It's hilarious - Kerry really expects us to buy the Koolaid

[malaise]

They can't declassify shit Markey because they're making it up. I do not believe one word
from John Kerry - not one word. The people who want to bomb who had planned to bomb since PNAC were the chief goons expect us to buy their bullshit. Nah! Sorry Obama! Not buying this BS from the warmonger country in chief.

[Dawson Leery]

1. Kerry has turned into a jackass.

Last edited Fri Sep 6, 2013, 01:55 PM - Edit history (2)

Assad is a bastard. AQ is a worst bastard.

Kerry's arguments are weak.

[NightWatcher]

3. He's turned into Powell and Rice, doing and saying whatever the boss wants to get his war

[zeemike]

48. Perhaps he was always a jackal

But put on the sheep skin for a while.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

56. The key, IMO, is that he always wanted to be president and his role model, JFK, had been

opposed to a widening of the Viet Nam war before his assignation.

In 1971, he obtained publicity by being publicly opposed to the war which had been unpopular for years. In 1972, he ran for Congress after moving into rental property in a district in which the Republican incumbent was retiring. Kerry lost but continued with his quest. When he ultimately gained position and power, he then wanted to side with those who helped him obtain his power even when it was inconsistent with his original anti-war stand in 1971.

[zeemike]

68. And being a Bones-man did not hurt.

Cause the Bush Family is the royalty of Skull and bones.

So Kerry had access to powerful people from the start...and that makes it so much easy-er to gain office.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

75. Kerry was a Bones-man? Interesting.

[sabrina 1]

80. Yes, and he was asked about that by of all people, Tim Russert when he was running against Bush.

He refused to talk about it, and Russert as was typical of him, dropped the subject.

[polichick]

57. Just like the rest of them.

[blm]

2. Question for you - were you this vocal in support of Kerry's efforts

to PREVENT war in Syria the last 8yrs? Or were you NOT really paying attention to that?

[n2doc]

6. links or it's bullshit n/t

[joeybee12]

11. +1

Some people here are getting their talking points apparently.

[blm]

16. Or...some people have been paying attention to Syria a LOT the last 8yrs.

I know the many times I posted about Syria here, there were very few responses.

[joeybee12]

21. Links? nt

[Maedhros]

25. (crickets chirping) [n/t]

[blm]

26. Link to thread that includes those many links is in reply to n2

.

[sulphurdunn]

70. So, the guy does a 180.

Now he's a cheerleader for war against Syria. What he did or didn't do for the last 8 years really has no bearing on his current position.

[blm]

107. Yes it does - he knows a helluva lot more about Assad and his current

mental state than anyone else.

Kerry was the LAST person who wanted to see Assad fail - he had Assad to the point where Assad was going to help Kerry with Mideast peace talks. Then Arab Spring changed everything

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/09/to-know-a-tyrant-inside-bashar-al-assads-transformation-from-reformer-to-killer/262486/

[sulphurdunn]

110. It doesn't matter if Kerry

sleeps with Assad, he is cheerleading another open ended war that doesn't need to be fought, that will be paid for by people who can't afford to send their kids to college, buy homes, carry health insurance, retire, take vacations or do much of anything other than work harder for less. Problems, by the way, that do not afflict people like Kerry and the rest of the warmongering monied classes he shills for and is a member of.

[blm]

111. Baloney - context matters when memes are being tossed around

by lazy minded people too dug in to show discernment and assigning motives to Kerry in order to smear him about something none of you know ANYTHING about.

Context - try applying it before you smear the one person who did FAR MORE than any one else to prevent use f force in any way in Syria.

Where were you? Were you cheering him on and his commitment to diplomatic solutions during those 8 years or were you ignoring what was going on in Syria?

Kerry tried harder than anyone ever did in Syria. It wasn't Kerry's fault that Arab Spring changed the entire region's dynamic and turned Assad back to his brutal roots.

[sulphurdunn]

115. Horseshit.

The only meme here is "trust the expert." "None of you know anything about..." is a shallow appeal to authority fallacy. But you unintentionally got one thing right. Knowing nothing about something requires trust for consent. I don't trust Kerry and I do not consent. I only now learned that St. Kerry has been tirelessly working behind the scenes to avoid what he now preaches. It's not as if we haven't been here before. Forget it. No sale.

[blm]

116. You don't know what you're talking about. You hadn't cared about Syria

in 8 years and your knee-jerk replies here are plenty proof of that.

I don't care WTF you think, you don't KNOW anything relevant.

[sulphurdunn]

117. Insults and personal attacks

are not rebuttals, and I am becoming weary of the "you don't know anything about it" canard. I'm actually an involved citizen in what is touted to be a democratic republic. If I don't know anything relevant, then I won't be for it. It's that simple and plenty of reason to give two thumbs down to what has become endless and phony "humanitarian war" in the Middle East.

[jamesalex]

119. Donate to Syrian

in 8 years and your knee-jerk replies here is plenty proof of that.

I don't care what you think, you don't KNOW anything relevant.

Donate to Syrian refugees

[blm]

12. I'm surprised you never knew this or paid attention before n2.

I have a number of links posted on this thread, n2. And you should know by now, I don't 'bullshit' - I've been paying close attention to Syria for years, especially since Kerry started getting attacked for his many efforts to engage Assad by the RW media machine.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3562064

Ya know, it's not Kerry's fault that Assad began losing his grip mentally after the Arab Spring began making him excessively paranoid. Kerry tried. I know for a fact that no one here tried and few even answered on many of the threads that were posted about Syria over the last 8 years.

