

[Bunnahabhain]

132. You are wrong about it and none of the list of things in your imaginary rant happened to you.

You said you "never claimed to be a nurse" so those things never happened to you either. Unless now you want to claim you were a nurse which would contradict your prior posts.

Also, you need to read for comprehension better. I never said the job of being an RN was not demanding I said the process of becoming an RN was not that difficult. A 20-24 month community college course and the NCLEX. You know, the NCLEX, which you said is not that difficult an exam. Did you want to contradict yourself on this point too?

I also never said "the truth always get told in medical care." You are just making things up in your head here. I said something pretty specific, namely that one can report bad care without violating HIPAA. That is an undeniable truth as anyone that has ever worked in healthcare knows. In fact it is something many scopes of practice or professional ethics compel a person to do.

I have no idea why you are spreading such lies but I hope other readers do not fall for them.

[WCLinolVir]

133. No, you are wrong.

Read your post. "It's not that hard to be an RN". Not get a degree. The actual present tense of functioning as an RN. And your comment that it is easy to get a degree ignores the reality of what some people have to deal with to get one.
Reading comprehension?? Really?
I did not say it was not that difficult an exam. Stop making shit up. I did not think it was as hard as the RRT. Reading comprehension. Do you want to contradict yourself?
Yes, one can report bad care to management and be considered a whistle blower. One can not go to the family. HIPAA. Read it!
The only lies here are yours. The undeniable truth is that very little of a mass of incompetent care gets reported. The news is full of it. And management is more interested in covering their asses than protecting patients. And thats why people who complain get shut out.
I'm done with you. You misrepresent and try to twist what people write. And you have little reading comprehension. And I think you lie.

[Bunnahabhain]

136. Wow, you're out there.

And are getting more and more worked up. No matter how you try and twist we can see your prior rant is either imaginary or in contradiction of what you said earlier.

And your understanding of HIPAA is laughable. I do not know a state in the union that does not require licensed health care providers to report abuse, neglect, med errors with negative patient outcomes, sentinel events, etc. You are just plain wrong and keep doubling down on it. Self reporting is a major part of healthcare culture and REQUIRED under many state laws and professional organizational ethics.

Talk of what does and does not get reported is moving the goal posts on your part (ad hoc rescue is the name of the logical fallacy). You said HIPAA prevented reporting and that is a lie. Period. End of story.

[WCLinolVir]

139. No I didn't, but there you go lying again.

"You said HIPAA prevented reporting and that is a lie." No. Not true. Not what I wrote.
You said tell the family. But I see you just can't respond to the reality of what you actually wrote. And you are delusional if you keep insisting everything is hunky dory when you report on other people. Med errors are usually self reported. So yeah self reporting sure. Feel free to self report. But report someone else?? Especially if that someone is a Dr and you are a nurse? Another story. You seem so intent on avoiding a discussion of the reality of working in the medical field. So stop lying about stuff I didn't write. Moving the goal posts? WTF? Just respond to the actual content and stop trying to manipulate a non existent narrative.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

52. LOL I'll take my *outrage* wherever I damn please.

Just an FYI -- DUers didn't just fall off the turnip truck.

[WCLinolVir]

63. Why so angry?

"DUers didn't just fall off the turnip truck." Is code for what? I don't speak for anyone else here. I 'm pretty sure I only see your name on your post. FYI.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

74. Just like Bill Frist offering up a medical diagnosis based on videos...

presuming to know an online poster's emotions is wrong, too.

But if it makes you happy:

[WCLinolVir]

86. This must be the worse before better.

I offered up a medical diagnosis? Really? When was that?
Anger is a symptom. Which I construed from your word choice "wherever I damn please". And I still haven't had the turnip truck analogy explained. I'll assume you refer to an ulterior motive. Which I lack.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

96. No, the "worse" would be not lifting a finger if someone were having a medical crisis.

Particularly someone with your supposed credentials. Seriously, how hard is it to call 911?

How nice. We're back to square one.

[WCLinolVir]

117. I'd call 911. Never said I wouldn't.

Even if you have insurance, you could be sued and liable. Even if your certification is up to date. Add the cost of hiring a lawyer.

[HardTimes99]

7. Thanks for posting. I believe the sickness is 'imperial rot' and it goes way, way

beyond healthcare (the authors' point).

