To the 11-dimensional chess fans out there

[DisgustipatedinCA]

It's a very good thing that we appear to be backing away from the edge of war. But for those who are saying that Obama and Kerry had this planned, you're not thinking things through. Barack Obama is taking a pretty big hit in the polls for his Syria moves. This is going to hurt Democrats in the mid-terms, and the President understands this. Barack Obama is being seen as a blunderer on the world stage. Yes, it could have been much, much worse if he'd gone to war, but he's still going to take a pretty big hit for this. No amount of trying to persuade liberals on DU that the President brilliantly planned all of this is going to make any difference. Even if we all suddenly saw things your way, it doesn't mean the rest of the world is going to be so swayed. The President committed an error in judgment, but then followed it with a wise decision to grab the life ring that was thrown his way. In the end, the most important thing is that we are backing away from the brink, at least for now. But it makes the place look silly to try and invent a backstory that plays the President as the unblemished hero.

[flamingdem]

1. In both cases he acted with conviction

and in accord with world treaties. Many wanted to back away from those agreements out of fear.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

4. He may have acted with conviction, but he also committed an error in judgment. n/t

[bhikkhu]

13. Stating one's convictions always creates the potential for error

the possibility for loss of "face", and failure. That's why more people don't do it publicly.

[creon]

52. describe

Describe, in detail, this 'error in judgement'.

[Laelth]

55. I'd be curious to know what you think the President's error in judgment was.

From my perspective, Syria is and has been a no-win situation, and the President has handled it as well as could have been hoped. He and the Democratic Party did take a slight political hit, but it could have been a lot worse.

Just fyi, I say this as a DU poster who has been banned from the BOG, so it's not like I am one of the President's ever-loyal boosters.

-Laelth

[DisgustipatedinCA]

66. I think that creating the "red line" was an error in judgment.

It's what got Obama to this point. I also think it was an error to state his intent to strike Syria militarily when we don't have definitive proof that it was Assad who used chemical weapons. Yes, I believe that Assad is responsible for the chemical attack, but we don't yet have rock-solid proof of that, and we need proof before the missiles start flying. And finally, the attempt to undersell the bombing campaign was in error, in my view. It looked ridiculous for Kerry to say that the bombing would be unimaginably small.

By the way, thanks for the civil tone. There are those in this thread who'd like to make this all about me and my many character flaws. It's kind of nice to see disagreement that doesn't foam at the mouth.

[Laelth]

74. O.K. I see what you mean.

In hindsight, I suppose the red line was an error in judgment. All the same, it was a reasonable risk, I think. If the line hadn't been crossed (and I seriously doubt that Assad was the one who crossed it), we wouldn't be having this discussion. I can't blame the President for trying to prevent the use of poison gas. He, perhaps, could have left himself some wiggle room. All the same, I see the political damage as minimal. I don't think we'll be talking about the red line during the 2014 midterm elections.

As to civility, you are quite welcome, and I appreciate your reciprocating.

Regards,

-Laelth

[flamingdem]

80. Agree, and imagine if Rmoney was in charge

His ego would have driven us into all out war by now. Or worse!

[LondonReign2]

71. "acting with conviction" is what we heard a lot about during the Shrub years

It's a piss poor substitute for acting with intelligence

[NYC_SKP]

2. I think your POV that he looks like a blunderer is, in reality, held by a tiny minority.

I don't know if he had it planned or not.

And neither of us know how it will play out.

But it's damn sure better than the outcomes of anything that ever crossed his predecessor's path, and only a fool would think otherwise.

[dmr]

18. Amen!

[AtomicKitten]

20. truth

ty

[reformist2]

44. All's well that ends well!

[Whisp]

48. Only a fool. You are correct!

and Obama is no fool.

some people will never be satisfied with Anything the man does.

[Number23]

70. Nicely said. The sputtering rage that some have because the president is getting kudos and

praise over his handling of this issue is absolutely telling. And more than little bit hilarious.

[Bobbie Jo]

77. +1000

[AZ Mike]

3. I stopped reading....

....after you offered that Obama's polls now will have some material effect on the midterms 14 months from now. Anything else you could possibly have said after that is completely irrelevant because it likely builds on that ridiculous premise.

