I rode in a Tesla tonight. WOW!!!

[Ruby the Liberal]

If that is the future of gas-free cars, I am IMPRESSED!

I'm not a car fanatic (I have a 7 year old with 30,000 miles - don't drive much) and lord knows I am not in the social class that can afford it, but it blew me away. Pickup at 50 was stronger than from 0. The entire underbelly is the battery (which has an 8 year warranty).

What impressed the daylights out of me was how sleek and sturdy it was for a car with no "guts" to maintain.

The owner was showing off that and a few others (Fiskar?) he owns at a downtown fair tonight. He had his house redone in full solar so now pays nothing for both his house AND his cars.

Wow.

[Robb]

1. Must be nice, eh?

Sounds plenty cool. Hopefully these guys will pave the road for more affordable stuff for the rest of us.

[blm]

4. Not religius, but, that deserves an Amen!

.

[Ruby the Liberal]

8. Nissan Leaf is about 1/3 the price

I don't know if it is out yet?

Tesla's low end (260 miles) is about $70k but with Federal ($7,500) and state (most are ~$2,500) tax credits, that is $10k right off the top.

I would LOVE to have one of them.

[A HERETIC I AM]

56. The Leaf is out, for some months now...

I've delivered several.

Gobs of torque, VERY quick acceleration.

Go to any Nissan dealer and you will see the charging stations for them.


http://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/

[Warpy]

14. Remember those first VHS recorder/player units?

Weren't they something north of $2000? Betamax undersold them slightly but didn't become the standard. Likewise electronic calculators. The first laptops were insanely expensive.

This is what Tesla is betting on, that a vastly superior product will catch on among the wealthy and allow them to expand production, eventually producing a sedan that is practical for non plutocrats.

Things are moving in battery storage research, too.

[Ruby the Liberal]

22. I was thinking about that tonight.

Technology like cell phones, laptops, modem connectivity all bottomed out in price. 8-track to cassette to CD to digital, in just, what, 25 years? Yet cars are now 10x or so what we paid for them back in the early 80s.

Why is that?

[davekriss]

36. They have 20x the functions and features

Seat belts, a stereo system instead of a tinny AM radio, computers that greatly improve fuel efficiency, air conditioners, intermittent wiper blades, and on and on and on...

[TreasonousBastard]

44. Not really. I paid...

about $4,500 for the last new car I bought-- a '75 Dodge Dart with AC and a radio as the only options. Terrible car with problems from day 1, but it was thing we used for driving schools back then.

In April, I paid about $18,000 for a new Chevy Cruze. Not only would inflation would make my $4,500 worth $21,000 now according to the BLS Inflation Calculator, but I got the Eco, not the cheapest Cruze for $16,000-- I got power windows and mirrors, fantastic gas mileage with a fuel injected, turbined, computerized engine that has 8,000 miles between oil changes, satellite and bluetooth radio that talks to my phone (and the car has its own phone number), OnStar, and all sorts of other little things that make it a much nicer, more reliable car.

So, I figure I got a real bargain compared to that old Dart. I think everyone can say pretty much the same thing for whatever car they're buying now.

Having said that, I do drool over the thought of a Tesla. But, I live in an apartment and pay 30 cents a kilowatt for electricity so I'd have to be able to move, to make it worthwhile. If i could afford one.

[Bohunk68]

65. 30 cents/kw???

Holy moly, you're getting screwed. The town I live in has a municipal electric system that purchases it's power from NY Power Authority which has a pumping/storage station in my county. Here's my bill from July: KWH used: 317. Usage cost: 13.88. Purchase Power Adjustment (that's when the amount used exceeds the contract usage for the whole town): 6.02. Standard monthly Service Charge: 5.49. Total: 25.39 or 8 cents per kwh. If you only count the usage plus PPA, it is 6.27 cents per kwh. The big difference is getting your electric power from a municipal system or from a profit-driven system. And, our power company does make a small profit that is turned back into community services.