Pardon me, if I notice the 'bullshit' being tossed around now by so many who never offered any support for Kerry's diplomatic efforts in Syria since 2005.

[n2doc]

17. That link says nothing about Kerry's efforts

The reason I am skeptical, to say the least, is that Kerry has not been SOS for the last 8 years, but less than 1. Neither has Obama been in office the past 8 years, but only 4 1/2. Kerry was in the Senate until this year, in fact. So Kerry must have been doing a whole hell of a lot of cowboy diplomacy on his own, to make your assertion correct. I want to see evidence, not opinion. I am aware of the 1 pic of him having a nice dinner with Assad, but not aware of any info that he was pressing Assad at that dinner to 'play nice'

[blm]

23. I said my many links in that THREAD, n2.

There are at least 6 links I posted in that thread all grouped together. Please return to that thread and view the posted links there.

Yes, he was doing his own diplomatic efforts in Syria and engaged Assad personally beginning in January 2005 because he knew where it was heading. He was attacked many times for it in the RW media.

Read the links - perhaps you'll realize why I see so many who are running on about this being the exact same thing as Bush are so dead wrong.

Here's his first approach in Jan 2005:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6802243/ns/world_news/t/kerry-meets-syrian-president/#.UiCweDnjJ64


Kerry meets with Syrian president
Senator says he is hopeful strained ties can be improved

U.S. Senator John Kerry visits Damascus following talks with President Bashar Assad in the Syrian capital on Saturday.

updated 1/8/2005 1:01:20 PM ET

DAMASCUS, Syria — Former Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry met Saturday with Syria’s president and said he was hopeful that strained U.S.-Syrian relations could be improved, provided Washington seized “a moment of opportunity” currently available in the Middle East.
The United States has accused Syria of doing too little to stop insurgents from infiltrating into Iraq to attack coalition forces. Washington also has imposed sanctions on Damascus, accusing it of seeking weapons of mass destruction and hosting Palestinian groups Washington deems to be terrorist organizations.
Syria denies the accusations but says it cannot fully control its long, porous border with Iraq.

Sen. Kerry, D-Mass., met for two hours with President Bashar Assad and then with Foreign Minister Farouk al-Sharaa, with both meetings centering on Iraq and how to prevent militants from moving from Syria into neighboring Iraq.
“I think we found a great deal of areas of mutual interest, some common concerns and some possibilities for initiatives that could be taken in the future to strengthening the relationship between the U.S. and Syria,” Kerry told reporters after meeting with al-Sharaa.

“I leave here with a sense that we can improve our relationship. There are significant possibilities, particularly with the elections in Iraq and the elections in the West Bank ... This is the moment of opportunity for the Middle East, for the U.S. and for the world. I hope that we would seize that opportunity.”
Assad stressed “the importance of dialogue between the two sides over all issues under discussion, especially those of common interest,” Syria’s official news agency reported.
>
In September, the U.N. Security Council passed a resolution calling on Syria to withdraw its troops from Lebanon and dismantle the Syrian-backed Lebanese Hezbollah guerrilla group. Syria, with some 14,000 troops stationed in Lebanon, is the main power broker in that country.
>>>>>>>

[n2doc]

32. Ok

By your link at that thread. So less than 9 months ago, after Assad had slaughtered tens of thousands of his own people by conventional means, Kerry Said "Sen. John Kerry has held up Syria as a country that could bring peace and stability to the Mideast and predicted that the now-disgraced government of President Bashar Assad would pursue a legitimate relationship with the United States."


Sounds like a fool to me. Or a tool. If Assad is this "Hitler lite" that Kerry told us today, then Kerry was fooled badly all these years. The alternative is that he does what his bosses tell him to do. But I will concede your point- Kerry was for peace with Syria before he was for war with it. Doesn't change what he said today, or the ludicrous nature of his claims.

[blm]

55. You didn't read it all - And you're not putting any of it in CONTEXT.

I have said a number of times here that Arab Spring started weighing on Assad mentally, and he became increasingly paranoid and prone to indulge that paranoia.

Kerry tried to keep Assad's grip on reality and had him close to accepting a role in peace talks between Israel and Palestine. Kerry didn't want to give up on Assad, but, what choice did Assad give him when he proved to have lost his mental grip?

You don't know any of this because you NEVER PAID ATTENTION, and now you want to sit in judgement f the ONE lawmaker from America who DID care enough to puit his ass on the line to PREVENT WAR.

When did FAIRNESS become a casualty of this site?

[GeorgeGist]

97. Kerry Failed.

Is that fair to say?

[blm]

100. Actually he was doing great with Assad till Arab Spring triggered

a paranoia in Assad that just got worse as the region's leaders were falling one by one.

Kerry even had Assad agreeing to help broker a peace deal for the Mideast. I know, that's not sexy information, little success stories, but they mean something when you're looking for CONTEXT.

Assad's losing his mental grip - Kerry feared that would happen 2 years ago, and it's happening. You want it to be about 'failure' however, that was always the chance, and Kerry didn't let the chance of failure deter him from TRYING. Who ELSE tried there? Name them. It's been 8 years, name those who TRIED, or even gave political back up to Kerry's efforts? Plenty attacked him in the RW media for it, though. Left media ignored his Syria work completely.

