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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhite House: Irrefutable Assad link to gas attack lacking, but passes ‘common-sense test’
Last edited Sun Sep 8, 2013, 04:14 PM - Edit history (1)
WASHINGTON The White House asserted Sunday that a common-sense test dictates the Syrian government is responsible for a chemical weapons attack that President Barack Obama says demands a U.S. military response. But Obamas top aide says the administration lacks irrefutable, beyond-a-reasonable-doubt evidence that skeptical Americans, including lawmakers who will start voting on military action this week, are seeking.
This is not a court of law. And intelligence does not work that way, White House chief of staff Denis McDonough said, part of his five-network public relations blitz Sunday to build support for limited strikes against Syrian President Bashar Assad.
The common-sense test says he is responsible for this. He should be held to account, McDonough said of the Syrian leader who for two years has resisted calls from inside and outside his country to step down.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-house-working-to-rally-lawmakers-american-public-behind-obamas-push-for-syrian-strike/2013/09/08/66cfb932-1868-11e3-80ac-96205cacb45a_story.html
Updated to add correct link.
bowens43
(16,064 posts)janlyn
(735 posts)They aren't going to lie and say they have proof, like the Bush administration. They just want you to trust their judgment !
well played!
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)and Occams razor says that one the guy known to have those weapons in the vicinity did it...
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)And while it certainly is true that the Assad regime would have the easiest time accessing and deploying chemical weapons, that leaves motivation unexplained. I'm not sure you have a good case that access alone is sufficiently explanatory. If motivation is used to fix blame, clearly the "rebels" stand to gain the most from the attack, they need only be amoral enough to sacrifice a few hundred people in order to shift the balance of power from Assad to their side. Are they sufficiently immoral? I can make the case that based on documented behavior, they may very well be.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)because he has been low level sarin gassing all along...just to scare them. So few die of that...the world doesn't notice....that is until one of your numbskulls misreads "tablespoonfuls as teaspoons" as human numbskulls are want to do....and OOOPS Bob's your uncle...and you have International Attention on your hands.
That's why...
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)it may be that since Assad's Sarin is likely deteriorating and so the formula was being changed to compensate....an estimate was made by how much....and the estimate was off.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)I don't see how it helped him.
Rex
(65,616 posts)capable of crossing the ocean and hitting us with nerve gas? Before some of you start laughing...that was pushed by the WH right after the WMD fiasco with the UN weapons inspectors. Many pundits and politicians pretended it was 'common sense' Iraq was an immediate threat to the United States. Sadly many Congress Dems went right along with the WH. Sans evidence of drones or gases or WMDs.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)as we have now?
markpkessinger
(8,381 posts). . . and we were well aware of it and looked the other way. Our 'moral outrage' was apparently on vacation, however.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)banning any kind of weapons However I was outraged....weren't you?
markpkessinger
(8,381 posts)Taitertots
(7,745 posts)international support for their deteriorating forces.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)you launch your first verifiable CW attack 15 minutes down the road.
But I'm a "Trufer", so what do I know?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)We have gone from irrefutable to this...m'kay
markpkessinger
(8,381 posts). . . unfuckingbelievable.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)But at least I sleep
Catherina
(35,568 posts)FarCenter
(19,429 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)Response to morningfog (Original post)
HardTimes99 This message was self-deleted by its author.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)It is an AP story, I think I copied it from LA Times, but am not finding right away. I will update when I do find it.
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)demolishes the warmonger case.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)nothing to see here go back to sleep!
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)a fucking baby-killer.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)War pimp losers
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Conceived in deepest neoconland. Planned by true-believing second-raters. Incompetently and reluctantly executed by those who should have known better.
A devastating blow to Obama's Presidency and legacy. A shame - we had such high expectations for him as a peacemaker,and he ended up a hostage/accomplice to this fucked up conspiracy pushed by Hillary Clinton, David Petraeus and a cell of neocon leave-behinds.
Deeply fucked up.
JVS
(61,935 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Going to war based on "common sense" is not common sense.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)babykilling fucks.
We really need to keep this thread kicked to the top to force all those who have been defending Obama to defend this shit.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)are you doubting that?
Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #33)
Post removed
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)send them straight to jail, without messing with the trials etc?
I'll go with that.
Junkdrawer
(27,993 posts)And the "Bug the World" Administration is hearing it's just not good.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)Shit, why haven't we started bombing them yet?
