They're selling us ten year old lies for another war.

[NightWatcher]

Iraq: Saddam was throwing babies out of incubators.
Syria: Assad is gassing the children. (Complete with pictures and video)

Iraq: We're helping defend the Kurds
Syria: We're helping the rebels

Iraq: Their oil will pay for the war
Syria: The Saudis will pay for it

Iraq: It won't last 6 months much less 6 years
Syria: It's a three day strike

Iraq: We'll be welcomed as liberators
Syria: stay tuned


Come on people, ten years ago isn't that long ago. I don't care who the President is, but we're being manipulated and we're about to be screwed into another deadly war. Iraq killed and broke enough people I knew. Please don't do this again. Once we start air strikes and things go to shit, we are going to be forced to own this war. My friend is on his 7th trip to the theatre and is missing his little girl. Can we stop coming up with reasons for young men to be shipped off to fight and die?

[leftstreet]

1. I wonder if there will be pallets of missing cash

DURec

[warrant46]

48. Where did that money Go ?

[liberal_at_heart]

2. If we keep authorizing all of these never ending wars we will eventually have to bring back the

draft. We are breaking our service men and women.

[DirkGently]

7. A tour of Vietnam was 12 months.

We have people who have been in and out of these wars for what ... 10 years or more?

We still owe the Vietnam Vets more help than they got.

How are we going to do right by people who have been at war for four or five times as long?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

15. A tour of Viet Nam

was 12 months for the Army.

[DirkGently]

19. Marine Corps 6 months.

I suspect either was long enough.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

20. No, 13 months. How did you get 6 months?

[DirkGently]

22. The Internet. Don't tell me it was wrong about

something. I've heard that happens.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_was_a_typical_tour_of_duty_in_Vietnam

For most of its personnel as the steady build-up progressed, Army eventually established the in-country tour length at 12 months. This required tour length applied to both enlisted men and commissioned officers, and equally to Regular, Reserve and National Guard soldiers. The Marines were required to serve 6-month tours, but were given incentives to serve for 13-months; most did.

Point still being we're asking a lot more of our people these days.

[phantom power]

3. I think we ought to object on artistic grounds

it's totally derivative work.

[Dragonfli]

40. On the other hand it does have a certain "camp" value. /nt

[Tx4obama]

4. I wish you wouldn't have fibbed in your OP. No one said Syria 'three days strike'

And the Bush administration DID lie about WMDs in Iraq.

We know as a fact that sarin-type gas WAS used in Syria.

Our intervention was very limited and short term in Libya. I have no doubt that Obama will do the same in Syria.

President Obama is NOT Bush.

[NightWatcher]

5. link

.http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/27/20209022-military-strikes-on-syria-as-early-as-thursday-us-officials-say?lite


Aug 27, 2013 - The U.S. could hit Syria with three days of missile strikes, perhaps beginning Thursday, in an attack meant more to send a message to Syrian

_____________________________________________________

Remember when it started as send Assad a "message", then it went to "punishment" for the gas, now it's being sold as to "degrade" his capabilities, and to level the playing field for the rebels. It's called Mission Creep and it's started already.

[DirkGently]

6. I wish that poster hadn't fibbed calling the OP a fib.

[TxGrandpa]

13. Agree with your comments!!! nt

[AnotherMcIntosh]

16. Well at least there won't be any boots on the ground,

or so we've been told.

[sulphurdunn]

10. Irrelevant

Whether or not chemical weapons were used in Syria is irrelevant. Bush lying about WMD is irrelevant. Previous limited attacks on sovereign nations are irrelevant. The fact that Obama is not Bush is irrelevant. There is only one relevant question: Does Syria pose an immanent threat to the territory and interests of the United States? I would suggest that it so obviously does not that the administration isn't even positing that argument, which is the only justifiable argument it could try and make for initiating war.

[Ocelot]

8. Fuck going to war for Saudi Arabia

I could be wrong, but I don't believe your friend took an oath to defend their oil interests.

[Coyotl]

38. Don't you mean, "Fuck going to war for Saudi Arabia again."

Who benefited the most when gasoline went from $1.00 a gallon to $4.00?