[TreasonousBastard]

69. Oops! I was looking at the bill crosseyed...

It's actually 18 cents a kilowatt plus a bunch of other charges, totaling 45 bucks for 165 Kw last month.

Still pretty high, though. I know people who found out the swimming pool heater costs them over 200 a month.

Greenport down the road has a municipal power co. using state power, and they don't have the flat rate any more but they are a lot cheaper.

[Warpy]

46. They have vastly increased in complexity

but still use the same fuel in the same way belching out the same problem.

I'm just hoping new battery technology matures in time.

[sendero]

66. Exactly.

.... were are only a battery-technology-breakthrough away from electric cars being a no brainer. And there is a lot of money riding on it so there are serious well-funded players in the game.

The internal-combustion engine is a rickety noisy polluty mess, time to retire them.

[bettyellen]

73. I remember a professor telling me that none of that would have happened without

porn- it was an open secret that the first wave of mass consumers spending a big chunk of $$ on new tech were dudes wanting to get home delivery- or create home made- porn. (I'm thinking of you, Bob Crane!) The stats were there, so the industry would bet on always being able to sell these people new tech for image delivery way before the rest of the market needed or wanted it. Interesting to see where we go next since that market seems to have been saturated and the internet gets you all the free or cheap porn you could want. Nothing to do with cars, your post just made me remember that.

[Warpy]

79. I think you're right about that

because I remember it driving the sale of Polaroid cameras when they first came out--you could take dirty pictures of the wife or girlfriend and not have to worry about some nosy Puritan developing the pictures.

[bettyellen]

81. yeah, he said that they would just smirk inside when they heard the bullshit reasons

people would give them for being excited about getting the newest tech. They knew exactly what people were spending
money on and what kind of VHS tapes were getting stuck in the machines, LOL.

[iandhr]

34. Sure it just takes time.

For prices to come down for stuff like this.

[think4yourself]

2. Green with envy!

Very cool.

[blm]

3. Sounds like a great deal in the long run.

This is the future the world needs.

[Ruby the Liberal]

15. If you factor in the cost of gas and maintenance

along with the tax credits, it can really make a difference.

I'm afraid to run the actual numbers. LOL!

blm

[NYC_SKP]

5. They are very impressive, I've ridden in one, too!

Quiet and amazingly powerful, and hardly anything to maintain.

Once we get the superfast chargers in place there won't me much use for traditional internal combustion engine cars.

[Ruby the Liberal]

7. The guy told me tonight

that he can 'refill' at any RV park. The home charge is a dedicated 220 line (it is 240 but can take 220) and takes about 8 hours for a full charge from 0. At the superfill, you can get a half charge (100 miles) in 20 minutes and full (260 miles) in a hour. The plan is to have all superchargers canopied with solar panels.

Their supercharger map: http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

The car comes with lifetime charges at their stations.

The future really IS here!

[NYC_SKP]

10. Last weekend a truck was pulled over with seven Model S's on the trailer.

GF and I got a good look at them from all angles.

The bottom is dead flat, they have gigantic discs.

There's a 17 inch monitor in the middle of the dash.

I would love to have one with the maximum battery pack, but I'm saving my money and running my Prius past 150,000 miles!

[Ruby the Liberal]

12. Yeah - the dash looks like a ginormous iPad.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

29. I wish they had some kind of cost numbers.

Like x number of kilowatts charge = y miles.
I haven't seen any of those.

[JohnnyRingo]

45. Tesla did the math

Since electricity usually requires some fossil fuel to produce, they figured it does 89 miles on a gallon of petroleum, and that's with 400+ hp on tap.

That should improve if their national chain of charging stations become solar powered.

That and all the other figures you were wondering about are here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_S

[Mother Muckraker]

62. Tesla Solar Supercharger is Proprietary

All their Supercharger stations are solar powered.

