Completely and utterly delusional!

[JackRiddler]

My friend Jenna Pope puts it thusly on Facebook. There's more to it - a lot of complexity to the situation - but the relevant truth is incredibly simple. If you've watched the serial killer of nations at work, are you really going to make excuses for its latest proposal of murder?

Anybody who thinks the US attacks other countries in order to help the people living there is completely and utterly delusional. The US government doesn't give a fuck about it's own people, many of whom are living in poverty while just a few control the majority of the wealth... so what makes you think they would care about people living overseas?

A small amount of people have been saying they agree with the possibility of a US military strike in Syria. Perhaps intervention in some way is needed, but do you really want the US - a country that is known for beginning wars based off of lies, and committing atrocities during these "wars" - to get in the middle of this with a military strike? There has already been enough suffering and death in Syria... I do not wish for them to now have to deal with another government who looks to wage war and kill for their own benefit.

[VanillaRhapsody]

1. Just reply

"Obamacares" nuff said.

[cali]

3. simplistic nonsense

I can play too:

letting the banksters off. nuff said.

[VanillaRhapsody]

6. what?

the poster said that this person says Obama doesn't care about people at home...bullshit...and bullshit to your response....We know your Obama hatred runs deep....you don't have to keep reminding us.

Oh and you should go to:

http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com

where are you from by the way...just curious.

[shenmue]

10. Thank you

I just can't deal with the raving hatred at DU today. I can't take it anymore. They hate the President more than Fox News does, for pity's sake.

[Maedhros]

16. Read again.

The name "Obama" does not appear in the OP. The post refers to the United States' history of foreign intervention.

You are projecting your issue onto the OP. This is not about personalities or "hating." The OP is an accurate description of how the United States behaves towards its own people and the people of the countries we attack.

[VanillaRhapsody]

32. Perhaps YOU should read again....Reading for comprehension this time...

"A small amount of people have been saying they agree with the possibility of a US military strike in Syria"

I think this directly addresses Obama...don't you? After all...he was the one making that threat am I right?

then goes on to say American doesn't care about its own people...As for how that works. Well I have a question I ask ALL Republicans..."name one thing that Republicans have done FOR the American people not to them" I almost never get a response...

so for you to see the answer to that question with regards to President Barack Obama:

http://whathasobamadonesofar.com

[progressoid]

40. It points to a larger picture

where our government, including, but not limited to Pres Obama, has it's priorities just a little bit fucked up.

Republicans are the main source of the problem, but Democrats are hardly without blame.

[VanillaRhapsody]

44. No that isn't what it said....that's you projecting what it said...

[progressoid]

62. Derp.

Nor does it have anything to do with whathasobamadonesofar.god.

But that didn't stop you from posting that.

[VanillaRhapsody]

72. derp back at yah

because "not care about Americans"

I posted that to prove that is bullshit!

But of course it's just derp to you..

[lumpy]

70. Some posters on DU must suffer from the same malady.

[Maedhros]

60. You do not argue in good faith, and your posts are devoid of content

other than rank hagiography and sneering at those who disagree with you. Therefore, I don't really lend much weight to your arguments.

[lumpy]

71. Rather hypocritical to say that, isn't it?

[VanillaRhapsody]

74. right...seems the same groupthink all saying the same thing...

hahahahah...right.

You betcha I am sneering at you today...

[Th1onein]

127. He's right. You do NOT argue in good faith, VanillaRhapsody.

You refuse to look at FACTS that would prove you to be wrong. That's a closed mind, and it really is a waste of time for people who have open minds, to argue with someone like that. I am not trying to be unkind, but it is true.

[VanillaRhapsody]

130. Do you think I give a rats what you think?

people with "open minds"....you MUST be high!

I have put up with a lot of shit around here lately simply for being a supporter of the Democratic President of the United States. I was called a "Obamabot"..and "Obamahumper"..."warmonger" and "bloodthirsty" the list goes on and on. Its been quite ugly....and now the tables have turned. And MY MY MY have the mighty fallen. NOW they are whining that people are picking on them....

Spare me your false platitudes...

[Th1onein]

141. I see NO ONE whining except for you, VR.

I am sorry that people called you names. I assure you, I wasn't one of them.

As for the tables being "turned," I'm not sure what you're talking about, as I told you on another thread.

Are you talking about Obama finally agreeing to seek a peaceful solution to Syria? If so, as an anti-war activist, I am heartily glad of it. I don't see any "tables turned." I got exactly what I wanted, and I think that most of us on here who are anti-war, also got what we wanted.

Did YOU want another military intervention in the Middle East? Is that what YOU wanted?

[VanillaRhapsody]

142. I am not whining...I am gloating

Unfortunately you don't know the difference...

I wanted the Chem Weapons OUT ....I got what I wanted. The Obama Failure some wanted were sadly disappointed. And don't tell me there wasn't LOTS of Obama hatred around here...it was downright disgusting.

[Th1onein]

143. Jesus, don't you GET it?

Somebody called you names........waaaaa! THAT'S whining.

EVERYONE wanted chem weapons out; ESPECIALLY anti-war people. No one here hates Obama, unless it's a rightwing troll.

Can you not understand that some of us are deeply opposed to war? Can you not understand that war, that these military interventions into the Middle East are bankrupting this country? Can you not see that every time we wage yet another war, we are told by the rightwingers that we can't afford to feed our children, to care for our elderly, to educate our young?

If Obama is pro-war, we are against him, in terms of that policy. We are anti-war. If Obama is pro-spying on Americans, we are against him, in terms of that policy, because we support Democratic ideals. It's not that anyone here hates Obama. This is not a schoolyard game. We CAN disagree with his policies and still be liberals.

Good grief.

[cui bono]

150. +1

[Flatulo]

166. Lovely post. Thank you.

[VanillaRhapsody]

173. I am anti-chemical weapons...do you not GET that?

and without some saber rattling...THAT wouldn't have happened would it?