[blkmusclmachine]

9. WAR WAR WAR

Say goodbye to your retirement, folks.

Meow.

[Daniel537]

11. Not even close.

Unlike Iraq, the Syrian govt. openly admits to possessing chemical weapons, so why is it such a stretch for people to believe that such a murderous regime wouldn't deliberately target its own civilians with these weapons? The ignorance and naivete on display is astounding. Clearly some of you have never had to live under a dictatorship.

[delrem]

18. Is Syria as murderous as the USA? Think and do a tally before responding.

[lumpy]

61. Wouldn't hurt to educate yourself about Assad and his murderous leadership. We have been

fortunate to not ever having leadership who are of that horrendous caliber. You should be damned thankful you live in a country such as the US.

[delrem]

65. You didn't do the tally. You didn't even start. You just absolved the US,

just as Pres. Obama recently absolved GWB and the whole crew of monstrous war criminals that preceded him in power. And if you want to know what the term "monstrous" means, look at the US record.

I'm damned thankful that I don't live in a country such as the US. I think you're in midst of a crisis of democracy, and losing.

[elleng]

31. Thanks

[99Forever]

34. You'll be about the 4th or 5th warmonger I've asked the following:

1) You have solid, undeniable proof of who did this?

If so, post it.

2) Precisely what is your plan to end the "dictatorship?" Not some generalized crap. Step by step. HOW ARE YOU GOING TO ACCOMPLISH YOUR GOAL?

3) What is the end game? Exactly.

If you don't tuck tail and run from these questions, you'll be the very first warmonger not to.

By the way, have you enlisted and volunteered to go to the front lines when it happens?

[lumpy]

62. Who in hell would want to answer such silly questions ?

[sendero]

49. You know..

... the part that really gets me is some of you think this whole question hinges on whether or not Assad used chemical weapons.

IT DOES NOT. WE ARE NOT THE WORLD'S POLICEMEN. THE U.N. and NATO even refuse to get involved. THE REBELS ARE COMMITTING ATROCITIES ALSO.

There are wars and conflict going on all over throughout history. The reason our "leaders" want to do this has FUCK ALL to do with CHEMICAL WEAPONS. If it DID, we wouldn't have been supplying them to others to use on our enemies.

This is about BUSINESS. And I'm sick of killing innocent Americans and non-Americans to further BUSINESS interests. And I think most of the country is figuring this all out and that is why they are against this too.

[lumpy]

57. Show us where the US has been selling chemical weapons. You can't.

[sendero]

78. I can..

.. but I'm not wasting my time with the likes of you.

[Little Star]

76. Talk about being naive, you take the cake. Here watch this video.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023605841

and read this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023606037


I could go on all night giving you links but maybe you should just put down your big tall cup of Kool-Aid, that might help.

[LWolf]

12. And this time there are Democrats buying them. nt

[FiveGoodMen]

52. That's why the PTB allow a "Democrat" to win the White House

[LWolf]

80. Yes.

[Martin Eden]

14. Syria poses a "grave and gathering threat" to the United States.

Syria tried to purchase aluminum tubes, which are really only suited for building nukes.

We have learned that Syria tried to acquire uranium in Africa.

Syria has reconstituted nuclear weapons, and if we don't act we risk mushroom clouds over US cities.

The Assad regime is in cahoots with al Qaeda, who attacked us on 9/11.

Assad and al Qaeda have contacts going back 10 years.

We're invading Syria to enforce a United Nations resolution.


You're absolutely right NightWatcher, Barack Obama is GW Bush!!!
The Obama administration was clearly intent on invading Syria before Obama even took office, which is why this president has made hundreds of documented false statements to manipulate the public through fear into supporting this war. He was merely waiting for a "new Pearl Harbor" to implement this predetermined agenda.

[NightWatcher]

24. I never said Obama is gwb. I never said he wanted to go to war before he came in

I never said anything about an agenda or new Pearl Harbor. Hell I never said anything that you say.

