This active duty Army Soldier has a request.

[shedevil69taz]

13 years on active duty and never once had reconsidered my path of making this an at least 20 year career...until Syria, and the possibility of us getting militarily involved there. Soldiers who are among my peers and have spent the entirety of their career thus far fighting the "War on Terror", all pretty much mirror my opinion: we are tired, worn out, and beaten down.

So I am writing emails all day today to Representatives and Senators urging them to vote no. Me and a whole lot of my fellow service members would love it if many more people would do the same.

[Nictuku]

1. K&R!

[uhnope]

117. OP Shedevil: How do we know you're legit? Assad orchestrated fake US soldiers in protest photos.

Sorry, but this is an anonymous forum, and you could be anybody. An attention-seeker. A Putin fan. An Obama hater. A proponent of Assad. You could be anyone. You came here just for this?

I find it hard to believe the Iraq occupation never made you "tired, worn out" and watching two years of dictator Assad bombing his own cities never made you "tired, worn out" but the open and public debate on whether to take action over the ban on chemical weapons being used on hundreds of civilians suddenly makes you lose your resolve. No, I don't buy it.

[BrotherIvan]

134. I'm only a little way down the thread and already

Did you take a wrong turn trying to get to FR? Fuck me.

[uhnope]

142. you're confused. FR/RW is against intervention because Obama.

smilies don't help your veracity btw

[Wilms]

2. Support the Troops!

[TxGrandpa]

35. Bring them home!!! n/t

[Rockyj]

92. Love it!

That's really away to support our troops! Time for fine men & women to come home!
Give them jobs to help build America's infrastructure!

[G_j]

3. K&R!

[pacalo]

4. K&R.

[Koko Ware]

5. Can you resign your duty?

in protest?

File a CO status?

Thank you for your service, and hope you do not get involved in this mess in Syria. I truly believe that non-interference is the answer.

[shedevil69taz]

8. Resigning or CO status...

I didn't try to do either when I was sent to Iraq three times, and Afganyland (it's like disneyland only not fun) previously, so doing it now is not an option. I will execute my duties to the best of my abilities wherever my orders send me.

[Koko Ware]

12. Stay safe, friend.

[SammyWinstonJack]

20. K&R

NO MORE WAR!

[HarveyDarkey]

98. Let's hope those orders send you home.

And the orders for others keep them out of the ME, wherever that may be.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

6. Some of us are trying....

but too many are buying into the hype.

Contact info here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023578816

[leftyohiolib]

7. IRAQ was ok but this is over the line?

not that i want war with syria

[Schema Thing]

11. ^this

Would you be bitching about going into Rwanda?



Do you want chemical weapons used on the battlefield and on civilians?



All the shitty, ineffective, often bald-facedly cronyism-inspired Military leadership from Washington since 2000, and THIS is what's got you upset?

[Schema Thing]

14. I would think it clear that my comment was not directed at you

but to the op.


When someone post "^this", and then goes on to agree with your post, then isn't it pretty clear that they are directing their queries to the same person that you directed yours to?

[leftyohiolib]

16. my apologies i didnt know what that meant

[Schema Thing]

17. no worries

[Dragonfli]

22. You tell em! He is obviously a coward unlike the brave chicken hawks that will send OTHERS

anywhere because they are just so brave that wars others fight do not frighten them in the least, no matter where they are sent!

Who do these soldiers think they are anyway? If they were really brave they would serve from behind a keyboard like the noble soaring eagles that post here.

These cowards have a lot of nerve I tells ya, they should not be speaking up about such important matters, they have no skin in the game like the rest of you brave people.

[NuclearDem]

28. Oh man, you're so brave.

As long as someone else will fight the fight for you, you're more than willing to beat the drums.

And you're psychic too! Clearly you must be because you seem to know exactly what's going through this soldier's head and what they've been through over the last 13 years.

[Flatulo]

33. What exactly is the plan to remove chemical weapons fom the battlefield?

I thought we were talking about a few cruise missiles. The consensus opinion I'm hearing from military people is that it will accomplish exactly nothing except to send a message that we're pissed off.

[Precisely]

103. a lil respect is in order

[Marr]

132. It's awesome how you can post from the field like that.

I assume you're already in the military and not just talking tough out of your ass. That'd really be a douchey move.

[Schema Thing]

138. oh hush. this isn't free republic

And half the people claiming to be military in discussions like this are lying out their ass in the first place (so that people like you will give them instant respect and defer to their arguments). The content of the OP makes it pretty damn likely to be true in this case.


I noticed a guy the other day in a discussion here on DU claim he was a "combat vet" who'd just been serving "in the Korengal in 2011"

lol, yeah right.

then described himself as Air Force something or other in another discussion. People who served in the Korengal belong to a fairly small club in the first place (a friend of mine did) and it certainly wasn't a base of operations for the Air Force. Also, there is that little matter that the US left the Korengal in April of 2010.

[Doctor_J]

15. Yeah, no shit

Good call. Something tells me this soldier has been listening to Limpballs too much, and is against Syria because Obama's for it. I don't like the DUers who flipped from anti- to pro-war, and don't think much of those who've flipped the other way either.

[NuclearDem]

25. Yeah, no.

[Marrah_G]

64. I think the point is that Iraq wasn't fucking okay

and still isn't.

Afghanistan is a fucking mess.

Unless you want a draft you should be against this too. Because if Russia/Iran get involved there will end up being another ground war.

[leftyohiolib]

71. i am against it but im for the draft if the us goes in. NO DEFERMENTS

[raouldukelives]

99. We won't see another draft.

All you have to do is keep things economically depressed and you'll find lots of people who will sign up for the pay and benefits in exchange for assisting in the termination of poor peoples lives for the benefit of Wall St shareholders and the MIC.

[joshcryer]

110. "tired, worn out, and beaten down" = Iraq OK

[JaneQPublic]

9. Utter BS

No one is talking about "boots on the ground" in Syria.

The most likely scenario is lobbing a few Tomahawk cruise missiles at aircraft stations, tanks and command and control facilities.

Unless this Army soldier is serving on one of the USN Destroyers or CVNs in the area, he will very probably have nothing to do with actions in Syria.

How curious is it that he was fine with fighting in Dubya's open-ended decade-long wars -- Afghanistan and Iraq -- but once Barack H. Obama plans a mere military action, he stamps his feet and decides to mutiny?

[DeSwiss]

19. Yeah.....

...war's a cakewalk.

[JaneQPublic]

21. Yeah, and all military action is just like Iraq.

No difference.

Our involvement in Libya was another Iraq.

Kosovo was just like WWII.

[warrant46]

79. I guess you were in a different War

Than I was ?

[TxGrandpa]

36. Lob a few Tomahawks now....then...

'advisers' later, then escalation to sending more troops in, and more....
Already the Telegraph is reporting that the first armed rebels trained by the CIA in Jordan are making their way into Syria. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10283758/First-Syria-rebels-armed-and-trained-by-CIA-on-way-to-battlefield.html

So what next?

[JaneQPublic]

40. Is that what happened with U.S. military action in Libya?

No, it wasn't.

In Kosovo?

No, of course not.

Quit drinking the Rand Paul Teabagger KoolAid.

[Fuddnik]

66. If you like it so much, enlist.

[TxGrandpa]

137. This is not Kosovo...

Syria is a close ally of Iran, and next door to Israel. One misstep and the whole area blows up. This is different from Kosovo and it seems that when we get involved in Middle Eastern affairs we upset the apple cart there.

First in Iran back in 1949 by covertly overthrowing a democratically elected government, and then in Iraq where all we accomplished was removing a checkmate on Iran and upsetting the Middle East applecart, and furnishing an on the job training area for al Qaeda, which wasn't in Iraq prior to our involvement.

Not a teabagger nor a fan of Ron Paul, his daddy represented our district in Congress but I never voted for him. Even if he was Satan he'd been elected in this majority Republican area.. Both are two peas in a pod...and both should stick to their medical practices.

Have to ask which of our wars you were in that makes you so gung-ho for another one.

[Bluenorthwest]

45. I think it is rude to refer to people as 'boots'. The OP is in active service, so if nothing else

when speaking to those who serve us in their presence I'd say referring to them as inanimate objects while making the case for a situation that could put them in harm's way is insulting.

[JaneQPublic]

48. Common vernacular

Even POTUS and SecDef use the term "Boots on the Ground." Get over it.

[Carolina]

73. oh puhleeze

Did he say he was fine with it? And besides would YOU be so supportive of this action if the POTUS was repuke?!

And how do you know that there won't be boots on the ground. There are such things as unintended consequences and blowback...

Read and learn: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/08/31-1

[JaneQPublic]

87. Your link is mostly unsubstantiated opinion...

...and is riddled with inaccuracies.

So, I guess it's okay with you if countries are permitted to gas civilians while the whole world looks the other way?

Doing nothing in the face of evil has unintended consequences, as well. When other jackasses around the world see that we're happy to just sit on our hands while Assad flouts international proscriptions against chemical weapons, we can look forward to similar attrocities.

As Burke said, "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

And by the way, no, I wouldn't be so supportive if the POTUS were a repuke. That's because I trust Obama and John Kerry to limit military action when they say they will but I don't trust the repukes. I happen to believe there is a huge difference between the two parties.

[emsimon33]

10. I have been writing and calling too and for the same reason

We have asked our military men and women and their families to suffer enough for the greed of a few.

[DeSwiss]

18. K&R

[JRLeft]

26. I support these troops. I am sick of war. We are for ever fighting in wars.

When will we have a peaceful period?

[Peacetrain]

29. Are these the pictures that was posted by the Syrian hackers?

on that Marine site..

[MADem]

31. I know there ain't any 22 year CPOs on active duty in the USN.

Up or out would have gotten 'em years ago.

I think a lot of these people are either "former" or "never was."

[Peacetrain]

34. It looks exactly like those pictures ..

I saw it on the web yesterday.. I tried looking it up to compare pictures just to make sure..but I am not going to go on the that SEA site.. I may be wrong.. but geez they look exactly alike

[MADem]

38. People who are on active duty understand the ethical prohibitions against using their uniform to

advance their political agenda, unless they're a Republican idiot like that jerk Boykin, who got checked for his conduct.

It's an across-the-board, Department of Defense no-no. All branches have additional guidance that is grounded in these and other DOD directives:

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/133401p.pdf

http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/defense_ethics/ethics_regulation/1344-10.html

[Peacetrain]

43. I thought that.. but was not sure

You could not wear your uniforms when making political statements if you were still active. If you were no longer active, it was okay. I remember talking about that is high school.. because the active military was not supposed to show support for any particular group in power. Thank you for the links

[Bluenorthwest]

49. Kerry wore his uniform on MTP as a war protester. And all over the media.

So that's an interesting bit of rhetoric.

[Peacetrain]

50. But Kerry did not wear his uniform when he went to the Moritorium..

The Swift Boaters went after him hammer and tongs on that one.. He was in civilian clothing at the Moratorium .. after his discharge he wore his uniform to many events.

[MADem]

60. Well, this was his "uniform."

If you were alive back then (and I assume you were) you will remember that uniform items--along with "faux" uniform items, were the fashion. People didn't shop at The Gap or Old Navy, they shopped at the Army-Navy Surplus Store. Have a look at this picture--look closely at the protesters, war veterans, wearing jeans and uniform 'bits,' and you'll see what I mean:




Kerry never appeared at a protest in his service dress blues or whites. He wore tee shirts, blouses, and bits-and-pieces of working uniforms from assorted branches, many of which can be "legally" worn provided the insignia is removed.


The USN uniform regs have been rewritten since Kerry served, but the relevant bit would have been around this chapter: http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/support/uniforms/uniformregulations/chapter7/Pages/7201.aspx

I can remember many people wearing pieces of Army, USMC, and working Seabee green uniforms as well as the old "dungaree" trousers OR shirts (but never both together, oddly enough) -- and many of those folks never served a day in uniform...but plenty did.