If Obama pulls all of Syria's WMDs out of its possession without putting the world on the brink (or delving it directly into) WWIII is a legacy-defining action. It was one of Ed, Randi, or Thom who said that if this is pulled off, Obama belongs on Mt Rushmore. That is true. The midterms will follow from that....

[DisgustipatedinCA]

5. If you weren't able to get farther than that, this thread may not be right for you.

[AZ Mike]

7. Of course....

Wonderful response.

Thank you for your contribution.

Your star shines bright.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

9. Where there's a will, there's an A.

[Scootaloo]

14. Which is strange...

As I was told by several people here that not demanding war with Syria would be a hideous disaster for the Democrats... 14 months down the road.

[ProSense]

6. No,

"It's a very good thing that we appear to be backing away from the edge of war. But for those who are saying that Obama and Kerry had this planned, you're not thinking things through. Barack Obama is taking a pretty big hit in the polls for his Syria moves. This is going to hurt Democrats in the mid-terms, and the President understands this. Barack Obama is being seen as a blunderer on the world stage. Yes, it could have been much, much worse if he'd gone to war, but he's still going to take a pretty big hit for this. No amount of trying to persuade liberals on DU that the President brilliantly planned all of this is going to make any difference. Even if we all suddenly saw things your way, it doesn't mean the rest of the world is going to be so swayed. The President committed an error in judgment, but then followed it with a wise decision to grab the life ring that was thrown his way. In the end, the most important thing is that we are backing away from the brink, at least for now. But it makes the place look silly to try and invent a backstory that plays the President as the unblemished hero."

...just no. I mean, it seems that this episode is causing consternation among those who believe that somehow the world saw President Obama as a "blunderer" and now can't accept that they were wrong.

Here's the reality:

This situation only came about because of Kerry's comment and Russia's response. Putin had absolutely no reason to give Obama an out, and he certainly had no reason to put Assad on the spot (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023630685). He could have ignored Kerry's statement and let things proceed as before.

Putin knew the deal. He was under pressure to do something other than obstruct. That is why he jumped on Kerry's offer.

Obama has already proven to the majority of people who have an official say that Assad did it. Members of Congress and the international community have condemned Assad.

A no vote in Congress would not mean the problem would go away. It would have been a set back, likely sparking comments about how Obama handled the situation, but that's no different from what was happening before today.

Regardless of how Congress votes, members have condemned Assad. They agree with the assessment regarding Assad's use of chemicals. That's why you have members who don't support the President's approach offering their own proposals, and any way you slice it, those proposals are ultimatums.

There is also the UN, which even before today's developments, was prepared to act after its report. The statements by members of the G-20 and the EU means the international community was not going to let up. More countries comdemned Assad today.

The situation is still unfolding, and Assad still has to do the right thing.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

8. I'm not experiencing consternation, just mild embarrassment on behalf of the site

As I mentioned, this looks a little ridiculous. Claims like this make the claimants look like they're flailing, and it makes their other utterances less believable, in aggregate.

As to Putin needing to do something productive, head back to the fax machine and get something else. You'd need to actually name some person or entity who can bring that sort of pressure on Putin. You're not going to be able to name that person or entity, but I'm asking anyway. Who can bring that kind of pressure on Putin? The obvious counterpoint is that Putin got something he wanted out of the deal. That doesn't fit with the Obama-as-Marlboro-Man image, but it's much more likely than the notion you're floating.

[ProSense]

10. The OP statement should be a source of "embarrassment," not "the site." n/t

[DisgustipatedinCA]

22. Nothing re Putin? Noted.

[zipplewrath]

57. Not sure where you're getting this

You asserted something like this several times:

This situation only came about because of Kerry's comment and Russia's response. Putin had absolutely no reason to give Obama an out, and he certainly had no reason to put Assad on the spot (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023630685). He could have ignored Kerry's statement and let things proceed as before.

Putin knew the deal. He was under pressure to do something other than obstruct. That is why he jumped on Kerry's offer.

Russia's interest here is to keep Assad in power, or at least keep people in power favorable to them. They don't like most of the rebels anymore than we do. They also see Saudi's hand in some of this (whether that is true or not) and they've never been on good terms with them. Putin also seems to extract some guilty pleasure it screwing around with Obama/US. I'm not sure where you think this "pressure to do something other than obstruct" is coming from. Obstructing is one of the powers Putin has.

