OK, so let me see if I have this right... (w/ edit)

[WilliamPitt]

Last edited Mon Sep 9, 2013, 02:57 PM - Edit history (1)

Kerry: Give us the chemical weapons and we won't bomb you.

Russia: Great idea!

State Dept.: Anything Secretary Kerry said about Syria's chemical weapons should be considered rhetorical.

Susan Rice: Let's bomb them.

(...all within about the last hour)

The American people and the world:

On Edit: OK, it appears Kerry and the State Department are trying to unfuck themselves after yet another confusing morning. Good:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/us-to-take-hard-look-at-russias-syria-proposal.php

[cali]

1. I'll wait to see if the administration

will really back away from military strikes.

[polichick]

2. It's CHESS! Haven't you ever played chess before?! :)

[AnotherMcIntosh]

19. Now, the TPP should be the next move. Then the chained CPI. Brilliant.

[SamKnause]

56. TPP

Kerry pushed for attacking Syria, switched gears and starting pushing for TPP in a speech (lecture really) yesterday.

It was was nauseating.

[beerandjesus]

31. Just two-dimensional chess. Sorry.

[RC]

52. Chess or Checkers?

[morningfog]

3. I expect some needle threading soon.

Something like, the offer would be good, if Assad acts now, 24 hours to agree, all must be done within a week, fine print on offer, etc."

[WilliamPitt]

6. Who will do the inspections/verifications?

The UN? How long will that take to organize? Will Syria agree to inspectors?

Oh, and P.S., I'm getting pretty fucking sick and tired of America doing scramble-back-and-fill-oh-shit diplomacy based on "off the cuff" remarks from officials who still haven't learned that words mean something when uttered.

"Red line."

"Give us the weapons."

Both were off the cuff, and both are causing confusion, bedlam and dangerous nonsense.

For fuck's sake, we're supposed to be the smart ones.

[BP2]

38. Yep, and six months from now

we'll be back to where we are now when the UN Security Council says no to action because of Russia and China's veto

"red lines" and "give us the weapons"

[Pretzel_Warrior]

4. try to keep up. international politics and diplomacy is not simple.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

73. Exactly

I think that President Obama has got to remain credible on the possibility of strikes in order to determine whether or not Russia and Syria are serious about removing/destroying the chemical weapons. They may say that they are but as we all know, talk is cheap. If they are serious about it and actually rid themselves of chemical weapons without airstrikes, then that will be good for everybody IMHO. If Kerry made a gaffe, it may end up being a rather fortuitous one IMHO.

[DontTreadOnMe]

5. Bill, let me summarize everything for you.

1. Obama announces he wants a military strike
2. The extreme left stomps their feet like children... against Obama, which confuses Fox News, they now don't know where to stand on this issue
3. The GOP are divided on Syria
4. Obama and military strike Syria
5. This forces chaos in Syria and Assad is pushed out
6. Limited strike is seen as successful, Obama is hero again
7. GOP looks weak on National Security
8. Extreme Left stands whining in the corner, again.

[WilliamPitt]

7. "5. This forces chaos in Syria and Assad is pushed out"

To be replaced by who?

[DontTreadOnMe]

13. Obama and Putin made the pick last week, but they can't tell you now...

otherwise you would be stomping your feet and holding your breath in protest.

[NuclearDem]

20. Stop. Just, stop.

You've clearly shown you don't know the first thing about this topic, and instead of trying to figure out what you need to know about it, you've just taken to pointless childish personal attacks. You have a long habit of not contributing to any discussion you insert yourself in, and only engage in flamebaiting and trolling.

The fact that you constantly go after others for apparently acting infantile without any sense of self-awareness is just fucking rich.

[DontTreadOnMe]

21. You will look like the fool next week

Maybe you should just take a break from DU and watch it all play out...

[NuclearDem]

28. After a glance at your transparency page

It seems far more likely you're going to be taking a vacation from DU than me.

[WilliamPitt]

22. Oh my God.

Thanks. That was awesome.

[DontTreadOnMe]

36. Billy Boy

When Assad steps down next weeks and is replaced... I will point to this thread.

The military strikes start this week.

[cleanhippie]

55. And if none of that happens will you delete your account?

I'm guessing you will not. But please, prove me wrong.

[DontTreadOnMe]

61. And do you want me to vote Republican too?

Getting really tired of the Obama haters here on DU

[cleanhippie]

67. So you won't put your money where your mouth is. Got it.

That's what I expected.

[DontTreadOnMe]

83. Only a fool bets against Obama...

and I can you on the hill.

[cleanhippie]

84. But I'm not betting against Obama, I'm betting against you and your nonsense.

Keep squirming, it's interesting to watch you try and contort yourself out of this while I sit back and watch.