I DID say that the path we are taking to this war looks a lot like the last march to war. The LIES we were sold last time have been recycled and are being sold to us again. Nothing that Syria has done is a threat to us. Some of our "allies" may feel threatened and are trying to get us to act on their behalf, but that is not our job nor responsibility. Last time nothing that they said turned out to be true and this has the same manufactured feel to it.

Hey, time will tell who is right, and who is wrong.

[Martin Eden]

25. "looks a lot like the last march to war" ... to you, not to me.

Worlds of difference between the two, which I pointed out.

BTW, I oppose this military action. But I also oppose hyperbole and false equivalency.

[NightWatcher]

26. I can't believe that you honestly don't see the similarities

Last time we were told that the cost to us in blood, time, and money would be negligible, but we know it was not. This time we are being told almost the exact same thing. We were also told last time that there was an urgency and a threat. We did not need to go there and did not need to sacrifice what we did. This time we are being told there is a similar urgency. We don't need to be there. A couple of our "allies" want to overthrow Assad. That is no reason for us to risk our ass and kill unknown numbers of Syrians.

Last time... We didn't need to be there.

This time... We sure as hell don't need to be there.

[Martin Eden]

28. Similarities and dissimilarities can be found in every military intervention.

When all the particulars of GW's PNAC agenda for Iraq and his administration's prolonged systematic campaign of lies is compared to Obama's call for limited strikes in response to chemical attack on civilians, the dissimilarities far outweigh the similarities.

[Nite Owl]

32. The similarity of the

arguments for Iraq and Syria are so similar that it is embarassing. It shows such a lack of respect for the American people to recycle the excuses. The reasons were wrong last time and wrong now.

[sendero]

50. You believe it is a false equivalency..

... because you have not yet figured out that ALL GOVERNMENTS LIE and this one is BARELY ANY BETTER THAN THE LAST ONE in that regard.

There is nothing FALSE about it.

[Martin Eden]

59. ALL GOVERNMENT LIE ...

... to a greater or lesser extent. The LIES that took us into Iraq were ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE GREATER than anything related to Obama/Syria.

Your ALL GOVERNMENTS LIE argument carried a step further suggests there is no differrence between a Democratic White House and a Republican White House, or between the parties for that matter.

While I would concur there is less difference than the extreme political polarization in this country would indicate, there ARE significant differences between the parties. And between GW Bush & Barack Obama. And between the action Obama wants to take in Syria & what Bush did in Iraq.

When you blur the significant differences to the extent that many here at DU are doing, the most accurate definition for that is FALSE EQUIVALENCY.

[sendero]

77. There isn't..

... (a difference between Dems and Reps) WHERE MONEY AND WAR (for money) is concerned. They both work for the 1%. And they will throw you a Gay Marriage bone or an Abortion bone now and then to make you think there is. But the proof is in the pudding, the average man is getting screwed financially by both parties pretty consistently, starting with Clinton and NAFTA and Glass-Stegall and the Commodity Futures Modernization Act and carrying through to Obama who has repeated offered up Social Security to make some kind of deal. A deal he would be making with the payroll deductions of millions for decades that the 1% do not want to pay back.

[lumpy]

60. Lets hear about all those lies by our government re. Syria. I keep hearing about those lies but

have yet to see any post pointing out those lies. Let's hear it. No response from you.

[lumpy]

51. Sincerely, I would like to know about the lies supposidly said by the present US administration.

That might be helpful if you are interested in changing people's minds about Syria. Haven't had a reply to that question as yet. Are you going to be the one to clue me ?

[Cryptoad]

17. Should any leader of a Nation who use WMD's

be punished ?

[morningfog]

35. They should be arrested and tried for war crimes.

[Cryptoad]

42. Agreed,,,

but since there is no jurisdiction for that to happen, that is no deterrent. I dont want to got to war with Syria, and I dont think we can allow Assad to do as he pleases with his WMD. Doing nothing is our worst option of all!

[morningfog]

43. There is a much, much worsr option than doing nothing.

Military strikes are the worst possible action to take. It is illegal under international law, and will further destabilize Syria as well as directly cause unknown numbers of civilian deaths.

[Cryptoad]

44. When you start using WMD

on your own people , you no longer have any protection uinder international law!