The problem is most supercharger stations are not located in densely populated areas where it's easy to get to. A Supercharger station is expensive; and unless their sales figures increase dramatically to fund a huge infrastructure, most Model S owners will charge at home on the greater than 50% coal fired power grid.

[JohnnyRingo]

63. I must have understood the Wikki differently

From Wikkipedia:

According to Elon Musk, “...we expect all of the United States to be covered by the end of next year [2013]” and he also said that Tesla owners’ use of the network would be free forever.

It goes on to quote rapidly increasing sales totals. With a backorder, it shouldn't be hard to find capital to ramp up production to meet demand:

The special edition Model S Signature model was sold out even before deliveries began in June 2012, and according to Tesla Motors the electric sedan is sold out through 2012. A car ordered in May 2012 would be delivered in early to mid-2013. Tesla Motors initially expected to sell at least 5,000 units in 2012 and set a sales target of 20,000 units for 2013. In April 2013, Tesla increased its 2013 sales target to 21,000 units.[15] Tesla expects global sales of 30,000 units in 2014, with 15,000 units in the United States, 10,000 units in Europe and 5,000 in Asia.

By August 2012 the carmaker was manufacturing 3 to 4 cars a day and production capacity was ramped up to 200 units a week by early November 2012. The target production rate of 400 cars per week or 20,000 per year was achieved in December 2012, and more than 3,100 vehicles were produced during 2012. A total of 2,650 cars were delivered to retail customers in North America during 2012, 4,900 during the first quarter of 2013, and 5,150 during the second quarter of 2013. During the second quarter of 2013 the production rate improved from 400 to almost 500 vehicles per week. Deliveries in Europe began in early August 2013, and the first deliveries took place in Norway, Switzerland and the Netherlands.

It's the EPA that rated the power consumption at 89 mpg of fossil fuel, not Tesla.

I thought they were initially placing station only in highly congested areas where many Teslas are located:

In June 2013, Tesla announced the goal to deploy a battery swapping station in each of its existing supercharging stations, now to be renamed Tesla stations. At an event at Tesla's design studio in Los Angeles, CEO Elon Musk demonstrated a battery swap operation with the Model S, which took just over 90 seconds each for the two cars participating in the demo. The swapping operation took less than half the time needed to refill a gasoline-powered car used for comparison purposes during the event. The Tesla model S was designed from the beginning to support fast battery swapping, but was kept a secret until June 2013.

There were eight initial supercharger stations around the United States, located at strategic points on the Boston-to-Washington and Los Angeles-to-San Francisco highway cooridors. By mid-July 2013, 15 were open across the United States, with the number expected to nearly double by the end of the summer. The company has also stated that there will be stations along the Highway 401 corridor between Toronto and Montreal in Canada by 2014.

The first Tesla Stations with battery-swapping capability will be piloted in California later in 2013, just as Tesla opened its initial Supercharger stations along Interstate 5 in California where, according to Tesla, a large number of Model S sedans make the San Francisco-Los Angeles trip regularly (quickly followed by the Washington, DC to Boston corridor). Each swapping station will cost US$500,000 and will have about 50 batteries available without requiring reservations.

Elon Musk said the service would be offered for the price of about 15 US gallons (57 l; 12 imp gal) of gasoline at the current local rate, around US$60 to US$80 at June 2013 prices. Owners can pick up their battery pack fully charged on the return trip, which is included in the swap fee. Tesla will also offer the option to keep the pack received on the swap and paying the price difference if the battery received is newer; or to receive the original pack back from Tesla for a transport fee. The billing will be handled via customer credit card on file with Tesla. Pricing had not been determined as of June 2013.

It's true however, that Teslas that aren't used to commute will be charged at home, but those cars will have lower miles put on them.

Once it's charged, it's done using electricity. Regardless of the naysayers who have been around since the dawn of the new electric cars, Tesla appears to finally have it right. Up to this date, those who dismiss the idea of a working electric have seen one reason after another go the wayside. Good looks, long range, safe operation, and ease of maintainence.