Now--to cut to the chase....WHAT was Kerry wearing on Meet the Press? He was wearing his "uniform of the day:"


A non-standard haircut (but his hair was short compared to some), an ARMY fatigue shirt....and his Navy ribbon rack. He wasn't wearing his "Navy uniform." That conglomeration is not an approved "uniform" in any branch of service--the shirt is used for work, the ribbons decorate a more formal uniform.

The first time I heard the words "John Kerry" and "president" at the same time was the spring of 1971. John Forbes Kerry, 27 years old, a Yalie, a Navy vet wearing battle ribbons on a rumpled Army fatigue shirt, told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that he could not support the war in which he and other veterans had risked their lives and killed Vietnamese.

"Thirty years from now," he told a rapt audience, "when our brothers go down the street without a leg, without an arm or a face, and small boys ask why, we will be able to say 'Vietnam' and not mean a desert, not a filthy, obscene memory, but mean instead the place where America finally turned, and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3874969

In the photo above, he's on MTP. In the photo below, he's testifying before Congress. See, he liked that "look"---a lot of folks did back then--including people who never did a day on active duty:


It's also important to recognize that a drafted military is not held to the same standard as an All Volunteer Force. When a person is conscripted, as Vietnam vets were forty some odd or fifty years ago, they are forced to do the job. Nowadays, people who join are doing it of their own free will--no one is demanding that they give up their liberty to serve their country. A greater degree of professionalism is expected from servicemembers nowadays, because they aren't in a coercive environment.

There's no way anyone with a brain in their head would mistake that former servicemember testifying at that table before Congress for an active duty Navy officer. It's obvious to anyone giving him a cursory glance that his choice of clothing is representational, costume-like, and "firing for effect." He wouldn't get a hand salute and a wave-through if he presented himself at a military base gate in that get up.

[Carolina]

75. He changed for the

bad and lost his moral compass as he climbed the political ladder

[MADem]

80. No he didn't. He was a superb senator and he's an outstanding SECSTATE. nt

[Carolina]

81. yeah right, that's why

the majority of Americans support him, that's why the world supports this intervention (coalition of the willing), that's why he has to parse his words, that's why he had to twist himself in knots to justify is cowardly IWR vote.

He's full of shit and I wish he were still just your Senator rather than using his position of power to promote war!

[MADem]

83. You sure you're in the right place?

Too bad no one in this administration really cares what you think.

I sure don't, either. I can't be bothered with people who make stuff up to fan flames, and that's what you're doing.

[questionseverything]

101. no one in this administration really cares what you think.

that much we all understand

[shedevil69taz]

58. Not true

CPO (Chief Petty Officer) is the pay grade of E7, which means that they can serve a maximum of 24 years before the Navy would force them to retire.

[MADem]

78. Yes, true. This guy would have only been a 22 year CPO if he got his Kuwait Service medal as an E-1.

Fresh outta boot camp. And he might have been more senior for all we know. And given the drawdowns that happened -- never mind the Cheney one that happened in the Clinton years, we can assume he survived that one--during the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts (to make room for Army end strength) they weren't keeping people around once they were retirement eligible. They were shoving them out the door as fast as they were able--it caused a lot of hard feelings.

If this guy was a chief for three years or more, and that is probable, he would have come under a retention board order--up or out--the minute he became retirement eligible.

Just because one "can" serve as much as 24 years doesn't mean the USN has been LETTING people serve that long--in fact, that's what these boards are about--to toss out the people who have been hanging around the longest and who haven't promoted; that's the "up or out" bit. They target a few hundred every year and send them home.


Read this NAVADMIN--they've been doing this for the last several years: http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/reference/messages/Documents/NAVADMINS/NAV2012/NAV12375.TXT

RMKS/1. THIS NAVADMIN ANNOUNCES THE FY-13 SENIOR ENLISTED CONTINUATION BOARD
(SECB), A PERFORMANCE-BASED BOARD FOR CONTINUATION OF SENIOR ENLISTED
PERSONNEL WITH AT LEAST 19 YEARS OF SERVICE, CONVENING 25 FEBRUARY 2013.

2. ELIGIBILITY. ACTIVE COMPONENT (AC) AND FULL-TIME SUPPORT (FTS)
E7-E9
PERSONNEL WITH AT LEAST 19 YEARS OF ACTIVE SERVICE COMPUTED FROM THEIR ACTIVE
DUTY SERVICE DATE (ADSD) AND THREE YEARS TIME-IN-RATE (TIR) AS OF 1 SEPTEMBER
2012, AND E7-E9 SELECTED RESERVE (SELRES) AND VOLUNTARY TRAINING UNIT (VTU)
PERSONNEL WITH AT LEAST 19 YEARS OF QUALIFYING SERVICE AS OF 30 SEPTEMBER
2012, AND THREE YEARS TIR AS OF 1 SEPTEMBER 2012 WILL BE CONSIDERED BY THE
CONTINUATION BOARD. PERSONNEL MEETING ANY OF THE FOLLOWING CRITERIA ARE NOT
ELIGIBLE AND WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED BY THE CONTINUATION BOARD:
A. APPROVED TRANSFER TO THE FLEET RESERVE OR RETIRED RESERVE (WITH OR
WITHOUT PAY). PERSONNEL WHO, AS OF 25 JANUARY 2013, HAVE A NAVPERSCOM (PERS-
8334 OR PERS-912) APPROVED REQUEST TO TRANSFER TO THE FLEET RESERVE OR
RETIRED RESERVE (WITH OR WITHOUT PAY), EFFECTIVE ON OR BEFORE 30 NOVEMBER
2013, WILL BE EXEMPT FROM THE CONTINUATION BOARD. APPROVED REQUESTS FOR
TRANSFER TO THE FLEET RESERVE OR RETIRED RESERVE (WITH OR WITHOUT PAY) WILL
NOT BE MODIFIED SUBSEQUENT TO THE BOARD CONVENING DATE. PERSONNEL MEETING
ALL OTHER ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS WHO HAVE A NAVY PERSONNEL COMMAND (PERS-
8334 OR PERS-912) APPROVED TRANSFER TO THE FLEET RESERVE OR RETIRED RESERVE
(WITH OR WITHOUT PAY) AFTER 30 NOVEMBER 2013 WILL BE CONSIDERED BY THE
CONTINUATION BOARD. FOR AC AND FTS MEMBERS, PER REF A, FLEET RESERVE OR
RETIREMENT REQUESTS SHALL BE SUBMITTED 6 TO 24 MONTHS PRIOR TO THE FLEET
RESERVE OR RETIREMENT DATE. FOR SELRES AND VTU MEMBERS, PER REF B,
RETIREMENT REQUESTS (WITH OR WITHOUT PAY) SHALL BE SUBMITTED 6 TO 12 MONTHS
PRIOR TO RETIREMENT (WITH OR WITHOUT PAY) DATE.

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=74211

They recently offered yet ANOTHER "early retirement" round to get rid of the deadweight:

http://navylive.dodlive.mil/2012/01/23/navy-offers-early-retirement-program/

He also looks a little thick--which makes me wonder if it has been a while since he ran a PT test. The Navy is using that thing as a real force shaper, a way to get rid of people, and the Army is starting to lower the boom, too, to get more people to leave as they draw down.

In any event, if he is still on active duty, he's probably going through TAP and doesn't have to worry about being deployed anywhere.

[leftyohiolib]

69. but you put up with all the wmd lies by g.w. in iraq - armor-less humvees sub-standard body armor

[bobclark86]

94. But fighting for Haliburton...

is acceptable?

YOU VOLUNTEERED. YOU signed up to invade other countries to support the MIC. NOBODY held a gun to your head or threatened you with jail time to join the military. I chose not to volunteer for that. As a thank you, I have no job security, no health insurance, no GI bill...

Oh, and that is President Obama, soldier. You swore an oath to obey him. If he tells you to jump, you don't ask how high, you just jump. He tells you to go to Iraq or Syria, your choices are a big sandbox or a cell in Ft. Leavenworth. Don't like it? Don't volunteer.

[cantbeserious]

23. Kick And Recommend

eom

[sarisataka]

24. As you can see...

to some you are personally culpable for every illegal action any US service member has done and every war that has been fought. If you were truly moral, you would be in jail.

A few do get we just do want our civilian government wants us to do. Just because we do not like an order does not make it an illegal order.

Stay safe and work for peace
USMC (ret)

[yellowwoodII]

27. Done!

Already did. Any representative who votes against his constituents wishes should never get our votes again.

[MADem]

30. You are not going to "get militarily involved" in Syria.

Please disabuse yourself of that notion.

This is a Navy evolution, with some "from a distance" opportunity for Air Force assets. This is not a project that involves the Army--they've done more than enough heavy lifting, it's why the latest drawdown is focused on that branch.

And the worst injury anyone is likely to get is a paper cut from filing the after action report.

[JaneQPublic]

37. Bingo!

Finally, someone with a sense of reality! Thank you for actually taking the time to find out what Obama's plans are for military action before posting on DU.

If I hear one more misinformed (although well-meaning) person talk about "our soldiers going to fight and die" in a war on Syrian soil, I'm going to scream.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

51. So what are the targets?

Oh that's right, it's going to be a precision, or surgical, or what other word that makes us feel like we are in absolute control over the situation.

All the people killed will be guilty of something, right.

As long as we do the killing from a distance everything will be just OK.

Let the UN do it's job!

BTW I'm not misinformed

[JaneQPublic]

55. Targets = aircraft stations, tanks, and command & control facilities

In other words, the tools they use to launch chemical weapons into the populace.

Was your hair on fire this way when the U.S. did essentially the same thing during the Libyan uprising? Were you convinced then it was going to become another Viet Nam?

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

70. Thanks for such an enlightened post

I feel much better now.

What could go wrong?

[JaneQPublic]

74. World Peace Through Sarcasm

Clearly, anyone that snarky must be well-informed.

[ConcernedCanuk]

52. There are 60,000 "boots on the ground" in Afghanistan

.
.
.

Do you really believe that the USA lobbing in missiles from afar will not have retaliatory effects from Syria and its ally Russia?

and of course the USA will escalate to protect whatever . . . .

USA may not have a whole lot of its troops nearby,

but they've got lots of mercenaries

"contractors" they call them.

time to scream.

CC

[Carolina]

76. but you're okay

with dropping one form of deathmaker to save civilians from another form of deathmaker. Death is death

Your logic is as twisted as Kerry's words.

[cherokeeprogressive]

54. Paper cut. I can't figure out if people are ignorant or just naive...

&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[MADem]

90. Miraculously, the crew member is pulled free, and survives!

But USN aircraft aren't going to be used in this show (if any a/c are used, they're going to give the USAF a crack at it--and they aren't carrier based), first of all, secondly, the accident you illustrate quite direly could happen during a peacetime training exercise, and thirdly, the only way we won't see any "military" accidents is to get rid of the military, and that's not gonna happen.

No American Army is going to invade Syria.

No American aircraft will fly through Syrian airspace.

How many times do administration officials have to repeat that, while people here on DU completely ignore that and scream "MIC" and "PTB" and "Warmongers!"

What part of a forty eight to seventy two hour limited action against Syrian assets from a stand-off position is all that hard to understand?

[cherokeeprogressive]

111. I respect your opinion, MADem. I respect it enough so that you may remember a time a month or two

ago when, in a moment of pique I posted an untoward comment and you called me on it. As soon as I read your comment, I edited my post. I don't do that often, but I knew you were right, and felt I should do it because I do respect your opinion.

That said, I can't think of anything I've seen here that I find more offensive or insulting than your telling someone who purports to be an active duty servicemember what amounts to "buck up little camper, no one's gonna get anything worse than a paper cut in THIS military action". That's just not right. Minimizing the risks most servicemen and women face 24/7 just seems disrespectful to me, but maybe that's because I've seen peacetime accidents claim lives. FWIW, my last carrier deployment to the Med saw 7 fewer men come home to Pier 12 in Norfolk than left, and only 3 of them were flight deck casualties. One was sucked up by a Tomcat (he was gone from the shoulders up; they rinsed off the flight deck and we resumed flight ops), one was crushed by a broken cross-deck pendant during an arrestment, and one disappeared when a towbar broke and the A-7 he was riding the brakes in rolled backward off of the flight deck.