[morningfog]

46. It is not about protecting them. It is about us

Violating international law to punish international law violations. Two war crimes do not make a right.

[lumpy]

63. Glad to hear from our leading military leadership.

[morningfog]

79. The "leading military leadership" are known to lie.

Never seen a war they didn't want.

[truedelphi]

69. I really do like the option covered in ths article:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/poll-majority-of-americans-approve-of-sending-cong,33752/

[noiretextatique]

56. YES...let's start with bush and cheney

powell and rice. perhaps then we will have some credibility.

[Snake Plissken]

21. Is anyone else tired of being the Middle East's little bitch?

We have so many issues which need to be addressed in this country and here we are sprinting to be the Middle East's lap dog once again.

It's the same old worn out record being played over and over, and the media can't seem to get enough of it.

Screw the economy, screw healthcare, screw jobs, screw education, we have ourselves a war to cover fellas.

[Carolina]

30. more like Israel's bitch

[DeSwiss]

23. K&R n/t

[truedelphi]

27. Night Watcher - what you are asking for ain't gonna happen till you get

The profit out of the wars.

It is hard for me to envision how the Senate Intelligence Committee Chairwoman is not rubbing her hands with glee over the prospects of yet another "limited" war. After all the Feinstein/Blum couple garnered over 750 millions of dollars of contracts during the war on Iraq, and they were able to buy themselves a 16 million dollars mansion for themselves in the Presidio.

As far as the fact that the war will be limited, language of the provisions of the bill are being changed in order to please Senator McCain, who wants MORE o0f a war rather than a lesser war.

Sad day for America when the one voice of sanity, on this issue at least, happens to be that of Rand Paul.

[lumpy]

64. You'll get the chance to vote Mr. Sane in. Why don't you run for office ? You have so erudite.

[Carolina]

29. Yep,

Obomber and Kerry... what a team. And they they have the usual "rah, rah" media crowd hyping the "crisis"

Fool me once... though I wasn't fooled by Bush and so find this behavior by BHO all the more deplorable

Don'tcha just love how he drew a red line in the sand on this and is fighting so vigorously for it. Too bad he never exhibited the same commitment to a public option. Just shows where his heart is!

[lumpy]

67. The 'red line in the sand' was put forth many years ago when this country and most others signed

an agreement to stop the use of chemical weapons. Not good to ignore agreements with the rest of the civilized world. I know many American are willing to ignore humanitarian agreements that we make with the bulk of the civilized world by claiming it is only bull.... The outcome is those other signers losing faith in US word and losing faith in the ethics of the American people who turn away from that responsibilty.

[Carolina]

81. Oh puhleeze

The US does what it wants, treaties, agreements and laws notwithstanding. Who unleashed shock and awful on an innocent nation and has forever polluted the nation with depleted uranium?

The chemical weapons 'crisis' is a smokescreen and neither Kerry or Obomber know if the weapons were used by Assad or the rebels... but let's go ahead and drop bombs because they are so much more humane than gas

[morningfog]

33. You forgot:

Iraq: Smoking gun could be a mushroom cloud.
Syria: These chemical weapons are a threat to our national security.

[lumpy]

68. For God's sake this is not about Iraq or didn't you notice. Different times, different problem.

Too much fog?

[ProSense]

36. President Obama is lying to us, and should be impeached

"Come on people, ten years ago isn't that long ago. I don't care who the President is, but we're being manipulated and we're about to be screwed into another deadly war. Iraq killed and broke enough people I knew. Please don't do this again. Once we start air strikes and things go to shit, we are going to be forced to own this war. My friend is on his 7th trip to the theatre and is missing his little girl. Can we stop coming up with reasons for young men to be shipped off to fight and die?"

Why the hypocrisy. Everyone called for Bush's impeachment over Iraq. This is the same thing, right? Where are the calls for impeachment?

Now, I know it will never happen, but still, isn't it hypocritical not to at least call for it?

[lumpy]

70. Few know what empeachment entails. They love to fling the word around trying to prove

how intelligent they are.