Some may still complain about the final downside, the cost of replacing the batteries after an estimated 10 years, but how much value does a BMW lose during that same time? With a Tesla the value may be recovered with new cells.

[Mother Muckraker]

71. According to Elon Musk....

Covering the whole U.S. is an opinion not fact. It's Elon Musk's assertion that Tesla will do so, but it has not happened yet. Musk has made numerous promises in the past that have turned out to be false.

$50,000 Model S
$500/month lease for a Model S
Q2 2013 sales of 5150 which Autodata analysis says they sold 4181

Each Supercharger station costs ~$500,000 and he wants to cover the entire U.S.? Doing so would have a negative impact on their ability to turn a profit which they have only done once in Q1 2013 and that's only due to selling pollution credits, not cars.

Look at the supercharger station here in the Bay Area where the Tesla is made. The closest Supercharger is in Gilroy which is quite a long drive just to charge up your car. Most people will be charging from home at a much slower rate. This does not even take into account the decrease in battery life from fast charging.

The sales figures are lies. Those future projections are based on current production. Market conditions can change, especially with a $90k car (average cost).

For May 2013, Autodata estimates sales at only 1425 units which is ~17,100, much lower than Tesla's projections. Those projections are not sales figures. Those projections are goals.

For Q2 2013, Autodata's analysis shows 4181 sold for Q2 which is a sales decline from Q1.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1545592-tesla-s-disappointing-12-sales-decline-in-q2-and-sobering-future-outlook

The 5150 sales number comes from Elon Musk's verbal assertion. 5150 is not fact.

The "battery swap" is another scam. You have to return to the station to swap it back and it costs ~$70. There's a matter of logistics that has to be taken into account. The other problem is the same as building Supercharger stations. Each of these "swap stations" costs $500k and at $70 per swap, it'll be quite a while before Tesla can recoup the costs.

JohnnyRingo:

"Once it's charged, it's done using electricity."

That sounds like sales-speak which makes it FEEL like it doesn't use any electricity. What really happens is a massive amount parasitic lose from the battery just sitting around doing nothing. The amount of power a Model S consumes is equivalent to driving it 24 hours a day at 2 miles per hour. With more electric cars on the road, there will only be more electricity usage and more burning of coal to fuel the electricity.

The only "green" alternative is taking public transportation, bicycling and walking. Electric cars is not the answer to our global warmng problem.

[davidpdx]

6. They are an up and coming car company that will pose a serious challenge to both

US automakers and other major automakers around the world. It's just a matter of time.

[Ruby the Liberal]

11. Is anyone developing this out your way, David?

I am surprised a US manufacturer had the jump on Asia (noting the Leaf is in production).

Seems something Kia or Hyundai would be all over?

[davidpdx]

18. I've seen hybrids, but not on the level

in the US. I'm not really up to date on the market, but here is what I found.

Here are some of the concept cars from Kia:

http://www.kia.com/us/#/concept?fvVehicleID=pop&fvPageID=intro

A few of them look interesting.

Hyundai is suppose to have a car that runs on hydrogen and oxygen:

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_21628374/hyundai-introduce-worlds-first-production-fuel-cell-electric

[JohnnyRingo]

48. Tesla is a US automaker

The Office may be in Scandinavia, but the only factory is in Fremont California. Tesla put so muchh into this project, they quit making that sports roadster that started the company:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_S

[davidpdx]

49. Glad to know they are made in the US

[JohnnyRingo]

51. I just learned they opened a plant at home

...where they're building models for the Euro market. It just opened in March.

Their Wikki page is impressive:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_S

[needledriver]

70. Not made by union labor. Pass.

[CountAllVotes]

78. +1

Major point IMO.

UNION YES.

[cui bono]

9. I got to test drive a Tesla Roadster a couple years ago when they brought one to my workplace

to promote it. There were also some Nissan Leafs there but no one cared much about those. lol.