You and I both know that as soon as the shooting starts it's not uncommon for pre-action planning to go out the window as the situation changes and unforeseen circumstances make themselves evident.

As far as how safe Sailors are due to CIWS, phased-array radar and the like... the next generation of anti-ship missiles are already well into the prototype stage and they're hypersonic and no longer take a direct path to their targets. Ask a Submariner sometime about what kinds of ships the Navy has and he'll tell you there are TWO: Submarines, and targets. That's about to become a lot truer than it's been in the last 50 years.

What's your plan now that it's being widely reported that al-Assad is moving his weaponry and troops into densely populated areas? I saw your post about how you support bombing things instead of people, but what about when those things are posted with the civilians?

Again, I respect your opinions and am sorry our back and forth degenerated into insults and mockery. I didn't intend for that to happen and I apologize. I stand by what I said though about minimizing the danger our kids face when they're part of the machine whose purpose is to kill people and blow things up.

Peace.

[MADem]

115. Look--we all know that accidents happen. The Navy Safety Center wouldn't be in business if that

were not the case. However, the accidents in that litany list above happened WITHOUT any "war with Syria" and they have happened down the years in war and peace. In the relative peacetime of the Clinton era, before Bush sent people to Iraq and beyond, I buried a number of Sailors due to stupid shit--accidents on motorcycles, in cars, a heart attack, disease, suicide--these things happen. Sometimes, they happen in the workcenter--a line can snap, for example, and take off a kid's head. Life IS dangerous at times, it's important to practice vigilance. But those sorts of things have nothing to do with the type of threat faced by a landing party in a hostile environment, or a ship under siege by an attacking force. And that's not what any servicemember will be up against if action is taken against Syria.

There is a huge effort happening on the internet, egged on by the Syrian Electronic Army and the Tea Party, to suggest that "servicemembers are outraged" because "Obama is going to send them to war." That's just crap, but people who have never worn a uniform a day in their lives are pushing that nonsense like it's the real deal, when it isn't.

To try to suggest that a stand-off evolution that will not--again, NOT--involve any boots on the ground or assets within range of al Assad's forces is somehow inherently more dangerous than your average shakedown cruise is just not on. It isn't.

It's not a question of minimizing at all--it's a question of conflation. Navy assets will not be close enough to al Assad for him to get anywhere near them. If USAF a/c are drawn into this evolution, they will not enter Syrian airspace--SECDEF has already said this. Yet we've got garbage like THIS http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3590065 being posted here on DU, in a craven effort to whip people into a frenzy...and it's just disgraceful.

The biggest irony, I have noticed, is that a lot of people getting their dudgeon up couldn't find Syria on a map, don't know how hard or how long USA has been trying to diplomatically resolve the impasse with them, don't give a shit that the stinker in the pile is Putin, and don't want to understand how the UN Security Council's hands are tied because Putin has the power of veto over anything they--and the rest of the world--might want to do in order to restore some kind of peacekeeping order to that country. There's a lot of shit stirring going on, with a goal to deliberately obfuscate. I'm not suggesting that you are doing this, let me make that completely clear, but it is happening. And to make matters even more offensive, a lot of loaded language is being tossed around WRT POTUS and SECSTATE, who are being accused of everything from being charter members of the MIC, PNAC pals, nefarious "PTB" evildoers....I'm waiting for Batboy to fly by, some of this foolishness is so far out there.

As far as al Assad's weaponry, he can't move his desert based bunkers into the cities, and he can't move his airfields into the cities either. He can't move factories. He can't move all those piers and little naval facilities he's got along the Med--including the ones the Russians are improving so they can trade Med access for cash, weapons and hardware. Turn those piers, and anything parked by them, into a nice maritime reef. You crater his airfields and he can't fly anywhere--crater them enough and he's got a long, expensive repair job and no seabees to call. You take out his bridges and he'll have a hard time getting from spot A to spot B. You put a few big holes in his most important highways and then see how much moving around he can do.

The idea isn't to completely decimate him--the idea is that we want to piss him off, inconvenience him, make his life miserable, slow him down, cost him money he does not have, and show him there are consequences for his bad behavior. You don't have to hit cities or people to do this. If he decides "Screw this, it's going to end badly" he might be encouraged to leave and let one of his VPs take over. That would be the best possible scenario, it's probably not likely unless one of his palaces gets targeted and he has a close and scary call, but we'll have to see if he can be persuaded. Even if all that happens is that he's persuaded that using CW is a bad idea, we will have achieved a LOT.

Even Iran and Hizb'allah are saying he Went Too Far. Iran...and Hizb'allah. If he's not feeling some stress right around now, with or without US dithering, I'm a doggone astronaut.

[Marr]

133. I have a feeling that "paper cut" is going to end up in the same box as "cake walk".

[Nuclear Unicorn]

56. What if Iran decides to retaliate on Syria's behalf? What if they target Israel?

Do you think you're allowed to lob a few bombs, high-five your buds and crack a cold one for free?

[MADem]

88. Why would they? Didn't you read Rouhani's comments about Syria that he made the other day?

Don't you understand the rather visceral attitude Iran has re: this subject? Former President Rafsanjani also had plenty to say on this subject--he was first out of the gate over a week ago.

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/28/20233010-irans-president-tweets-condemnation-of-syria-chemical-weapons-attacks?lite

Iran (even as they manufacture them--no one has clean hands, here) is no fan of chemical weapons. They lost a lot of people in the Great War to them. The cemeteries are full of people who succumbed on the front lines to Saddam's gas. Many people in Iran live with the aftereffects: http://www.theguardian.com/world/iran-blog/2013/sep/02/iran-chemical-weapons-wmd-sanctions


They aren't going to leap to the aid of someone who uses them. Even an ally--they don't want or need that stink on them. They're not crazy.

Even Hizballah, Iran's noxious little actor over by the Med, doesn't think al-Assad did a good thing and they've said as much to Iran (it's the Torygraph, but it's in English): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10284773/Syria-crisis-chemical-weapons-use-a-big-mistake-Hizbollah-told-Iran.html

Syria crisis: 'chemical weapons use a big mistake, Hizbollah told Iran'
Bashar al-Assad's use of chemical weapons outside Damascus was discussed with Iran by a senior representative of Hizbollah, who described it as a 'big mistake', according to reports of a German intelligence briefing.

Ironically, this situation is something where Iran and USA might find a bit of commonality.

Iran wants the UN to act, too--but the UN cannot act, because Putin--who is the DU darling lately, for reasons that escape me--will block ANYTHING that the rest of the world wants to do to resolve this situation.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

89. You're giving Iran the moral purity card to relax us into a war against their client state?

I'll wager they love Assad more than they love the U.S. or hate chemical weapons.

BTW -- that would be the same Iran scrambling madly for NUCLEAR weapons.

[MADem]

91. I beg your pardon? I'm not giving Iran anything--I'm responding to YOUR insistence that Iran will

leap to aid Syria, when it's quite plain that this is just an absurd notion on your part because you are unaware of how Iran has reacted to this issue, and you made rather poor assumptions based on their previous alliances with Syria that aren't "operative" as a consequence of their own war history.

I am very familiar with Iran on a personal level. I think I have a better sense about how they feel about the war with Iraq, the after-effects, the devastated families, the cemeteries that are still full of mourners, all these years on, than you might be.

Rouhani is expressing the very plain will of the people, based on experience. This isn't about 'nuclear ambitions'--it is about living with wheezy, sickly, blind Uncle Ali who was gassed by the Iraqis, or taking your widowed mother to the cemetery every Thursday so she can put flowers on your father's grave....that would be your father who was gassed to death on the front lines by Saddam's guys.

So you are wrong--they don't "love Assad more than they hate chemical weapons." And most Iranians do not hate Americans, even as they don't always like governmental policies coming out of DC.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

120. I did not insist anything. I said it needs to be considered.

Claiming they are so morally offended by the use of CW that they would abandon their most faithful stooge in favor of US action is ridiculous on its face. They have publically threatened retaliation --

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/29/will-iran-retaliate-if-the-u-s-strikes-syria.html

-- to blithely wave that away in favor of rushing into a misguided, war of choice over ego would be absurd.

Whatever may be in the hearts of the Iranian people is irrelevant considering they have no say in how their government conducts foreign policy (kinda like America!).

[MADem]

124. Like I say, you don't have an understanding of how CW have affected Iran.

That includes how they have affected not just the people but their heads of government, and the history of their use advises their feelings on the topic. That is why Rouhani had something to say about it.

And no one is "rushing into war," but don't let that stop you either, I suppose.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

128. Yes, the government is so deeply traumatized they're rushing to get cuddlier nukes

[MADem]

129. Nukes are harder to use than CW. They are also far more expensive--as Iran no doubt knows.

CW deployment is easy, lazy, cheap as all get-out, and it was ubiquitous during the Iran-Iraq War.

You don't deploy a tactical nuke to "smoke a few guys outta their holes" to paraphrase the Chump, but that happened plenty of times in the II conflict.

[actslikeacarrot]

65. My major worry with the "from a distance" approach...

...is that Assad may have moved his chemical weapons. What if he moved them among civilians? Our precision strikes arent always so precise. And how would we know we would have gotten them all? My worry is that later on, after the bombing has started, is that all of a sudden we will suddenly need to send in teams of SF to get eyes on potential targets, as drones and satellite images may not tell the whole story.

[MADem]

86. They probably won't touch his chemical weapons.

They'll probably touch the stuff he LOVES.

Does he have a nice presidential plane? I'll bet he does. Does he have nice helos? Of course. Airfields, with nice smooth runways? Put a few huge holes in them!!!!

Does he have beautiful piers, on the Med, that provide him and his weak ass little Navy outlet to the sea, and that the Russians are improving so THEY have a Med base they can "rent" from him? Why indeed, he most certainly does! The Russkies aren't going to give him any money if they can't use any of his ports...

Is his brother, Masher, fond of rocket launchers? He sure likes to fire chemical weapons at little kids that way! Find them and smoosh 'em.

He does have assorted bunkers and facilities out in the middle of nowhere, out in the desert where there are no villages....boom, boom, boom--make those goes poof.

There's no need to bomb Damascus. There are plenty of targets that will INFURIATE al Assad and cause him no small amount of whinging if we hit them, and no people need be hurt.

I've always advocated the "Bomb stuff, not people" approach. Assad doesn't give a shit about people--he does care about his STUFF, the greedy pig.

[Rebellious Republican]

68. What could possibly go wrong? Paper Cuts,Pfftt.

USS Iowa Turret Explosion
Monday, April 19, 2010 12:01 AM
On 19 April 1989, an explosion occurred in turret 2 of the battleship USS Iowa (BB 61) external link as the ship conducted gunnery practice near Puerto Rico. The explosion, which began in the gunpowder charge of the center gun, spread through the three gun rooms and much of the lower levels of the turret. Forty-seven Sailors died.

http://www.navalhistory.org/2010/04/19/uss-iowa-turret-explosion


Aircrew members injured when AH-1W "Sea Cobra" from Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron (HMM) 261 impacted the ground during a training flight in Jordan. 31 Jan. 2000.

MV-22 "Osprey" based on Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Maryland, and temporarily attached to Marine Aviation Weapons and Tactics Squadron 1, Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, Arizona, crashed near Tucson killing all 19 Marines aboard. The Osprey was part of a two-plane flight conducting operational evaluation. 8 April 2000.

Both crew members killed when T-34C "Turbo Mentor" of Training Squadron 6, Naval Air Station Whiting Field, Florida, crashed in Alabama. 2 May 2000.