Admit it sometimes you have to be willing to make a stand. No risk no gain.

[U4ikLefty]

179. BS

[VanillaRhapsody]

180. Really now?

how would you have gotten Assad to do what he did?

Ask him pretty please?

[truedelphi]

147. The1onein, hang in there. I keep feeling

(When I encounter DU'ers with closed minds) that the annoying expression my son used as a teenager, that whiny and indulgent "Whatever!" -- it finally has found a reason for being.

There isn't any way you or I can take the time to explain
very.slowly.
to any in the "ObamaBecause" crowd, as their minds are not going to be able to take in new information. For people in that group, "ObamaBecause" is the most information their minds can handle and process.

So for them, my using "Whatever" is as good a response as any.

i never thought I would find a use for that expression, and the three years it got used on me seemed like the longest three years of my life, but right now I am grateful for the term being introduced to me.

[VanillaRhapsody]

174. I think you are a bit confused about who has a closed mind?

I am the one that doesn't take ANY method of removing WMD's from the playing field...YOU are the ones that want to eliminate methods of doing that. By your standards...we cannot even even use threats (that you have to be willing to follow through on) to do it. Do you think Assad would give them up if we had just asked him "pretty please"?

[truedelphi]

176. Whatever!

Bah Dah Bing!

[VanillaRhapsody]

177. uh huh....

"yes.....pretty please Mr Assad....please turn over your Chemical weapons and sign this CWA treaty right here on the dotted line"


Yep that would happen....

[Comrade Grumpy]

104. You are correct. Therefore: Don't feed the trolls.

[Maedhros]

105. Consider me properly chastised. [n/t]

[VanillaRhapsody]

123. that gives you an easy out huh?

Americans (like Obama) stand up for themselves....and don't back down...no matter what their critics say!

[Raksha]

175. LOL! You noticed that too, huh?

Re "You do not argue in good faith, and your posts are devoid of content other than rank hagiography and sneering at those who disagree with you."

[AgingAmerican]

153. Dont be so hypersensitive

nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

181. What part of that is hypersensitive to you?

inquiring minds want to know...

[lumpy]

48. What country can you name that the US hasn't supported whole heartedly post war.

[lumpy]

67. Nothing like picking flies out of the Mayonnaise ....

[Th1onein]

126. Thank you for reminding the people who think that anyone who dares to criticize this government's

policies under Obama MUST be rascist.

Or pro-Rand. Or anti-Democratic. Or rightwingers.

I am so sick of it.

[VanillaRhapsody]

132. too bad.....the worm has turned hasn't it?

take your medicine!

[Th1onein]

133. What in the WORLD are you talking about?

Now, you're making no sense at all. Geez.

[VanillaRhapsody]

134. Right....sure...thats good deflection...

not. Whatever gets you through the night.

[Th1onein]

139. Once again, it is not clear WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

What is it about that statement you don't get?

[VanillaRhapsody]

140. putting your fingers in your ears and going la la la I cannot hear you

is not the same thing as not understanding...its deliberate.

[Th1onein]

144. I give up. Your post made no sense, you were asked to explain it.

And all you can do is lob insults at someone asking for you to explain it. Unbelievable.

Welcome to Ignore, VR. Have a good long rest there.

[VanillaRhapsody]

146. ooooh my feelings are hurt...

nothing tells me I struck a nerve more than to have a poster ***ANNOUNCE*** that they have put me on ignore! It is supposed to make me haz a sad I guess...instead I call it:

Winning!

[truth2power]

161. Maedhros...you are exactly correct in your reading of the OP....

I have said that, here, numerous times. The US Govt. doesn't give a fat rat's ass about whether women go to school, whether they have to wear Burkas, whether children are gassed or turned into red mist by our Hellfire missiles, whether we win hearts and minds, and ESPECIALLY whether Democracy takes root in other countries.

In fact, if Democracy threatens to take root in any other country, we go in to make sure it is stamped out, as has been shown time and again throughout our history.

You are correct in stating, "The OP is an accurate description of how the United States behaves towards its own people and the people of the countries we attack." And, yes, they are projecting.

On the other hand, since Barak Obama is currently serving in the Executive capacity of this slow-motion train wreck we call a government, he owns and is responsible for the atrocities being visited upon the ME populace by the policies of his administration.

His supporters will just have to deal with it.

[lumpy]

43. Thanks for posting the site

[1StrongBlackMan]

122. LOL …

I can play too: letting the banksters off. nuff said.

VR … While calling B.S. on that response, you could have asked: “How would going after, and even jailing, every bankster, be an indicator of a ‘care about the people at home’?”

Creating a mechanism designed to prevent further looting (even if imperfect) … which Democrats did … demonstrates concern for the American people; vengeance against the looters … not so much. But it does roll off the talking point tongue, huh?

[VanillaRhapsody]

124. thank you 1strong...good point. I was busy on many threads last night and didnt

have enough time to make every point. But that one is an excellent point...thanks!

[JackRiddler]

184. "Creating a mechanism designed to prevent further looting"

Give it up. No one outside the bubble of party-line "Beltway" "talking points" Democrats (thankfully not a majority in this party) believes that crap. When do you imagine the looting ever stopped?!

[JackRiddler]

168. You are making up quotes.

Your posts are incredibly dishonest. Wouldn't matter, except that at your typical five-word length you're suddenly flooding the board with this low-grade pro-war propaganda that would have been no different if this was 2003.

This person did not say "Obama doesn't care about people."

She correctly avoids even mentioning the name of this person, who is not particularly consequential in this matter.

She correctly talks about the system that fucks people in the U.S. while finding reasons to waste all its extra money on the MIC, empire, and wars abroad.

[salib]

12. Yeah, I am tired of the Sarah Palin like nonsense I see here.

Gotta point it out, but they just "have a come-back".

Pitiful.