I only got to drive it about 8 blocks or so, but it was fast! The guy riding with me told me he beat out a Maserati starting up from a red light once. The only thing I didn't like was no power steering. He told me all the high end sports cars do not have that. I felt less comfortable not having it, being that it's so hard to steer at slower speeds.

[Ruby the Liberal]

13. No power steering?

I didn't drive it, so I don't know how it handles. I guess I assumed that was a given like AC and power windows.

Good to know.

[NYC_SKP]

17. The Model S Sedans have power steering, it's electric power steering like a Prius!

The roadster does not but people only complain about it during parking, and that's just some people.

[Ruby the Liberal]

21. Used Roadsters are 20% more expensive than new S Sedans

http://www.teslamotors.com/preowned

I may be getting old, but I think the S looks way better.

[NYC_SKP]

24. I'm with you. They're bringing out two new models, possibly more affordable.

The Model X will be a crossover SUV type, 210 and 270 mile range, but no price released yet. Delivery in 2014.

http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx



Another model is expected to compete with the BMW 3-series niche and cost around $30,000, to be available in 2015:

Tesla’s electric 3-series rival ‘on sale in 2015’

Tesla's model S will be joined by a small saloon to rival the 3-series

Tesla’s chief designer, Franz von Holzhausen, confirmed that the first of the new models could launch as early as 2015

Work on Tesla’s third model line — a range of cars to rival the BMW 3-series — is under way. Tesla’s chief designer, Franz von Holzhausen, confirmed that the first of the new models could launch as early as 2015.

Tesla has just started deliveries of its new Model S saloon, and will put the Model S-based Model X SUV into production late next year.

“The third model will continue to drive down the price point as fast as possible,” said von Holzhausen. He indicated a target price for the new entry-level car of $30,000 (£19,000).

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/tesla%E2%80%99s-electric-3-series-rival-%E2%80%98-sale-2015%E2%80%99

[Ruby the Liberal]

25. Yowsa!

A family member just paid $36k for a base model Nissan Murano because she didn't want to upgrade to a luxury package just to get heated seats.

This is awesome news, but I would have thought 3-series Beemers were way more than that.

[NYC_SKP]

26. BMW 3 series start around $32,250.

But I think they're also competing within that class: That smaller sports sedan genre.

The Tesla Model S is like a 7-series Beemer in size and class, pretty roomy!

[kwassa]

16. This gives better road feel. Power steering masks that.

I learned to drive on cars without power steering, which is how the car universe operated for much of it's history. The car has to be in motion before it can be steered.

I've only seen a couple of Model S's on the street. They look great.

[NYC_SKP]

23. The steering is electric. Silent and effortless, no need for a steering pump, etc.

It's sublime.

[cui bono]

28. Not in the Roadster I drove. It was very difficult to turn the wheel if I was going slow.

But they probably have different steering for the sedan.

[NYC_SKP]

38. You're right, but the OP's ride was in a Model S sedan.

That would be a brute if, like the Roadster, it didn't have electric assist.

[cui bono]

40. I know, but you replied to a reply to my post where I said I test drove a Roadster.

And then commented on its steering. So I was continuing that line of thought.

[NYC_SKP]

41. I have ridden in a roadster but my friend, Georg, didn't let me drive.

It's a crazy ride!

[JohnnyRingo]

52. Was that the sports roadster?

They quit making those in 2012 to focus on the S model production.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_S

This is the roadster:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_roadster

[cui bono]

59. Yep. That's the one!

I drove it in the fall of 2011 I believe. There was a little electric car demo with 1 Tesla Roadster and 5 Nissan Leafs going on.

I didn't realize they quit making those. Maybe they'll bring them back at some point once electric takes off. That thing was fast! I wouldn't have thought an electric car would perform like that. I would think people would buy it if the price came down.

[donco]

19. Maybe they will

get to a price that i can afford...sometime before they throw dirt in my face.