You all want to take slaps at the one person who did the MOST and was doing it ALONE, based on his conviction that there was a diplomatic solution to be had.

This whole narrative that he's just like Bush and Cheney and working for MIC is being spread by a bunch of know-nothings who never thought twice about Syria till now.

[atreides1]

102. Are you a forensic Psychiatrist/Psychologist?

Unless you have some actual training, then anything you say about Assad's mental condition is purely based on speculation...and is nothing more then a personal opinion!


Just saying!

[blm]

104. Whatever - you people keep switching gears because you haven't

the integrity to admit you are just now paying attention to a Syria. So anyone who was paying attention and talks about it must be dismissed.

The 'speculation' about Assad's mental health has been a concern for two years now. His wife, as well. In earlier years he wanted to be seen as refined and different from the brutal reign of his father. Kerry appealed to that side since 2005. Arab Spring triggered the decline. Understandably so, given that it was the leaders who were falling or ousted. It unleashed his brutal streak.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/09/to-know-a-tyrant-inside-bashar-al-assads-transformation-from-reformer-to-killer/262486/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/syrian-leader-assad-said-to-be-isolated-fearful-as-regime-faces-collapse/2012/12/28/dd3e98fa-508a-11e2-8b49-64675006147f_story_1.html

Syria’s state-run television channel has made the astonishing claim that the Barcelona soccer team is assisting a group of rebel fighters by delivering coded messages via its tactical formations.

At least it seems astonishing. Some believe it was an elaborate hoax, and that wouldn’t be surprising given the content.

According to Syrian state TV accusations, Lionel Messi and his Barca teammates were part of an elaborate rebel plot.

Syria continues to be stricken with internal strife, as forces backing President Bashar al-Assad combat several rebel groups hoping to overthrow the government. Yet the long struggle might have caused widespread paranoia, even on the officially sanctioned news network
http://sports.yahoo.com/soccer/news?slug=ro-rogers_barcelona_syria_coded_messages_al-dunya_031912

You might also be interested in reading this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Syria-The-Fall-House-Assad/dp/0300186517

[cali]

54. It's utter bullshit.

laughably so.

[blm]

59. Yet you still haven't named ONE PERSON who showed more effort

to engage Assad diplomatically in order to prevent use of military force in Syria than Kerry did the last 8 years. Can you, sunshine?

Should be easy since, according to you it's 'utter bullshit' Miss Never paid attention to Syria till now.

[DontTreadOnMe]

101. When you are perpetually disgruntled... facts don't mean a thing.

Sunshine can't even find Syria on the map.

[totodeinhere]

49. John Kerry has done a lot of good things during his career. But that doesn't change the fact

that his testimony today was bullshit.

[blm]

61. You're wrong. I don't recall you on Syria threads over the years.

Perhaps that is why you don't understand Kerry's position today.

[totodeinhere]

79. I understand that he is pushing the president to attack Syria. And he is wrong.

Attacking Syria will do more harm than good.

[blm]

89. You don't understand it's a last resort measure, because you

haven't been engaged on the Syria issue the last 8 years. So - to you it's an unwarranted attack.

I am very familiar with the efforts to avoid use of force the last 8 years, and the extreme difficulty of that effort since Arab Spring started to erode Assad's mental health.

[totodeinhere]

90. I have been engaged and

I resent you implication that I have not been. You don't know me. Don't make assumptions about me based upon brief comments that I have made on an Internet message board. I have no doubt that strong efforts have been made to sustain peace. But that doesn't excuse an illegal attack no matter what we may have tried to do in past. I agree with President Carter's assessment that attacking Syria without Security Council approval is illegal.

And we are not the world's policeman. Why can't some of our clients in the Middle East take action if it's so important? They would also require UN approval, but why can't the Saudis use some of the high tech aircraft that we have sold them to attack Syria? Or why not Turkey which borders Syria? Why does it always have to be the good old USA? The American people are sick of it and I don't care if it's a Democrat or a Republican in the White House. It's wrong.

[blm]

91. Whoever said 'Never again' must not have been a loyal American, eh?

.

[totodeinhere]

93. Actually I think the first person to use that phrase was Swedish. But be that as it may

Barack Obama, John Kerry, and I'm sure you too are loyal Americans. And if you don't mind my presumptuousness, I also consider myself a loyal American. This is not about who is a loyal American or who is not.

[marew]

92. +1 n/t

[grahamhgreen]

94. Really, don't give a sh#t about Syria. How bout we fix things at home first. We

got our own war criminals walkin around....

[woo me with science]

4. Two more countries on the PNAC list.

We know this fucking criminal script by heart.

[n2doc]

5. It would be funny if lives and billions of dollars weren't at stake.

I do wonder if the 1% are trying to see just how many 'true believers' there are out there in the US population who will swallow any bullshit so long as it comes from their President and his minions.


I am also gaining a greater appreciation , in political terms, for Hillary. She got out while the getting was good. If she had been required to serve up this horseshit it would have killed her 2016 ambitions. Not that I think she isn't 100% in approval of all this, but she can keep her head down and let others look like fools.

[avaistheone1]

13. Wow!

That would be cynically strategic on Hillary's part. I do notice she seems to be very quiet at this time.
She's probably waiting until the coast is clear and the decision is made, her hands will be then be clean. Hillary will play the big patriot and say we have to support the president, and urge everyone to cheer for "war".