[lumpy]

57. Doubt Palin is of the same ilk that these ignoramouses exibit. Are these people so disillusioned and

wanting of something they don't have? Sick.

[lumpy]

47. The subject was about war and what an uncaring, war mongering country nation the US is.

[VanillaRhapsody]

75. as If our ally's have no faults..

nuff said!

[lark]

101. Can I play?

Killing single payer option
Offering to cut the rate of increase for social security
illegal spying on American communications, including storing of content
Edward Snowden
drones in America

Need I go on? Obama sounds like he cares for us when he's campaigning, afterwards, not so much.

[nashville_brook]

102. +1

[VanillaRhapsody]

125. "Killing single payer option"??

it didn't happen...but that doesn't mean it won't....some things just don't happen the way you want at the time you want.

SS? I haven't seen mine cut..

We have yet to see any evidence of the illegal spying (including storing of content).

Edward Snowden Putin's pet? seriously?

I haven't seen a drone so far....have you?

Need I go on?

but for you I will repeat:
http://whathefuckhasobamadonesofar.com.

[lark]

164. He's proposed all these things

He removed single payer
He proposed cutting the rate of increase for social security
Drones - get real
Bury your head in the sand if you want, that way you don't have to notice any inconvenient truths.

[VanillaRhapsody]

165. Proposing and doing are two very different things...

Do you understand poker at all? When you are facing idiots with power that oppose everything you do....you better be plenty cagey.

[marew]

128. +2 nt

[LukeFL]

131. Love it!!

[Hydra]

2. War isn't done to help people

That's one of the biggest myths there is, next to Corporations being able to regulate themselves.

You help people by giving them opportunities and support. We do neither. We kill and we take.

We're good capitalists, after all.

[shenmue]

13. I guess you'd rather we'd not gone into Germany and France and Japan, all those years ago

Those people lived so far away. Why were they our problem, again?



Grow up.

[Hydra]

15. ...Pardon me while I'm stunned

You know less history than me? I don't even study it professionally.

Hint: The Nazis didn't get where they did without the help of US corporations.

[HangOnKids]

25. Don't be stunned

It is very sad.

[lumpy]

55. Lies don't work. What country do you live in? Educate yourself, seek history not other people

who hate the United States.

[Hydra]

73. I'm sorry, you didn't know?

But documents discovered in German and American archives show a much more complicated picture. In certain instances, American managers of both GM and Ford went along with the conversion of their German plants to military production at a time when U.S. government documents show they were still resisting calls by the Roosevelt administration to step up military production in their plants at home.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm

Prescott Bush supplied the Nazis with money until someone finally put a stop to it. IBM also supplied punchcard computers which helped with the Holocaust.

Just remember, we were lily pure in our activities and intentions...just like we are now.

[rhett o rick]

109. I believe it was Standard Oil that kept the Germans in fuel. nm

[Hydra]

112. Back when I was becoming politically aware

I heard how 10 or so of the biggest companies in the US made millions(which would be billions in today's money) supplying the Nazis. Eugenics was an idea developed and implemented here first. Many supported the Nazi rise, and after the war we smuggled Nazi war criminals back here to be our "assets."

Large gap between the myth and the reality. I didn't know about Standard Oil, but big surprise Rockefeller was making a(nother) dirty fortune, right?

[bvar22]

119. Including the Bush Family.

Pappy Prescott Bush help finance Hitler.

[treestar]

58. I'm stunned the CTers don't buy the idea Pearl Harbor was a false flag

to get us into the war.

The Japanese were the aggressors. But they had no real chance of invading the mainland US. We could have stayed out of it, and today's so called anti war crowd (really isolationists) would have supported that and called FDR a warmonger.

[lumpy]

69. And with Hitler's help we might have been speaking Japanese

I wouldn't call these weirdos anti-warriors, more like anti-USAers.

[rhett o rick]

110. If you think the Japanese were the aggressors, you need to re-study your history. nm

[treestar]

111. WTF? nt

[lumpy]

63. Some people have lived through this history of war, maybe you'll get the opportunity..

[another_liberal]

27. Japan attacked us militarily.

Germany then declared war on us. Going to war in World War II was self preservation.

[lumpy]

77. That is the truth. Education and expanding knowledge beyond knowing the latest celebrity

scandal, love interest,babies born,latest fashion etc..history education is a good thing.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

79. well, if you our trade policies in the 30s, which led directly to

the attack on pearl, I suspect that the issue would appear a hell of a lot more complex. Germany, until unrestricted u-boat warfare, still had hopes that the US would join them instead of England. There was a large contingent of folks who wanted to go that route, too.

[another_liberal]

83. Maybe so.

Then as now, however, when the bombs start falling on your territory, or another nation officially declares war, it's no longer a debate.

[Cheviteau]

99. History lessons from...

...a crackerjack box. Trade policies? Japan was raping China. It was filling the Pacific Ocean with battleships and aircraft carriers. Every island nation and territory was threatened. And that raw military power was being projected very belligerently. The "trade policies" changes you speak of was the decision to stop selling crude oil to Japan. And could you name the "large contingent of folks" in this country that wanted to join Hitler? A few depraved idiots does not constitute a large contingent.
The history of mankind is not simple. You can't just throw goofy shit out there and claim it's history.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

100. do you even know how our policies were viewed by Japan?

Did you know we caused embargoes of food, tin, steel, and fuel? That loss of supply increased the chance of war, because it allowed the Japanese army that they needed to forcibly find new supplies.

Cracker Jack history? you are a myopic idiot, unread and unlearned about the war.

as for the large contingent supporting germany, ever hear of a guy named Kennedy? His son commanded a torpedo boat in the pacific theater. He, and many others, some in government, were supporters of Nazi germany. They also followed the Irish lead of not wanting to support the UK.

If you believe that there was monolithic support in favor of war with germany, then your number of posts exceed your IQ.