[Liberal_in_LA]

20. congrats. i seeing ore of them around la

[Spitfire of ATJ]

27. Clooney and his Tango...

[MindMover]

32. I don't care if George is licking the front bumper it still looks like a shoebox

[Spitfire of ATJ]

33. I've heard it feels like you're driving a filing cabinet down the road.

[Niceguy1]

58. eeek

Horrible

[SunSeeker]

30. The Tesla Roadster is my dream car.

[MindMover]

31. With solar panels on the hood, top, and trunk lid I would buy one tomorrow ...

Unfortunately, the tradeoff in carbon can be minimal depending upon where you live ...

[JohnnyRingo]

42. Equivalent to 80 mpg

...with no performance compromise (400+ hp). I think that's more than a minimal advantage over any pure fossil fuel car.

That horsepower rating is important, because anemic performance is one of most consumer's complaints. The other is that they have to look like a space bubble. Tesla is building charging stations across the US, because they know they're on to something.

Motor Trend Car Of The Year 2013, and Consumer Reports highest rating ever. They usually only offer five stars. The Tesla got 5.5. It's also rated the safest car in history. Considering all that, waiting for solar panels seems a bit picky.

They're built in only Freemont California too.

Here's an awesome behind the scenes clip of their factory featuring state of the art robotics:

[Unca Jim]

35. As an electric car dork...

I can affirm the future is here.

I converted two cars myself; my last one is a 1964 VW Bug. http://www.evalbum.com/2869

This year I was determined to buy a commercial electric vehicle, so I looked at the Chevy Spark EV (http://www.chevrolet.com/spark-ev-electric-vehicle.html?seo=goo_|_GM+Chevy+Retention_|_GG-RTN-Chevy-Spark+EV-BP-SN-Exact_|_Spark+EV+HV_|_chevy%20spark%20ev), the Ford Focus Electric (http://www.ford.com/cars/focus/trim/electric/?searchid=71062349|2746996349|19810272704&ef_id=pg1PkGVOLgIAAAr1:20130907024941:s), and the Nissan Leaf (http://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/?dcp=ppn.63023882.&dcc=0.240189300)

The dealership near me had a Leaf with extensive hail damage, which I don't care about and saved me $8000 so I bought it.

It is awesome and will end up costing me about $25k when all is said and done. They gave me .9% financing for pete's sake!

[NYC_SKP]

43. What are your conversion plans for the hail-damaged leaf?

It would be hard to make it look any worse than the way they come, if you don't mind me saying so.

I had a Focus EV for a week and loved it, it was a trial period toward a potential fleet purchase.

Thanks for being an EV geek!

[Unca Jim]

67. I don't know...

I sort of felt the same about the look of the Leaf, but it has grown on me...

I will eventually (when the original finish is out of warranty) skin the hail divots and paint it some bright color.

But the car itself is fun to drive, meets my needs, and was affordable.

[hunter]

37. I'm anti-car.

It pisses me off that I have to own own one, an $800 'eighties model with a salvage title that I hope will last 'til the automobile age is no more.

But if you must have a car and you have the money you could do worse than a full electric.

[JohnnyRingo]

39. Of course he pays something for fuel.

...after all, they have to generate the electricity to charge it, but that Tesla equates to 80 mpg of fossil, and that's impressive, especially in a car with no performance compromise.

Built only in Freemont California too. Since batteries are so expensive to ship, I assume they're made here as well.

The Tesla S is the Motor Trend Car Of The Year 2013. Not the electric car of the year, but the car of the year. Consumer Reports gave it the highest rating in their history.

On edit:
Here's a clip of their factory featuring 21st century robotics:

[Ruby the Liberal]

74. Thats a great video

Fascinating process!

On the electrical costs - he has his house net metered with full solar.

[geomon666]

47. .

[Paulie]

50. At the supercharger stations if you can't wait you can pay to swap battery packs

And the model X is to have Falcon doors in the back:

I want a model S to replace my soon to be 10yo Prius. Now that I shrunk my commuting way down I can get by fine with a 100 mile range.