In the aftermath of Katrina, I heard variants on this shit from people with whom I worked along the lines of "Why didn't those people just leave New Orleans when the Mayor and Governor told them to?" The implication was that they somehow deserved the suffering they were now enduring. This attitude pretty much typifies the entire Republican Party as a whole, imho, which is why I won't discuss anything with any of those fucking fascists once they make their colors known.

[matt in france]

42. with what money...how???

How can a broke person leave a place. Poor no car and no money = no bus or train ticket...how were poor people supposed to have left new orleans?

[HardTimes99]

44. I didn't bother trying to poke at the RW mentality. But if I had to hazard a guess, their thinking

was that the poor abandoned in New Orleans should have left on those empty school buses. Of course, the idea that all the bus drivers had probably fled ahead of the storm never entered the musty synopses of their empathy-challenged brains.

I walked off that job a couple days later (for mostly-unrelated reasons) and it was one of the best decisions I've made in my interactions with the capitalist world.

[L0oniX]

56. +1 imperial rot indeed! n/t

[marmar]

8. k/r

[xchrom]

16. hey you -- seems like ages since i've seen you. all is well?

[marmar]

21. Yes buddy, I'm good. ...... Summer haze -- I've been taking a DU break......

....... but with the arrival of fall, I'm back and ready to rock!!!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. Social Darwinists have always existed, but

our experience with the Nazis (who killed physically and mentally disabled people along with Jews, Rom, gays, and political dissidents) made those kinds of ideas socially unacceptable.

However, in the last 30 years, the right-wing media have been cultivating people's worst instincts, encouraging them to hate and envy (yes, envy!) the poor and unfortunate.

There's also some magical thinking involved: "If I hate the poor and unfortunate enough, God will see that I'm not like them and will spare me from misfortune."

[zazen]

22. "magical thinking" and distancing . . . ^^ this ^^

'There's also some magical thinking involved: "If I hate the poor and unfortunate enough, God will see that I'm not like them and will spare me from misfortune."'

I think you're onto something here. Yes, the US has had the white racial purity theme historically, but it was not driven in the same way that the German need was to self-identify as Teutonic and physically perfect (a need that was satiated every time they could kill one more "imperfect" person).

But that's really not what I sense when I sense the hatred of the Tea Party types, most of whom I think would rather see a white liberal suffer than a (middle class) Black Republican--in other words, party ideology tends to trump racial or ethnic heritage in a way that would have been unthinkable in Nazi Germany. I think if they can find a Muslim who'll spout the Glenn Beck talking points, they'd throw them up on the podium.

It's very odd, historically. It's like they get off on people sharing their willingness to cognitive distort or something.

Whatever the case, another psychological drive than eugenics has to be in operation here. I've been assuming for a few years that it's this inchoate terror that the Age of Growth is ending, yet they have no narrative for it, so they have to pin the dire consequences of unconscious recognition resource depletion and degrowth on some scapegoat. Maybe they think it won't happen to them if only those bad people would die already. I dunno. I think your thinking is intriguing, though.

We should probably start another thread exploring the psychological explanations of their current hatred.

[haikugal]

60. I'm currently reading...

Deer Hunting With Jesus..Dispatches from America's class war by Joe Bageant...I recommend it. We're talking about the Birch society's values and cultivation of the American Redneck...ie. Tea Party. I recommend this book and am sorry we no longer have his voice.

[matt in france]

67. plenty of rednecks

Help the poor and are not opposed to public heath care for all. I have met some....the family of honey boo boo does a lot to help the poor and they are pure redneck. Lots of rednecks vote on the left...

[haikugal]

68. True...to a point.

I recommend his book because he grew up in Winchester Virginia, just down the road from me and understands 'his people'...in this case ^^^^ the exception proves the rule. I could also say that most of these people consider themselves 'good christians' and don't realize that their religion has little to nothing to do with the teachings of Christ.

[mountain grammy]

70. Thanks, I'll look for it.

Maybe it'll help me understand my in-laws. Although, my husband grew up with them and he doesn't understand them either. He says he'll read it after me.

[haikugal]

71. He does it with some grace and lots of humor...

I have the same family and am the known 'commie'...it helps to understand where they're coming from even if they don't.

[Populist_Prole]

107. I second the recommendation of that book

It is humorous, interesting; fascinating even in ways, yet can be so disheartening in the frustration of seeing basically good but ignorant people that vote and support policy that is literally hostile tho their very being.