[DontTreadOnMe]

87. Turns out Obama worked it out... but keep bashing Obama if it makes you feel better

I don't need to ever squirm when I pick to be on Obama's side... it always works out good.

[RetroLounge]

81. Getting really tired...

So, who the fuck cares?

RL

[cleanhippie]

86. Still gonna point to this thread, Billy Boy?

You made some bold predictions and left yourself no way out even when offered. Still planning to point to this thread in light of the new information or you gonna run from it?

[DontTreadOnMe]

88. Not at all Mr. Clean

I predicted that Obama and Putin were working a deal while he was at the G20.

Turns out I was right.

And I will point this thread out in another 30 days when they announce Assad is stepping down... and someone else (chosen by Putin) will take the reigns.

Bet against Obama, and you lose every time. How does it feel to call out President out, and he just gave you checkmate.

Stupid hippie.

[cleanhippie]

90. So you completely reverse your position, claim victory, and throw in a personal insult?

You stay classy.

[DontTreadOnMe]

91. Yeah, it's 5th Dimensional Chess

Amazing, isn't it!

[cleanhippie]

93. I'll give you this much, you sure got brass ones. Lying about what you said when its visible above

for all to read then claiming you never said any such thing takes the cake. Throwing in a personal insult must be your coping mechanism.

Again, you stay classy.

[sibelian]

32. So they're manipulating everybody?

Do you like being manipulated?

[DontTreadOnMe]

39. Everyone? ... no just the EXTREME left and the GOP fell for another Obama trap

you know Obama.. the guy who got Osama.

And now the Right will look weak on National Security as well. But thanks for playing your part.

[sibelian]

48. Manipulated into not supporting him?

Why did he want that? Seems a bit ..... convoluted .... to me...

[DontTreadOnMe]

89. Which is it.. Obama is not listening to you, or is he just plain evil?

Obama has this covered... go to bed.

[sibelian]

92. You tell me.

You're the one with privileged access to his cognition.

[NuclearDem]

8. Do I really have to post the Billy Madison clip again?

That's an offensively odorous pile of shit that completely ignores all of the hundreds of factors in play with Syria in favor of simply framing this in the dumbfuck GOP vs Obama contest, like it somehow matters to anyone else in the fucking world.

[morningfog]

9. Well, that's a heap of horse shit.

[polichick]

10. You forgot the part about Israel and Iran.

[RobertEarl]

11. Let's hope your dreams don't come true

Because if they do, many people will be hurt.

Instead try this dream: No bombs and the wars end. See how great that would be?

[Trajan]

14. Gungeonite ...

nuff said ..

[Carolina]

44. So, Don'tTreadOn Me

you say:
"extreme left stomps their feet like children... against Obama... Extreme Left stands whining in the corner, again"

Since when is being anti-war being extreme left
The fierce opposition was against war...
Opposition to war and to Obama's pushing such an intervention in a way he has never fought for anything else, anything progressive, liberal or uplifting

Seems the extreme left was supported by the world and the majority of Americans.

Meanwhile, your summary is so Rahm...esque!

[DontTreadOnMe]

49. You mean Obama and Putin working a deal while in Russia... is not OK with you?

How many are calling for Kerry to step down?

How many are using the word impeachment?

yes.. THAT EXTREME LEFT....

[Carolina]

50. oh puhleeze

Your repeated use of the phrase speaks volumes about YOU! You sound like a teabagger.

And BTW, diplomacy 'deals' should have been at play long ago, before the US backed the rebels (some of them al Qaeda) who have already caused 100,000 deaths during the past 2 years of this civil war.

O and K looked like blustering bullies with their convenient "certainties," intelligence discrepancies and sudden, zealous rush for using military strikes. It should never have come to this...

But there are none so blind as those who put mindless faith in the D label

[Comrade Grumpy]

64. Nice fairy tale. n/t

[RetroLounge]

82. More BOGGER performance art!

RL

[TwilightGardener]

12. More going on than we see or hear, I think. And a little skepticism is also in order

over the sudden Russia/Syria position shift.

[jsr]

15. It's elementary, really

[DontTreadOnMe]

18. That PAWN Obama is holding is the EXTREME LEFT, they got played perfectly...

But Obama thanks you for playing your predictable part....

[markpkessinger]

23. Anybody who uses the phrase "extreme left" is not to be taken seriously n/t

[Starry Messenger]

29. +1

[Scuba]

41. + another

[DontTreadOnMe]

42. The perpetually discgruntled, paranoid... you know!

It must really hit home that you have been played like a PAWN.

NSA is watching you as you type!

You don't think there is an EXTREME LEFT?

