Real Reporting From Syria- VICE (Ground Zero Syria: Chapter 1)

[snooper2]

ON EDIT-
Should Probably Add, Very Graphic as the Video notes- This is the face of Assad


spend a half hour watching this to help understand what's really going on,

[Claybrains]

1. I tried to watch, but I broke down in tears. n/t

[bunnies]

2. War sucks.

Do these people really need MORE bombs dropped on them?

[Aerows]

3. Not just no

but hell no. I can't fathom the reasoning of people who believe dropping more bombs on these people will "help them". It's like cutting off the heads of people who have headaches. Yeah, you stopped the headache.

[bunnies]

4. I sat through the entire 25+ minutes of that crap...

trying to figure out WTF was the point of posting it. As if we dont know what war looks like. Then there was that bit on the end about those who "let" this continue having no regard for humanity. Fuck that noise.

Im so sick of DUers posting videos and pics of dead kids and mangled people and expecting us to want to drop bombs on them. This is EXACTLY why we're against bombing them. Would it be "better" if an American missile killed those people? ugh.

[Aerows]

5. I'm probably a horrible person

but I was waiting for the description of babies being thrown out of incubators.

[bunnies]

6. Dont be silly.

Assad already blew up the incubators!

[Aerows]

7. After he gassed the doctors

the mothers and every single person that believed in life, liberty and the pursuit of justice.

The only solution is to bomb the hell out of the place!!!111

(If I need a sarcasm tag, we are in more trouble than I thought)

[bunnies]

9. We can go in and kill them the "nice" way though.

No suffering will come from OUR bombs. OUR bombs are made of flowers, glitter, and tiny kitty kisses.


There now. All better.

[snooper2]

8. So you think going after Asaad

means we drop bombs across the country like sprinkles on a cupcake?

[bunnies]

10. Well intentioned sprinkles, of course.

Gawd knows, we never get it wrong. Thats why we didnt kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Iraq.

[Aerows]

11. And you think "going after Assad"

entails only dropping bombs? History has taught us that it takes real live American soldiers to do that. Even officers have expressed misgivings, simply because there is no end game, just "drop some bombs to punish" and nothing else. That's a recipe for disaster with a side order of atrocities.

[snooper2]

12. I would recommend CIA, covert teams

[Aerows]

13. Which is illegal

of course.

Mostly because it opens the door to our own leaders, and our allies leaders to such an attack. But I'm sure you knew that already.

[snooper2]

15. Puts casualties to a minimum though

Or maybe we can get Snowy to track Assad's phone since he is super genius and he can give us the latitude and longitude

[Aerows]

16. So you approve of an illegal action

including against our own and our allies leadership. Nice to know where some folks stand.

[snooper2]

18. Sure, Sniper takes Assad out fine by me

[Aerows]

19. Noted n/t

[snooper2]

20. Bookmarked!

[Scootaloo]

51. And then?

Best case scenario? Power simply glides to another senior Baath official, continues as normal. Likely scenario? A general seizes power, continues as normal. Worst case scenario? Five baath officials and all the generals decide to seize power, Syria implodes into a bigger mess than when we started, and they start mailing the president war trophies in gratitude.

[Union Scribe]

22. Who's going after Assad?

This isn't about "regime change" remember?

[KittyWampus]

17. I'm sick of DU'ers posting pix of Colin Powell's empty vial warning of a threat that didn't exist

and comparing that to the chemical weapons that did and will kill civilians in Syria.

And the ONLY reason I ever posted a pix was to juxtapose a Lie with Reality.

[bunnies]

21. Havent seen that pic...

So I cant really comment on it. Im not surprised its being posted though thanks to the "they're gonna gas Americans!" rhetoric. I take it you think bombing Syria will "help" them?

[phleshdef]

24. I'm glad you think exposing the suffering these people are enduring is "crap"

It says a lot about you.

[bunnies]

25. I think propaganda is crap.

Think what you want.

[phleshdef]

26. This video isn't propaganda. You obviously didn't really watch it.

Either that or you are completely devoid of humanity. The shit in this video wasn't staged. Its not fake. Its not Hollywood special effects. Its not taking events out of context. I don't think you even know what propaganda actually means.

[bunnies]

28. I did watch it. The entire thing.

The kid with the stomach blown apart, the hospital bombings, the dead people. yeah. I watched it. All from the POV of the Revolutionaries who, apparently, have done nothing wrong. Assad is the only evil in Syria. Clearly.

Propaganda : Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause

[phleshdef]

29. Propaganda has to be partly or all false in order to be propaganda.

There is nothing in this video that is false from what I can tell. Obviously entire sections of cities have been destroyed by Assad. That's undeniable. Obviously, Assad started cracking down violently on otherwise peaceful protestors when this started. That's undeniable.

