If the President planned this all along, then it was a huge diplomatic betrayal of our closest ally

[markpkessinger]

Think about it. The President enlisted the support of David Cameron for missile strikes. Then he stood by while Cameron went way out on a limb for him, only to suffer a serious political hit when he was roundly defeated in Parliament, the President all the while standing by knowing he was intending to leave Cameron twisting in the wind. If that were actually the case, it would represent a truly unprecedented diplomatic betrayal. And in that event, I think Cameron would be contemplating missile strikes against Washington about now! Seriously, though, do you really think any U.S. President would do such a thing?

So, still want to stand by the theory that it was the President's plan all along?

(NOTE: Credit where credit is due, this angle was brought to my attention by DU member DisgustipatedinCA)

[sendero]

1. Anyone watching these events unfold...

... in real time knows this was not at all planned. In fact, Kerry et al seemed downright disappointed when his off the cuff offer was accepted.

Now, the whole game is to call their bluff and convince everyone that the offer is just a stalling tactic. It might well be, but they have to play ball now.

[Kolesar]

2. "I think Cameron would be contemplat(ing) missile strikes against Washington about now! "

Seriously?

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3642056

[markpkessinger]

4. No, of course I wasn't being serious wtih that remark . . .

. . . that's why I followed it immediately with the words, "Seriously, though . . . ". (And it is more than a tad disingenuous of you to imply that I was being serious with it.) My point is that Cameron would be rightfully furious with Obama. And I don't think Obama is so reckless as to do such a thing to our closest ally. Do you?

[Kolesar]

11. We're seeing the "stamping of the feet"

Tensions have calmed and the media is swooning over President Obama this morning and you guys have to construct a backward looking narrative to justify your continued hatred of the President. Sad

[Katashi_itto]

18. Bwhahaha...

yes yes..it was all planned.

[chervilant]

19. hmm...

I'm seeing a lot of constructing "a backward looking narrative" from both critics of this administration, and those who unreservedly support Obama. I am also noting an increase in derisive, condescending posts. I have to wonder why some DUers feel they have to resort to thinly veiled personal attacks to make their point.

[disidoro01]

22. This was not planned

It has calmed tensions but it's the height of stupidity to think that Obama planned to throw Cameron under the bus while elevating Putin to Peaceful Statesman. Oh, that's right, up is down in the new DU and critical thinking gets you sent to the Jury.
I'm glad we don't have missiles flying into Syria but I don't appreciate garbage you are throwing out.

[Hobo]

26. haters gonna hate......eom

Hobo

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. "the media is swooning over President Obama this morning"? Really?

Wow - most reaction outside the USA seems to be that he's muddled through, and so far looks a bit driven by events and others, rather than being anything to 'swoon' over.

[Recursion]

3. Obama stabbing Cameron in the back ups my approval, personally

[markpkessinger]

5. It isn't about liking Cameron or not . . .

. . . I don't care for the guy either. But do you really think Obama would do such a thing to the head of government of the U.S.'s closest ally? Seriously?

[Recursion]

9. Do I personally? Yes.

He's called a naif by everyone except those he has run for office against.

[Scootaloo]

6. It certainly wasn't planned

Syria and Russia caught the US by surprise. A pleasant surprise to be sure, but it's very clear from John Kerry's own words that he simply never imagined it would be possible. Once it became possible, the administration went with it because, well, they're sane people.

Even so, Kerry's behavior through this crisis has left his reputation permanently damaged with me. While he was talking about "Munich moments" (another clue this wasn't planned - you don't go to your European applies and accuse them of appeasing a new Hitler unless you have nothing else) all I could think about was "anthrax at the UN moment." The guy is a total farce now.

[Kolesar]

13. "This morning I'm waving my chin back and forth extra vigorously and this time it's about Kerry"

Two years of this stuff, Scootaloo? You must find it stimulating because you keep coming back.

[Scootaloo]

15. The depth of your insight is astounding

You should start your own psychic hotline

[Scootaloo]

20. Maybe you couldmake a point I could address...?

I mean, I assume that you have one, right? If not, my apologies, but really.

[pampango]

29. What wasn't planned? Obama and Putin discussed the plan at the G20. One of them must

have had reservations or it would have been announced at the time.

If it were Putin's idea which Obama had reservations about, then Kerry really stuck his foot in his mouth when he mentioned the idea (a Russian proposal that his boss had, hypothetically, rejected). Russia's foreign minister, Lavrov, should have been giving the idea publicity to put pressure on the US.

If, OTOH, the plan for international control came from Obama and Putin at least initially had reservations, Kerry might have been prodding the Russians by mentioning it (un)intentionally. (If State then walks it back, does that make it easier for Putin to accept it without appearing to be pushed?) At least in this scenario Kerry was bringing up an American proposal, not a Russian one.

Perhaps Kerry's remarks were not planned. If they were not, the international control plan would have come up in some other manner since both the US and Russia had come to support it. If Lavrov had brought it up rather than Kerry, there would have been just as much pressure on Obama to accept the peaceful negotiation path rather than pushing for congressional authorization to strike Syria (which he was not likely to get anyway).

[FarCenter]

32. I think that Kerry was not involved in the Obama and Putin discussions or knew of them before hand

Likely, Obama later told Kerry about them, and that no agreement had been reached in St. Petersburg.

The memory of what Obama had told his was rattling around in Kerry's head, and while his mouth was open it just flew out.