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)And you've now seen -- uh, CNN, in fact, ran these videos yesterday. You've seen the, uh, video proof of the outcome of those attacks.
All of that leads to, as I say, a quite strong common sense test, irrespective of the intelligence, that suggests that, uh, the regime carried this out.
That's it, folks.
That is an incredibly weak case to join a civil war, kill innocents over and tip a chaos of dominoes.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1309/08/sotu.01.html
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Fuck You.
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)What?
rug
(82,333 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)The Obama Administration has officially announced that it has jumped the shark is eligible for disability benefits having lost its f-cking mind in one bite above the neck.
This is a reversal to the Dubya days of brainless foreign policy and bombing without real proof.
NO THANK YOU, MR PRESIDENT.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)markpkessinger
(8,381 posts). .. what the Administration fails to grasp is that the uncertainty surrounding who carried out the attacks is only ONE of the reasons many of us object, and arguably not even the most significant aspect of our objection. The far more significant issues center around the unintended consequences of intervening on a civil war which, if the U.S. is drawn into it, would become in effect a sectarian proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran (read Sunni and Shia) for geopolitical dominance in the region, not to mention intervening in such a way as to give Al Qaeda a leg up.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)City Lights
(25,171 posts)ocpagu
(1,954 posts)Good to see that, at least, they are not insinting in the lie that responsability over the attacks has been established. It has never been, world leaders continue to be skeptical, and I do not understand how so many people in DU fell for the government's account based solely on faith.
markpkessinger
(8,381 posts). . . based on someone's idea of "common sense." An appeal to common sense is the argument of someone who doesn't really have a valid argument. And as someone once said, " 'Common sense' is all too common and rarely makes sense."
madville
(7,397 posts)Is Democratic support slipping away for 2014. Pissing the liberal base off a year before an election will have an effect.
durablend
(7,418 posts)"Those are unserious people anyway! Who needs em!"
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)a hater, without any facts, who just can't accept that 10 nations say the intelligence is irrefutable, that I am just in denial, that I am happily humiliating Obama, blah blah blah blah.. I wonder what the new excuse is going to be. And I wonder just how little evidence people are going to be willing to accept when it comes to American Military Intervention in the future. At what point is s "gut feeling" going to be used to justify a war?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)markpkessinger
(8,381 posts). . . that appeals to 'common sense' are rather like appeals to 'patriotism' -- and we all know what Samuel Johnson had to say about patriotism.
brisas2k
(76 posts),,
brisas2k
(76 posts)Syrian Chemical Weapons Attack Carried Out by Rebels, Says UN (UPDATE)
Added by Graham Noble on August 27, 2013.
Saved under Graham Noble, Op-ed, Syria, World
UN in Syria
As the Syrian revolt continues to tear the country apart, the international community has been eager to condemn Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, even as it became clear that the rebels do not, in fact, represent a popular uprising against the oppression of the Assad regime. According to UN diplomat Carla del Ponte, however, it appears that the recent chemical weapons attack, in April, was carried out by the Syrian rebels and not the regime, as it had been widely assumed. Speaking to a Swiss television channel, del Ponte said that there were strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof, that rebels had carried out the attack. She also said UN investigators had seen no evidence of the Syrian army using chemical weapons, but that further investigation was needed.
A spokesman for the rebels denied responsibility for the most recent attack, which allegedly involved the deployment of sarin nerve gas. He pointed out that the Free Syrian Army does not possess the missiles or shells necessary to deliver the chemical agent. Sarin gas, however, can be delivered in a number of ways. Additionally, while the rebels claim that the chemical agent was delivered by missiles or artilery, there is no evidence of a missile strike or shelling in any of the many videos that have been uploaded to the internet in the wake of the alleged attack.
After swift initial progress in the more than two-year-old conflict, the rebel advance was stalled as Lebanese terror group Hezbollah sent fighters to the regimes aid. Whilst a number of towns have been taken and then retaken by each side, Assads forces have gradually gained the upper hand. With his army making gains and the eyes of the world upon him, it seems unlikely that the Syrian President would risk carrying out a chemical attack particularly against an urban area. The Syrian government has flatly denied responsibility for this latest alleged chemical weapons attack and although not widely reported in the western media, there is broad suspicion that it was, indeed, carried out by the rebels. Ultimately, it may prove impossible for UN inspectors to determine who was responsible for the incident. Further, their investigation may be curtailed by the seemingly imminent military action possibly in the form of cruise missile strikes by the United States and the United Kingdom.