[Mopar151]

127. There is a lot in what you say here.

And I think that your term of "Willingness to cognitive distort" is a good start.
I heard* that, in the Koran 'There is one true light, but there are many lenses." My friend the philosophical welder opined "If some fool in a suit says he has the One True Lens, watch the bastid closely, like through a rifle scope. If he says it's for rent, it's time for him to go."

*Hey, it was an SF book, about a bunch of guys with wires in their heads, and some old shiek name of Friedlander Bey.

[Starry Messenger]

19. k&r

That's the worst thing capitalism does to humanity, imo. It inculcates its ideology into some working people and makes them take on the same sociopathic aims.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

20. I hate pricks like this guy.

They don't realize that they are paying more now than they would if we had a single-payer system. On top of his moral bankruptcy, it looks like he's severely lacking in logical integrity.

And we have to put up with people like him.

[MADem]

51. Someone who needs medical care for a loved one is going to head for the ER and

that guy will end up paying for it with higher fees.

Or, he'll wake up one morning to find his house robbed, his car stolen and chopped, all to get money to pay for a doctor for someone who is ill.

One way or another, he's gonna pay.

He also doesn't "get" that the more people who jump into the pool, the more everyone gets to beat the heat. The prices go way down the more people play.

Don't hold your breath for single payer though, and don't make the perfect the enemy of the good--let's do what we can with what we have to this point. It's a long road.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

58. Yep, that was my point.

He doesn't realize that overall costs will go down in a single-payer system including administrative costs on the provider and the insurance side.

Even though I have a major qualm with the ACA, I do recognize that it will help people. We still have to keep pushing for a progressive alternative, though. The ACA is a market based solution to the health care problem - and since that still puts profits before people, it will still have problems.

It is indeed a long road. Keep fighting the good fight!

[MADem]

84. As more people see the benefits, there's likely going to be more enthusiasm for SP down the line.

I live in MA, and I have a relative who had a massive stroke, who had been laid off, no insurance, unemployment ran out, at the end of his savings, older-and-unemployable, in deep shit. Talk about the definition of "fucked!"

Commonwealth Care paid for EVERYTHING. Ambulance, top notch medical care (he even got a private room right by the nurse's station because they wanted to keep a sharp eye on him), aggressive treatment to mitigate the stroke, and as quick as he could be moved, he was shuttled off to the same hospital Theresa Heinz just got out of, where he got some of the most intensive physical/occupational/speech therapy I have ever seen. After a month and change there, he was sent off to a step-down facility with more PT/assessment. Then, when they let him "out," (which they did because I agreed to take him in and provide day-to day assistance/support) he was provided with outpatient therapy, a leg brace, and medical devices.

Cost to him? Zip. Nada. Not a dime.

That said, he EARNED that care, IMO. He spent his life working with profoundly disabled adults (physically and intellectually) and he is one of the most compassionate human beings I know. I'm glad "the system" was able to give back to him a measure of the compassion he's given to others over the last forty years.

People will learn; they just need to have it hit someone close to home, and they'll start to "get it." We've had it for some time now, the sky hasn't fallen, people aren't tearing their shirts and running around with their hair on fire; it WORKS.

I can't wait for the day when the big jars by the diner cash register that say "Help pay for Fred Smith's Chemo" or "Contribute to the Sue Jones' Dialysis Fund" are a distant memory. I still see those in my travels here and there, and that's a sad thing, to have to hope like hell that some stranger will be moved to put their spare change in a jar in order to get treatment.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

87. I'm glad that your relative had the care he so deserved.

Wait, not only deserved, but because it was his right - as I happen to believe health care is.

Yes, I hope the enthusiasm for single-payer increases, as it is the only humane and practical solution to our health care woes.

[mountain grammy]

23. I remember a family holiday dinner, arguing about health care

My RW Christian in laws all had the same argument.. why should they, hard working Americans like themselves who keep this country running, pay for the health care of the lazy so and so's who refuse to work?
I said, so if a child is sick and the family is poor, the child should die? I thought ya'll were pro life. The conversation stopped. No one said a word for a few minutes, then they said, well, of course not.
A year or so later we were having the same conversation, and before I could say a word, my father in law looked me in the eye and said, "yeah, if the family can't pay for health care, the child should die."
Abortion is murder, but denying health care to those who can't pay isn't.

My inlaws are all God fearing Republicans.. don't ever tell me both parties are the same.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

57. I would have looked straight at them, and told them

Matthew 7:12 - “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets"

It goes both ways.