No one said Assad was the only evil in Syria. But he IS the Syrian government. He IS the one with the only significant military power. His regime IS responsible for this whole thing when it comes down to it. They are the ones that turned protests into a war. These are all undeniable facts.

[bunnies]

30. The dictionary disagrees with you.

There is nothing in the definition of the word propaganda that states the information spread has to be false.

propaganda [ˌprɒpəˈgændə]
n
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the organized dissemination of information, allegations, etc., to assist or damage the cause of a government, movement, etc.
2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) such information, allegations, etc.

as for this: "But he IS the Syrian government. He IS the one with the only significant military power. His regime IS responsible for this whole thing when it comes down to it. They are the ones that turned protests into a war. These are all undeniable facts."

I agree with you.

[phleshdef]

31. Not the one I'm looking at.

Propaganda

derogatory
information, esp. of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.

http://www.google.com/#q=propaganda+definition

I'm pretty sure you meant it in the derogatory sense, right? In the derogatory sense, there needs to be a misleading nature... if not, then you could call ANYTHING propaganda. I could claim you posting information to oppose Syrian intervention "propaganda" (in the event you posted such information).

[bunnies]

32. You wouldnt call that video biased agaisnt Assad?

Really?


This is the definition I generally use:
pro·pa·gan·da
noun \ˌprä-pə-ˈgan-də, ˌprō-\
Definition of PROPAGANDA
1
capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2
: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3
: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propaganda

And yes. There is a LOT of propaganda out there.

[phleshdef]

33. No, I wouldn't. Assad owns up to ordering the crackdown on the protests.

He ordered the army to crackdown on the protestors in April of 2011. The video is showing the results of that crackdown. Accuracy is not bias. This isn't a partial perspective. There were peaceful protests. Fact. Assad ordered the military to violently crack down on them. Fact. The stuff you see in the video is exactly what Assad's military carried out. Fact.

[bunnies]

35. Has he eaten any hearts yet?

Or is that still just the guys on "our" side...

[phleshdef]

36. Fuck that guy.

Theres no doubt that extremist elements have latched onto the civil war. However, that doesn't let Assad, someone with an actual government and an actual military, off the hook by any means. And it also does not in any way cancel out the innocent protestors and the people who are fighting purely in self defense against the government crackdown on peaceful protests. This is definitely not a black and white situation, but at the end of the day, Assad is still the most significant evil force in the country and its the only one that is an actual government with an actual military. Those things matter.

I don't judge all of Palestine based on the actions of the terrorists among them. And I practice that same principle here.

[bunnies]

37. I dont disagree with anything you said there.

But I still hate people using videos like this to guilt people into supporting a war. And I dont think bombing people is the right thing to do. According to rt, pro-Assad Syrians have formed human shields in areas they think we will attack. IF its true, we're going to have a lot of blood on our hands. We probably will anyway. Ive just had enough with it all, ya know?

[phleshdef]

38. I'm on the fence about military action.

I've had enough war too. But I also can't turn a blind eye to blatant humanitarian atrocities. Its a very hard thing to pick a side on because I don't know which decision will lead to the least amount of bloodshed in the long run.

And if they are forming human shields, that's a violation of the fourth Geneva convention.

[bunnies]

42. I just feel like the UN should be the one to do something.

What? I dont know. In a perfect world, Assad and his minions would be arrested and charged with war crimes.

Heres the thread on the human shields. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023596338 Could be bullshit. I dont know. Its hard to know what to believe anymore.

[snooper2]

43. I'm not trying to guilt anybody into anything, VICE is the #1 news organization in the World

Period-

Thought people should see some real reporting from the ground instead of the stupid ass conspiracy shit that gets posted here daily-

[bunnies]

47. Sorry if I misinterpreted your intentions.

I shouldnt have assumed.

[Erose999]

46. Thats not true. For example, a report containing all truthful information, but presented in a one

sided manner, could be technically "true" and still be propaganda.

[phleshdef]

49. If its purposefully presented in a one sided manner in a way that distorts the truth...

...then said report would still be false or misleading, which would make it propaganda based on the way I understand and use the word.

[Scootaloo]

52. No, propaganda is just an effort to convince someone of something

pro·pa·gan·da
noun \ˌprä-pə-ˈgan-də, ˌprō-\
Definition of PROPAGANDA
1
capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2
: the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3
: ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect

Nothing demands the information be false. Or even spun. or even information - "drink your ovaltine" is propaganda, but contains no information whatsoever.