[Ruby the Liberal]

77. Great videos - thanks!

Although at 10 gallons a minute, that would indicate a 30 gallon fill and dude did take his sweet time getting back into the car, but point taken.

I can't wait to see how these (hopefully) come down in price in a few years!

[bananas]

53. That's what you get when a rocket scientist designs an electric car. nt

[Suburban Warrior]

54. Wall Street Loves Tesla Too...

The stock is up over 400% this year and I'm not embarrassed to say I have a few shares in my portfolio.

[PoliticAverse]

55. Wall Street does love corporate welfare for the rich...

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/08/tesla-q2-second-quarter-earnings-elon-musk-subsidies

[rightsideout]

57. I "car sat" a Tesal Model S for a few days

What a blast that was. A friend had just picked it up 2 weeks before and dropped it by my house and said it was mine for the next few days. I charged it with the solar panels we have on our house.

I've owned EVs for 20 years and still have a Ford Escort I converted. I just ordered Lithium batteries for it. I can't afford a Tesla though.

We just finished building an electric dragster which I will be taking out to the track in the next couple weeks.

[link:|

[xfundy]

60. I once rode in the GM version

of the electric car. It was very smooth, had good pep, and was soundless. It was killed, and all were recalled and destroyed shortly after that. But it was a real thing, and a thing that worked well, but OILCO killed it.

[Mother Muckraker]

61. Tesla - the other side of the story

Tesla took over the former NUMMI plant which produced Corollas and Tacomas at a defect rate lower than all Toyota and Lexus plants worldwide. NUMMI was shut down by Toyota's union busting operation used to lower their N. American labor costs at a time when Toyota had $39 billion in cash. The union busting operation is still ongoing with former NUMMI group leaders rehired to keep former NUMMI workers out. The head of Tesla's HR dept specializes in "union avoidance"... a union buster.

About half of U.S. electricity comes from coal fired plants which pollutes as bad or worse than burning gas. Tesla plans to expand into China which has 70%+ of their electricity coming from coal fired plants.

What's "green" is using public transportation, bicycling and walking. The use of electric cars will not save us. There's massive waste in disposal of lithium batteries once their useful life ends and the tremendous toxicity in their manufacturing.

Elon Musk uses dubious sales techniques not unlike subprime mortgage lenders. He first claimed people could own a Model S for $500/month
http://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/tesla-motors-inc-tsla-its-numbers-dont-add-up-106147/

But after being derided by most of the press, Elon Musk told a bigger lie by "admitting to making a mistake" and revising the claim to to $540/month
http://blog.caranddriver.com/citing-criticismtesla-revamps-lease-program-but-misdirection-remains/

Tesla has had a series of misinformation promote by the business press designed to deceive the public to pump up their stock price.

Q1 2013 GAAP profits came mostly from selling pollution credits, not from sales of the Model S.

Q2 2013 "profits" are non-GAAP. The non-GAAP numbers were promoted heavily. GAAP numbers, the official numbers reported in their financials show a loss.

Only numbers based on Generally Accepted Accounting Principles are valid. Using GAAP allows investors to compare similar companies accurately and show that numbers weren't cooked.

The sales figures of 5150 cars sold for Q2 comes from Elon Musk, not from a document. Another source, Autodata via Motortrend showed 4181 sold which is short of their 4500 goal.
http://blogs.motortrend.com/lessons-learned-from-june2013-auto-sales-tesla-takes-longer-to-recharge-29699.html#axzz2YlwLd03n

The latest claims that the Model S is the safest car with "5.4 stars" is a lie. The Model S got the highest rating by the government of 5 stars, nothing higher. There were other cars who received 5-star ratings. The .4 was Tesla's own opinion tacked on after the fact.

The claim that the Model S's roof "broke the testing machine" which falsely implies superior strength is also a lie. Musk does not disclose the testing methods or machine used. The roof test was not done by the government, but by a commercial entity.