I have seen people here on DU advocate anarchy... like let's bomb the banks. Maybe this might refresh your memory about the EXTREME LEFT.

[truebluegreen]

85. Anarchy isn't the extreme left, communism is.

But otherwise your analysis is stellar.

Not.

[Carolina]

46. touche, marpkessinger!

[sibelian]

30. He should probably reserve his thanks for Putin.

The "extreme left" appears to be the entirety of the United States, these days, an entity in which it seems Obama has little interest.

[whatchamacallit]

62. Don'tTrollOnMe

[DontTreadOnMe]

63. Ah, the name caller again... so childish, but expected

I am with Obama.. you know, the Democratic Party Leader.

[NuclearDem]

68. You don't have a whole lot of room to call other people name callers or childish.

[DontTreadOnMe]

76. Yeah right... I am a Dem who supports the Dem President, SOS, H Clinton, etc...

and on a Democratic website to boot... but go ahead... now who is the extremist?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

16. If the Syrians really want to avoid war, they will stop blocking the oil-pipeline paths.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Yup. It's a strange sense of déjà vu

Remember Bush to Sadam? 72 hours before the war officially, you leave, with your sons, we don't go to war.

It looked like Sadam might, we don't mean it.

[1awake]

24. Hey now... it can't be over

Whats the Prez going to talk about tonight if not the pitch for war??

[geek tragedy]

25. What if . . .

he's learned from the Teabaggers that being/appearing batshit insane is useful in negotiations? (see, e.g., debt limit negotiations of 2011)?

Not saying that is the case--have no idea.

[Junkdrawer]

26. White House speaking now.....

Take Russia and Syria with a grain of salt....

We'll think about it....

Only happening because of the threat of war....so it's important that Congress give us the power to bomb.

[morningfog]

27. Sure sounds like they aren't expecting much from this.

[Junkdrawer]

35. Damn the fire extinguishers..full bombs ahead....

What, you want WATER on that fire?????

[Skraxx]

34. Sounds Reasonable, A Threat of Force as a Diplomatic Tool, Is Only Useful If Taken Seriously

If you start backing away from it now, it loses it's potency. Assad and Russia need to put up now and show they mean business.

Trust but verify.

[Junkdrawer]

40. TALK LOUDLY and Carry a Big Stick....

IF YOU DON'T SHOUT, they may surrender.

[LiberalAndProud]

33. So ... this isn't really just about saving face?

I do have the sense that no matter which way Congress votes, no matter how many people voice their opposition, no matter what Assad does, surrender chemical weapons or not, we will bomb Syria. Because we can. It is not ours to understand why. It is ours to pay for. Shut up and it down. We can't possibly understand the intricacies of our foreign policy.

[cthulu2016]

37. Mr Pitt, your error is an honest one. I made the same error. But

the State Department did not say the offer was rhetorical.

They said that Kerry's statement/prediction *that Assad would not accept the offer* was rhetorical.

I read the two and posted something similar this morning, but on re-reading the state dept language realized I had erred, and self-deleted

[NYC_SKP]

43. 10 minutes ago, CNN: "Syria 'welcomes' proposal to hand over control of chemical weapons"

So if Kerry and Obama don't take advantage of this they're gonna look pretty foolish.

I think we need to keep our drawers on and see what happens!

[maddezmom]

47. From 5 mins ago - U.S. open to Russian chemical weapons proposal

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/syria-us-russia-chemical-weapons-96472.html?hp=t1_3

[joeybee12]

45. Obama's winning!

If this were football, he'd behind by 50 points with 10 seconds left, and still some people here would be shouting that...defies logic.

[David__77]

51. They don't want the war train derailed.

Promotion/media attention of the Russian/Syrian offer is important over the next two days.

[BlueCheese]

53. It was obviously an offhand remark...

... and not meant seriously. Now everyone is scrambling around a little.

Important proposals are not revealed for the first time in the Q and A part of a news conference.

[DevonRex]

54. Look, Assad and Putin have to believe, KNOW, that Syria is about to get bombed.

That is what got the UN chief to say the CW needed to be moved to a safe place. That's what got Putin to suggest they give up the CW.

That is what has gotten the ball rolling. That is why Obama has not said he would follow Congress's will or not. That is why he has dragged this out. To leave the scary threat out there and give them time to get scared. And come to an agreement that fits international law.

[Skidmore]

57. I agree and the last thing

Assad wants to do is give up his civil war. No one is demanding that of him. Therehas been much going on behind the scenery, I think, and much of it not sexy enough for the conspiracy theorists' dystopian visions.

[DevonRex]

59. BINGO. Game theory right there. This avoids his worst possible outcome.

Which is giving up his fight. But he's going to lose it anyway, and sooner rather than later.