[Celefin]

34. All those years ago, Japan and Germany declared war on the US

Without that and also intense lobbying by Britain the US wouldn't have bothered.
A declaration of war might be interpreted as 'our problem', no?

Something, btw, no country in the Middle East has ever done. Waging humanitarian war or meddling in how governments are formed and supporting terrorist groups down there is just imperialism - none of the people there are better off today.

Grow some historic knowledge.

[MNBrewer]

80. Hysterial Hystory!!!

[Chaco Dundee]

94. took long enough to get there all those years ago.

Just to mop up the left overs and claim victory.

[dflprincess]

129. They were our problem because Japan attacked us and on December 11, 1941

Germany and Italy declared war against us. FDR did not ask for a declaration of war against Germany & Italy until December 12.

Read some history.

[lumpy]

46. Japan attacked the USA,remember? Should we have ignored that?

When Japan was defeated, Japan's doors to the rest of the world were opened, out of the dark ages into a modern world, rapidly joined the rest of the world and became a thriving country. Otherwise would they have remained a nation of subjected people?
Germany declared war on the USA in partnership with Japan. Germany became under Hitler one of the most blood thirsty nations in the history of the world. They were defeated with the blood of nations that were dedicated to rid the world of an inhuman regime that was intent on conquering the world through vicious means by killing all ethnic groups of all colors, beliefs, and those who believed in freedom. There were even positive results in Korea, the people who been under vicious repression of neighboring nations. I could go on......
This country has helped many peoples by giving them opportunities and support and continue to do so in times of stress, war and otherwise. Is it only about money ? No it is not.

[lumpy]

49. OK, so you hate the USA. Find a better place to spew your hate.

[Hydra]

53. lmao

Being anti-war is undemocratic now?

I guess Bush really did win.

[lumpy]

64. God, you are simplistic.

[Hydra]

68. Answer was tailored to level of comment

RWers used to say love it or leave it when Bush was in power. Feel free to continue their proud legacy of being utterly wrong.

[JackRiddler]

192. I love the American people and won't...

be chased out of my own country by the unpatriotic likes of you.

You must hate this country, since by denying the reality of its government's crimes you invite its eventual destruction.

Surely you'd be happier in an open dictatorship, why don't you find one for yourself?

[demwing]

4. Are you saying the United States is "the serial killer of nations"

and if so, isn't that a bit hyperbolic?

[DireStrike]

5. I agree, it's a poor analogy.

My understanding of the term "serial killer" is that it is someone who murders repeatedly for no reason other than their own desires. They usually can't help themselves and have all sorts of mental problems.

The US on the other hand enters into every military action with a purpose: profit. It does what it can get away with, and when people like Obama are at the helm, it tries to operate in a way that isn't blatantly imperialistic. It finds excellent excuses to do exactly what it wants. It's really more of a sociopath.

Note: "profit" extends to such things as resource control, trade opportunities, and maintaining regional influence. I'm not suggesting money is the primary motivator for Syria, but there is an oil pipeline at stake. And let's not forget the arms manufacturers.

[Demeter]

7. Among nations, it's called Imperialism

and the shoe fits like a glove! (pardon the mixed metaphors)

[lumpy]

91. Found a new word ? What nations has the US taken over for it's own benefit? Imperialism

is the wrong description, there are no Americans squatting in some far off country running the country.

[Demeter]

116. You can't be serious

Or are you completely unaware that graduates of the US bankster firm Goldman Sachs run every finance ministry in the Eurozone? That they are the reason why Europe is on the verge of revolution?

And what about those 1000+ military bases ( the black sites are not officially counted, of course)?

Not squatting in some far off country? There isn't a country far enough off to avoid US.

[JackRiddler]

170. Unfortunately "serious" is probably what he thinks he is.

We are violating propriety when we call things by their names.

[99th_Monkey]

9. Hmmm .. Well, let's see: Chile, Panama, Haiti, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, ...

Last edited Tue Sep 10, 2013, 01:35 PM - Edit history (1)

Did I miss anyone?

Yes, I'd say "serial killer of nations" fits rather well, sad to say.

[zeemike]

41. Yes you did but you were only dealing in recent history

It goes way back...Cuba, and most every country south of us...refer to General Smedly Butler for a more complete list.

[AlbertCat]

54. Chile, Panama, Haiti, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt....and Cuba...

If I'm not mistaken, all these nations still exist. None of these nations were "killed" by anyone.

[99th_Monkey]

85. Please see

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3638640

[AlbertCat]

121. Thats all very interesting...but...

... the metaphor was "serial killer". Y'know...KILLER....

[treestar]

61. Those nations are all still alive

Some of them have received a lot of aid from the US. And who on DU was claiming we didn't do enough for some of them in their hard times?

[99th_Monkey]

84. Their national sovereignty and autonomy was seriously fucked-with by the USA

and you know it. Mostly were ELECTED leaders who we deposed, but ones we
didn't like i.e. not US "allies" (wink-nod)

Why do you hate national autonomy & democracy?

[treestar]

108. Chile maybe but that was 40 years ago now

And they are all still sovereign.

Many a nation asks for assistance from the US. Some even demand it and say it's not enough. I recall the Libya uprising on this board, and it was amazing the way we were supposed to assure their freedom for them and weren't doing enough. Same with Egypt when it started up there. Obama was condemned for not saying anything and then when he said something, for not saying it fast enough. And now we find it's "interfering in their sovereignty." I call bad faith. Not really caring about the issue, just using to say Obama is wrong.

[99th_Monkey]

113. You can call it whatever you like

We can quibble about the nuances of why/how/when/for what purpose we
militarily bully other smaller nations; but the fact remains, we keep doing it.

I'm simply saying fuck that. Enough. No more. Not in my name.

We have no obligation -- nor have we any right -- to be the world's cop/judge/jury/executioner.

