Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
Now It Looks Like The White House May Have Overestimated Syrian Gas Deaths
http://www.businessinsider.com/white-house-may-have-overestimated-syrian-gas-deaths-2013-9
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - One of the most precise and dramatic details cited by theObama administration as proof that Syrian forces used chemical weapons in an August 21 attack was the death toll, which an official U.S. government assessment put at 1,429 people, including 426 children.
The number, first released by the White House on August 30, was underscored by Secretary of State John Kerry in a fiery indictment of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, describing videos of what he said were victims of the attack, which Syria denies.
"Instead of being tucked safely in their beds at home, we saw rows of children lying side by side sprawled on a hospital floor, all of them dead from Assad's gas and surrounded by parents and grandparents who had suffered the same fate. The United States Government now knows that at least 1,429 Syrians were killed in this attack, including at least 426 children," he said.
Some U.S. congressional sources are now casting doubt on those figures.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/white-house-may-have-overestimated-syrian-gas-deaths-2013-9#ixzz2eltLaVr7
53 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
= new reply since forum marked as read
Never bloody mind Kerry's endorsement of fake 'expert' Elizabeth O’Bagy.
Anyone with even 2 functioning braincells left could smell the stench of bullshit. Number of dead vs number of survivors to start with.
Attempts to spin Médecins Sans Frontières statements. The precise bloody numbers, down to the last child. Attempts to stop inspection. Etc., etc., etc.
Bloody despicable warmongering arseholes even had enough nerve to trawl YouTube for videos of dead kids, FFS
:large
to disperse the gas or by the cover up. The Syrians should get a pass on the numbers then. 
that the article is more ridiculous speculation.
One of the congressional sources said that administration officials in closed door briefings said they could not rule out that some victims included in the U.S. death toll were killed either by conventional explosive parts of rockets which carried poison gas or in the artillery barrage the United States says followed the gas attack.
A second source, who is sympathetic to White House policy, said caveats administration officials attached to the 1,429 death total were of sufficient magnitude to cause the source to avoid citing the figure.
A third source said that administration officials confronted pointed questions from members of Congress about the accuracy of the numbers and acknowledged that they "couldn't be sure" about the cause of death for some people counted as victims of chemical poisoning.
An administration official familiar with the briefings denied that there had been any doubts as to how the 1,429 bodies were counted; a second official asserted that Capitol Hill officials had heard what they wanted to hear because so many legislators were opposed to Obama's plan.
A second source, who is sympathetic to White House policy, said caveats administration officials attached to the 1,429 death total were of sufficient magnitude to cause the source to avoid citing the figure.
A third source said that administration officials confronted pointed questions from members of Congress about the accuracy of the numbers and acknowledged that they "couldn't be sure" about the cause of death for some people counted as victims of chemical poisoning.
An administration official familiar with the briefings denied that there had been any doubts as to how the 1,429 bodies were counted; a second official asserted that Capitol Hill officials had heard what they wanted to hear because so many legislators were opposed to Obama's plan.
You get the sense that people think there is a difference if only 500 people, not 1,500 were killed. When the following article was used to question the numbers, people ignored this part:
The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, generally regarded as one of the most reliable sources of information on casualty figures in Syria, says it has confirmed 502 deaths, including 80 children and 137 women. Rami Abdul-Rahman, a Syrian expatriate who runs the organization from his home in Britain, said he was shocked by the White House's count.
<...>
"The U.S. took this high number from one part of the Syrian opposition that is supported by the U.S. government," Abdul-Rahman said. "We don't trust them."
<...>
Syria's political and military opposition is severely fragmented. The U.S. figure more closely matches reports by pro-opposition organizations such as the Local Coordination Committees and the United Revolutionary Medical Office in eastern Ghouta, a Damascus suburb hit by the alleged chemical attack.
