U.N. has testimony that Syrian rebels used sarin gas: investigator

[last1standing]

(Reuters) - U.N. human rights investigators have gathered testimony from casualties of Syria's civil war and medical staff indicating that rebel forces have used the nerve agent sarin, one of the lead investigators said on Sunday.

The United Nations independent commission of inquiry on Syria has not yet seen evidence of government forces having used chemical weapons, which are banned under international law, said commission member Carla Del Ponte.

"Our investigators have been in neighboring countries interviewing victims, doctors and field hospitals and, according to their report of last week which I have seen, there are strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof of the use of sarin gas, from the way the victims were treated," Del Ponte said in an interview with Swiss-Italian television.

"This was use on the part of the opposition, the rebels, not by the government authorities," she added, speaking in Italian.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/05/us-syria-crisis-un-idUSBRE94409Z20130505

Why isn't anyone calling for targeted bombing of the rebels?

[Tx4obama]

1. Btw, that article is from MAY

and the article says: "... concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof of the use of sarin gas ..."

So, what's your point ?

Edited to fix article excerpt.

[last1standing]

2. My point is that it is just as likely the rebels used chemical weapons as Assad.

That and the point you made. The rebels likely did it months ago and not a single DUer suggested bombing them. That's called hypocrisy.

[Tx4obama]

4. There's NO 'physical' proof that the rebels used sarin

There IS 'physical' evidence that Assad has used chemical weapons

[last1standing]

7. Where is this incontrovertible proof you speak of?

I haven't seen it and neither have you.

It's most likely both sides have used chemical weapons so why don't we kill the ones who started it first?

[last1standing]

11. Since you changed your post I'll ask this:

Why do we need "physical proof" for the rebels and only "physical evidence" for Assad? Also, name this physical evidence that is so much more concrete than what I've provided.

[Tx4obama]

20. Good lord. Proof and evidence is the SAME THING.

[last1standing]

23. Not in law they aren't.

And either way you've never presented all this physical proof or evidence that Assad's use of CWs is more likely than the rebels.

[avaistheone1]

44. My understanding per the law...

Evidence is a fact or situation that suggests something might be true. Proof is a fact or situation that removes all doubt.

I don't that anything in terms of either Assad being responsible or the rebels being responsible - has risen to the level of proof imo.

[rhett o rick]

34. When you state that there is or is not physical proof, what are you basing that on? Where are you

getting your information?

[Tx4obama]

36. The article in the OP from MAY states...

"... concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof of the use of sarin gas ... "

And that was before the August 21st gas attack.
I believe blood and hair samples have been taken from the latest victims.

[tazkcmo]

37. AHAH!

What the hell is concrete suspicion?

[sabrina 1]

18. So the 'rebels' DO have access to Sarin Gas, but it doesn't matter? I thought the argument was that

they couldn't have done it because they couldn't have had access to Sarin?

Now the goal posts are being shifted again?

Now we KNOW they could have done it, but let's just carry on with the PNAC list of countries to tick off for regime change??

Unbelievable!

[Tx4obama]

19. Huh? Who said there is proof the rebels have access to sarin gas?

[sabrina 1]

28. Did you read the OP or did you think you were in a different thread?

And the UN are not the only ones stating that the 'rebels' have Sarin gas. There have been several reports to confirm that UN report this past week, that the Saudis HAVE supplied the 'rebel's with chemical weapons.

So it is clear now that there needs to be International Investigations into all this, out in the open, for the World to see. No one can claim the old 'national security' excuse for keeping secrets re who did this if it is done by the International community, which is where this belongs.

Let everyone lay out their evidence and let the world decide who is lying and who isn't.

If the US is not lying, they should welcome a thorough investigation in order to determine the facts.

If they refuse an opportunity to join in an International Investigation, then it will be clear that they are afraid their 'evidence' won't hold up to scrutiny and the world will assume they have no evidence.