[DireStrike]

138. You're likely conflating groups

Some of us are consistently against intervention.

[DireStrike]

137. In the western hemisphere it is a better fit.

An amazing amount of disgusting things have been done to satisfy the Monroe Doctrine. It's probably gone beyond the bounds of what could be considered sensible, in terms of domination.

[OnyxCollie]

21. We assume that statesmen think and act in terms of interest defined as power,

We assume that statesmen think and act in terms of interest defined as
power, and the evidence of history bears that assumption out. That assumption
allows us to retrace and anticipate, as it were, the steps a statesman-
past, present, or future-has taken or will take on the political scene.
We look over his shoulder when he writes his dispatches; we listen in on
his conversation with other statesmen; we read and anticipate his very
thoughts. Thinking in terms of interest defined as power, we think as he
does, and as disinterested observers we understand his thoughts and actions
perhaps better than he, the actor on the political scene, does himself.

The concept of interest defined as power imposes intellectual discipline
upon the observer, infuses rational order into the subject matter of politics,
and thus makes the theoretical understanding of politics possible. On the
side of the actor, it provides for rational discipline in action and creates that
astounding continuity in foreign policy which makes American, British, or
Russian foreign policy appear as an intelligible, rational continuum, by and
large consistent within itself, regardless of the different motives, preferences,
and intellectual and moral qualities of successive statesmen. A realist theory
of international politics, then, will guard against two popular fallacies:
the concern with motives and the concern with ideological preferences.

Morgenthau, H. (1948). Politics among nations: The struggle for power and peace (p. 5). New York: Knopf

Power would have been the acquisition of objective monetary interests for Saudi Arabia, Israel, PNAC/FPI, Big Oil, Kerry, and the Three Amigos (McCain, Lieberman, & Graham.)

[frylock]

59. love it or leave it..

where have I heard that before?

[lumpy]

78. It applies

[frylock]

82. no, it fucking doesn't..

it's what fuckwad conservatives say when they have no argument.

[laundry_queen]

87. Shocking to see so many people use it here, isn't it? nt

[frylock]

88. no, not really..

you have lots of republicans bailing that sinking garbage scow. it's no shock that they would wind up here, spewing their nonsense.

[laundry_queen]

90. True enough. I guess I was thinking shocking in the context of the old DU. nt

[lumpy]

92. Love that 'picking flies out of the mayo', also.

You guys are cracking me up. What a stupid thing to get your dander up over. keep on talking.

[frylock]

98. i can never make sense of any of the crap you post..

what are you trying to say here?

[DireStrike]

135. Oh thank goodness.

I thought I missed something perhaps important. Guess not.

[treestar]

65. It's a reverse kind of America centrism

All that is wrong in the world they blame on the only place they know. As if there weren't worse people in the world, the rulers of Iran, North Korea, etc. In fact they sometimes sound the North Koreans (the US imperialist aggressor coming after them).

[DireStrike]

136. That's a bad conclusion.

Nothing in my statement precludes other nations from being worse.

[JackRiddler]

169. Can you name another country...

that's gone on an international rampage of bombing, invading and also waging covert war on so many other nations in the last 65 years? Absolutely not. The truth hurts, doesn't it? It's September 11th, 40 years since the U.S.-orchestrated coup d'etat put Pinochet in power in Chile.

[demwing]

178. So if I cant find another country as militaristic as the US

Then the US is a serial killer?

Are you fucking serious?

I'll tell you if the truth hurts when I hear the truth. So far......nothing...

[JackRiddler]

183. At the risk of sounding like...

those assholes who say stuff like "Go to Russia," "Go to Iran," etc.

Like most flag-waving Americans, clearly you could have stood a few tours of service... as a Vietnamese or Chilean or Salvadoran or Cuban or Iraqi civilian on the receiving end of the international serial killer's perpetual wars for peace.

Of course the truth can't hurt if you take the U.S. provincial view that of all nations on earth, only yours has shit that doesn't stink and bombs that don't murder.

"The greatest purveyor of violence on earth today is my government." Who said it? How convenient that he's dead, so that everyone can celebrate him. If he were alive today do you think he'd be saying anything different?

[demwing]

186. I'd love to play poker with you

You are lousy at guessing the cards in the other guy's hand, and when you go "All In" it's not based on the strength of your hand , but on some gambit to bluff the other guy into folding.

Yeah, I'd take you for your last dime.

Do you really live in a world where people either agree with you 100% , or disagree 100%?

Do you see no grey areas, no subtleties of thought, and no nuance?

[JackRiddler]

187. Yes, a game with an element of luck...

that's one you might win, given that you clearly have nothing to say on the subject at hand and only insults delivered from whatever bubble you're in.

(See, insults make sense only when they go together with any form of refutation. You have zero, zip, de nada to say about the present situation, therefore "you'd like to play poker with me." And even on that you have total destruction analogies as your fantasy scenario, but fancy yourself the sophisticated moderate.)

I'd like to play nothing with you, sir. I do not see game analogies here. So sorry.

The radical here is the one who wants to open the door to drop bombs from here on anyone. That's right, there is no gray area. Open and shut. The U.S. spent its bombing quotient long ago, there can be no legitimate U.S. military action other than in response to an actual attack. Especially not a unilateral bombing of anywhere by the Serial Killer of Nations.

You're such a realist! Go hang out with Kissinger, the murderer of literally millions, and complain about how all the moralists and radicals just don't share your sophistication about the situation in Syria.

[demwing]

188. I'm sorry that I didn't explain in greater detail

Last edited Thu Sep 12, 2013, 04:14 PM - Edit history (1)

I thought it would be an insult to your intelligence.

Clearly I erred, so let me correct myself...

I challenged your position that the US was a serial killer - I think it's a ridiculous comment. That doesn't make me a jingoist, or a nationalist, or uber-patriotic. I am of the opinion that the US too often makes policy decisions based on what's good for the MIC, not the general population. I'm critical of many of the US's policies, but try to stay realistic. Not every criminal is a murderer, and not every murderer is a serial killer, right?