[Brigid]

72. With attitudes like that,

Your in-laws are *not* God-fearing, I promise you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. This is what 50 years of realigned Republican populism has brought us.

Reagan made our bigotry okay.

[magical thyme]

25. my neighbor across the street turned my horses loose by the side of the road

and apparently tried to chase them out the gate. They are smarter than he, and instead ran to the furthest (and scariest) corner of their pasture.

Why? Because if my horses got hit (and badly injured or killed them and the occupants of the car that hit them), then I would be liable and unable to prove that I hadn't been negligent and left the gate open. And then I would lose everything, and my house would be auctioned. And his friend who's had an eye on my house for years would get it at half its market value.

He also left a moose liver in the corner of his front yard, by the road. Lured my dogs across the street right at a blind corner. I guess the same hope as above. Cause an accident with me to blame. Never mind the agonized deaths, the innocent loss.

Yes, there are neighbors who would just as soon seen you die.

Also, I was apparently supposed to be an illegal abortion, but my mother's aunt found out and intervened. My parents used to go away for weekends and leave me locked out in the street -- when I was 14. 25 years ago, my sister told me she hates me, has always hated me and will always hate me.

Yes, there are family members who would just as soon see you dead in the street.

I've earned everything I have. I've worked hard, most of the time been paid less than my peers except for one magical, brief period in the mid-90s when I made more than they.


And yes, I've always been "expendable." It's hard to deal with some days, but there it is.

And it's gotten worse in recent years, as some people such as my neighbor aboe are increasingly taking action to get rid of me. Before it was passive aggression, now its trespassing, harassment, attempted pet killing, etc. As a result, increasingly, I'm turning to self-protection. Game cameras just arrived; I just need to buy the batteries and other supplies, and up they will go this fall.

And I will probably be armed soon, as well. The same neighbor who tried to kill my horses and my dogs actually told me outright a couple years ago that I need to get a gun.

[Eleanors38]

37. Sounds like your punky neighbors are doin' some "Regulatin'."

You need some trail cameras and a lawyer in a thousand-dollar suit who has no sense of personal hygiene. And stick to your guns.

[magical thyme]

39. the cameras arrived last week

I have time over over the next few weeks to get the batteries, etc. that they need. In the meantime, I'm trying to figure out the best spots for them. Then I'll just wait for a day he's not home to install.

I wish I had a hungry, yet reasonably trust-worthy, lawyer. As far as I can determine, in these parts unless you're a 1%er, they will have no part of you. Just not enough money involved for them to get off their sorry lazy butts.

[Eleanors38]

45. Regulating has little support today, even in conservative, rural parts.

People don't like it when private property is attacked. Lawyers of all stripes love ea$y ca$es. So do the police.

[WCLinolVir]

69. I'm so sorry you have to deal with someone like that.

[avaistheone1]

26. k&r

[niyad]

28. so sorry you had to endure this hatred, xchrom. people like him are impossible to educate, or even

to open their eyes in the tiniest way. I would have been tempted to say, "and MY taxes go to pay YOUR damned salary, and it disgusts me that I have to pay for ignorant, hateful people like you." it is almost amusing to watch them foam at the mouth when their own way of thinking is turned back on them.

Unfortunately, these ignorant, hateful, clueless people are everywhere. Glad I missed the fair, then.

[KG]

29. the idiot mantra: taxes = welfare.

[unblock]

30. and of course they feel very strongly that way right up until it happens to them.

have you *ever* heard of one of these *sshole who, upon going broke and/or dying without medical care, says they deserved it and brought it on themselves through their own laziness and candy bar spending?

no, the minute the shoe is on the other foot, suddenly they see they come hat in hand for public funds and the generosity and caring of others.

[closeupready]

32. With age, comes wisdom. Eventually, you can smell out idiots like this

WAY in advance, and just completely block them out. They win simply by getting an audience. Deny them that, and all they have ... is silence.

[totodeinhere]

43. Wisdom doesn't always come with age. Actually in the last election Romney's best demographic

was voters age 65 and older. And Obama's best demographic was voters age 18 to 29. So just which age group has the most wisdom?

[closeupready]

47. It happened with me. I guess everyone's not so lucky?

[ismnotwasm]

33. I tell people like that we could always bring back an old industry

Death wagons to pick dead and dying unfortunates off the street. He's an asshole. Plus 'working hard' doesn't guarantee shit. You can lose it all, and need government assistance. This, I've seen.