[Tx4obama]

32. Yes I read the full article from MAY. The article does not state there is 'evidence or proof'

It talks about 'testimony' and 'suspicions'

[sabrina 1]

38. Testimony from eye witnesses. And what do have regarding Assad? The British Parliament

saw nothing to convince them that Assad was responsible, so they voted against sending THEIR troops on a another possible Iraq-like mission without any evidence to justify it. Cameron admitted that all he had was a 'judgement call' and some 'videos'.

Let the International Community start a thorough investigation and the US can present ITS 'evidence' for the world to see along with everyone else.

There is simply NO REASON not to do this, unless they have no evidence. Those 'rebels', actually they are mostly outsiders and Syrians are now saying they are 'destroying our country' and asking that the West stop helping them, have committed atrocities for which there is plenty of evidence.

Right now they are attacking the Kurds and driving out of Syria, they are extremists, and there is NO DUBT about that. Cameron acknowledged that when it was raised in the UK Parliament's debate, but tried to calm down members who asked 'why we should give cover to these extremists', that he would make sure no weapons would be given to them. Well, it's too late for that, especially for all the innocents they have killed.

They should be arrested and brought to the Hague for trial where the world can actually see the evidence and decide BASED ON that evidence, who is really responsible for the massacre, and who is backing the 'rebels'.

[Tx4obama]

39. The 'May' article in the OP has NOTHING to do with the August 21st gas attack.

[dreamnightwind]

48. Uh, seems to me to be relevant

If they can be reasonably shown to have access to sarin gas, whether it was May or not makes little difference, they should be fully investigated as the possible perps of the August attack.

[Scootaloo]

52. Well, the Turks for one

http://www.zaman.com.tr/gundem_sarin-gaziyla-yakalanan-5-el-kaide-militani-tutuklandi_2096280.html

ADANA

Evlerinde 2 kilo sarin gazıyla yakalanan 12 El Kaide üyesinden 5’i tutuklandı. Adana Emniyet Müdürlüğü, hafta başında El Kaide’nin Suriye’de örgütlü El Nusra Cephesi üyelerine yönelik Adana ve Mersin’de operasyon düzenledi.

Operasyon kapsamında militanların evlerindeki aramalarda, Kimyasal Silahlar Konvensiyonu tarafından yasaklanmış, vücuttaki sinir sistemlerinin dengesini bozarak felç meydana getiren bir tür gaz olan sarin bulunduğu belirtiliyor. Emniyet Müdürlüğü’nde ifadeleri alınan 12 kişiden 6’sı sağlık kontrollerinin ardından serbest bırakıldı. Önceki gün sabah adli mercilere sevk edilen 6 kişi saat 14.30’da cumhuriyet savcısına ifade vermeye başladı. Gece geç saatlere kadar süren ifadelerin ardından nöbetçi mahkemeye sevk edilen 6 kişiden 5’i tutuklandı, 1’i tutuksuz yargılanmak üzere serbest bırakıldı. El Kaide’nin El Nusra Cephesi, Suriye’deki en büyük üçüncü silahlı grup olarak biliniyor.

========================
(google translate)
Adana

12 al-Qaeda members arrested in their homes 2 pounds, 5 arrested sarin gas. Adana Security Directorate, El Nusra Front organized earlier in the week for members of al-Qaeda in Syria, the operation held in Adana and Mersin.

Under the operation of their home calls militants, banned by the Chemical Weapons Convention on the body, forming a kind of paralysis of the nervous system by disrupting the balance of sarin gas, where the report says. 6 out of 12 statements from the police headquarters and released after health checks. 6 people were referred to judicial authorities earlier in the day in the morning at 14.30 referred to the public prosecutor began. Expressions which lasted until late at night and then transferred to the court of the guard was arrested 6 people, 5, and 1 was released pending trial. Al-Qaeda's Al Nusra Front, an armed group known as the third largest in Syria.

[avaistheone1]

45. The rush to war is without key facts is very troubling.

Deja vu.

[The Straight Story]

3. Given this was from May, here is something relevant to that time:

04/25/13 06:14 PM ET EDT AP

The White House said it was still seeking to confirm the "chain of command" that led to the chemical weapons use. But officials said they were confident attacks were initiated by the Assad government, not rebels, given that they see no evidence of Assad losing control of the stockpiles.