Despite that logic, you still make comments about me in this thread that are inaccurate and unrealistic, based on faulty assumptions that you've made about my motives, and all because I've challenged you.

Therefore, I say you don't know how to read my cards. It's a fair, if imperfect analogy.

You also went straight for the throat in your response, holding little back (though it is possible that you were holding back. If so, I think you might have rage issues ). In my experience, people who get so angry--especially when they've only been slightly challenged--do so as a bluff, hoping that the other party backs off rather than staying in the conversation.

Therefore I say you go "All In" based on the weakness of your hand, not the strength. I may be wrong, but (again) it's a fair, if imperfect analogy.

In the end, you and I share opinions on Syria - we shouldn't be there. The difference is that you feel comfortable expressing that opinion with wildly exaggerated language, and I don't. You feel comfortable accusing people who disagree with your style and presentation of being in league with murderers.

I merely called you a bad poker player.

[JackRiddler]

189. You know nothing of me, sir.

All I see is you're the one making a boatload of assumptions about me and about what I might think of you, entirely because you're so provoked by the phrase, "serial killer of nations." You certainly are in deep denial of its reality. It must upset some idea of propriety on your part, even if you are duly anti-war and against the proposed Syria action. Because, you see, it takes no special anger on my part to utter that phrase. It's just obvious. Sorry that you can't deal with your own country's historical record.

Go tell it to the people massacred wholesale by CIA & USG and the hopes of independent national development dashed over and over since 1946, in Greece, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, Guatemala, Iran, Chile, the six Condor nations repeatedly, Central America again in the 1980s, Iraq of course in so many episodes since the 1960s and the original support for the faction that birthed the Saddam dictatorship, and so many other nations. This is a serial killer at work. Specifically, of nations: especially of those that endeavor development independently of the courses set by the world order that the U.S. national security state has so stubbornly served to defend.

[demwing]

190. I know as much about you as you know of me

so before you get all butt-hurt about my assumptions, tend to your own...

Like most flag-waving Americans

I'm not a flag waving American

clearly you could have stood a few tours of service... as a Vietnamese or Chilean or Salvadoran or Cuban or Iraqi civilian on the receiving end of the international serial killer's perpetual wars for peace.

So, because I disagreed with you, I should be dead? Nice

of all nations on earth, only yours has shit that doesn't stink and bombs that don't murder.

I see, a mere disagreement with your choice of words means I've signed off on believing whatever imaginary things you want to pretend that I believe. You are either truly deluding yourself, or are just a world class troll, trying to stir up shit.

Your hate of the US completely kills your ability to be rational. Yell all you want, beat your drum as loud as you can, and point your fingers at everyone that disagrees. Your world view is narrow, hateful, and arrogant. Good luck with that...

[JackRiddler]

191. Labeling strategies.

Confronted with undeniable reality - the US government is the serial killer of nations - it's all about putting the hate label on me. Boring.

[jwirr]

8. Correct. Even WWII was not to help the Jews in concentration camps. Many of them died long before

we stepped in. There was an economic reason behind even that war. The question was one of who is going to become the economic leader in the world. The war was later justified even more by the revelation of the camps and what an ass Hitler really was.

[Berlin Expat]

14. WWII was

justified because it was glaringly obvious to anyone that Hitler had every intention of conquering Eastern Europe, exterminating its population as untermenschen and "settling accounts" with France for WWI.

It's all spelled out chapter and verse in Mein Kampf. Never was anyone more explicit in what they intended to do if they achieved power. As my late father once cynically put it, "Hitler was the only politician who ever kept his campaign promises."

[jwirr]

18. Yes. But few Americans have ever read Mein Kampf. So we had to think there were other reasons we

went to war.

[Berlin Expat]

24. Sad, but

true. Very few Americans have read Mein Kampf, and even worse, many of those who have think it's just jim-dandy.

As far as I'm concerned, it should be required reading in a world history class, ideally at the High School level.

[Celefin]

37. Heh... kudos if you can actually stand to read 'Mein Kampf'

It's so awfully, awfully badly written as to make no sense whatsoever over large parts. It's also chock full of unintended humor - in the sense the writing is so poor and deranged you simply have to laugh. If you need any proof that Hitler wasn't exactly a genius or just sane for that matter, go ahead and read it. Really, don't force poor student through this epic literary fail. A correct summary would suffice, I'd say.

'Mein Kampf': the most undeservedly famous book ever... revered as something almost mythical by a lot of people (funnily enough a lot of them neonazis... who've never read it).

[Berlin Expat]

76. There's a story, somewhat apocryphal,

that Hermann Göring, who - unlike Hitler - was actually an educated man, used to privately refer to the book as "Mein Krampf" or 'My Fit', because the book is damned near unreadable. It jumps all over the place, from subject to subject, and reveals its author for all the world to see; a poorly-educated, deluded neurotic with a grossly distorted understanding of history and a half-baked ideology who presumed he was being guided by 'Providence' to be the savior of the German people.

Simply put, a psychopath with a messianic complex.

That being said, no one can accuse the man of not pursuing his goals, which he laid out quite explicitly, no matter how horrific and grotesque the consequences - not only for the world, but for Germany itself.

[Celefin]

107. Yep, I've heard of that one ;)

And it's very believable; Goering was, as opposed to his Fuehrer, a very intelligent man and cold thinker.

The thing with 'Mein Krampf' is that it only makes real sense in hindsight. It still remains a mystery how this sad person was able to throw Europe into darkness presumably all on his own... and one would certainly not have been able to predict the outcome by reading this book.

Saw a great piece of cabaret once: a turkish guy simply reading from 'Mein Kampf' and commenting on it. Just the real thing, annotated so to speak with a few impersonations thrown in. Toe-curlingly hilarious.