Peachy.

[n2doc]

18. She is either lucky or has a very good 'trouble radar" n/t

[CrispyQ]

22. Isn't her presidential job interview just around the corner?

Hillary Clinton to speak to Carlyle Group investors

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/hillary-clinton-speech-carlyle-group-95763.html

Hillary Clinton is set to be the featured attraction at the private equity firm The Carlyle Group’s investor conference next month — the latest in a string of paid speeches the former secretary of state is making in the window she has to decide on a 2016 campaign.

Two sources familiar with the event confirmed Clinton’s attendance at the Sept. 9 event in Washington.

Clinton recently spoke at a conference for the private equity firm KKR, with co-founder Henry Kravis, a longtime Republican donor, acting as the moderator.

In such settings, Clinton has conducted question-and-answer sessions, as opposed to giving a canned address.
Clinton’s speaking fee is roughly $200,000

I would sure love to see the Clinton stock portfolio.

[tazkcmo]

29. Leave Brit- er Hillary alone! n/t

[dreamnightwind]

84. I hadn't seen that

If it was never posted in an OP, it should be.

[tridim]

7. Of course one of the most honest Democrats in D.C. is lying. This is Neo-DU!

I guess it's hilarious too, because everyone knows this incredibly serious issue is such a fucking knee-slapper.

[dipsydoodle]

8. An explanation as to why the UK didn't release anything may apply to the US too.

In other words its not the United States own intelligence.

There are protocols with regard to intelligence the main one being effective ownership by origin i.e. who found what and when. Without permission from the "owner" it can't be shared

If the US didn't obtain it itself then who did ?

[KittyWampus]

9. Well, Der Spiegel is stupid and Warren and Bernie Sanders. But YOU know better!

[Cha]

14. that's right. Calling Kerry a "liar" is calling Elizabeth Warren a "Liar" and

It's calling Bernie Sanders a "Liar". And, they've all imbibed the fucking "koolaid".

[whatchamacallit]

15. I remember mocking "voices of reason" just like yours

when we were lied into war with Iraq.

[tridim]

20. You do understand that BushCo is not The Obama Administration, right?

Assuming you do know that, why would you say what you just said?

[whatchamacallit]

24. Ye shall know them by their fruits n/t

[tridim]

31. Obama has ENDED two of Bush's wars, as promised.

Fruit doesn't get much sweeter.

All you're doing now is throwing rotten fruit at honest Democrats. It's pathetic.

[whatchamacallit]

37. Yeah you keep rah-rahing

your war prez.

[NuclearDem]

38. I'm sorry, but bullshit.

Iraq ended on the timeline set by the status of forces agreement well before Obama got into office.

And we still don't have a definitive date for the end of Afghanistan.

[tridim]

39. Whatever. I already know Neo-DU is insane.

Thanks for the confirmation.

[NuclearDem]

41. So, what, no argument on the facts?

Just the same tired old "Neo DU" bullshit. Got it. If you're not going to be able to actually defend the points you make, then don't make them in the first place.

[cherokeeprogressive]

66. There's no "whatever" about it. It's called the "U.S.–Iraq Status of Forces Agreement"

and it was signed in 2008. President Obama was trying to negotiate an extension of the agreement that would allow troops to stay there longer than Dec 31, 2011, but those talks collapsed on Oct 21, 2011.

Feel free to look it up. The official name of the SOFA agreement is "Agreement Between the United States of America and the Republic of Iraq On the Withdrawal of United States Forces from Iraq and the Organization of Their Activities during Their Temporary Presence in Iraq"

[SammyWinstonJack]

72. Whatever?

[cherokeeprogressive]

78. Aaaaannnnd... crickets.

[progressoid]

113. Eh,

Unless, you mean he eventually had to agree to the pact for withdrawal signed by Bush in 2008 because negotiations by the Obama administration to extend the deadline for troop withdrawal failed.

Then, ya, as promised.

[Maedhros]

28. Please read this analysis of the evidence provided by the Administration.

http://truth-out.org/news/item/18559-how-intelligence-was-twisted-to-support-an-attack-on-syria

There are some startling discrepancies in there.

[Hydra]

40. You'll have to post a map with that >:)

Or it won't have the same impact

[KittyWampus]

50. Funny how you never mock Catherina for her multitude of fuck ups.

[Hydra]

81. I don't spend 24/7 on DU

But I WAS on that day, and you managed to have a whole meme named after your failed maneuver.

Besides, I have heard accusations about Cath's posts but no one seems to be able to back them up with facts, unlike your incident with President Morales running afoul of our Gov't.

[KittyWampus]

83. Funny, same link had the voice recording from Morales pilot. As for C.'s catalog of errors….

I just edited out a prime example from yesterday but know damned well it'd get alerted for calling out another DU'er.

And I'd post a map especially for you since you decide to bring up that one post of mine from many weeks ago but the delicate flowers in your clique would just alert on that too.

[Hydra]

114. *lol*

You can post a thread for me if you posted a successful rebuttal of something. That's not a call out unless you did it in an personal way.

Yes, in your original thread there was a flight log and voice recording, but it never rebutted the main point- President Morales was denied airspace so that they could search his plane for Snowden. For more than 10 hours. At the request of a US Ambassador. Who was not fired for doing so. He did not turn around due to mechanical failure, he turned around because France denied him airspace for us.