The U.S. said the completion of a stalled U.N. investigation would be critical in confirming the use. But it's unclear whether U.N. inspectors will ever be able to conduct a full investigation in areas where there is the most evidence of chemical weapons use.

The Syrian government has so far refused to allow the U.N. experts to go anywhere but Khan al-Assal, where Assad's government maintains the rebels used the deadly agents.

Officials said the U.S. was consulting with allies and looking for other ways to confirm the intelligence assessments.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/25/syria-chemical-weapons-chuck-hagel_n_3155389.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003

A Timeline Of Chemical Weapon Allegations In Syria

http://www.neontommy.com/news/2013/08/timeline-chemical-weapon-reports-syria

[last1standing]

5. Is it any less likely the rebels used chemical weapons than Assad?

From what I've seen, the evidence is very good both sides are gassing the people. Shouldn't we at least kill the ones who started it first?

[The Straight Story]

12. Yes:

The Security Situation in the Syrian Arab Republic: Implications for U.S. National Security and U.S. Policy Options
Testimony before the House Armed Services Committee, July 17, 2013 Mona Yacoubian, Senior Advisor, Middle East, The Stimson Center

Chemical Weapons (CW) stockpiles. Syria is reported to have one of the largest chemical weapons stockpiles in the world. It possesses stocks of sarin, mustard gas, and possibly the nerve agent VX. U.S. and other intelligence agencies report with a high degree of certainty that the Syrian regime has used chemical weapons, namely sarin, on a small scale against armed opposition groups, possibly on multiple occasions.


Other gov docs on this:
http://bit.ly/17M1aW1

[last1standing]

15. That neither makes it more likely nor more logical.

Nothing in your reply shows that the rebels have any less ability to use chemical weapons as the Syrian government. As has already been posted, it would have been very easy for them to get such weaponry from the British or Saudis.

[sabrina 1]

21. You are correct. But as was the case in Iraq when credible people stated that there were no WMDs in

Iraq so the reason for invading it did not exist, they were ignored, it appears anything that contradicts the 'official message' will be ignored this time also. Then a few years from now, maybe sooner, we will be told that it was the 'rebels' who were responsible, because by then we will have to do something to get rid of them, and it will be tragically too late for all the victims, as it has been for Iraq.

Let's hope that enough people around the world do everything they can to stop this, BEFORE it is too late.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. From all I have read

I think it is both sides. But one is being ignored since that is highly inconvenient.

[kentuck]

6. Where in the world would they have gotten poison gas??

Saudi Arabia?

Then where would they have gotten it?

That's a lot of questions.

[last1standing]

8. Britain seems happy to sell the stuff to anyone willing to buy.

But SA is a good guess as well.

[kentuck]

9. Britain was supposed to have disposed of all their poisons by the end of 2012...

I had read someplace? But they could have decided to make a few bucks off some before it was destroyed, maybe?

[last1standing]

10. Britain admits to selling "dual purpose" chemicals to Assad.

Why wouldn't they sell them to the rebels they supposedly support?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/revealed-uk-government-let-british-company-export-nerve-gas-chemicals-to-syria-8793642.html

[pkdu]

17. Why?...

Because that's CT bullshit...that's why.

[last1standing]

24. You don't like an answer so it's a conspiracy theory.

It must be very comfortable in your little room.

[sabrina 1]

25. How do you know that? Do you have some inside information that contradicts reports from the UN

and from Syrian citizens, that the Saudis have been supplying the so-called 'rebels' with weapons and that they did supply them with chemical weapons, 'which they mishandled'.

The UN stated that the 'rebels' do have chemical weapons. That is no CT theory.

[pkdu]

27. I don't need inside information ...

The poster you are defending posited that UK " could have sold chemical weapons to the rebels"...pure CT.

We can have a spirited debate ...but not on this.