[bhikkhu]

37. You don't care who the president is?

I don't think Obama/Biden on their very worst day could screw things up as badly as bush/cheney did on their best days. Of course it matters who the president is, and the example of the iraq war is a perfect demonstration. Using bush and the iraq war as an example of how no one can do anything right is a poor argument.

[lumpy]

71. I notice that people will say anything ignorant excuse to try and make an argument.

[Hekate]

41. "They"?! Surely you mean the Neo-Con Boys making the rounds of the talk shows....

... and not the President. Because he's not -- and they are.

If you have not yet seen Rachel Maddow's show tonight, I recommend it. Her last 5 or 10 minutes is a righteous, righteous rant on the subject of the Neo-cons being treated as though they have anything useful to say at all, when in her opinion (and mine, though she did not ask me) they don't have that right ever again.

[jsr]

45. You gotta do what you gotta do

[felix_numinous]

47. The war lies are always in black and white

with us/ against us, terrorist/us, allies/enemies, on and on. We forget we live in a world in full color, with many options, most of which do not become clear unless you calm down and take the time to listen, research, and practice restraint--especially in order to err on the side of not bombing.

Almost NEVER do situations look the same after taking a second and third look at it. Look at the way truth comes out, always after the killing, the financial deals, who made a killing doing the killing.

We do not HAVE to respond. That is a FALLACY that the MIC perpetrates, because it is their jobs to be armed FORCES. Their job is to force--which means other options must be aggressively sought out.

We always have choices--and suspect anyone who tells you different.

[lumpy]

53. Your post appears to be contructed of blather.

Syrians, including children were gassed beyond a doubt

Questionable whether we would be supporting the rebels at this point in time

Very doubtful we would accept money from the Saudis ( although in most conflicts most nations
will accept any kind of aid, whether money or any other kind of support

No one has said it will be a 3 day strike

Yes, the last on the list is "stay tuned"

You list is ridiculous and disingenuous

[NightWatcher]

54. re: timetable, see post #5

Re: Saudis paying for this war, see http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014585700

Source: The Washington Post

Secretary of State John Kerry said at Wednesday’s hearing that Arab counties have offered to pay for the entirety of unseating President Bashar al-Assad if the United States took the lead militarily.

“With respect to Arab countries offering to bear costs and to assess, the answer is profoundly yes,” Kerry said. “They have. That offer is on the table.”

Asked by Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-Fla.) about how much those countries would contribute, Kerry said they have offered to pay for all of a full invasion.

“In fact, some of them have said that if the United States is prepared to go do the whole thing the way we’ve done it previously in other places, they’ll carry that cost,” Kerry said. “That’s how dedicated they are at this. That’s not in the cards, and nobody’s talking about it, but they’re talking in serious ways about getting this done.

_______________________________________________________

I've got documentation for all my claims

[lumpy]

66. Yes, I heard Kerry's announcement re. Arabia's offer. As of yet the offer has not been accepted.

Maybe it will be, maybe not. That would have to be assessed as to the ramification of accepting such an offer. It is not unusual at all for countries/factions embroiled in military action to accept aid in any form. As yet the US government hasn't accepted the offer of financial help.
You really should have included that fact in your post since so many posters on DU read very little about the 'whole' of an article.

[lumpy]

72. Show me where the US has accepted the Arab's offer of money and I'll go along with you.???

The offer was made by Arabia contingent on unseating Assad. We don't know if that will be the government plan(to unseat Assad). If not then the offer of money will be probably be refused.

[lumpy]

75. Well I have asked so many people to tell me the lies that the administration has committed, but

absolutely no on has come up with the answer. So I'll assume there aren't any lies to be had.

[WinkyDink]

55. But it's a REAL WOLF THIS TIME, people! Honest!

[HardTimes99]

58. Those of us who live in SoCal tend to view life through the lens of the

motion picture camera:

[lumpy]

73. Not just in California do people use movies as history books.

Hollywood influences so many in our everyday lives, what to wear, sex, marriage/divorce, baby stuff, you name it.

[HardTimes99]

74. I know whereof you speak. Half the time I'm Rick in 'Casablanca,' and the other half Napoleon

in Napoleon Dynamite