And I saw your rather creative map and laughed at it at the time...but I'm wondering why you're still so burned about that. Obama made a mistake that day. A HUGE one. It's not the end of the world, as we've found out...but it didn't stop him from making more after that.

Let the President stand on his own. He said he wanted this job, and that he could handle it. I never had a doubt that he could, but he's got a choice to make- the right side, or the Bush side.

[xocet]

108. Here is a map. I hope that it clarifies things....

[KittyWampus]

51. Read every entry in my Journal first.

[Maedhros]

74. Okay.

When Using Chemical Weapons Is Smart Politics (How Autocrats Think)

Essentially an attempt by NYU political scientist Alastair Smith to get inside Assad's head and divine the dictator's possible motivations for launching a chemical weapons attack. Smith concludes that is was a shrewd move by Assad to consolidate his coalition of supporters. Your excerpt concludes with this:

If you take this view of Assad’s motivations, it doesn’t bode well for the potential of U.S. airstrikes to change the dynamics of the conflict or even deter future chemical weapons use. Smith feels that Assad is “probably terrified of losing some of his fighter jets, but there’s only so much the U.S. can do. The more the U.S. tries to blow stuff up, the more the Iranians will give him money and the Russians will give him hardware.”

The bolded part coincides with my own view: U.S. intervention will not have a meaningful impact.

Assad Is Not "Winning" & Is Getting Desperate. Der Spiegel

Another article attempting to divine Assad's motives, this time by focusing on the ill fortunes of war afflicting the Syrian nationalists. The article is long on conjecture, and short on hard evidence. The conclusion: Assad is losing and therefore has incentive to use chemical weapons to gain an edge. A reasonable conclusion, but far from definitive.

Syrian Refugees- 2 Million Already Into Jordan, Turkey, Lebanon.

Essentially a tallying of refuge populations and to where they have been displaced.

Of note:

But then, the USA intervening could also cause waves of refugees too.

Judge Rules Americans Have A Right To Air Travel, Takes Aim At ‘No Fly’ List

(Not relevant to Syrian discussion, but I welcome judicial review of 'No Fly' lists)

Christian School With Creationist 'Science' Quiz Closing Down For Financial Reasons

(Liberal schadenfreude over the failure of conservative idiots)

Syrian Rebels- They Aren't All Al Qaeda. Noticing Rightwing Sites Claiming This

A tallying of the various contingents of the anti-Assad forces fighting in Syria. A minority are related to Al Qaeda (Al Nusra Front and Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant), although I personally become very suspicious any time the government invokes the Al Qaeda label - it's come to mean "armed militants we don't like."

My concerns regarding the Syrian rebels center on the fate of the chemical weapon stockpiles, which are among the largest in the world (outside the U.S. and Russia, that is). If we decapitate the Assad regime, who fills that vacuum? What will they do with the stockpiles? How do we know they will be more responsible with them than Assad?

Miniature 'human brain' grown in lab

(not relevant to Syrian discussion)

Is It Possible Syrian Rebels, Not Assad, Used Chemical Weapons? (Yes, But Not Likely)

An article by George Lopez, a professor of peace studies at the University of Notre Dame. He provides some conjecture regarding various scenarios that attribute the gas attack to Rebel forces and concludes that is doesn't make much sense for them to have been responsible for the incident.

My thought is that it is hard to divine the rebels' motives, given that they are a fractious group and not operating under unified command. Some reports attribute the exposure to an accident rather than an attack. The UN inspectors have not released their findings, so until they do so there will continue to be lots of conjecture and few hard facts.

U.S. congressional leaders to receive Syria briefing on Thursday

A discussion of the (at the time) upcoming briefing with Congress.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

That's page one - do I need to keep going? Please read the TruthOut piece - it provides interesting insight into the semantics of the intelligence reports and helps parse the phrasing. Words are chosen very carefully for those kinds of reports, and the language of this report is telling.

[avaistheone1]

10. I don't believe a word of it either.

I think this rush to bomb Syria is to create more massive disaster capitalism for MIC and for the intelligence contractors. Also I think part of this effort is to get Syria out of the way in order to bomb Iran next. And another goal of the mission is to destroy Syria because Israel believes that country is in their way.

I think what Kerry gets out of it is the world's attention and that provides the ego-stroking he appears to desperately need. Kerry may long for big-paying job with the MIC after his term is up then he can be an big, important man forever, as he advises the MIC are they can keep eternal infernal wars going n forever into perpetuity.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

19. Unquestioning credulity masquerading as intelligent scepticism.

Dismissing government pronouncements out of hand is even dumber than accepting them unquestioningly, because they're true far more often than not.

In this case, we can't be certain that Kerry is a) honest, and b) right, but it's certainly the way to bet.

[tazkcmo]

34. Sorry, not a betting man

And I believe just the opposite of. Nothing is dumber than not questioning anything our government says. Not then, now or in the future. But hey, I'm just a cynic.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

44. No, you're not a cynic.

Cynicism has to apply in all directions, not just one. You're a true believer masquerading as a cynic.

[tazkcmo]

46. Lost me

A true believer in what? I think I know what you mean. You would be wrong though. But that's ok. Actually, about the only thing I believe anymore is the love I get from my Labrador. He's never lied to me before.