[Scootaloo]

33. The unplanned part was where Assad went "Yeah, okay, let's do that."

John Kerry, our Secretary of state, bumped the idea, then more or less erased it by declaring the notion that Assad would agree to such a thing "impossible." Then there was the brief scramble in the State Department after Assad said okay, first Kerry's statement was walked back by a spokesperson, then it was un-walked-back (I'm sure there's a term for that, but I just got off a 12-hour shift )

That wasn't a double-blind gamble at the 11-dimensional chessboard played at by the meat version of Deep Blue. it was Assad unexpectedly taking an opportunity he felt was presented, and the US and Russia being caught by surprise by that, since I'm sure Moscow expected Assad to be extremely stubborn about this as well. You have to understand that the US president is not the only person in this picture who has a brain and agency of his own. Pretending he is just leads down a road of Republican-styled ignorance about the world around us.

Besides, if this was all planned out, we'd also have to believe that the president not only let John Kerry choke on a rope for a week, 'cause DAMN that man made a fool of himself... "Munich Moment," fuck you - but also spent a lot of his own political capital on drumming for strikes as well. That's the sort of thing you don't do unless you mean it. And no, I don't think obama would let anyone, much less John Kerry, dangle like that.

Obama does deserve credit for hitting the pause button (Well, sorta... As much of a pause button US presidents ever use on an upcoming war) when this came up. when his predecessor was presented the same opportunity, the moron went ahead to get his war on.

[4bucksagallon]

7. You don't think Cameron knew he would not get the support he needed

in Parliament? ......."this angle was brought to my attention by DU member DisgustipatedinCA)" Of course it was LOL, I never would have guessed that. Well okay, yeah I would have guessed, this member, or the handful of others bent on undermining our President.

[markpkessinger]

8. I think Cameron seriously misjudged the level of opposition he would receive n/t

[4bucksagallon]

12. I don't think so.

I bet he knew what the outcome would be, and the same with our President. The Brits are every bit as war weary as the USA is.

[muriel_volestrangler]

31. No, he didn't know what the outcome would be

Labour didn't say they'd vote against the main motion until quite late. Even with that it was a very close vote - he lost 285-272, with quite a few MPs not voting (and 2 government ministers who were working and couldn't hear the division bell, when they thought they would be able to, so missed the vote). And no PM would 'know what the outcome would be' and call a vote to be defeated. It hurt him. And Obama wouldn't have called for the Congressional vote if he 'knew' he would be defeated. Again, it hurts him.

[sibelian]

25. Hi. I'm a UK resident.

I have something I'd just like to flag up to you - the orifice from which you are speaking is not ordinary intended for that use.

[Democracyinkind]

10. I think the concept of "master plan" says much about the political maturity of those promoting it.

It's the comic book version of politics, where everything is a gigantic conspiracy. I kind of enjoy the BOG's excursion to the land of CT's considering their history of using the " conspiracy" label. A nice fantasy, if it weren't so dangerous.

[Kolesar]

14. "master plan", "CT's" -- your vague references make your post indecipherable...eom

[Nuclear Unicorn]

17. I understood him easily enough.

[Democracyinkind]

21. To some, not to others.

I honestly don't think I can make myself any clearer; I've read the term "master plan" in almost any POTUS-related Syria thread, and well, you can't log on to DU without being hit with "CT". I don't think of my post as cryptic or indecipherable. But thanks for the input.

[blm]

23. Baloney - Cameron probably expected to win. Obama couldn't control that

outcome, and it wouldn't matter one way or another to the overall diplomacy going on behind the scenes. No doubt that Cameron is relieved that the diplomacy moves appear to be succeeding.

I think you're reaching to find something evil where no evil exists, just because you've personally invested yourself in attacking Obama over this.

[mythology]

24. Except you're assuming that there were no discussions about alternative possibilities

to military strikes and that both the British and the Obama administration don't understand that sometimes the threat of violence is enough to deter violence. Bullies like Assad don't back down from killing their own people, but he's not exactly going around trying to invade other countries because he understands it would put him at risk. Now with the threat of U.S. involvement, he's talking about talking further steps to protect himself.

Given that these discussions with Russia had been going on for a while, I would assume that we had briefed the British because as you said, they are one of our closest allies. Just because others can't think of using a multi-pronged approach, doesn't mean that the Obama administration couldn't.

[markpkessinger]

27. Being Prime Minister is not like being President

He or she doesn't have a fixed term. He or she serves as long as (a) the public continues to have faith in the ruling party, and (b) the ruling party continues to have faith in his or her leadership. I seriously doubt Cameron would have willingly exposed himself to the kind of political damage he suffered, merely to prop up President Obama's negotiating strategy. Talk about magical thinking!

[Oilwellian]

28. Well, damn

Now you've gone and thrown a monkey wrench into their beautiful little fantasy. Some people see things for what they are. Others see them for what they wish them to be, and I suspect the BOG'ers are very relieved that Obama chose a more diplomatic approach. If it were his plan all along to work with Putin and disarm Syria of their chemical weapons, why didn't he begin with that premise? Why the absurdity of our threat to use humanitarian missiles and terrifying the entire world with visions of our sparking WWIII? This convoluted plan that has played out before our very eyes, has been a monumental disaster, although I have to admit, witnessing the dense Skull & Bones man sabotage himself was quite entertaining. But that laughter is fleeting because realistically, this isn't over by a long shot. I'm afraid the neocons will have their war one way or another. This is just a minor glitch and reprieve.