Being grateful for what you have, when and if you have it, having empathy and compassion as well as well as helping brothers and sisters in need or less fortunate is the healthiest response.

Where I work, (I'm a nurse) I'll occasionally hear a co-worker refer to a difficult, under or non-insured patient as 'a waste of resources'.

Fuck that. What leads to wasted resources is that attitude to begin with. Expanding medicare combines resources and allocate them fairly, cuts waste and holds health care providers and insurers responsible. Programs put in place for preventative care can only lead to improved health and health knowledge in the populace.

As far as the prison industry? It's a disgusting cesspit that needs a major overhaul. I wouldn't listen to anybody who uses anecdotal experience as a way to judge family members of the imprisoned (heh! I know this through anecdotal experience of my own)

And I was on fucking welfare at one time. Now I'm not. Thank God it was there, right along with food banks.

[Gormy Cuss]

81. +1 n/t

[peace13]

34. He doesn't realize that he too is one medical disaster away from bankruptcy.

In this country those who 'have' lay on all that they have, thinking it will protect them. They look at health care as a privilege. It makes them better than others. If everyone has it then he will no longer be special. It turns out that people do not have the right to health care, water or food. Ask the corporations and then for final validation go ask the most ignorant f**k at the fair. Go figure! They are ignorant and selfish.

[area51]

121. +1 n/t

[gtar100]

35. To even hold such hateful views requires a closed mind.

Their reasoning is flawed and shortsighted. Facts do not back up their spite so they are left with hyperbole and anecdotal stories to support their claims. Sadly, that is enough for so many people to swallow their bullshit. It's up to us to not let that be the only thing that is heard about the health care issue.

[BlueJazz]

41. I've talked to people like that. I usually say:Well, I understand your feelings. Most sociopaths..

...have trouble relating to the lives of other people and fail to see the broader picture, such as the enormous tax breaks for the rich and
other welfare schemes relating to the wealthy. Do you realize that the minimum wage should be somewhere around 16 dollars ? Other
countries have similar wages and ALSO have health care for all.
Why do you think that is ??

ETC.....They usually look like dear caught in the proverbial headlights...

[closeupready]

48. Also, on "To The Contrary" this past weekend, a female panelist

was going on and on about how unfair it would be to institute a national health care program using a federal tax when that would mean that everyone who is currently beneath her would be brought closer to her standard of living.

I found that so offensive and disgusting.

[riverbendviewgal]

49. reading this

Makes me feel so fortunate to live in Canada. I have experienced personally my family getting the best health care, with no denying or waiting. Imagine having a husband and son diagnosed two months apart with cancer. Husband had non - Hodgkins lymphoma and son has glioblastma multiform brain tumour. Son had same tumour as Senator Ted Kennedy and I looked up the senator's treatments. My son had the same as Kennedy. There was no medical bills. Just had to pay for parking at the hospital.
I had a detached retina two years ago. Went to my optometrist, not knowing why my eye sight was seeing only half on one eye. He sent me same day to an eye surgeon and I got laser surgery that same evening. I had to drive two hours to see surgeon as I live in a rural northern Ontario community. The health care insurance (OHIP) gives a reimbursement for my gasoline usage.

I probably pay more taxes than Americans through income tax, sales tax and gasoline tax but I do not resent it at all. My income tax percentage was 30 percent. I can live with that. I have a higher income than many seniors who would pay minimal tax. Ontario seniors pay $100 annually for their prescription drugs, after that they are free. Some pharmacies charge a small dispensing fee and some don't charge any fee.

Health care is not for profit here. I hope someday you all get it.

I have a niece in the states who is a mom of 2 little girls who works well paying job with the IMC. She is very against universal/one payer health care in the USA. She says why should she pay for health care. Her dad, my brother, says anyone with no health care can go to the emergency room. They are RW teabaggers, which astounding to me since the know what my son and husband went through.

They hate Obama as well. I believe it is because he is black.

[LiberalLovinLug]

91. I'll second that!

As a fellow Canuck.
Once a country wraps it head around answering the question "Is healthcare a right or a privilege?" and finally realizes that the availability of health services to its citizens should be regarded as much of a right as free speech or the right to a fair trial. And on top of that comes to the realization that universal single payer, with no private profit middlemen, is also the cheapest and easiest on their wallets.