The latter group said it had documented at least 1,302 deaths, about two-thirds of which were women and children. That figure was cited by the U.S.-based Syrian Support Group, which has a federal license to funnel aid to Syrian rebels.
http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-syria-casualties-20130904,0,681916.story
<...>
"The U.S. took this high number from one part of the Syrian opposition that is supported by the U.S. government," Abdul-Rahman said. "We don't trust them."
<...>
Syria's political and military opposition is severely fragmented. The U.S. figure more closely matches reports by pro-opposition organizations such as the Local Coordination Committees and the United Revolutionary Medical Office in eastern Ghouta, a Damascus suburb hit by the alleged chemical attack.
The latter group said it had documented at least 1,302 deaths, about two-thirds of which were women and children. That figure was cited by the U.S.-based Syrian Support Group, which has a federal license to funnel aid to Syrian rebels.
http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-syria-casualties-20130904,0,681916.story
The opposition is fragmented, and there is no doubt a power struggle.
1. The Unified Medical Revolutionary Office of Eastern Ghouta reported that 1,302 were killed in the attack, about 70 percent of whom were women and children, al-Baik said.
At least 9,838 others were wounded, he said.
2. In a Saturday report, the Foundation for Defence of Syrian Human Rights claimed the regime used chemical weapons 28 times between July 13th and August 21st. There were 23 incidents in and around Damascus, most recently the attack in Eastern and Western Ghouta, which killed a total of 1,845 and injured 9,924, it said.
At least 9,838 others were wounded, he said.
2. In a Saturday report, the Foundation for Defence of Syrian Human Rights claimed the regime used chemical weapons 28 times between July 13th and August 21st. There were 23 incidents in and around Damascus, most recently the attack in Eastern and Western Ghouta, which killed a total of 1,845 and injured 9,924, it said.
http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2013/08/28/feature-04 (h/t KittyWampus)
Clearly, Kerry didn't pull the numbers out of thin air. Other groups have reported similar casualties. Even if one goes with the number reported by the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a group aligned with the rebels that accuses the government of the attacks, it is still a deadly chemical attack launched by Assad.
Background on SOHR.
Syrian Observatory for Human Rights
The UK based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) is an information office opposed to the Government of Syria. There was conflict between Rami Abdulrahman,[1] a Syrian expatriate, and Mousab Azzawi about who rightfully ran the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.[2][3] Abdulrahman's UK based SOHR has been cited by virtually every western news outlet since the beginning of the uprising.[1][3]
The UK based SOHR is run out of a two-bedroom terraced home in Coventry, UK, by one person, Rami Abdulrahman (or Rami Abdul Rahman, or Rami Abdelrahman),[4] a Syrian Sunni Muslim who also runs a clothes shop. After three spells in prison in Syria, Abdulrahman came to Britain in 2000 fearing a longer, fourth jail term.[1]
In a December 2011 interview with Reuters, Abdulrahman said the observatory has a network of 200 people and that six of his sources had been killed. Abdulrahman reports on events in the Syrian uprising, including the deaths of civilians, rebels and army defectors (which he calls "martyrs"
[5] and government soldiers.[6] SOHR's methodology for counting civilian victims has been questioned,[7] as the organisation includes opposition combatants among the number of civilian casualties, as long as these are not former members of the military.[8]
<...>
SOHR has been accused of selective reporting, covering only violent acts of the government forces against the opposition for the first two years of its existence. Although critics concede that its newsgathering has become less partial, the perception is it "continues to defend Islamic extremists to avoid losing support among rebel forces".[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Observatory_for_Human_Rights
The UK based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) is an information office opposed to the Government of Syria. There was conflict between Rami Abdulrahman,[1] a Syrian expatriate, and Mousab Azzawi about who rightfully ran the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.[2][3] Abdulrahman's UK based SOHR has been cited by virtually every western news outlet since the beginning of the uprising.[1][3]