[Comrade Grumpy]

65. "He's going to lose it anyway, and sooner rather than later" is what they were saying 2 years ago.

The regime may lose control of some parts of the country, but it isn't going anywhere.

[Waiting For Everyman]

66. You're right.

No big stick, no concessions. And this was a pretty shocking concession. I think it indicates how weak Assad is, and how weak his alliances are.

Obama can go after him a piece at time, it doesn't have to be in one sitting. If Assad games this offer he will look more and more shady, and lose more credibility. At some point, he will just be done. I'd think it would be better if that did not happen as suddenly as it might've with the initially proposed strike.

This gives the UN a foothold, which could dislodge the stalemate.

[DevonRex]

69. That's what we needed. The UN to speak up and do something

constructive. For Putin to apply a little pressure with a suggestion. Finally. Putin had blocked everything so far.

Obama is willing to look like the bad guy, a warmonger, a fool, a weakling, a crazy man, whatever people choose to call him, as long as Assad and Putin and the UN believe he just might carry through with his threats. (This is actually a huge hint as to why we are seemingly acting alone, BTW.)

This is a true game of chicken, though. Assad may not fully grasp that fact yet. Putin and the UN do. President Obama will not (cannot) change course but he is playing the game very slowly to give Assad enough time to figure it out.

I have never given my opinion on the correct action in Syria. And now I won't even cast any doubt on whether Obama will act if Assad refuses to cooperate. I'm just a person on the internet. But I know this game.

[Waiting For Everyman]

71. I was saying last night that this reminded me of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

And it still does. Obama is a good man for this sort of moment just as JFK was (I remember it well btw).

It's only the beginning of this. But there is reason for hope that it may yet end alright.

[DevonRex]

75. How right you are. It's only the beginning.

Who knows what's going on behind the scenes and how many mini crises there will be. Just like October 1962 we're dealing with Russia again. How fitting it's with an old Cold War warrior. I'm getting chilly just thinking about it.

[Waiting For Everyman]

79. They say history repeats.

But we have to look at the history that is applicable. We're so focused on our scars from Iraq/Afghanistan right now, we can't think of much else. But I have such a strong CMC deja vu, it's crazy! It's another super-scary "wild card" situation. And yes, with the Russians again and a state under its wing having weapons that are unacceptable.

[Zorra]

72. That's pretty much what I see as well. The sword of Damocles thing. nt

[Autumn]

58. You need another edit per Rice

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023630987 Turns out the "overarching goal" is regime change.

[Junkdrawer]

60. Whew, Peace Threatened and the Administration quickly responded....

Close call.

Nothing a last-minute move of goalposts can't fix....

We have aways been at war with East Asia (and demanding Regime Change!)

[kentuck]

70. Do we want to destroy the chemical weapons or do we want to go to war??

It's hard to say...????

[Jamastiene]

74. If I didn't know better,

I would say they are trying to do a Three Stooges performance art piece. It's hard to tell any more. Or is this more of that 50 dimensional chess we keep hearing about?

We'll still most likely bomb Syria anyhow though, just for the hell of it.

[Just Saying]

77. Did you read what Kerry actually said in context?

Please do so because he simply wasn't making Syria an offer. Once we realize that's just not true, the rest isn't as head slapping. The press is what's made this confusing and what he said was indeed rhetorical.

[KittyWampus]

78. Remember the thread you started years ago where we are on a ship at sea

and every time the ship approaches the face of another huge wave, DU collectively shouts OH SHIT WE'RE DOOMED!

and every time the ship approaches the back of another huge wave, DU collectively shouts YEAH WE'RE SAVED!

I always remembered that thread and think of it from time to time on DU.

[TM99]

80. It is pretty simple actually William.

Obama is 'believed' to be an Nth Dimensional chess master.

Putin actually is a real Judo Master.

This is apparent. He waited for the opponent to expend his energy, get off balance, and then leave an open.

Putin took it. If he can get Assad to do this, and the UN supports it, which I suspect they will, this is an excellent outcome.

No military strikes. No loose chemical weapons on the government's side. Assad is reigned in a bit. The civil war continues, yes, but if their are atrocities with gas again, we will know it was the rebels & can deal with them accordingly.

The Obama administration can now return to vigorous governance of domestic matters, and with his new found hutzpah, he will roll throw Single Payer, start a jobs program, cut the military budget, protect future Soc Sec & Medicare, bail out the students with excessive & draconian loans, and stand up finally to the GOP to get this all accomplished.

He has shown us he can get 'energetic' and 'whip' the GOP into line.

Well, part of my post is reality, and the other is just a fantasy.

I will let you figure out which.