And the final case to be made is that you releave all stress in society about sickness and injury in your family. From birth to death, you are covered and do not have to trouble yourself about it no matter where you work or live in the country. I can't imagine living in a country without it. Its baffling and speaks to the power of media how brainwashed negatively a good percentage of Americans still are about it.

[riverbendviewgal]

99. interesting how we are ignored here

Guess because the truth hurts.

There is a joke going around . How do you tell the difference between a senior Canadian and a senior American. The Canadian is smiling and is enjoying life. The American has a very stressful look.

You are so right, we canadians are not tied to a job we hate because of fear of losing our health care.

It was so, good, for me to not have to worry about medical bills with my family being treated for terminal cancers. We could concentrate on being together and having quality time.

Canada I stand on guard for thee, Glorious and Free.

[reformist2]

50. It's the tear-others-down mentality winning over the build-everyone-up mentality.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

53. "He didn't answer in words, just shrugged his shoulders again and smiled."

Chilling, isn't it? Another sociopath. Probably a Ron/Rand Paul lover.

[matt in france]

73. ron paul is a doctor

Who has actually treated people who were unable to pay..his son is quite different

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

76. Ron Paul thinks your health hinges on his and other's charity

[matt in france]

80. i disagree with him on this issue

But at least he gives and believes in charity.

[Thav]

54. They're all against socialism until they need it.

Once the shoe is on the other foot and they're out of work and sick, then they will be in line for their "socialism" faster than you can point out their hypocrisy.

Besides, if this person works for the federal prison system, then his wages are paid for by tax payers. Why should he get health care benefits at the expense of tax payers, or even a salary?

[L0oniX]

55. So he works for a prison that provides some health care.

If there was one picture of all the US people who died today for lack of money for health care, put along side a picture of the dead Syrian gas victims ...which of those people do you think that asshole would want to do something about?

[maryellen99]

61. Another attitude these teabaggers have

That if they or their family members get sick and there are huge medical bills that they can't pay, they'll just declare bankruptcy and it will be a-ok

[NutjobMichele]

64. Until THEY need it

Cheney is anti-gay, until his daughter is out as gay
In a similar manner, you read about "CONVERTS" , Republicans who are anti-ObamaCare until they lose their government job and can't find healthcare that will accept their preexisting conditions.

Your FOOL FRIEND at the PRISON, most likely belongs to a UNION
and is likely pro-union, but only HIS union.

He really isn't anti-YOU... he is just PRO-HIM.

[Highway61]

65. I want to know

When it became a sin to hate the poor. My God. Believe me when I say I have seen such a dramatic change (NOT for the better) in a relatively short period of time. Ignorance abounds.

[Orrex]

66. Tell him that single-payer healthcare would help him remove his head from his ass

Last edited Tue Sep 3, 2013, 12:46 PM - Edit history (1)

Otherwise, he's apparently dealing with a chronic and life-long condition.

[xchrom]

77. i love you orrex -- but read your header. so to speak.

[Orrex]

79. LOL! Whoopsie!

Fixed!

[Curmudgeoness]

110. Chronic, life-long, and pre-existing condition. nt

[smallcat88]

88. The real problem is

that too many people who agree with that guy are in positions of power; or they are the loudest people talking to their own reps and senators. I am constantly amazed by how many people I know who are unaware of this stuff because they're just not paying attention to politics. And they probably won't know until it starts affecting them personally. If I try to explain what's going on they just get bored and change the subject. Apathy - one of the greatest obstacles to freedom!

[felix_numinous]

89. People are being re educated,

civics, philosophy and liberal arts have virtually disappeared, which provide building blocks that teach people HOW and WHY they need to think for themselves, and to recognize illusion, manipulation, social skills and compassion. How people are being taught about different cultures, histories told from varying points of view showing diversity, if this is told from a xenophobic or religio-centric point of view this can atrophy and handicap people's ability--and WILL to understand complexity.

Too many people are being conditioned to require simple dumbed down explanations--and it is just plain EASIER to be really mad at your next door neighbor than to grok the big picture.

A lot of these subjects were put away as too 'touchy feely' when privatization and deregulation began to take over. The whole corporatocracy mindset is intrinsically sociopathic. It requires that individual independent thought be replaced with corporate personhood=GROUPTHINK.

Groupthink does not equal unity, because it values obedience above thinking--unity is a product of mass awakening and consciousness.

This is all invisible if you have been CONDITIONED and not educated--this is why logic, data and reasoning do not work--people need to be deconditioned--they first have to recover their ability and WILL to think for themselves.