[phleshdef]

53. See post #31.

There is another accepted definition for it when its used in the derogatory sense, and in that sense, it means that its false or misleading. And that was the context the person I was talking to used it.

[Scootaloo]

55. You also say "anything can be called propaganda"

That's actually a true statement. Including this video from VICE. it presents a viewpoint and asks you to follow that viewpoint, and as with all videos in this series by Vice, will end up with a statement of conclusions about the nation in question.

Definition and common use are different things. See for instance the word "theory." Just because people use it to mean "hunch" doesn't mean that "hunch" is actually a synonym for "theory."

Still, I'm a big fan of the Vice travel video series, and I'm glad a new installment was brought to my attention.

[phleshdef]

56. I suppose thats true...

...but typically when someone uses the word propaganda, its in the derogatory sense because its come to be a dominantly derogatory term. And in the derogatory context, its implied that there is something misleading about the information. The person I was talking to seemed to mean it that way and I disagreed.

Admittedly, this is a really stupid comparison, but its kind've like how some black people use the N word as an accepted term of endearment for one another, but if a teabaggerish white person calls a black person that, you usually know its definitely not a term of endearment. Its all about context.

[Scootaloo]

57. I've talked about propaganda a lot on DU

And hold that that imagined negative meaning of it is something that holds back the democrats, since apparently we're not willing to "sell" our positions, and instead fall into the trap that Kerry did in his presidential campaign, giving lots and lots of exposition.

I guess he got over that no-propaganda hurdle. Damn shame it happened because his boss wants to throw missiles at another country. Oh well.

[KurtNYC]

34. It's like the old school "punishment" of those who caught their kid smoking a cigarette

and then made them smoke the whole pack (!?) Insanity.

[11 Bravo]

50. You brought it up, so now I'm curious. DO you know what war looks like?

Because trust me, TV doesn't do it justice. I happen to know what war, or more precisely combat, looks like. I'm probably on your side in terms of the necessity of this possible conflict, but calling that video "crap" makes me question your bona fides when you claim to know "what war looks like". (And FYI, the sounds and the smells are damned near as bad the visuals.)

[bunnies]

54. Via stories and images my Uncle brought back from his...

many tours in Vietnam. And via stories and images my friends brought back from Iraq and Afghanistan. And via my Grandfathers abject refusal to speak of D-day despite having been there. I have smelled human decomposition and blood. Decomp is not something I can handle.

I feel I know about as much as one can know without having to experience the horrors myself. Perhaps "crap" wasnt the word I should have used. I think my frustration shows in that post. I think certain DUers are using horrific images for political purposes. Thats what I think is "crap".

[Capt. Obvious]

14. Saddam used to feed people into shredders - if you were lucky, head first

How can you be against removing him?

[phleshdef]

23. IF the Bush admin would've said "we want to remove Saddam for crimes against humanity...."

And sold THAT to the American people, got Congress to back them and got international support, then I would've been mostly okay with it.

Its the whole lying about WMDs, letting the effort in Afghanistan go to the dogs and prolonged occupation which thus caused us to be stuck in 2 wars, costing countless lives and dollars, for a decade or more that I had a problem with.

[morningfog]

40. Are you in favor of regime change in Syria?

[phleshdef]

41. At this point, yes, though I don't want it to be a unilateral US action and would prefer it happen..

...peacefully if theres any possible way in the world for that to happen. But after looking at what Assad did in the beginning of this, when he ordered the military to violently crackdown on peaceful protestors, before the civil war actually started, before extremist elements joined the civil war... just looking at the aftermath, destroyed cities, destroyed hospitals, arrested doctors for treating the wounded, without any restraint whatsoever... yes, I would like to see that son of a bitch no longer in charge.

[Yavin4]

27. Thank you for posting this. It's good to get unbiased raw journalism into the debate.

And I think that all DUers should watch it.

[morningfog]

39. But we aren't looking to end the war or topple Assad.

Or bring stability.

[Erose999]

44. Watched about 2 minutes. Its like one of those ASPCA commercials but with people. Hospitals and

breadlines are sad scenes, but they're scenes we've seen before. I really feel bad for those people, but I don't think US bombs or a US invasion will make things any better for them. This "real reporting" seems to be more of setup for a guilt trip. I would think "real reporting" would be going out and making contact with these rebel groups and finding out what they're all about. Investigating who has the chemical weapons and where the fuck they got them.

Those are the questions no one has answered.

[snooper2]

45. Well, you only watched "about" 2 minutes

[Erose999]

48. I skimmed the rest of it, avoiding footage of babies with their intestines hanging out.

Now tell me how a US bombing campaign would help that situation in any way. I'm listening.