[Enthusiast]

27. I am so disappointed in Kerry.......nt

[BlueMTexpat]

30. I believe that Kerry actually believes what he is saying.

I never believed that with Powell, who sold out knowing exactly what he was doing.

But the DOS is still riddled but Bush II embeds who are receiving and "analyzing" the data for Kerry and Obama.

They are the ones to blame. Not Kerry, although I thought he was more intelligent than this, especially when the same-old, same-old warmongers - some dating back to Iran-Contra days (after receiving pardons for their treason, e.g., Elliot Abrams) - are pushing intervention on Syria as hard as they can.

[ProSense]

33. Gas Attack: Germany Offers Clue in Search for Truth in Syria

Are people still having a hard time believing that there was a chemical attack?

Gas Attack: Germany Offers Clue in Search for Truth in Syria

By Matthias Gebauer

German intelligence agrees with other Western agencies that the Assad regime was behind the Aug. 21 poison gas attack in Syria. One important clue was provided by a telephone conversation intercepted by German agents.

Germany has said in no uncertain terms that it will not participate in a strike on Syria without the backing of the United Nations Security Council. But the country's foreign intelligence agency, the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), agrees with the US position which holds Syrian President Bashar Assad responsible for the poison gas attacks near Damascus on Aug. 21. In a secret briefing to select lawmakers on Monday, BND head Gerhard Schindler said that while there is still no incontestable proof, analysis of the evidence at hand has led his intelligence service to believe that Assad's regime is to blame.

In the briefing, Schindler said that only the Assad regime is in possession of binary chemical weapons such as sarin. The BND believes that regime experts would be the only ones capable of manufacturing such weapons and deploying them with small missiles. The BND believes that such weapons had been used several times prior to the attack on Aug. 21, which is believed to have killed more than 1,400 people. Schindler said in the earlier attacks, however, the poison gas mixture was diluted, explaining the much lower death tolls in those assaults.

During his 30-minute presentation, Schindler offered up scenarios to explain why the Assad regime resorted to chemical weapons use, including, he said, the possibility that Assad sees himself involved in a crucial battle for Damascus. The city is besieged by rebel groups, with particular pressure coming from the east. Schindler believes it is possible that the regime ordered the use of poison gas as a way of intimidating the rebels. It could also be the case that errors were made in mixing the gas and it was much more potent than anticipated, he said.

<...>

Schindler also presented an additional clue, one that has not thus far been made public. He said that the BND listened in on a conversation between a high-ranking member of the Lebanese militia Hezbollah, which supports Assad and provides his regime with military assistance, and the Iranian Embassy. The Hezbollah functionary, Schindler reported, seems to have admitted that poison gas was used. He said that Assad lost his nerves and made a big mistake by ordering the chemical weapons attack.

- more -

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/german-intelligence-contributes-to-fact-finding-on-syria-gas-attack-a-920123.html

France releases new, 'undeniable' evidence against Syria

<...>

It accused the Syrian government of using "extremely lethal" chemical weapons -- including those containing the deadly nerve agent sarin -- on several occasions to sow "terror" among civilian populations.

"These proven attacks have shown that the forces of Bashar Assad's regime adapt their tactics and the munitions in their stocks with the aim of causing terror within the civilian population," the French report said.

"The past events and the simultaneous and massive use of chemical weapons on the night of 21 August 2013 in the eastern suburb of Damascus thus confirm that the Syrian regime has deliberately crossed a line. Our services have information, from a national source, leading us to believe that other actions of this nature could still be carried out."

The attack on was a "massive and coordinated use of chemical agents against the civilian population," it alleged, adding that evidence appeared to confirm an estimated 1,500 deaths.

- more -

http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-france-evidence-syria-20130902,0,1163653.story

Syria: Ban says UN chemical weapons experts working ‘around the clock’ to analyze evidence

3 September 2013 – Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon announced today that all biomedical and environmental samples gathered by United Nations inspectors at sites of possible chemical weapons use in Syria are now arriving at designated laboratories in Europe.

Speaking to the press at UN Headquarters in New York, Mr. Ban said that the Mission, led by Swedish scientist Dr. Åke Sellström, has worked “around the clock” since returning from Syria over the weekend to prepare the materials it gathered for analysis. All the samples will arrive at the laboratories by tomorrow. "We are doing our utmost to expedite the process," he added.

“Since the horrendous attacks in the Ghouta area of Damascus two weeks ago, the (Mission) has been working urgently to establish the facts regarding the nature and extent of any use of chemical weapons, Mr. Ban said, underscoring that, as the first probe of allegations of the use of weapons of mass destruction in the 21st century, “the Mission’s success is in everyone’s interest.”

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=45760&Cr=syria&Cr1=

[tazkcmo]

36. Nope. Plenty of evidence for that.

Two questions:

Who did? and What are we going to do about it?

I'd say the 2nd question is what this is all about.

[totodeinhere]

60. But isn't it interesting that in the quote you provided "Germany has said in no uncertain terms

that it will not participate in a strike on Syria without the backing of the United Nations Security Council." So whatever intelligence that they have is not sufficient for them to attack Syria unless the UN sings off on it. Why can't Obama be as thoughtful as the Germans are?

[DCBob]

35. warmonger??

good grief.. wtf has happened to folks here on this board??

[malaise]

42. Here's what happened

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023586585

[dreamnightwind]

85. Awesome, must see

Thank you.