[Enthusiast]

98. Fascism can only exist where there is cruelty and intolerance.

That's why cruelty and intolerance are being cultivated by the propaganda mechanism.

[booley]

100. fear is a factor

The idea being "I work hard for what little I got and now the government is going to come in and take it away to give to lazy people who won't work for it."

Plays on irrational fear and legitimate anger/frustration since these people ARE getting screwed .. just not by the poor people they stereotype.

Always said that was the real purpose of the tea party, why it stopped being a fringe group after 2009. It was meant to preserve the status quo by re directing legitimate far and anger at a system that had broken down away from the true culprits and onto convenient scape goats.

The meme of the weak bullying the strong, that those with the least amount of power somehow control things at the expense of those with money and power, permeates much of conservative politics in general and tea party rhetoric in particular.

[TomClash]

102. Once again the irony of ironies

Gubmint job, Ayn Rand attitude.

The jackass only has his healthcare because of unions, socialists and Democrats. In other words, the works of others.

[colorado_ufo]

103. Don't let people like this haunt you.

They don't think through their own arguments. Someone who "doesn't work as hard" as he does? Well, what about someone who works HARDER? Does that person deserve more than he has? Who is to judge the quantity and quality of that work? What about the people who work the hardest (by the way, is that physical or mental work? Or a combination? Or what?) and yet are underpaid? In other words, what the hell is he talking about? Is he the "gold standard" of freakin' work? When my father retired, they hired three men to replace him.

What about the disabled? Would this imbecile throw his mother into the Soylent Green machine, if she couldn't afford care?

Does this moron know how insurance works? That the larger the pool of insureds, the smaller the premiums, and the better the benefits?

If this a-hole works for the Federal prison system, he is funded - and his insurance - by your tax dollars and mine. Whatta jerk.

To keep our family afloat, my husband and I both worked multiple jobs and businesses, sick and well, and did without things or financed them (and paid back everything, with interest - no bankruptcy).

If that "wunderkind" ever stops by your booth again, don't bother to argue, don't use logic, don't engage in debate, because nothing works on a closed mind coupled with an entitled attitude. Request that he lean closer, then exhibit a single extended digit, in an upward motion.

Now, honey, go have a cold beverage of your choice - you have earned it. And I will be the judge on that one.

[mountain grammy]

105. Oh, I do like your attitude!

[marble falls]

104. The real problem with the US and in the US. "I got mine, so f.... well you know the rest.

[muntrv]

108. He works for the federal prison system? Our taxes pay for his whiney teabagging ass!

[sulphurdunn]

109. Why should I pay

to keep you fed and healthy when I could make money pulling your gold fillings and rendering you into livestock feed? Wait a minute! What are YOU doing with gold fillings?

[Skittles]

111. and so many of those folk who think that way claim to be Christians

[silvershadow]

112. There are a whole lot of "people" in this world who actually aren't, for one thing. nt

[blkmusclmachine]

113. .

.

[Beartracks]

114. Where's the basis anymore for believing that financial security...

.... -- or what conservatives call "worthiness" -- is directly and exclusively tied to hard work?

It's like these tea-party types don't know anyone at all who works hard but still has trouble making ends meet.

==============

[slipslidingaway]

115. Do we want a lasting productive nation that will benefit the majority ...

of people or not?

Short term gains for some vs. long term gains for all.

People have to decide for themselves and take a stand.

[SammyWinstonJack]

119. So why should people who can't afford or don't have access to health care insurance have to

pay for his health care plan through their tax dollars?


Makes about as much sense as what this self-serving, self-absorbed and self-involved asshole spewed.

[Surya Gayatri]

122. America's special brand of unbridled, fend-for-yourself capitalism is

so cold-blooded and callous, compared even to other developed nations, particularly in northern Europe.

The US's for-profit healthcare system is only one element (albeit a major one) of this mean and malicious global system.

[ancianita]

123. Next time you get machine gun questions, ask what civilization is, what cave man ethics are.

Demand that he justify the existence of insurance -- a huge capitalistic enterprise based on pooling risk, after centuries, no matter what the political setup of a country. Ask him why bonds trade on stock exchanges.

Demand that he explain how strong man rule in Somalia is working out.

[Romulox]

134. Why did we EVER think a society based on devil-take-the-hindmost capitalism

could produce social cohesion or community?

We've got what we bargained for, imo.