[sabrina 1]

30. It's also a CT to claim without evidence that Assad is responsible for this and that the 'rebels'

couldn't have done it because they 'could not get chemical weapons'. The UN report contradicts that claim. And reports from eye witnesses in Syria have confirmed that UN report regarding the Saudis supplying the rebels with chemical weapons.

So the only way to sort of all of this out, with so many different reports, is to hold International Investigations into the whole mess to determine the facts. Let everyone, including the US, bring their evidence out into the open so the world can see all of it.

And until that happens there should not even be a suggestion of any attacks on Syria.

If the US has confidence in its claims, they should be more than willing to do this.

[rhett o rick]

57. Certainty is usually the mark of a closed-minded person. Before we launch

$150 million dollars worth of missiles, I ask that we be sure. Keep an open-mind before we rush off to, at minimum, kill Syrians, and possibly start another protracted war.

Calling something CT usually means you have no evidence to refute the argument and you are trying to force an end to the discussion by labeling the others argument as CT.

Crying CT has lost it's punch.

[rhett o rick]

35. Throwing the CT flag is the last act of desperation.

If you have a decent argument, then state it. Otherwise climb back into the BOG.

[sabrina 1]

40. I know, don't you love it when someone does that rather than state THEIR case? When you have

nothing, jump to the old reliable 'CT' accusation.

It makes me laugh now because it has so lost any impact you have to wonder why anyone would drag it out again, since all it will do is to remind of the Old Bush days, when all of us were called 'CTs' by Right Wingers.

[sabrina 1]

22. Maybe the real issue we should be talking about right now is the Arms Dealing Business rather than

the RESULTS of that business.

There have been reports, coming from Syrians, that Saudi Arabia has been 'controlling the 'rebels'' and have been arming them.

So it is definitely possible that the Saudis have supplied them with chemical weapons.

There needs to be a worldwide investigation of this and the US needs to STOP talking about war. The world doesn't want it, the world wants to know the truth about all of them, going back to 2001 when the Bush gang of War Criminals started this ME invasion rolling.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. I would like to qualify this for a second

the problem with who controls what in this war is that you have many factions, why this has the potential to cross from massacre to genocide. The UN is not ready to cross into genocide, though the internal and external refugee displacement has topped that of Rwanda.

Yes, there is one faction that the Saudis more or less control with the Qataris. They are supplying them with arms, and some logistical support. You want weird, even Israel is in the party, you want real weird, FOX has tape of Golani Brigade troopers coming back home back in May. (I suspect they were making sure the two warring factions in the Golan Heights did not get out of control)

Then you have the Kurds, some are controlled by Iraqis.

You also have foreign fighters, who are coming in, some controlled by the Saudis, some are freelancers working for Al Qaida (there are several factions of Al Qaida on the ground, not just one).

And if that was not enough. You also have foreign advisors with Assad's troops, as well as hezbollah and a few other factions supporting Assad. There are some that have seen Russians outside the port of Tartos, which is their naval base.

It is quite frankly... a royal mess.

Why talking of only one faction is kind of stupid and why I say yes, Sarin was used, but the question is by who? And to be more precise by whom this time?

[sabrina 1]

13. Because they are not 'rebels' they are a proxy army sent in to destabilize the country. Same formula

as Libya.

Now that the UN has exposed them as war criminals, President Obama has a way out of all this.

There is no more reason to continue with this folly.

From the beginning, early on before the MSM even covered this, Social Media reports were that the 'rebels' had slaughtered people and the messages were asking for help.

If they go ahead now and protect these war criminals, they will become complicit. This is why Parliament refused to go along with this disaster.

[Catherina]

14. We didn't like the results. Instead we prefer our own *evidence* that has NO chain of custody

UN's Carla Del Ponte Stupefied By Syrian Opposition Sarin Use

[David__77]

16. Either way, the US can do no good by waging war against Syria.

The Democrats better listen to the people and stay the hell out.

[jsr]

26. Why do you hate Al-Qaeda?

[Hutzpa]

29. Who the fuck gave sarin gas to the rebels?

Isn't this the path we should be following instead of ramping up war talk?