US President Obama has sent out mixed messages, regarding his intentions towards Syria; whilst he has stated that the US would not take military action against Syria without a UN mandate, it appears that preparations for an attack are already well underway, with American and British naval forces massing in the region. There is widespread speculation that strikes could be carried out within a week, despite strong and repeated warnings from both Russia and Iran, as well as the Syrian regime itself.
One of the most ominous repercussions of US intervention against the Syrian government is the possibility that Iran and its surrogate in Lebanon, Hezbollah, will launch strikes against Israel, in retaliation. This, in turn, could lead to a regional war, with Russia and the US lined up on opposing sides.
The United States government has been quick to condemn the Syrian government for the latest chemical weapons attack. Now that much of the evidence suggests it may have been carried out by the al-Qaeda-affiliated rebels, President Obama should remember that he, along with his supporters and political allies, devoted much time to condemning his predecessor for leading the US into war based on questionable intelligence.
UPDATE: This article was updated to clarify one or two points that some of our readers found misleading: The chemical attack earlier this year was widely blamed on the Syrian regime. It is this attack that the UN now concludes was carried out by Syrian rebels. It appears unlikely for a number of reasons that the most recent August 21st attack was carried out by government forces despite the rush to judgement within the international community although this has yet to be fully determined. It is clear that both sides in the Syrian conflict have the means to use chemical weapons and it would be misguided to assume that either side has a moral objection to such attacks.
As Jean Pascal Zanders, formerly of the European Union Institute for Security Studies, has pointed out In fact, we the public know very little beyond the observation of outward symptoms of asphyxiation and possible exposure to neurotoxicants, despite the mass of images and film footage. For the Wests credibility, I think that governments should await the results of the U.N. investigation.
An Editorial by Graham J Noble
Source
treestar
(82,383 posts)is just unworthy of DU. It happened and Assad is guilty. The evidence is quite clear.
brisas2k
(76 posts)ocpagu
(1,954 posts)Last edited Sun Sep 8, 2013, 10:30 PM - Edit history (2)
Which evidence? There's none. As the US government itself admitted, all they have is "common sense"...
treestar
(82,383 posts)Are you serious?
Doctors without Borders physicians. Studies of blood of victims.
Good grief.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)August 28, 2013Over the last two days, the American, British, and other governments have referred to reports from several groups, including Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF), while stating that the use of chemical weapons in Syria was undeniable and designating the perpetrators.
MSF today warned that its medical information could not be used as evidence to certify the precise origin of the exposure to a neurotoxic agent or to attribute responsibility.
On August 24, MSF announced that three hospitals it supplies in Syrias Damascus governorate had reportedly received 3,600 patients displaying neurotoxic symptoms, of which 355 died. Although our information indicates mass exposure to a neurotoxic agent, MSF clearly stated that scientific confirmation of the toxic agent was required, and therefore called for an independent investigation to shed light on what would constitute, if confirmed, a massive and unacceptable violation of international humanitarian law.
MSF also stated that in its role as an independent medical humanitarian organization, it was not in a position to determine responsibility for the event. Now that an investigation is underway by United Nations inspectors, MSF rejects that our statement be used as a substitute for the investigation or as a justification for military action. MSF's sole purpose is to save lives, alleviate the suffering of populations torn by Syrian conflict, and bear witness when confronted with a critical event, in strict compliance with the principles of neutrality and impartiality.
The latest massive influx of patients displaying neurotoxic symptoms in Damascus governorate comes on top of an already catastrophic humanitarian situation facing the Syrian people, one characterized by extreme violence, displacement, the destruction of medical facilities, and severely limited or blocked humanitarian action.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
ocpagu
(1,954 posts)They only conffirmed that CW were used. They said nothing about who used them.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)He said it would happen in the first 6 months--he meant first 6 years.
Gird up your loins.
A generated, international crisis to test Obama's mettle.
He's gonna need us.
Need our help.
To stand with him.
Initially, it won't be apparent that we're right.
Obama will clean the Augean stables.
We'll be asking 'why is this thing so tough?
Why are they down in the polls?'
They'll have to make the tough decisions.
"Remember the faith you had at this point because youre going to have to reinforce us."
Remember?
Prophetic?
Pathetic?
You decide.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2008/10/biden-to-suppor/
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Not.