[Unca Jim]

72. Unsure about your union and profit claims, but....

your electric car claims are incorrect or outdated.

For example, while it is true that much of the electricity in the US is generated by coal, the plants that generate it are cleaner and less polluting than a small-scale automobile engine. And even if they weren't, only half the electricity is produced with coal. Here's a nice discussion and breakdown of what I'm talking about: http://energy.typepad.com/the-energy-blog/2010/04/greenhouse-gas-emissions-electric-vs-gasoline-cars.html

As for your other points on the subject: http://content.sierraclub.org/evguide/myths-vs-reality

Remember, too, that the most inefficient and dirty coal plants were just re-regulated and are closed or closing: http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/23352 Lastly, wind energy is on track to replace coal in the next couple decades. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_States

So, electric cars at the very least reduce the amount of fossil fuel used for transportation by half, and their reliance on combustion will only decrease over time. Seems pretty green to me.

Yes, it would be nice if we had better public transportation and our population was concentrated enough to get rid of cars, but until that happens I see no reason to discount progress.

[Mother Muckraker]

82. Union busting, Q2 2013 Loss (GAAP) , Environmentally dubious

Usually, union busters are outsourced. In Tesla's case, union busting is in-house with the hiring of Steven Cooper as head of HR. Under "specialties", it says "union avoidance". Google "union avoidance" and you'll see the union busting industry advertising their "trade".
http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevenmcooper1

Tesla's loss or profit numbers are simply a matter of fact. The numbers are culled from their financial statements which is based on GAAP (Generally Acccepted Accounting Principles) figures and is SEC compliant. Tesla's loss for Q2 2013 is $30 million which Musk tried to coverup by promoting the non-GAAP figure of $21 million "profit". Musk also released his Hyperloop concept which is nothing more than a red-herring to divert attention away from the Q2 loss.

All you did was repeat the hype directly from Musk himself who has an interest in making money. Future projections mean nothing.

The manufacture of electric car batteries, solar panels (Supercharger) and the burning of coal adds to an environmental impact that's estimated to be even worse than burning petroleum. Tesla is looking to sell their Model S in China which is 70% coal fired electricity. Coal in China is cheap. More electric cars, especially in China will make global warming worse as other gases even worse than CO2 is released when burning coal.

How Green Is a Tesla, Really?
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2013/09/how_green_is_a_tesla_electric_cars_environmental_impact_depends_on_where.html

Unclean At Any Speed
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/unclean-at-any-speed

Elon Musk does not care about the environment (he said so himself), nor does any of his Model S customers. According to this study, Model S drivers like Jim Beam, strip clubs and weed. Those are the kinds of people that buy $90k cars.

Toyota Prius, Tesla Model S fans apparently like very different things
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/08/02/toyota-prius-tesla-model-s-fans-apparently-like-very-different/

[bluedeathray]

64. How much square footage (approx.)

Did he require of PV panels to make his home and transportation grid free?

Thanks!

[Ruby the Liberal]

75. No idea.

I just met the guy that night. There were about 9 people there showing off their electric cars. Some converted others (like the Tesla) were retail. He mentioned full solar and net metered, but didn't indicate how large the install was or how often he is drawing on the grid.

[Mother Muckraker]

83. NYU professor's valuation of TSLA at $67.12.....why TSLA is not worth $160/share.

Elon Musk is selling people a dream like any salesman. He doesn't even care about the environment.

Valuation of the week 1: A Tesla Test
http://aswathdamodaran.blogspot.com/2013/09/valuation-of-week-1-tesla-test.html

[treestar]

68. Totally cool

Sounds like the guy has a lot of money but cares about the environment.

[Ruby the Liberal]

76. That or they may pay him a stipend of some sort

to drive to these types of community events and showcase their products? I didn't ask.

[Warren DeMontague]

80. Nice.

I took a look at them in a mall showroom once. Prettttttty friggin' cool.