Pilot and radio intercept officer killed when F-14 "Tomcat" assigned to Fighter Squadron 101, Naval Air Station Oceana, Virginia, crashed during a flight demonstration at Naval Air Station Joint Reserve Base Willow Grove, Pennsylvania. 18 June 2000.

One person killed when the landing gear of a CH-53E "Super Stallion" of Marine Heavy Helicopter Squadron 464 collapsed during maintenance at Marine Corps Air Station New River, North Carolina. 21 Jun. 2000.

Both crew members killed when T-38A "Talon" of the US Naval Test Pilot School, Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Maryland, crashed at the station. 11 Jul. 2000.

Nine passengers killed when Navy-contracted Piper "Navajo Chieftain" on a routine shuttle flight from Naval Air Engineering Station Lakehurst, New Jersey, to Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Maryland, crashed in New Jersey. 9 Aug. 2000.

MH-53E "Sea Dragon" of Helicopter Mine Countermeasures Squadron 15, Naval Air Station Corpus Christi, Texas, crashed into the Gulf of Mexico killing all 6 occupants. 10 Aug. 2000.

Two F/A-18D "Hornets" of Marine All-Weather Attack Squadron 242, Marine Corps Air Station Miramar, California, collided in midair near Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, Arizona. One plane crashed, killing both aircrew members; the other landed safely. 11 Sep. 2000.

Instructor pilot and student killed when T-34C "Turbo Mentor" of Training Squadron 10, Naval Air Station Pensacola, Florida, crashed in Alabama. 27 Sep. 2000.

Pilot killed when F/A-18C "Hornet" of Strike Fighter Squadron 25 crashed in the Arabian Gulf following takeoff from USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN-72). 29 Sep. 2000.

Pilot was lost a sea when F/A-18C "Hornet" from VFA-151 crashed off southern California after a night catapult launch from USS Constellation (CV-64). 20 Oct. 2000.

Four Marines killed when MV-22 "Osprey" of Marine Medium Tiltrotor Training Squadron (VMMT) 204 crashed at Marine Corps Air Station New River, North Carolina. 11 Dec. 2000.

USS John F. Kennedy (CV-67). Petty Officer Third Class Joseph K. Kauffmann assigned to Carrier Air Wing 14, lost overboard on 26 Jan. 2001.

Two aviators killed when TAV-8B "Harrier II" of Marine Attack Training Squadron 203 crashed at Marine Corps Air Station Cherry Point, North Carolina. 3 Feb. 2001.

USS George Washington sailor lost overboard. 4 Feb. 2001.

Two instructor pilots killed when T-45A "Goshawk" of Training Squadron 22 crashed into the Atlantic Ocean while observing training flights on USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69). 21 Feb. 2001.

A sailor was killed in a flight deck accident involving a SH-60B "Seahawk" of Helicopter Antisubmarine Squadron Light 49 aboard USS Thach (FFG-43) in the Pacific Ocean. 19 Mar. 2001.

A Vietnamese helicopter surveying potential sites for full-scale excavations to recover remains of Americans missing in action from the Vietnam War crashed in Quang Binh Province, Vietnam. Chief Hospital Medical Corpsman Juan Pedro Gonzales, USN, killed. 7 Apr. 2001.

Seaman Matthew Draughon drowned while salvaging the wreckage of a Misawa F-16 that had crashed into the Pacific Ocean near Misawa Air Base, Japan. The umbilical lines supplying air and communications to Draughon became wrapped around the ship's anchor chain. Strong currents whipped the chain, which hit Draughon and caused him to lose his diving helmet. 5 May 2001.

Both aviators killed when T-34C "Turbo-Mentor" of Fighter Attack Squadron 125, crashed near Naval Air Facility El Centro, California. 21 May 2001.

Pilot killed when F/A-18C "Hornet" of Fighter Attack Squadron 106 crashed in Florida. 29 May 2001.

Both crew members killed then T-34C "Turbo-Mentor" assigned to Training Air Wing 6 crashed in Alabama. 8 Jun. 2001.

Three crew members killed when CH-46E "Sea Knight" of Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron 365 crashed into the water at Marine Corps Air Station New River, South Carolina. 9 Jul. 2001.

DoD news release indicates that 65 personnel died in aviation mishaps in fiscal year 2001.

LVS overturned on curve resulting in the death of the (Marine) A-driver. 2 Oct. 2001.

USS Inchon (MCS 12) fire in boiler room. Machinist's Mate third Class Ronnie Joe Palm, Jr. died and seven other sailors injured. 19 Oct. 2001.

Machinist's Mate Fireman Apprentice Bryan L. Davis lost overboard from aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk (CV-63) in Arabian Sea during Operation Enduring Freedom. 7 Nov. 2001.

Sailor lost at sea during an attempted search and rescue hoist by a HH-60H "Seahawk" from Helicopter Antisubmarine Squadron 14 in the Arabian Sea. 7 Nov. 2001.

Engineman 1st Class Vincent Parker and Electronics Technician 3rd Class Benjamin Johnson from USS Peterson (DD-969) boarding party drowned after oil smuggling merchant ship Samra foundered in the northern Persian Gulf. 18 Nov. 2001.

Petty Officer Randy Whitaker, USN, assigned to USS Russell (DDG 59), lost at sea. 27 Nov 2001.

Fireman apprentice on aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk fell from the top bunk rack and died from a head injury. 29 Nov. 2001.

Electrician's Mate Fireman Apprentice Michael J. Jakes Jr., died from a head injury on USS Kitty Hawk in Northern Arabian Sea during Operation Enduring Freedom. 4 Dec. 2001.

KC-130/R from Marine Aerial Refueler Transport Squadron 352 (VMGR-352) crashed near Shamsii, Pakistan, while supporting Operation Enduring Freedom. Command Pilot Captain Matthew W. Bancroft, Co-Pilot Captain Daniel G. McCollum, Flight Engineer Gunnery Sergeant Stephen L. Bryson, Loadmaster Staff Sergeant Scott N. Germosen, Flight Mechanic Sergeant Nathan P. Hays, Flight Navigator Lance Corporal Bryan P. Bertrand, Radio Operator Sergeant Jeannette L. Winters killed. 9 Jan. 2002.

Marines from 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit, supporting Operation Enduring Freedom, injured when an unknown item exploded in a burn pit while they were burning trash at their base camp in Qandahar, Afghanistan. Three Marines injured. 17 Jan. 2002.

Two US Marines assigned to the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit, supporting Operation Enduring Freedom, were injured when the backblast of a C-17 aircraft disembarking personnel and equipment at Qandahar, Afghanistan, caused two aluminum pallets to blow into the air, landing in the tent area of the Marines. The injuries were not life threatening. 18-19 Jan. 2002.

1st Light Armored Reconn (LAR) Battalion, US Marine Corps Corporal was acting as one of two required ground guides in order to assist in moving an M-813 5-ton truck off a loading ramp. As the driver started the truck, the Corporal jumped off the loading ramp onto the ground behind the truck. The truck jerked backwards pinning him between the truck and the loading ramp. The Corporal suffered fatal injuries and was pronounced dead at the scene. 18 Jan. 2002.

CH-53E from Marine Heavy Helicopter Squadron 361 (HMH-361), supporting Operation Enduring Freedom, crashed 60 kilometers south of Bagram in northern Afghanistan. Staff SGT Walter F. Cohee III and Staff SGT Dwight J. Morgan killed and five injured. 20 Jan. 2002.

Sailor fell off USS George Washington (CVN-73). Despite search by H-60 "Seahawks" from Helicopter Antisubmarine Squadron 3, the sailor was not located. 4 Feb. 2002.

5-ton truck participating in a battalion field firing exercise apparently jack-knifed while towing a M198 (155mm howitzer). The truck then rolled over. The mishap occurred at night (1830 PST--Sunset was 1727 PST). All 8 personnel were airlifted to a local hospital. 3 deaths and 3 serious injuires. 5 Feb. 2002.

Copilot and one crew member suffered minor injuries when their CH-46 "Sea Knight" from squadron HS-6 crashed during vertical replenishment with Mount Baker (T-AE- 34) 100 miles east of the Virginia Capes. 7 Feb. 2002.

Crewmen were injured when a UH-1N "Huey" from Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron 165 crashed in Kenya, Africa. 11 Feb. 2002.

Crewmen were injured when a KC-130F "Hercules" from Marine Aerial Refueler Transport Squadron 252 crashed at Twentynine Palms, California. 11 Feb. 2002.

A Marine suffered fatal injuries after being struck by the gun section of a M198 155 mm howitzer. 13 Feb. 2002

UH-1N "Huey" from Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron 166 crashed in the Chocolate Mountains of Imperial County, California, during a routine training maneuver. Two Marines were killed and two injured. 14 Feb. 2002.

F/A-18D "Hornet" from Marine All-Weather Fighter Squadron 533 damaged when it departed the runway after a hook-skip at Twentynine Palms, California. Both crewmembers ejected but one was killed. 17 Feb. 2002.

A Sgt. Maj. collapsed after a 4-mile run, went into cardiac arrest, resulting in death. 18 Feb. 2002.

Sgt. Maj. collapsed after first mile of a formation run, and later died. 1 Mar 2002.

CPL fell out of PT formation run and fell to the ground; died of an aneurysm. 1 Mar 2002.

LTCDR Christopher M. Blaschum, piloting an F-14B "Tomcat" from Fighter Squadron 143, killed despite ejecting, when his aircraft crashed into the Mediterranean Sea immediately after launch from the USS John F. Kennedy (CV-67). 2 March 2002.

Recruit collapsed while marching with his platoon. Three Parris Island drill instructors might have taken training too far, leading to the collapse of a recruit. Recruit was taken to a battalion aid station, where he became unconscious, lapsed into a coma, and was transferred to a local hospital and subsequently moved to Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston. 8 Mar. 2002.

Arabian Sea. F-14A overboard on landing, John C. Stennis (CVN 74). Aircraft returned from mission and was conducted an arrested night landing onboard USS Stennis. Upon engagement of the arresting gear, the aircraft's tail hook failed. The aircraft continued off the angle with insufficient flying speed and impacted the water. Both crewmembers ejected and were recovered; only one suffered minor injuries. Aircraft destroyed. 8 Mar. 2002.

HH-46D "Sea Knight" helicopter crashed in Atlantic Ocean during a search and rescue mission. One crew member killed. 9 Mar. 2002.

Lt. Terri Sue Fussner, Lt. Wayne Francis Roberts, and Aviation Warfare Systems Operator 2nd Class Jason Edward Lawson in a SH-60B"Seahawk" from Helicopter Squadron Light (HSL) 46, died in crash in central Mediterranean. 12 Mar. 2002.

Yuma--FA-18A Pilot ejected during one on one Air Combat Maneuvering (ACM). Aircraft crashed on the Yuma range. The pilot was safely recovered with only minor injuries. 15 Mar. 2002.

Camp Pendleton--six marines injured when amphibious assault vehicle overturned during a training exercise on base. 19 Mar. 2002.

A Marine recruit fell out of a 1. 5 mile training run and was taken to the hospital, where he later died. 23 Mar 2002.

Sgt. Major fell out of training run and was taken to the hospital where he later died. 23 Mar 2002.

Navy SEAL Chief Petty Officer Matthew Bourgeois killed by land mine during training exercise near Kandahar, Afghanistan. Another SEAL was injured. The mine had apparently been planted by Taliban or al-Qaida forces before they fled the area in December 2000. 28 Mar. 2002.

Two propeller-driven Extra 300L aircraft from a test pilot school crashed into each other during a formation takeoff at Patuxent River Naval Air Station, MD. LCDR Christopher C. Tragna killed; LT Kevin Quarderer and two civilian crew members injured. 2 Apr. 2002.

PAX River, MD. 1 Navy death, LCDR Tragna, and a Contractor flight instructor died. Two contractor owned, contractor operated planes, were taking off in formation; one aircraft aborted and the second aircraft impacted the first. Accident occurred at 2:50 p. m. when two Extra 300L aerobatic planes being used by the school to train test pilots crashed as they attempted a formation takeoff. 9 Apr. 2002.