[King_Klonopin]

154. Most undeserved famous book...

Atlas Shrugged. Vomit on paper.

[lumpy]

89. It may be the most important book written in modern history. Shows what sort of insanity

can thrive in this world.

[Ghost Dog]

185. Yeah, that's what I thought... Witness what's happening to USA right now...

(But then, I read it in a 1940s Castillian Spanish translation. Mi Lucha).

[JackRiddler]

167. Why are you propagating a myth?

World War II was not started by the United States (for a change). It was started by Germany and Japan, who then attacked and declared war on the United States, forcing it into the hostilities. So in what way was it justified? The U.S. did not enter WWII except in self-defense after attack. The U.S. did not enter WWII to save anyone, or to stop Hitler, so at best you're saying this would have been justified in some alternate reality wherein the U.S. was not attacked first.

[Larry Ogg]

36. And WWII were happen today...

Who would all our corporately owned, bought and paid for Democrat and Republican puppets support?

And to what extent would all the Right Wing Authoritarian Idol Worshipers in both parties goto in order to deny the truth, remain willfully ignorant, and good little Eichmanns.

[MisterP]

42. Sen. Bilbo and Jon Voight's uncle argued that we were fighting on the wrong side of WWII

http://www.conelrad.com/books/flyleaf.php?id=368_0_1_0_M
the Red Scare was to divert from the fact that they weren't being "good Murkans" at all a few years before

[lumpy]

93. As well as our widely hailed pilot hero, Lindbergh.

[Larry Ogg]

103. Prescott Bush was also a big supporter of Hitler.

But then, there were lots of rich Nazis who wrapped themselves in the American flag.

To bad the problem is worse today then ever before.

[JackRiddler]

172. Who did the corporations support in the 1930s?

Ford, IBM, Standard Oil... they supported the rise of Hitler and kept doing business with the Nazis even during the war.

[lumpy]

86. Th US was on the heels of a depression, there were isolationists running around with smoking

hairlines and politicians that didn't give a damn about Hitler, the Jews or anyone else, some people couldn't see the hand writing on the wall. I was a kid during those times and I knew what was going on in Europe, there was plenty of literature re. Hitler floating around, there was even discussion about it in school. People knew, but many were struggling financially, and that was a priority. It took Pearl Harbor to wake people up to the fact that Hitler/Japan might be a threat to our lives. Believe me the response by the American people instantly went into motion and everyone put their shoulders into doing something about a very real threat to this nation.

[grahamhgreen]

11. Kick

[AnotherMcIntosh]

17. Your friend Jenna Pope has it exactly right.

In this country, there are politicians who won't even allow peaceful protestors to speak.

[Iliyah]

22. Like WI

Oh by the way, Walker is running for President.

[JackRiddler]

171. Jenna Pope = #BatmanWI

[Donald Ian Rankin]

20. I think it would be more accurate to say that anyone who doesn't think that is delusional.

It's very comforting to think that America is the Great Satan, but it's also very silly.

American military intervention in other countries has usually been misguided, but it's generally been motivated by ideology, not self-interest.

[HangOnKids]

26. Oh dear does somebody have to tell you to follow the money?

Unless you think that ideology is money.

[NealK]

35. +1 n/t

[OnyxCollie]

31. Max Weber disagrees that military action is determined by ideology, not self-interest.

What is decisive is that in socialism, too, the individual will under these conditions {in which individuals have some capacity to make economically relevant decisions} ask first whether to him, personally, the rations allotted and the work assigned, as compared with other possibilities, appear to conform with his own interests.... {It} would be the interests of the individual, possibly organized in terms of the similar interests of many individuals as opposed to those of others, which would underlie all action. The structure of interests and the relevant situation would be different {from a market economy}, and there would be other means of pursuing interests, but this fundamental factor would remain just as relevant as before. It is of course true that economic action which is oriented on purely ideological grounds to the interests of others does exist. But it is even more certain that the mass of men do not act in this way and that it is an induction from experience that they cannot do so and never will. (P. 203, italics added)

[truedelphi]

148. And how many damn wars have you fought in, there, soldier?

Yes, the "humanitarian" ideology is shoved down our throats until we accept a a war. But once that war is in place, war profits are the main reason for us being there. And also the politicians' self interest.

Anyway, the GI's in the jungles of Vietnam got handed mine detectors that detected metal mines, even though the Viet Cong used plastic explosives in their mines. The soldiers in Iraq had HumVees that remained unprotected against IED explosions. The entire strategy, if you can use the word for the pathetic situation, consisted of our service people driving up and down extremely dangerous roads in Iraq until some snipers or IED's took them out. That was our entire strategy. Period.

We have not won any wars since the Summer of 1945. And why is that?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

152. Ever heard of Kosovo? N.T.

[HangOnKids]

29. Dilusional?

Really? Love the personified touch. Keep going your posts are a hoot. I have to ask ,why the lay off in posting for so many years?

[gtar100]

28. Highly K&R That was well stated.

I want to be part of a country with a strong military. But this US Military we have today is abusive of its powers and completely off track with its purpose of defending the US. That it says it's here to defend our freedom is an absolute joke. They, with their insatiable appetite, are a big reason for the terrible decline of the US and the rising poverty here. That's no defender. That is a parasite.

[starroute]

30. Jenna Pope did great work photographing the Turkish protests

She was also arrested last month or singing in the Wisconsin Capitol. On that basis alone, I think that she says is worth paying attention to.

http://jennapope.com/2013/06/27/the-turkish-uprising-first-hand-experiences-from-an-american-photographer/

[JackRiddler]

193. We could use some of that Turkish spirit here!

[DirkGently]

33. Yes. Our Benefit of the Doubt card was pulled long ago.

Iraq, Gitmo, water-boarding weren't even "secret" like our adventures in South America. Now we're drone-bombing civilians and children to death on a regular basis, with not so much as a "by-your-leave."