And it wasn't exactly and "offer" on the part of Kerry. Kerry was obviously "making it up" (probably really more of a case of repeating something that was discussed in a meeting at
State but rejected as useless, impractical, or impossible) as he went along, and in fact threw in the "but that will never happen" because of it. What we don't know is if Obama said anything similar at the G20 conference to Putin. It could have been as much of a "gaffe" as Kerry (in neither case is the accurately described as a "gaffe", it was a diplomatic comment. It is the person appearing to take the question or concept "seriously" even if they don't believe there is any real chance).

Now, Andrew Sullivan made an interesting point about Obama's style here. Whether you like the process that Obama was taking, he has been vastly more willing (in general) to "put things out there" and then react to how others engage his ideas. He generally doesn't take some sort of "my way or the highway" approach. He has been almost TOO willing in some cases to incorporate external inputs into his processes. He has been truly willing to "have the debate/discussion" on issues, often to the consternation of his base who expected him to actually stand up for things.

So once this developed, even if it was as much a surprise to him as anyone, he was more than willing to ultimately react to it, instead of "getting out in front and stopping this" as Bush/Cheney may have.

And we are all being a bit premature here. This very easily could be a stalling tactic on the part of Assad/Putin. For this to actually work Putin is actually going to have to push this. He's going to have to actually push Assad, put some teeth in this thing, and do some diplomacy. I'm not all that sure he has the skills. Furthermore, the French have their own ideas, so someone is going to have to work that angle, which probably means Kerry.

But Sullivan did suggest that if this all works out, it could actually be a major accomplishment on Obama's part, getting Putin fully engaged in diplomacy in the region on a cooperative basis. The US has spent the better part of 60 years trying to avoid allowing Russia to have influence in this region. This could be a whole new thang.

Not that I have my hopes up, but I'm willing to watch and wait.

[CakeGrrl]

11. Here it is: "Putin saves the President's hide"

Sorry the President won't look as bad as you may have hoped, but Putin isn't giving him a break.

A bunch of people here got their woo on that he was just going to wage "war" no matter what. There was no basis for that other than a bunch of group reinforcement convincing one another that was the case.

He went to Congress and technically didn't have to. That is not consistent with the "OMGZ! WARMONGER!" popular theme. Does not compute.

Go ask Congress if they think the evidence that was presented was a bunch of b.s., or whether they'll just vote against any action because they think it'll screw him over because OPTICS!

[TroglodyteScholar]

50. Look up "woo." n/t

[delrem]

12. I don't care the ridiculous speculations.

I'm glad it seem we're back from the brink of ultimate stupidity.

[AtomicKitten]

23. exactly!

[Summer Hathaway]

15. Looks like those who don't understand chess,

11-dimensional or otherwise, have their noses out of joint tonight - as they always do when Obama outsmarts them yet again.

Maybe you should all just stick with checkers.

[delrem]

24. heh, I can't believe anyone would actually post that! too funny.

[Summer Hathaway]

28. Just like I can't believe

that people who don't have the intellect necessary to master Candyland think they're waaaaay smarter than Obama.

Too funny!

[ocpagu]

33. I had to wonder for sometime if was sarcasm or not... n/t

[Cha]

26. Or

Twister.

[Tx4obama]

16. I think Obama is not worried about his poll numbers or his legacy.

Obama is much more worried about and focus on preventing Assad from using additional chemical weapons in the future.

If Obama were to decide to ignore the deaths caused by sarin-gas in order to make sure all the pretty poll numbers were not affected - well then THAT is what I would find to be disgusting and inappropriate.

And America will have moved on from the Syria issue by the time campaign season winds up - folks will have other things to be outraged about by then.

[grahamhgreen]

21. What's worse, sketchy WMD claims response, or WWIII?

[Lifelong Dem]

17. Obama planned to rid Syria of CW's.

I think he is on his way to accomplishing this.

[grahamhgreen]

19. BOG folks need to be reasoned and not cocky. We all MAY luck out on this, but we need some support

on jobs, that means ending the costly trade agreements, limiting CEO pay, and breaking up low wage monopolies like Walmart.

...Assuming Obama never attacks Syria, staring WWIII in the process.....

TLDR; we've lucked out for now, don't screw it up.