MA1 suffered cardiac arrest during department physical training and died shortly thereafter. 9 Apr. 2002.

Seaman recruit collapsed and died while performing physical training at Naval Station Great Lakes. 16 Apr. 2002.

QF-4S Phantom II crashed at the Point Mugu Airshow in California, killing Navy pilot CDR Michael Norman and Marine radar intercept officer CAPT Andrew Muhs. 20 Apr. 2002.

Marine lost control of government-owned-vehicle, resulting in an accident. He later died due to his injuries. 29 Apr. 2002.

Camp Pendleton. Forklift accident, Gunnery Sgt. Jones died from injuries sustained in a forklift accident in which he was trapped underneath the overturned vehicle. Jones was the 3rd Battalion supply chief for the 1st Marine Division. 7 May 2002.

Lieutenant fell out during physical training at Naval Station Great Lakes and later died. 7 May 2002.

Seabee chief petty officer collapsed during battalion run and later died at hospital. 8 May 2002.

Seven people were missing when two T-39N apparently collided midair, south of Pensacola, 1530L hrs, 2 Raytheon pilots, 1 Royal Saudi Air Force, 3 US Navy, 1 USMC. 8 May 2002.

A forklift overturned, trapping the Marine driver underneath. Injuries resulted in death. 10 May 2002.

US sailor killed when struck by a US Navy hovercraft on the first day of the Cobra Gold military exercise in Thailand. The sailor was forward-deployed to Beach Master Unit One, Detachment Western Pacific, at Sasebo, Japan. The sailor was part of a unit that operates the Navy's Landing Craft, Air Cushioned. The LCAC was transferring 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit troops, equipment and vehicles when it struck the sailor. The LCAC was from the amphibious landing ship USS Essex (LHD-2). 14 May 2002.

An armored troop carrier rolled over while making a turn resulting in the death of Cpl. Joel Puchi, who died at the accident scene on the Marine Corps base 35 miles north of San Diego. The 14-ton light armored vehicle rolled over at 2:15 a. m. as Puchi and other members of the Third Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion from the Twenty Nine Palms Marine Base trained at Camp Pendleton. 15 May 2002.

USS Dolphin (AGSS-555), a Navy research submarine that holds the record diving depth caught fire and partly flooded off San Diego, California, but the 43 people aboard were rescued. Dolphin, reported the fire and flooding at 11:30 p. m. on Tuesday as it was operating on the ocean surface about 100 miles from San Diego. The crew was evacuated by small boat to another Navy vessel. A Coast Guard helicopter rescued two crewmembers who fell into the water. Some crewmembers had injuries that Cmdr. David Koontz described as "bumps and bruises. " The fire and the flooding were controlled and the submarine was stabilized early today, military officials said. The vessel remained at the accident site, assisted by frigate Thach, and a submarine support vessel. The submarine had been on a training mission since Monday. The 165-foot-long Dolphin, stationed in San Diego, is the Navy's only diesel-electric research submarine. Commissioned in 1968, it set a record test depth of more than 3,000 feet. 21 May 2002.

F/A-18A crash destroyed aircraft near Fallon, NV. Pilot ejected and recovered with minor injuries. 6 Jun 2002.

Marine drowned while swimming ashore after helicopter cast training (jumping without a parachute from a helicopter). 8 June 2002.

At Fresno Yosemite Intl Airport, a UH-1N helicopter crashed at 1800 hrs during a search and rescue (SAR) hoist. 1 SAR crew injured, 1 civilian death. 13 Jul 2002.

One crewmember injured and a civilian killed when a UH-1N "Huey" from Naval Air Station Lenmoore, California, made an emergency landing during a search and rescue hoist. 13 Jun. 2002.

Two aircrew injured when a AH-1W "Super Cobra" from Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron 264 crashed near Marine Corps Air Station Cherry Point, North Carolina. 27 Jun. 2002.

During a trench clearing live fire operation, a Marine threw a grenade which bounced back and detonated in close proximity to the Marines in Hawaii's Pohakuloa Training Area, Range 10. Three Marines were MEDEVAC'd to Hilo Hospital and five others treated for minor injuries. The three hospitalized Marines are in good condition, with most serious injuries shrapnel wounds and one Marine who had the tip of the little finger amputated. 5 Jul 2002.

F-14B from NAS Oceana crashed off VA Beach. Two crewmembers were recovered by US Coast Guard and taken to local hospital. 8 Jul 2002.

Two UH-60 helicopters intermeshed turning rotor systems on the ground in Fallon, NV. Taxiing helo's main rotor hit a parked/turning helo's tail rotor. No major injuries--but two maintenance personnel were slightly injured by flying debris. Damage to both helicopters and a third shutdown/parked helicopter exceeds $1 million. 9 July 2002.

Marine Sgt. Major died after complaining about chest pains subsequent to performing unit physical training. 13 July 2002.

SKSN collapsed while performing physical readiness training at Reserve Center Greenville, SC; and died. 13 July 2002.

A sailor collapsed while performing mandatory physical training at Pearl Harbor. 17 July 2002.

High-Mobility, Multi-purpose Wheeled Vehicle (HUMMWV) rolled over at Camp Lejeune during rehearsal preparations for a live fire exercise. Marine Lance Cpl. was riding in the gun turret of HUMMWV when vehicle rolled over and pinned him underneath causing his death. 26 July 2002. (possibly 20 July?)

A GSM2 collapsed and died while participating in routine swim test at Naval Air Station Jacksonville, SC. 27 July 2002.

Pilot injured when T-34C Turbo Mentor of Marine Fighter Attack Training Squadron 101 crashed near Bear City, California. 6 Aug. 2002.

Midshipman 2d Class John Paul Ruggiero apparently fell from his fourth floor Bancroft Hall dormitory window and died at the Naval Academy. 18 August 2002.

Navy SEAL CDR Peter G. Oswald died during a fall from a US Army UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter while using a standard fast roping technique. 27 August 2002.

Marine Pfc. Jeremy R. Purcell was shot in the chest and killed by a live round in a blanks-only drill. Camp Pendleton, California. 28 August 2002.

One passenger killed when SH-60B "Seahawk" of Helicopter Antisubmarine Squadron Light 43 crashed into the sea while operating from USS Mobile Bay (CG-53) in the Arabian Gulf. 6 Sep. 2002.

Three crewmembers were killed when an S-3B "Viking" of Sea Control Squadron 22 crashed into the Caribbean Sea while operating from USS Harry S. Truman (CVN-75). 10 Sep. 2002.

Marine sustained fatal injuries in crash while training in a civilian aircraft. 23 Sep. 2002.

DoD news release notes that 82 personnel died in aviation mishaps in fiscal 2002.

Pilots LT. Matthew S. Shubzda and LT. Joel A. Korkowski, and weapons systems officers LT. Stephen R. Nevarez and LT Stephen N. Benson from Strike Fighter Squadron 41 died when two F/A-18F Super Hornets collided during an exercise in California. October 18, 2002.

Two AH-1W Super Cobras from Marine Light Attack Helicopter Squadron 775 collided at Laredo International Airport, TX. Four killed. 22 Jan 2003.

Columbia Space Shuttle (Mission STS-107) broke apart during re-entry to Earth's atmosphere over Texas. CDR William C. McCool (Pilot), CAPT David M. Brown (Mission Specialist), CDR Laurel B. Clark (Mission Specialist), and four non-Navy astronauts died. 1 Feb. 2003.

Seaman Ariel Morataya from USS John L. Hall (FFG 32) died at Rodriguez Zambrano General Hospital in Manta, Ecuador, of injuries suffered while on liberty. 10 Feb. 2003.

Operation Iraqi Freedom (major combat phase from 19 Mar. to 1 May 2003). Marine casualties included 26 non-hostile deaths, 15 very serious injuries, and 127 serious injuries. USNS Comfort treated 650 patients; 2 died. Fleet Hospital Three treated 600 patients; 2 died. Fleet Hospital Eight treated 1380 patients; 1 died. Some of these events involving naval personnel are detailed below.

Four Marines: MAJ Jay Thomas Aubin, CAPT Ryan Anthony Beaupre, CPL Brian Matthew Kennedy, Staff SGT Kendall Damon Watersbey, and eight British commandos died when the CH-46E "Sea Knight" Helicopter from Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron 268 crashed south of Umm Qasr, near Highway 801 in Kuwait. 21 Mar. 2003.

Navy LT Thomas Mullen Adams, an exchange officer with the Royal Navy's 849 Squadron assigned to HMS Ark Royal, died when two Royal Navy Sea King helicopters collided over international waters near Iraq. 22 Mar. 2003.

Marine Sgt. Nicolas M. Hodson from the 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade, was killed, and three other injured in a vehicle accident in Kuwait. 23 Mar. 2003.

Marine Lance Cpl. Eric J. Orlowski of the 2nd Tank Battalion, 2nd Marine Division, killed by an accidental discharge of a . 50 cal machine gun in Iraq. 23 Mar. 2003.

Marine Corporal Evan James and Sergeant Bradley Korthaus drowned in southern Iraq attempting to cross the Saddam Canal, which runs parallel to the Euphrates River, without a safety line while wearing heavy gear and rifles. 24 Mar. 2003.

PFC Francisco A. Martinez Flores, Lance Cpl. Patrick T. O'Day, and Staff Sgt. Donald C. May, Jr. 1st Tank Battalion, 1st Marine Division were killed in traffic accidents during convoy operations in the vicinity of the Euphrates River. 25 Mar 2003.

MAJ. Kevin G. Nave of 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, was killed and another injured when a US armored vehicle ran over them at night in Southern Iraq. 26 Mar. 2003.

A Marine from First Expeditionary Force was killed at night when he was hit by a High-Mobility, Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle (HMMWV) while engaged in a firefight with Iraqi soldiers in South-Central Iraq. 28 Mar. 2003.

A Marine from First Marine Expeditionary Force drowned when the High-Mobility, Multi-purpose Wheeled Vehicle (HMMWV) he was riding in rolled over into a canal in South-Central Iraq. 29 Mar. 2003.

Lance CPL. William W. White of 3rd Amphibious Assault Battalion, 1st Marine Division, was killed in a vehicle accident in Iraq. 29 Mar. 2003.

Staff SGT James W. Cawley was killed when he was accidentally struck by a High-Mobility, Multi-purpose Wheeled Vehicle (HMMWV). 29 Mar. 2003.

UH-1N "Huey" from Marine Light Attack Helicopter Squadron (HMLA)-169 crashed in Iraq. Three killed. 30 Mar. 2003.

S-3B "Viking" from Sea Control Squadron 38 of Carrier Air Wing (CVW) 2 aboard USS Constellation (CV 64) veered off the flight deck after making an arrested landing. Shortly after touching down on deck, the S-3B malfunctioned while taxiing on the carrier's flight deck and slid to the port side of the deck. The plane went over the side and hit flight deck safety netting, with the two pilots aboard ejecting into the water. The plane then followed into the water. A helicopter from Helicopter Anti-Submarine Squadron (HS) 2 was performing search-and-rescue (SAR) operations for the flight cycle and arrived on scene immediately. Both slightly injured pilots were recovered by a SAR swimmer and transported to Constellation. 1 April 2003.

Marine Lance CPL. Joseph B. Maglione was killed by a non-combat weapon discharge at Camp Coyote, Kuwait. He was assigned to Bridge Company B, 6th Engineer Support Battalion, 4th Force Service Support Group. 1 April 2003.

F-14A "Tomcat" crashed in souther Iraq owing to mechanical failure. A combat search and rescue team successfully recovered the pilot and radar intercept officer and took them to a coalition air base. Neither Navy crewmember was seriously injured. 2 April 2003.

Lance CPL. Brian E. Anderson was killed in a non-hostile accident west of An Nasiriyah, Iraq. Anderson was manning a . 50 caliber rifle on top of a 7-ton truck when the vehicle passed under and apparently snagged low hanging power lines. He was assigned to the 2nd Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion, 2nd Marine Division. 2 April 2003.