[sabrina 1]

31. Yes that is the path we should be taking, unless we know and approve of it.

[last1standing]

33. Stop that crazy talk.

Don't you know we have PROOF that Assad used sarin gas? We haven't seen any of this proof or been told how this proof is better than the UN's proof but we have PROOF so...

BOMB THE FUCKERS!!!!!!!!!

[upi402]

46. I have concrete suspicions

-for all occasions.

Reuters... hmmm... not exactly beyond spreading the fertilizer.

The 1st casualty in war, is truth.

We spend billion$ on intelligence, we log every call innocent free Americans send or receive - AND WE DON'T *[color=red]KNOW[/color]*!!!!

I think we need to wait a beat.

[last1standing]

47. The funny thing is that I'm not necessarily against intervention.

I'm just against being lied and manipulated into intervention. The way Obama/Kerry are going about this thing is all the proof one needs to see in order to know it's the wrong thing to do.

[upi402]

49. Trying to find the facts

Pretty hard. Chomsky and Elizabeth Warren disagree.
WTF do I know? I actually believed Colin Powell at the UN. And I was a news junkie still back then.

[last1standing]

51. I won't pretend to have all the fact.

But I will claim to know that I'm being lied to when Kerry claims proofs that he won't reveal, when they tell one group they absolutely won't have boots on the ground and another group that they might, and when I'm told the rebels are the "good guys" when we know their numbers are made up of al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.

If there is a real cause for this operation, present the facts (not manipulations), tell the people what measures you've taken to avoid aggression (diplomacy), show Congress that you have UN or NATO support then ask for their permission before bombing anyone. I know it sounds like a lot of work but it should be difficult to go to war.

[Tx4obama]

50. Hezbollah admits Assad behind poison gas attack in Syria

Hezbollah admits Assad behind poison gas attack in Syria

German intelligence agency, the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND) agrees with the US position that the regime of Syrian President Bashar Assad was behind the Aug. 21 poison gas attack in Syria. A telephone conversation between a high ranking Hezbollah official and the Iranian embassy in Lebanon that was intercepted by BND confirmed the Syrian regime’s involvement according to a report by the Der Spiegel website.

In a secret briefing to select lawmakers on Monday, BND head Gerhard Schindler said that while there is still no incontestable proof, analysis of the evidence at hand has led his intelligence service to believe that Assad’s regime is to blame.

In the briefing, Schindler said that only the Assad regime is in possession of binary chemical weapons such as sarin. The BND believes that regime experts would be the only ones capable of manufacturing such weapons and deploying them with small missiles. The BND believes that such weapons had been used several times prior to the attack on Aug. 21, which is believed to have killed more than 1,400 people. Schindler said in the earlier attacks, however, the poison gas mixture was diluted, explaining the much lower death tolls in those assaults.

During his 30-minute presentation, Schindler offered up scenarios to explain why the Assad regime resorted to chemical weapons use, including, he said, the possibility that Assad sees himself involved in a crucial battle for Damascus. The city is besieged by rebel groups, with particular pressure coming from the east. Schindler believes it is possible that the regime ordered the use of poison gas as a way of intimidating the rebels. It could also be the case that errors were made in mixing the gas and it was much more potent than anticipated, he said.

-snip-

http://www.yalibnan.com/2013/09/04/hezbollah-admits-assad-behind-poison-gas-attack-in-syria/

Related:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/german-intelligence-contributes-to-fact-finding-on-syria-gas-attack-a-920123.html

[last1standing]

54. I don't know the credibility of that source and it still doesn't absolve the rebels.

UN inspectors say that the rebels gassed civilians. I believe them over a site I've never heard of before today.

[progressoid]

53. Cool! Maybe we can bomb BOTH sides!

[last1standing]

55. Only seems fair, doesn't it?

n/t

[HardTimes99]

56. Please, PLEASE, don't give the war mongers any ideas! - nt

[HappyMe]

58. This article is dated May 5.

[One_Life_To_Give]

59. Unfortunatly we are not these folks