[another_liberal]

53. They're all channeling general Patton . . .

"Blood and guts" Kerry is setting the tone.

Very soon DU will resound to their cheers for the start of our first cruise missile strikes. That's when I'll throw up on my keyboard.

[Warpy]

43. I don't believe a word of it, either, especially from the intelligence community

They've all lied too often and too much.

We can't afford this. The military is exhausted. And even if those two concerns weren't there, this is not a military problem and it does not have a military solution.

They need to try to stop jumping this shark right now or we're going to see all 3 branches held by Republicans in 2016.

[grasswire]

45. If they wanted our trust, they shouldn't have lied to us.

Obama is selling out Democratic issues -- issues we have held dear for generations now. It's impossible not to be cynical anymore.

[another_liberal]

47. Instead become participants . . .

Kerry says, "Americans cannot be spectators to slaughter." Is he suggesting it's better that we instead become participants in slaughter?

No thank you, Mr. Secretary!

[babylonsister]

58. Too simplistic for what's going on.

I imagine all involved wish thousands of people, and possibly counting, weren't gassed. But it happened. We either do something or nothing. Pretty simple, and extremely complicated.

I'm glad I don't have to make these kinds of decisions.

[another_liberal]

64. It would still be far better for us to do nothing . . .

Actually it is quite simple:

This is a civil war, and it is not our fight. Syria is not our country. We are not the unilateral "deciders" of how every conflict in the World should end. Despite the horrible suffering of people there, it would be far better for us to do nothing militarily than to join actively in the killing, maiming and destruction.

See, quite simple.

[green917]

105. why does the " something" have to involve bombs?

why it's it that the only possible solutions being posited on this issue are inaction or raining missiles down on them? if the Arab league wants this handled then why aren't they handling it? if the Saudi government wants Assad removed from power, why aren't they sitting up for the effort. yes, we have agreed that the use of chemical weapons is unacceptable ( and I believe that Assad is to blame for this attack). that being said, the United States army is not a scalpel, it's a broad sword and there is no way for us to know what the ramifications of an attack ( regardless of how " limited" said attack will be) on Syria will be. will it stop Assad from killing his own citizens by the thousands? probably not. Will it remove him from power by swinging the momentum to the rebels? probably not. Will it improve our standing in the region or the world at large? absolutely not! What it may cause however, is for Assad to step up his use of such banned weapons, only this time, the target could be the Golan heights rather than Syria. what do we do then? how about if Russia engages out military in the area to protect their ally? what if Iran fires on us because they have a mutual noon aggression treaty with Syria?

the simple reality is that, although the use of chemical weapons is abhorrent and should warrant a response, necessitating that said response be a missile our other military strike has zero... zero, upside and a whole lot of possible negatives that aren't being debated to the level they should. I think we need to take a hint from our closest ally and realize that this isn't our fight and we have no business fighting it. and, that doesn't even begin to tackle the financial and economic ramifications of a strike. suffice to say that any politician who votes for this incursion should be laughed out of the chamber should they ever utter another word about deficits or spending! imho, if we can't afford meals on wheels, we can't afford to play the role of team America, world police!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

52. He expects us to buy the Koolaid because he talks slowly and ponderously.

[John1956PA]

62. Someone one commented that when John Kerry opens his mouth to speak, paragraphs fall out.

The person who made that comment was not being critical, but, rather, was observing that John Kerry's speaks in the style of a Senator who has the floor.

[Jefferson23]

63. I'll have to read the transcript to be certain, but it seems no one questioned

the evidence/intel.

[jakeXT]

96. Alan Grayson demanded the tapes to the transcripts I believe.....The answer was: "classified"

#Syria#Kerry#Intel twisted for #war? Key intercept overheard Syrian milit DENYING not admitting they launched CW attack. #Congress must vote

https://twitter.com/Dennis_Kucinich/status/373508823535075328

[Jefferson23]

106. Thank you very much, I appreciate it. n/t

[CoffeeCat]

65. The PNACers asked Bill Clinton for war way back in 1998!!!

Thank you for mentioning PNAC, which at the time, was the neocon organization from which the warmongers plotted their war wet dreams.

Look at this 1998 letter to then-President Bill Clinton, begging him for war with Iraq. Clinton said no. This letter is signed by Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Bolton, Richard Perle and other assorted neocons. A rejection from President Clinton meant that they would have to wait until one of "their own" became President.

Link to letter:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

And that's just what they did. Bush Junior led the way into Iraq, and he flooded his political roster with most of the neocon-PNACers who signed that letter to Clinton.

If you read their manifesto online at www.newamericancentury.org -- they CLEARLY spell out their grand plan. They want the United States to dominate the Middle East militarily and they want control of the geopolitics in those regions. They say they want Iraq first. Then Iran. Then Syria. Then Lebanon.

They were kind enough to put their dysfunctional fantasies on their website. Everything they want--they're getting. Now they're after Syria and they're using "chemical weapons" as a justification, just as they used "mushroom clouds", "aluminum tubes" and "WMDs" to get their paws on Iraqi soil.

We are being lied to. We are being propagandized and dragged along on this neocon roller coaster from hell.