PFC Christian D. Gurtner was killed by a non-combat weapons discharge when his M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon discharged, firing one round into his chest near Al Kut in southern Iraq. Apparently, the Marine had been sleeping with his weapon when it accidentally discharged. He was assigned to the 3rd Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion, 1st Marine Division. 2 April 2003.

Marine PFC Chad E. Bales was killed in a non-hostile vehicle accident during convoy operations east of Ash Shahin, Iraq. He was assigned to the 1st Transportation Support Battalion, 1st Force Service Support Group. 3 April 2003.

Marine Corps pilot and co-pilot suffered minor injuries when their AH-1 Cobra helicopter crashed near Samarra, Iraq. The incident was not the result of hostile fire. 14 April 2003.

Corporal Jason David Mileo was shot and killed in a "friendly fire" incident after being mistaken for an enemy solder in the vicinity of Baghdad, Iraq. He was assigned to the 3d Battalion, 4th Marine regiment, 1st Marine Division. 14 April 2003.

A single-seat F-5E "Tiger II" aircraft from Fighter Squadron Composite (VFC) 13 crashed nine miles south of the Fallon Naval Air Station, Nevada, killing the pilot, LTCDR Anthony Domino. 18 April 2003.

Three Marines were killed and seven injured when a rocket-propelled grenade launcher they were firing for familiarization training malfunctioned. The incident occurred near the city of Al Kut, Iraq. The dead are: Chief Warrant Officer Andrew Todd Arnold and Chief Warrant Officer Robert William Channell, Jr., both from the 1st Battalion, 10th Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade; and Lance Corporal Alan Dinh Lam from the 8th Communication Battalion, 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade. 22 April 2003.

An explosion occurred in a trash receptacle adjacent to a Marine berthing compartment aboard USS Saipan (LHA-2) injuring 11 personnel. None of the injuries were life threatening, but one Marine was evacuated to an Army field hospital in Kuwait for treatment of a serious arm injury; the others were treated aboard. The injured personnel were members of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade. 7 May 2003.

LCPL Cedric E. Bruns, assigned to the 6th Engineer Support Battalion, 4th Force Service Support Group, was killed in a non-hostile vehicle accident in Kuwait. He was driving a pickup truck that was struck on the driver side by another vehicle. 9 May 2003.

LCPL Matthew R. Smith, assigned to Detachment 1, Communications Company, Headquarters and Service Battalion, 4th Force Service Support Group, was killed in a non-hostile vehicle accident in Kuwait. He was driving a High-Mobility, Multi-purpose Wheeled Vehicle (HMMWV) as part of a convoy to Camp Coyote in Kuwait when his vehicle struck a parked trailer. 10 May 2003.

Two First Marine Expeditionary Force Marines were killed in Iraq when unexploded ordnance they were handling detonated. LCPL Jakub Henryk Kowalik and PFC Jose Franci Gonzalez Rodriguez were killed. 12 May 2003.

LCPL Nicholas Brian Kleiboeker was killed near Al Hillah, Iraq, when he was trapped in a munitions bunker that caught fire and exploded. He had been loading ammunition from the bunker into a vehicle. He was assigned to the 2nd Combat Engineer Battalion, 2nd Marine Division. 13 May 2003.

CPL. Douglas Jose Marencoreyes died and another was injured in a truck accident. The Marines, from the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, were traveling in a large transport truck (LVS--Logistics Vehicle System) when it rolled over approximately 30 km. southeast of Al Samawah, Iraq. The Marines were traveling to a pumping station while in support of civil military operations when the accident occurred. 18 May 2003.

Ch-46 "Sea-Knight" helicopter from the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, with a crew of four, crashed shortly after take-off in the Shat Al Hillah Canal, Iraq, while conducting a re-supply mission in support of civil military operations. SGT. Kirk Allen Straseskie, on the bank of the canal, entered the water and drowned attempting a rescue of the crewmembers, all of which died. 19 May 2003.

Aviation Boatswain's Mate 3rd Class Dwayne Williams tripped and fell overboard while chasing a football, falling 70 feet into the Atlantic from USS Nassau (LHA 4) and was lost at sea about 900 miles east of Norfolk, Virginia. 23 May 2003.

Petty Officer First Class Shaun Dale presumably fell overboard from USS Nassau (LHA 4) and drowned in the Atlantic Ocean. A search and rescue effort was conducted after he was discovered missing during a routine muster. Nassau launched helicopters in support of the search, and a US Coast Guard C-130 Search and Rescue aircraft joined the search. Additionally, the ship reversed its course and retraced its previous path. 25 May 2003.

SGT. Jonathan W. Lambert assigned to Headquarters Battalion, 1st Marine Division, died from injuries he suffered when his High-Mobility, Multi-purpose Wheeled Vehicle (HMMWV) rolled over in Iraq. 26 May 2003.

Petty Officer 3d Class Doyle W. Bollinger, Jr., Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 133, died in Al Kut, Kuwait when he was handling a piece of unexploded ordnance accidentally detonated where he was working. The sailor was killed instantly and three others were injured, but stable. 6 June 2003.

Petty Officer 1st Class Raymond J. Pless died after cardiac arrest; he had complained of chest pains during routine exercise and reported to medical personnel. He was a boatswain's mate on the USS Essex at Sasebo Naval Base, Japan. 9 June 2003.

Petty Officer 3rd Class Danny E. Jones was found dead in an empty berthing space on the USS Fort McHenry at Sasebo Naval Base, Japan, where he was an operations specialist. 10 June 2003.

PFC. Ryan R. Cox, of 1st Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, died as a result of wounds received from a non-combat weapon discharge near An Najaf, Iraq. 15 June 2003.

An 18-year old sailor collapsed in Minato-Machi Cho at Sasebo Naval Base, Japan. He suffered cardiac arrest en route to the hospital and pronounced dead by hospital staff later that evening. 16 June 2003.

Captain Seth R. Michaud, an aviator with Marine Heavy Helicopter Squadron 461, was killed and 8 other US service members were wounded when an Air Force B-52 Stratofortress apparently dropped "multiple" bombs in the wrong area of Godoria Range during a Supporting Arms Training Exercise (SATEX), which is part of the routine training for personnel in Djibouti. The service members were supporting Combined Joint Task Force--Horn of Africa. 22 June 2003.

Marine Lance Corporal Gregory E. MacDonald, assigned to Bravo Company, 4th Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion, was killed when the light armored vehicle he was traveling in rolled over in Iraq. 25 Jun. 2003.

Seaman Joshua McIntosh, assigned to the Third Battalion, Seventh Marine Regiment, died in Karbala, Iraq, from a non-hostile gunshot wound. 26 June 2003.

Marine Corporal Travis J. Bradachnall, assigned to Combat Service Support Group 11, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, was killed in an explosion during a mine clearing operation near the city of Karbala, Iraq. 2 Jul. 2003.

Lance Cpl. Jason Andrew Tetrault, assigned to the 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, was killed in Kuwait in a vehicle accident. 9 Jul. 2003.

Lance Cpl. Cory Ryan Geurin, assigned to the 1st Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, died as a result of injuries received in Babylon, Iraq, when he fell 60 feet from a palace roof where he was standing guard duty. 15 Jul. 2003.

MH-53E Sea Dragon helicopter from Heavy Helicopter Combat Support Squadron (HC) 4, crashed on land approximately 10 miles west southwest of Naval Air Station (NAS) Sigonella near Palagonia, Sicily, during a routine training mission. The dead included Executive officer CDR. Kevin A. Bianchi, LT. Peter Ober, Aviation Structural Mechanic 1st Class Brian P. Gibson, and Aviation Electrician's Mate 3rd Class Samuel Cox . 16 Jul. 2003.

Navy Petty Officer 3rd Class David J. Moreno, with the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, was killed in Al Hamishiyah, Iraq, from a non-hostile gunshot wound. 17 Jul. 2003.

F/A-18C Hornet crashed at Twentynine Palms, CA, killing the pilot. 22 July 2003.

USS George Washington (CVN-33) crewman killed during repositioning of an aircraft towing dolly. 21 Nov. 2003.

Four Marines seriously injured and six other Marines treated and then released at Camp Lejeune Naval Hospital, NC, as a result of a High-Mobility, Multi-purpose Wheeled Vehicle (HMMWV) running off Route US 17 and striking the side of a bridge. The driver, who lost control of the vehicle, was based at Camp Geiger, a training base adjacent to Camp Lejeune. The other nine Marines in the vehicle were students at Camp Geiger. 9 Aug. 2003.

During landing of an F/A-18C Hornet from VFA-106 on USS George Washington (CVN-73) in the Virginia Capes, an arresting wire broke. Several crewmen on deck were injured. 11 Sep. 2003.

UH-1N Huey from Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron 166 crashed at Camp Pendleton, CA. 4 killed. 22 Jan. 2004.

Seaman Apprentice George C. Schultz died from burn injuries sustained in an accident after he fell into a utility trench housing steam pipes at Naval Station Norfolk. He was stationed aboard the guided-missile cruiser USS Monterey (CG 61). 26 Jan. 2004.

Marine Forces Pacific UC-35 crashed at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar, CA. Four personnel were killed. 10 Mar. 2004.

USS Pinckney (DDG 91) pre-commissioning unit personnel traveling by bus to Beaufort National Cemetery for a wreath-laying ceremony in honor of the ship's namesake, who is buried there, collided with a truck on US Route 17 about 20 miles north of Beaufort, SC. Three sailors were killed, 24 were treated at area hospitals, and 47 suffered minor injuries. 12 Mar. 2004.

F/A-18 Hornet of Strike Fighter Squadron 203 crashed on a low-level navigation flight training mission. The pilot ejected, but broke a leg. 29 Mar. 2004.

CDR Adrian B. Szwec died of a non-combat related incident. He was assigned to Naval Hospital Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. 12 Apr. 2004.

F/A-18A Hornet from Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 112 and pilot were lost while operating in southern California. 21 Apr. 2004.

Marine PFC Michael M. Carey, assigned to the 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, apparently drowned in a canal in Iraq. 18 May 2004.

F/A-18A Hornet from Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 115 and pilot were lost at sea during night operations in the Atlantic Ocean. 27 Jun. 2004.

F/A-18C Hornet from Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 122 departed the runway and overturned upon landing at Marine Corps Air Station Beaufort, SC. The pilot was killed. 28 Jun 2004.

A civilian employee of the Navy died when he fell 70 feet from the main mast of USS Constitution while performing maintenance on the mast and rigging. 29 Jun. 2004

CPL Terry Holmes, SGT Krisna Nachampassak, PFC Christopher J. Reed, and Staff Sgt. died in a non-combat related vehicle accident in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. They were assigned to 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force. 10 July 2004.

Lance CPL Dustin R. Fitzgerald died, in a non-combat related vehicle incident in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. He was assigned to Battalion Landing Team 1/2, 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit. 18 Aug 2004.

Gunnery SGT. Edward T. Reeder died in a non-combat related vehicle incident in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. He was assigned to Headquarters and Service Battalion, 1st Force Service Support Group, I Marine Expeditionary Force. 21 Aug. 2004.

Lance CPL Nickalous N. Aldrich died from a non-hostile vehicle accident in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. He was assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force. 27 Aug. 2004.

PFC Kenneth L. Sickels died in a non-combat related incident in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. He was assigned to 1st Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division. 27 Sep. 2004.

A sailor was injured when run over by a VFA-82 F/A-18C Hornet while it was being towed on USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN-72). 19 Oct. 2004.

Lance CPL Richard P. Slocum died due to a non-combat related vehicle accident near Abu Gharib, Iraq. He was assigned to 1st Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment, 3rd Marine Division, III Marine Expeditionary Force. 24 Oct 2004.