[DevonRex]

29. This is FAR from over. very far. I am the first to say it.

This is a real game of chicken. The threat of a strike is very real. That is why PBO refuses to say whether he will follow Congress's will. Assad, Russia and the UN have to know he will strike. That is what got them to the table.

PBO is willing to look like a warmonger, a madman, a weakling, a socialist radical, Al Qaeda AND a Zionist, whatever names people throw at him (and they've all been used over THIS crisis unbelievably) to get this resolved.

But in the end, this is real. Putin knows it. He has to convince Assad.

[dkf]

25. I'm just glad he stumbled, fumbled, and bumbled his way into a possible solution.

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

Frankly if he were insanely awesome at strategy, we wouldn't be at a semi-permanent stalemate in congress.

[Summer Hathaway]

30. Well, yes, of course.

According to some, Obama bumbled his way into the presidency - against all odds as a black man, and against the foregone conclusion that it would be Hillary in '08.

He then bumbled his way into getting the US closer to a universal healthcare system than any other president before him.

He went on to bumble his way out of Iraq, and into regaining the respect for the US that had been all but destroyed by his predecessor.

Still bumbling along, he accomplished a mile-long list of goals that Democrats and progressives have been wanting to see achieved for decades, in every area from the environment, to GLBT rights, to jobs on the rise, home ownership on the rise, all the while whittling away at the deficit he'd inherited.

Now, if you want to attribute all of this to lucky accidents, you go right ahead and do so - even though it seems rather obvious that the one doing the stumbling, bumbling and fumbling is you.

[dkf]

34. No. The campaign was very very impressive so that was not an accident.

The ACA is a mess.

We got out of Iraq because they refused to give immunity to our soldiers after Bradley Manning showed videos of Iraqi civilians being killed.

[Summer Hathaway]

36. I see you're still spouting

the RW talking points that once led to a lengthy Meta thread, where people were demanding an explanation as to why you were still permitted to post here.

I think it says a lot for the DU community's "forgive and forget" nature that all of that is now water under the bridge - and your anti-Obama screeds have now caused you to be embraced as one of their own.

Yes, it says a LOT about DU.

[dkf]

37. I'm no fangirl certainly. I couldn't stand when Republicans did it for Bush and its just as

repulsive when its Democrats.

I will give props when they are due and if Obama hauls himself out of this one he will get a star from me for coming to his senses.

[Summer Hathaway]

41. No, he won't get a 'star' from you

You'll be spouting about how he bumbled his way into yet another victory - just like he bumbled his way into all of his other "accidental" achievements.

You DO know how transparent you are, right? I'd hate to think you're naive enough to think you're fooling anyone.

Then again, maybe you just keep "bumbling" your way into "accidentally" pushing RW narratives on a Democratic website.

[dkf]

42. Ha! You seem to not realize I'm to the left of Obama, and you are to the right of me.

Who is more anti war, you or me? Who is more pro NSA, you or me? Who favors the ACA and who favors Canadian style health care?

You are to the right of me if you favor all that so please get your facts straight. People who can see no wrong in what Obama is doing have swung to the right and you don't even know it!

[Summer Hathaway]

73. Save it, sister

You didn't wind up as the topic of that Meta thread for being to "the left of Obama".

[pkdu]

38. ^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

[dionysus]

67. yeah... notice how they've now tried to take on an uber liberal persona...

never mind all the pro rw, pro banker, pro austerity posts that generated that thread to which you refer.

hmm....

[avaistheone1]

35. Amen.

[DevonRex]

27. Thankfully most are better educated in game theory, brinksmanship,

the Cuban Missile Crisis, the classic game of Chicken, Nash, Theory of Moves, Cold War diplomacy and Middle East strategy than the basic Republican, Libertarian and Fox pundit in the US.

It looks like you might want to brush up on those topics yourself. Perhaps it's just been too long since you were in the classroom.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

31. I'll use your condescension to emphasize a point

You're not the first, only the latest to be condescending toward me because of my post. Ok, lets say you win, you really got me, made me red-faced with shame, etc, etc.

You have gained nothing. This isn't about me. This is about the public's perception of the President and the job he's doing. Congratulations. You won dick.