We can't say that they didn't warn us. It's all spelled out in great detail on their website. Read this portion of the plan, "Rebuilding America's Defenses," which was released in 2000. http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

[valerief]

67. I guess invading Syria won't require a Pearl Harbor type attack on us this time. nt

[dreamnightwind]

86. Thanks

Most of us here have probably seen those docs before, I know I have, but it can't be posted too much. I don't think the average American has any idea what's in those documents, so it's up to us to keep putting it out there. Some of it is willful ignorance, some of it is a captured media establishment.

[Mr.Bill]

69. Dick Cheney without the smirk. n/t

[liberal N proud]

71. It's drink the koolaid and it is sickening from the left.

[Hubert Flottz]

73. The PNAC told Clinton that the US needed a permanent base of operations in the Middle East,(Iraq)

to make sure the oil supply is secure and to protect Israel. Iraq played out, so now we're looking for a new base in the area. We spent tons of money building that base of operations across Iraq, but we never could get the Iraqi population to play ball like people in Germany, Japan and South Korea did.

1500 gunshot wounds reported in Chicago so far this year...should we launch tomahawk missiles toward the NRA?

1500 dead in Syria from gas attacks, from their own government and we're ready to launch strikes against a country where people on both sides of the confrontation despise us?

[Motown_Johnny]

76. So Assad and Putin are the ones you trust?

It is either one side or the other.

[MotherPetrie]

77. he and his boss have turned the grass blue and the sky green

[Progressive dog]

82. You called my country "the warmonger country in chief. "

You called the 2004 nominee of my party not just a liar, but someone who would never tell the truth.

I do not believe one word from John Kerry - not one word.

You said

They can't declassify shit Markey because they're making it up.

[dreamnightwind]

87. I didn't rec this post

though I agree that the need to strike Syria is just the latest B.S. from the MIC.

I don't believe Kerry or Obama are warmongers.

The more I learn, the more it looks like Zappa's statement quoted in that warmonger video (

) was right on target. I forget his exact words, basically the political establishment is the entertainment arm of the MIC.

For the most part, power does not change hands in the U.S. with elections. It lurks in the background, making policy decisions, then coming up with evidence to put in front of whoever the current administration is. They have their contingencies drawn prior to the requests for them from the POTUS. They know what the POTUS will ask for because they know the intelligence they have presented to him.

Seymour Hersch used to dive down this rabbit-hole pretty deeply, though his reporting lacked the unified theory to tie it all together (not a reporter's job, really). He goes into some of it in this article
http://www.minnpost.com/eric-black-ink/2009/03/investigative-reporter-seymour-hersh-describes-executive-assassination-ring
which also includes a link to the full half-hour talk he gave. It feels circuitous and unfocused to me, but he's one of the more credible journalists we've had and he was trying to get us to pay attention. His particular focus at that point in time was on W/Cheney and the secret activities of the JSOC (Joint Special Operations Command). More on that here: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/07/080707fa_fact_hersh?printable=true

I think even Hersch would now have to alter his view, he focused too much on what he considered unusually evil men (his words) in W and Cheney. He was no doubt correct about them, but W was little more than a stooge, the jester in Zappa's view. Now we see the same patterns with a new administration, we see the NSA scandals, we know a lot more now.

Power in this country is no longer accountable to the electorate. If that doesn't change, it's game over for any real democracy we hope to have.

Kerry is one of our guys I have always admired, so it saddens me to see him playing this role. I think he mostly believes the story that is presented to him by the people that matter. I'd say the same for Obama, though less so, hard to explain away all of the drones and the right-wing appointments he makes. But this game is much larger than either of them, and we're all in deep trouble without a truly representative government.

[Locrian]

88. this is one of those examples...

of when they think they're playing n-dimensional chess, and they're really playing checkers.

[Egalitarian Thug]

95. As Cyndi Lauper told us, Money Changes Everything. Apart from the horse face, Senator Kerry

has nothing to do with that young idealist that moved to Lowell just to run against a republican prick.

Being a part of the parasite class involves far more than money, and he's been living in that world for decades.

[Veilex]

98. Kerry is hiding behind obfuscation

Integrity needs no secrets

[NutjobMichele]

99. Tough Decision Which is why we are seeing people cross party lines

If we assume the attacks were real (and for the moment I do), and that some "line" was crossed, we do have the choices (many) but in the extreme: 1) do nothing 2) verbal stuff 3) legal or global condemnations 4) action 5) mega-action

I am pretty accepting of 4) action

A measured response to an proven (assumed proven) action.

I believe the push from President Obama and Mr Kerry will result in approval of an attack.
I have to wait to see what "A measured response" looks like.
My bet is that we bomb a limited number of military "chemical/gas" locations, which would meet my approval.

Less, and we appear to not care.
More, and we appear to take advantage of a situation for our own gain.

I do trust (93%) both of these men. We elected Obama, I am willing to give him this rope.

[n2doc]

103. I don't think he cares what the little people think

And frankly, I don't think he has cared for a long time. The only thing that matters is to go through this charade while people get their bribes. Same with the rest of these warmongering (can't say word).

[blm]

109. You didn't comprehend what you read? More likely, DIDN'T read, at all.

Did ya?

[n2doc]

112. Don't bother. You win. You are on full ignore

Enjoy your death and destruction, coward.

[jamesalex]

118. Kindly help Syrians!

I've been paying close attention to Syria for years, especially since Kerry started getting attacked for his many efforts to engage Assad by the RW media machine. Kindly help Syrians they need us we have to help people in Syria