Lance CPL Jeffrey Lam died as a result of a non-hostile vehicle incident in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. He was assigned to the Marine Corps Reserve's 6th Communications Battalion, 4th Force Service Support Group. 8 Nov. 2004.

Lance CPL Nicholas H. Anderson died in a vehicle incident while conducting combat operations in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. He was assigned to 1st Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force. 12 Nov. 2004.

Lance CPL Jordan D. Winkler died due to a non-combat related incident at Camp Fallujah, Iraq. He was assigned to Combat Service Support Battalion 1, Combat Service Support Group 11, 1st Force Service Support Group, I Marine Expeditionary Force. 26 Nov. 2004.

Staff Sgt. Jason A. Lehto, died in a non-hostile incident in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. He was assigned to Marine Forces Reserve's Marine Wing Support Group 47, 4th Marine Aircraft Wing. 28 Dec. 2004.

Navy Seaman Pablito Pena Briones, Jr died of a non-hostile gun shot wound in Fallujah, Iraq. He was assigned to 1st Marine Division. 28 Dec. 2004.

USS San Francisco ran aground south of Guam while traveling underwater (nearly instantaneous deacceleration from Flank [maximum] Speed to 4 knots). Machinist Mate 2nd Class Joseph Allen Ashley was in Aft Main Seawater Bay on Engineroom Upper Level Watch at the time of the grounding, and his body was thrown forward approximately 20 feet into Propulsion Lube Oil Bay. He suffered a severe blow to his forehead and never regained consciousness, dying two days later. 1 killed and 15 injured. 8 Jan. 2005.

CPL Paul C. Holter III died due to a non-combat related incident at Camp Ramadi, Iraq. He was assigned to 2nd Battalion, 11th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force. 14 Jan. 2005.

USS Ronald Reagan sailor Petty Officer 1st Class Benjamin J. Farrell died after being scalded with hot water while disassembling a valve in the steam plant of the ship's propulsion system. 20 Jan. 2005.

CH-53E helicopter from Marine Heavy Helicopter Squadron 361, Marine Aircraft Group 16, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing, crashed near Ar Rutbah, Iraq in a sandstorm in western Iraq while ferrying personnel from 1st Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment, 3rd Marine Division, III Marine Expeditionary Force; as well as Marine Corps Air Station, Miramar, CA. The corpsman was assigned to Naval Medical Clinic Hawaii, Marine Corps Units Detachment, Pearl Harbor. 30 Marines and 1 Navy corpsman died. The dead included Petty Officer 3rd Class John D. House CPL Stephen P. Johnson, Lance CPL Fred L. Maciel, Staff SGT Brian D. Bland, SGT Michael W. Finke Jr., 1st LT. Travis J. Fuller, CPL Timothy M. Gibson, CPL Richard A. Gilbert Jr., CPL Kyle J. Grimes, Lance CPL Tony L. Hernandez, CPL Nathaniel K. Moore, Lance Cpl Gael Saintvil, CPL Nathan A. Schubert, Lance CPL Michael L. Starr Jr., Capt. Paul C. Alaniz, Lance CPL Jonathan E. Etterling, CAPT Lyle L. Gordon, Lance CPL Brian C. Lance CPL Saeed Jafarkhani-Torshizi Jr., CPL Sean P. Kelly, Staff SGT Dexter S. Kimble, Lance CPL Allan Klein, CPL James L. Moore, Lance CPL Mourad Ragimov, Lance CPL Rhonald D. Rairdan, Lance CPL Hector Ramos, Lance CPL Darrell J. Schumann, 1st LT Dustin M. Shumney, CPL Matthew R. Smith, Lance CPL Joseph B. Spence, and CPL Timothy A. Knight. 26 Jan. 2005.

SGT Andrew K. Farrar Jr. died due to a non-hostile related incident in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. He was assigned to Headquarters and Service Battalion, 2nd Force Service Support Group, II Marine Expeditionary Force. 28 Jan. 2005.

LCDR Edward E. Jack died of a non-combat related incident aboard the USS Bonhomme Richard. He was assigned to Commander, Destroyer Squadron Seven. 29 Jan. 2005.

The aircrew of an F/A-18F Super Hornet of Strike Fighter Squadron 102 ejected safely when the aircraft departed the flight deck on Kitty Hawk (CV-63). Several personnel on the flight deck were injured. 29 Jan. 2005.

Perez Jr., died as a result of non-hostile vehicle incident in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. He was assigned to Marine Forces Reserve's 6th Motor Transport Battalion, 4th Force Service Support Group. 10 Feb. 2005.

Lance CPL Trevor D. Aston died as a result of non-hostile vehicle incident in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. He was assigned to Marine Forces Reserve's 1st Battalion, 23rd Marine Regiment, 4th Marine Division. 22 Feb. 2005.

T-45C Goshawk from Training Squadron 7 crashed at NAS Meridian, Mississippi, with one fatality. 22 March 2005.

SGT James S. Lee died in Ghazni, Afghanistan, when the Army CH-47 helicopter he was on crashed. He was attached to Marine Light Attack Helicopter Squadron 773, Marine Aircraft Group 42, 4th Marine Aircraft Wing. 6 April 2005.

Lance CPL Juan C. Venegas died as a result of a vehicle accident while conducting combat operations in Al Anbar Province, Iraq. He was attached to Regimental Combat Team 8, 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary Force. 7 April 2005.

Midshipman 2d Class Jay Michael Dixon apparently fell to his death from a campus dormitory at the Naval Academy. 9 April 2005.

CAPT Kelly C. Hinz and MAJ John C. Spahr died in a mid-air collsion of two F/A-18 aircraft over Iraq. They were assigned to Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 323, and embarked aboard the USS Carl Vinson. 2 May 2005.

Lance CPL Marc L. Tucker died as a result of a non-hostile vehicle accident in Asr Uranium, Iraq. He was assigned to 9th Engineer Support Battalion, During Operation Iraqi Freedom, his unit was attached to 2nd FSSG, II Marine Expeditionary Force (Forward). 8 June 2005.

Lance CPL Kevin B. Joyce drowned after falling into the Pech River while conducting combat operations in Afghanistan. He was assigned to 2nd Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment, 3rd Marine Division, III Marine Expeditionary Force. 25 June 2005.

A CH-53E Super Stallion of Marine Aircraft Group 29 suffered damage and some aircrew injuries when the nose landing gear collapsed while taxiing at MCAS New River, North Carolina, causing the rotor blades to hit the ground and the helicopter. 30 June 2005.

Lance CPL Efrain Sanchez died as result of a non-hostile incident at Camp Blue Diamond, in Ramadi, Iraq. He was assigned to Headquarters Battalion, 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary Force. 17 July 2005.

F/A-18E and F/A-18F Super Hornet from Strike Fighter Squadron 122 collided over NAWS China Lake, California. All three aviators ejected but one was killed. 18 July 2005.

Petty Officer 1st Class Thomas C. Hull died on board the aircraft carrier USS Nimitz in the Arabian Gulf after being medically evacuated to the carrier for a non-combat related incident. Hull was an operations specialist assigned to the USS Princeton. 2 Aug. 2005.

Lance CPL Ryan J. Nass died from a non-hostile gunshot wound at Camp Blessing, Afghanistan. He was assigned to 2nd Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment, 3rd Marine Division, III Marine Expeditionary Force. 3 Sep 2005.

Hospitalman Robert N. Martens died from injuries sustained as a passenger when his HMMWV rolled over in Al Qaim, Iraq. During Operation Iraqi Freedom this sailor was assigned to II Marine Division. 6 Sep. 2005.

Seaman Apprentice Robert D. Macrum was lost at sea from guided missile cruiser USS Princeton (CG-59) which was in the Arabian Gulf conducting maritime security operations in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. He was last seen on the evening of 12 September when the ship was underway. 12 Sep. 2005.

PVT Elijah M. Ortega died as result of a non-hostile gunshot wound at Camp Baharia, Iraq. He was assigned to 2nd Combat Engineer Battalion, 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary Force. 26 Sep. 2005.

Petty Officer 1st Class Howard E. Babcock IV died in a motorcycle accident in Bahrain. Babcock was assigned to the Naval Computer and Telecommunications Station in Bahrain. 13 Oct. 2005.

Petty Officer 3rd Class Fabricio Moreno, was killed in a single-vehicle accident in Manda Bay, Kenya. He was assigned to Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 3, Port Hueneme, California, and was deployed as part of a Combined Joint Task Force--Horn of Africa construction team. 14 Oct. 2005.

Lance CPL Christopher M. Poston died from a non-hostile vehicle accident in Hit, Iraq. He was assigned to Battalion Landing Team 2nd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit, I Marine Expeditionary Force. 17 Oct. 2005.

MAJ Gerald M. Bloomfield II and CAPT Michael D. Martino died when their AH-1W Super Cobra helicopter crashed while flying in support of security and stabilization operations near Ar Ramadi, Iraq. Both Marines were with Marine Light-Attack Helicopter Squadron 369, Marine Aircraft Group 39, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing, I Marine Expeditionary Force. 2 Nov. 2005.

Petty Officer 3rd Class Emory J. Turpin died when he drowned in the Seychelles islands. Turpin was assigned to Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 74 deployed in the Republic of Seychelles. 20 Nov. 2005.

Staff SGT William D. Richardson, died of injuries sustained from a non-hostile vehicle accident near Al Taqaddum, Iraq. He was assigned to Marine Wing Support Squadron-372, Marine Wing Support Group-37, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing. In Iraq his unit was attached to 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing, II Marine Expeditionary Force (Forward). 30 Nov. 2005.

SH-60B Seahawk of HSL-48 crashed into the water while operating off USS De Wert (FFG-45) in the eastern Pacific. Three crew members were lost at sea. 13 Dec. 2005.

T-39N Sabreliner of VT-86 crashed in Georgia during navigational training, resulting in four fatalities. 10 Jan. 2006.

PFC Michael Anthony Jordan died in an automobile accident in Manama, Bahrain. Jordan was assigned to Destroyer Squadron 50, Bahrain. 13 Jan 2006.

CPL Justin J. Watts assigned to assigned to 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, died at Forward Operating Base Haditha Dam in Iraq from an apparent non-hostile gunshot wound. 14 Jan. 2006.

F/A-18C Hornet of VFA-97 crashed at Naval Air Facility El Centro, California, killing the pilot. 18 Jan. 2006.

PVT Lewis T. D. Calapini and Lance CPL. Joshua A. Scott died from a non-hostile vehicle

accident near Al Taqaddum, Iraq. They were assigned to Anti-Terrorism Battalion, 4th Marine Expeditionary Brigade, II Marine Expeditionary Force. 23 Jan 2006.

CPL Felipe C. Barbosa died from a non-hostile vehicle accident in Fallujah, Iraq. He was assigned to 2nd Battalion, 6th Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary Force. 28 Jan 2006.

Lance CPL Steven L. Phillips died from a non-hostile vehicle accident while conducting combat operations against enemy forces near Al Qaim, Iraq. He was assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 6th Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary Force 7 Feb. 2006.

PFC Matthew L. Bertolino died when the vehicle he was traveling in was involved in a rollover while operating as part of a combat patrol near Jalalabad, Afghanistan. He was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment, 3rd Marine Division, III Marine Expeditionary Force. 9 Feb. 2006.

Eight marines died when two CH-53 helicopters crashed into the Gulf of Aden in the vicinity of Ras Siyyan, northern Djibouti, while flying a training mission in the Godoria Range area. The Marines were deployed to Djibouti as part of the Combined Joint Task Force-Horn of Africa. They were assigned to Marine Heavy Helicopter Squadron 464, Marine Air Group 29, 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing, II Marine Expeditionary Force. The dead included 1st LT Brandon R. Dronet, SGT James F. Fordyce, Lance CPL Samuel W. Large, SGT Donnie Leo F. Levens, CPL Matthieu Marcellus, SGT Jonathan E. McColley, Lance CPL Nicholas J. Sovie, and CAPT Bryan D. Willard. Two US Air Force personnel were also killed. 17 Feb. 2006.