I hope the public / Congress slap-down of this latest missile-waving interventionist fantasy marks a watershed for the country, in which no one will reflexively back another call for America to wade in where it is unwanted and un-needed, and the ususal disingenuous motivations are so clearly present.

[NealK]

38. K&R

[Egalitarian Thug]

39. K&R For a bit of truth.

You can always tell the quality of a post by the people it pisses off.

Good for you.
& R

[lumpy]

96. Like a book called Mein Kampt, you can tell the quality of a book by the people who it pisses off.

[Egalitarian Thug]

106. Sooo... Jenna Pope is a Nazi?

Maybe she's a vegetarian dog lover?

[truedelphi]

149. Do we have a name for that phenomenon yet?

You know the one - where someone is pissed off about something or someone so immediately Hitler gets invoked.

[SammyWinstonJack]

45. rec!

[caledesi]

50. Totally agree! nt

[Jefferson23]

52. Suppose to be, to serve man (mankind). Not serve him up. n/t

[treestar]

56. Assad is the one helping people then?

Bullshit. These cynical morons are just attention seekers. The conspiracy nut crap is getting off the charts. So Assad should get away with using chemical weapons on people? That's helping people?

Yes we do help people. Quit with the bullshit. We do have our own interest in chemical weapons not being used, but we do not do this out of evil intent.

Why doesn't this idiot condemn Putin then, for trying so hard to keep an oil monopoly in Europe and allowing Assad to remain there, propped up, to gas his people, just so a pipeline won't be built. Your friend is an ignorant and condescending blowhard who knows nothing of the world beyond US borders. That's America-centrism of the most ignorant kind.

This country does help its people. It may not have single payer, but it has medicaid and medicare. It has all sorts of programs to help the poor, in spite of years of Republican domination. Look at all the aid for the disaster victims. What an ungrateful person.

[lumpy]

95. Rather frustrating isn't it. Hard to figure out just what is causing this sort of cynicism.

It is sick, that disillusioned people can so easily find satisfaction in blaming others for that disillusionment.

[Fumesucker]

156. Well, the US left Iraq in smoking ruins and is on the way to leaving Afghanistan the same way

I could run down the list of stuff the US has done, particularly in the Middle East that would lead to cynicism but I don't have all night.

When I first met my Iranian brother in law twenty five years ago he was actually shocked to find an American who knew of the overthrow of the democratically elected Mossadegh government of Iran by the CIA in 1953, I was the first American he had ever met who knew of the history there.

[sufrommich]

66. "serial killer of nations"

This is why the left is so popular and powerful in this country. Just kidding,tone deaf as usual.

[FiveGoodMen]

145. Covering up the truth would be SO much hipper than telling it

We'll NEVER get to sit with the cool kids now!

[malaise]

81. +1,000

Rec

[lumpy]

97. Sick

[U4ikLefty]

182. projecting

[Snake Plissken]

114. We go war because there is nothing else on TV to watch

The two senseless war after 9/11 could have been avoided if the media wasn't too busy marketing the wars to do their job and report the facts.

I don't know how they screwed this one up and let the true slip out.

[florida08]

115. couldn't agree more

Flag waving and jets flying over is fun but it's just not the truth. If anyone doubts it all they have to do is watch "Confessions of an economic hit man" by John Perkins. He has spent years going around to the countries he brought chaos to trying to make amends and apologizing. Or read about Smedley Butler "War is a racket". Or you can just read this:

http://michiganjournal.org/2013/09/10/the-problem-a-syrians-perspective/

or you can read about the danger the Syrian Christians are in.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/11/world/middleeast/assault-on-christian-town-complicates-crisis-in-syria.html?_r=1&

Enjoyed your friends post. Tell her there are many that know what's going on and feel the same way. People are waking up

[BB1]

117. Great book by John Perkins.

Read it and lend it out to anyone who's interested. On that same note, give Gold Warriors a try. It makes some sense about the cramped relationship between USA and Japan. Upthread people are calling Japan the agressors (which they were, in large parts of South East Asia), but there was definately a colloboration with the US.

[florida08]

120. thanks..Is this it?

http://www.amazon.com/Gold-Warriors-Americas-Recovery-Yamashitas/dp/1844675319/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1378858279&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=Gold+Warriorsw

Will see if I can download

[BB1]

159. Yes, that's it.

Have fun reading. There's some very interesting stuff in there.

[Enthusiast]

118. The US government doesn't give a flying fuck about it's own people,

let alone the people of the rest of the world. Profit for the corporations, the 1% and the MIC are the primary concerns.

[truedelphi]

155. Bernie Sanders agrees:

"The president reiterated the points he has been making in recent weeks."

"The dangers of the spread of chemical weapons, I think that's something that everybody in the room agrees with. The debate comes down to whether or not, long-term, we feel that getting involved in a Syrian civil war, which is bloody and complicated, the view that I expressed is that, one of the reasons there is so much opposition to this war -- and in the state of Vermont, 95 percent of the calls and e-mails I'm getting are in opposition -- that the American people are very, very angry at the Congress and the White House for not focusing on the collapse of the middle class, high unemployment, low wages and income and wealth inequality. So the American people are saying, 'Yeah, it's terrible what's happening in Syria, and yeah, the international community is going to have to address it, but we elect you people to make sure we have a decent standard of living and yet we're falling further and further behind. Please pay attention to the needs of the American people.' "

[Enthusiast]

157. I love Bernie.

We think alike.

[idwiyo]

158. K&R

[beerandjesus]

160. Yes! I thought invoking FDR was pretty rich....

If Obama had the New Deal under his belt, he'd have a lot more credibility on this business about helping people overseas.

[Ghost Dog]

162. Thanks Jenna, Jack.

Truth.

[snappyturtle]

163. So much is going through my mind after reading the replies I

almost forgot the subject of the OP. K&R