[SammyWinstonJack]

56. That poster didn't win. Is well deserving of dick status, however.

[elias7]

65. What is the matter with you? n/t

[Hydra]

68. I'm with Sammy

That wasn't a win, it was an attempted snowjob...and as usual, with no facts to back it up, it makes it hard to believe the poster understands basic logic let alone political strategy.

[BelgianMadCow]

32. In both german papers I check, this potential breakthrough was attributed to Russia

both the Sueddeutsche & the Frankfurter Allgemeine interpreted Kerry's statement as "throwaway" and gave the credit to Russia for seizing the opportunity.

I'm happy in any case, but this didn't look planned at all.

That being said, you have to wonder why nobody (say, Russia) didn't come up with this sooner. The threat of violence must have played a role and the US deserves credit for that.

It could all work out fine. I hope we don't get a "see, they're not complying with inspectors, let's bomb NOW"-Iraq-moment.

[davidpdx]

39. ...

[AnotherMcIntosh]

40. Why should a person who wants the TPP and a chained CPI care about the mid-terms?

[Broward]

43. and Larry Summers too.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

63. Yes.

Welcome to DU.

[bahrbearian]

45. It was 11 dimensional chess that got us out of Iraq right.

Oh wait ,we were kicked-out using Bush's time table.

[avaistheone1]

83. Ditto.

Six more long years of war.

[SidDithers]

46. ...

Keep trying.

Sid

[mrdmk]

81. Please, tell us what you find so funny

[sufrommich]

47. This won't even be remembered by the mid terms.

This OP reads like a need to be outraged regardless of outcome,a lot like "Benghazi!" is for freepers.

[alcibiades_mystery]

49. The sputtering rage and insistence that Obama get credit for absolutely zero is really instructive

Every one of them had to have their little hate post. It's almost as if they're disappointed that there will probably be no attack. This is, of course, deeply ironic, since they all claim to be anti-war blah blah. But deep down? I wonder if they don't enjoy the anger they derive from military action just a little too much. Very weird postings on this board since last night.

Of course, you will now get five or six of them attacking in pack formation, something something about a "BOG" or some such. (Note, I've never posted a single of my 29,000+ posts in anything called a BOG, or any candidate group at all).

[creon]

51. yes

Yes, it is, a 'tell'

[idwiyo]

53. Nah, you know it was all n-dimensional chess. Really!

[treestar]

54. Why is it so upsetting that you had to make an OP

to make sure you told us Democrats that we should never think a Democratic President should get any credit for anything?

I can see you are panicking that there a Democrats who think the Democratic President might have handled this well.

[madrchsod]

58. liberals on du?

so you are saying you are a conservative democrat?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

78. If that's what you took from my OP

It may be that this thread isn't suited to you or your tastes.

[woo me with science]

59. The bleating propaganda machine

thinks this is fictional Oceania and that blaring "2 + 2 = 5" will awe the masses.

In reality, not just Americans, but the whole world, can still count.

[Hydra]

69. "Sanity is not statistical"

The problem is that they are attempting to make enough noise to make the people who know better doubt. This is straight from the top propaganda...who knew we elected a President from "our" party that needed this kind of message control? You don't need message control when you're doing things people approve of.

[woo me with science]

72. Perfectly said.

There appears to be a status quo now of brazen, lying, Orwellian propaganda as the preferred method of communicating with the US public, and that should chill every single American.

[MineralMan]

64. Feint.

A key strategy in chess.

[Safetykitten]

75. "But it makes the place look silly to try and invent a backstory" Oh but they will desperately try..

[BlueStreak]

79. It is worse than that. They are getting played by the Russians.

When the dust settles, a lot of people will be asking "what just happened?" It is not even within the realm of possibility that Putin and Assad are really planning to come clean. It is just a little trickery to stall while the world has time to turn its attention elsewhere. But that suits Obama just fine. Although he has royally screwed up our election chances, at least he protected the hundreds of billions in dark budgets for the NSA and friends.

Let me remind everybody that there was a whole series of "alleged" chemical attacks over the past 9 months. Obama didn't react until he decided he needed something to break up the Snowden cycle.

[Doctor_J]

82. Yeah, the Bush Tax Cut debacle was similar

that was also trumpeted as a big win. There are many who refuse to accept the truth. The revisionism will help somewhat, but he will continue to govern as a Reagan Republican and that is frankly not what people voted for.