Lance CPL Matthew A. Snyder died from a non combat-related vehicle accident in Al Anbar province, Iraq. He was assigned to Combat Service Support Group-1, 1st Marine Logistics Group, I Marine Expeditionary Force. 3 Mar. 2006.

Lance CPL Nicholas R. Anderson died in a non-hostile vehicle accident in Afghanistan. He was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment, 3rd Marine Division, III Marine Expeditionary Force. 13 Mar. 2006.

Notes:

This is a selected list of non-hostile incidents resulting in US naval personnel casualties. A comprehensive list of such incidents would require a lifetime of research in archival records at numerous repositories. For example, between 1913 and 1931, 185 officers and 137 men died in 197 flight accidents, and between 7 December 1941 and 31 December 1946, 3,257 naval aviation personnel were killed in an unknown number of aircraft crashes. Only a few of these accidents are listed in this report, however, primarily owing to the lack of easy access to detailed information. By way of comparison, 3,618 naval aviation personnel were killed in action with the enemy from 7 December 1941 to 31 December 1946. [**check WW2 statistics against document at http://www. history. navy. mil/library/online/aviation_fatal. htm**] We have attempted to include major incidents such as those involving the sinking of a commissioned ship and specific accidents involving numerous personnel. Smaller incidents are only included if data was readily at hand. The date provided at the end of each entry is the date of the accident/incident, rather than the date of death of individuals who died subsequently to the event. Data are based on incomplete and sometimes conflicting sources. Suggested additions or corrections with photocopied supporting documentation should be mailed to: Webmaster, Naval Historical Center, 805 Kidder Breese Street, Washington Navy Yard DC 20374-5060.

On 17 July 1920, following the promulgation of Navy Department General Order No. 541, the Office of Naval Operations established standard nomenclature for naval vessels. The type name and number was replaced with a letter designation and a hull number, for example "Battleship No. 5" became BB-5. This alpha-numeric hull designation system is still in use today.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/NHC/accidents.htm

[MADem]

82. That post was "too long, didn't read" and bordered on SPAM.

You do know the Navy doesn't "do" battleships anymore?

You do know that the launching protocol for a cruise missile doesn't involve sailors with sacks of gunpowder, jamming them into a breech?


I'm guessing you don't.

And motor vehicle rollovers and assorted other accidents and incidents culled from Navy Safety reports are not applicable to the very specific launch of cruise missiles at a specific point in time.

If you're going to try to make a point, you really ought to have one.

[questionseverything]

100. the point is

more than paper cuts happen

[MADem]

102. More than Paper Cuts Happen in Gomer Pyle's Marine Corps and McHale's Navy, too.

In the context of this limited engagement with Syria, though, there aren't going to be any personnel going in harm's way.

The people who are whipping up false constructs that suggest such a thing are using dishonest emotional arguments to try to press their point.

[questionseverything]

105. better change talking points

Source: The Guardian

Barack Obama portrayed his plans for US military action in Syria as part of a broader strategy to topple Bashar al-Assad, as tougher White House rhetoric began to win over sceptical Republicans in Congress on Tuesday. While stressing that Washington's primary goal remained "limited and proportional" attacks, to degrade Syria's chemical weapons capabilities and deter their future use, the president hinted at a broader long-term mission that may ultimately bring about a change of regime.

"It also fits into a broader strategy that can bring about over time the kind of strengthening of the opposition and the diplomatic, economic and political pressure required – so that ultimately we have a transition that can bring peace and stability, not only to Syria but to the region," he told senior members of Congress at a White House meeting on Tuesday.

Obama has long spoken of the US desire to see Assad step down, but this is the first time he has linked that policy objective to his threatened military strikes against Syria. It follows pressure on Monday, from senators John McCain and Lindsey Graham, to make such a goal more explicit. The apparent change of emphasis appeared to resolve some of the political deadlock on Capitol Hill on Tuesday, as House speaker John Boehner and a series of other Republican leaders announced that they would back the president's call for military authorisation from Congress.

There was more good news for Obama when secretary of state John Kerry and defence secretary Chuck Hagel got a relatively easy ride when they testified later to the Senate foreign relations committee, convened in special session to discuss the issue of military authorisation.

(snip)

Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/03/obama-strategy-assad-republicans-syria

[MADem]

106. This administration has always wanted Assad to go into exile.

What do you think a 'Yemen solution' is?

They've never advocated a chaotic free-for-all, and they aren't now, either.

If you take away the man's toys, limit his movement, make it tough for him to feel safe, then the smart thing for him to do is to take a powder. And that's been the goal for over two years.

He does have not just one, but TWO VPs, and they could keep the lights on and the streets swept while the future of Syria is hashed out diplomatically.

[avaistheone1]

39. I join you. I am making calls and sending emails right now.

I am from a military family and we are more than tired or war.

There is certainly no need for any military intervention no matter how limited in Syria. From what I have observed the US has no moral authority regarding the use of chemical weapons. Furthermore,
we are not doing a great job of taking care of our people here at home. Look at how long it is taking for our injured vets to get their benefits. There seems to be money for everything to do with war, but no money for our students, elderly, out homeless or our hungry.

This country has no qualms about letting more than 40,000 people a year die from lack of coverage for medical care. What I want to know is when is this country going to start taking care of Americans and our own business?

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

41. Phoned all my reps. today, strongly urged no strike in Syria

for all the many good reasons.

[msanthrope]

42. Are you an Oathkeeper?? nt

[another_liberal]

44. We all have to do everything we can, sir.

It is still not too late to prevent this war from starting. We have the power to prevent it, if we only try.

[grahamhgreen]

46. Roger that

[HappyMe]

47. I sent off the emails this weekend.

[Cleita]

53. Emails already on the way.

[Rebellious Republican]

57. K&R from another Vet.

[felix_numinous]

59. Rec- active military need a voice

--how more immediate are these decisions then to them and their families.

[tabasco]

61. Cool story! n/t

[mahina]

62. will do.

[Marrah_G]

63. I support you

and my brother and my son.

[Flatulo]

67. Unfortunately, as I'm sure as been pointed out extensively, the President's comments about

'red lines' and such were dumb, dumb, dumb. I'm surprised such an intelligent person didn't anticipate getting painted into a corner with those remarks.

Although I'm against intervention, doing nothing now will have downstream consequences. In the minds of these ME strongmen, any sign of weakness is seen as an opening for further mischief.

[Carolina]

72. K&R

Will follow you lead though I doubt that chickenshit chickenhawk Lindsey Graham will listen

[Mosby]

77. Cool story bro!

[DrewFlorida]

84. I am a bit puzzled it took 13 years to see the futility of waging war for peace in Iraq.

It has been abundantly clear that Iraq was a war fought for all the wrong reasons, and with false justification. Unfortunately thousands of our own young men and women were killed and injured, emotionally scarred for life and for a false goal/objective. I support our troops for carrying out their missions, although I am ashamed of America and specifically George W Bush for sending them to their deaths in vain, for his personal and political manipulations.
Now we are faced with Syria, which may have a legitimate reason for us to do something, the real question is what? What course of action is an effective answer to the problem faced by innocent human beings in Syria who are being slaughtered by chemical weapons.

I'm afraid I agree we should not send bombs, unless we can be sure to take out the chemical weapons stockpile without collateral damage. I haven't heard any proposal for American boots on the ground in Syria, but I think I would be against that also.

[Marrah_G]

121. What makes you think it took him 13 years

You don't know why he stayed in. A lot of people who have been deployed to the middle east were never in favor of Iraq or the continued war in Afghanistan.

[DrewFlorida]

135. He started the post by stating he had never reconsidered his path until Syria.

Did you forget to read the title post?

[Marrah_G]

136. I didn't miss the title

But I did miss where he said he never reconsidered until Syria.

[LongTomH]

85. Thank you for your service and for your wisdom!

I wish our leaders would consider the young people they're about to send into harm's way (And no, I don't have any illusions about this all being safe, action-at-a-distance combat!).

When you finally leave the service, please consider running for public office. We need more people in office who realize what war really means.

[pasto76]

93. BULLSHIT. bullshit sol

so invading iraq didnt make you second guess it. Maybe you were too young and dumb like every private who ever was.

Launching a ground invasion in a country - and dont forget now, the apologists continue to remind us all that Saddamn gassed his own people aka the Kurds - who had nothing to do with September 11th. Just a bunch of 'evil doers'.

we had literally ZERO reason to invade iraq. But that didnt make you stop and think.

But NOT launching an invasion...sending cruise missiles that wont even involve you and me army types, to hit military and command infrastructure, with almost zero likelihood neither you nor I will ever set foot in Syria, yeah. I totally see you wanting to not make it another seven years because of this. Sarcasm.

[Marrah_G]

123. Your snarky, nasty posts are not worth seeing anymore. n/t

[brooklynite]

95. Please explain why you didn't quit when we got involved in Libya.

And would you have been equally determined to quit if you had been serving during our involvement with Serbia?

[BlueMTexpat]

96. Good for you! I have done exactly that.

I will do it again tomorrow ... and the next day ... and the next.

Perhaps, just perhaps, our "critters" will finally understand what "democracy" is instead of continuously bowing to the corporatoacracy.

If only the US would truly honor those who serve - and have served - by providing them with the care that they not only deserve but have more than earned once they return.

[mgardener]

97. Syria

The sad part is that republicans would rather pay for and go to war to protect our freedoms

Then use the money to take care of us folks at home.

Email was sent to my reps.

[RoccoR5955]

104. Already done that. n/t

[sabrina 1]

107. We will support you by calling, writing and emailing our Reps with one messag:

'If you vote for this travesty, we will work for your opponent to make sure you never again get the opportunity to make such a tragic error of judgement'

[on point]

108. A soldiers duty is to follow (lawful) orders. A civilian's duty is to question those orders

To protect the soldiers

[annm4peace]

109. One way to end the wars is if the troops refuse to go

Those of us who have given up most of our personal lives have been protesting 12 years.

Many of us have done so as an obligation to the troops, their families. We spoke out and marched because we knew these invasions and occupation and based on lies and immoral.

Many of us did so because we worked with Veterans who attempted and committed suicides. We listened to the active duty troops of these past 12 years. We have listened the families who had military family get killed, get maimed, commit suicide, and in some cases their family members commit suicide because their military family member was killed.

And we listened to the civilians.. we listened to the civilians who visited the US from Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan and Somalia.
the civilians who's family were killed by the US, who were maimed by the US, who's communities where thrown back 300 years because of our bombing, drone attacks, propped up corrupt leaders who are killers.


*** One very effective way to end these wars is if troops refused to go and others refused to sign up, because our calls, marches, sit-ins, arrests, rallies, aren't ending the occupations, the invasions, the continued drone attacks, or Guantanamo.

http://www.couragetoresist.org/about.html

[NuclearDem]

112. Bookmarked that link.

Thanks for posting that!

[LittleBlue]

113. I salute you

Looks like we're in for a limited engagement, so hopefully you won't be in danger. Regardless, good luck, I hope you aren't involved.

[JayhawkSD]

114. I already have. n/t

[upi402]

116. done

[Cryptoad]

118. That is kinda like

you volunteer to be a pie taster and then complain you are gaining weight.

[marew]

119. Done! nt

[spanone]

122. until syria? not a frickin' thing has happened in syria.

[LibGranny]

125. Done yesterday! Also sent note to the White House - we'll see if it does any good!

[WillyT]

126. K & R !!!

[Laelth]

127. k&r for exposure. n/t

-Laelth

[magical thyme]

130. Done.

[Zorro]

131. Guess you didn't get the memo

Everyone in the military loves war, according to some of the loudest mouths on DU.

[L0oniX]

139. K & R

[uppityperson]

140. You had no concerns about invading Iraq? Seriously? Or you are just finally tired of the crap they

put you through?

[Bertha Venation]

141. Done.

Hoyer, Mikulski, Cardin have all heard from me.