The UK based SOHR is run out of a two-bedroom terraced home in Coventry, UK, by one person, Rami Abdulrahman (or Rami Abdul Rahman, or Rami Abdelrahman),[4] a Syrian Sunni Muslim who also runs a clothes shop. After three spells in prison in Syria, Abdulrahman came to Britain in 2000 fearing a longer, fourth jail term.[1]
In a December 2011 interview with Reuters, Abdulrahman said the observatory has a network of 200 people and that six of his sources had been killed. Abdulrahman reports on events in the Syrian uprising, including the deaths of civilians, rebels and army defectors (which he calls "martyrs"
[5] and government soldiers.[6] SOHR's methodology for counting civilian victims has been questioned,[7] as the organisation includes opposition combatants among the number of civilian casualties, as long as these are not former members of the military.[8]
<...>
SOHR has been accused of selective reporting, covering only violent acts of the government forces against the opposition for the first two years of its existence. Although critics concede that its newsgathering has become less partial, the perception is it "continues to defend Islamic extremists to avoid losing support among rebel forces".[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Observatory_for_Human_Rights
The LCCS:
Local Coordination Committees of Syria
The Local Coordination Committees of Syria (Arabic: لجان التنسيق المحلية في سوريا: LCCSyria[3] or LCCs[4]) consist of a network of local groups that organise and report on protests as part of the Syrian uprising.[2][5] In June 2011, the network was described by The New York Times as beginning to "emerge as a pivotal force" in Syria.[1] As of August 2011, the network supported civil disobedience and opposed local armed resistance and international military intervention as methods of opposing the Syrian government.[6]
<...>
LCCSyria is financed by donations from individual supporters.[7] This is further facilitated by the "Adopt a Revolution" initiative.[8] Furthermore the Office for Syrian Opposition Support, which itself was founded by the United States Department of State and Foreign and Commonwealth Office[9] and is funded by the Friends of Syria Group, provides "material support" and "training assistance" to the LCCs.[10]
Human rights journalism
Rami Nakhle, who helps LCCSyria from exile in Lebanon, said that media activities documenting protests were the network's first main activity. The Syrian human rights lawyer Razan Zaitouneh, winner of the 2011 Sakharov Prize[11] and the 2011 Anna Politkovskaya Award,[2] has documented human rights in Syria for the network.[2] The network's text and photographic reports of injuries and deaths of protestors have been used by CNN,[5] Al Jazeera English,[12] The Guardian[13] and The Washington Post.[14][15] The network publishes reports on its own website and on Facebook.[4]
On 1 February 2012, LCCSyria criticised the international and Arab community as having been "unable to take any decision that contributes to stopping the cycle of violence in Syria". It estimated the number of deaths in the civil war is more than 100,000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Coordination_Committees_of_Syria
The Local Coordination Committees of Syria (Arabic: لجان التنسيق المحلية في سوريا: LCCSyria[3] or LCCs[4]) consist of a network of local groups that organise and report on protests as part of the Syrian uprising.[2][5] In June 2011, the network was described by The New York Times as beginning to "emerge as a pivotal force" in Syria.[1] As of August 2011, the network supported civil disobedience and opposed local armed resistance and international military intervention as methods of opposing the Syrian government.[6]
<...>
LCCSyria is financed by donations from individual supporters.[7] This is further facilitated by the "Adopt a Revolution" initiative.[8] Furthermore the Office for Syrian Opposition Support, which itself was founded by the United States Department of State and Foreign and Commonwealth Office[9] and is funded by the Friends of Syria Group, provides "material support" and "training assistance" to the LCCs.[10]
Human rights journalism
Rami Nakhle, who helps LCCSyria from exile in Lebanon, said that media activities documenting protests were the network's first main activity. The Syrian human rights lawyer Razan Zaitouneh, winner of the 2011 Sakharov Prize[11] and the 2011 Anna Politkovskaya Award,[2] has documented human rights in Syria for the network.[2] The network's text and photographic reports of injuries and deaths of protestors have been used by CNN,[5] Al Jazeera English,[12] The Guardian[13] and The Washington Post.[14][15] The network publishes reports on its own website and on Facebook.[4]
On 1 February 2012, LCCSyria criticised the international and Arab community as having been "unable to take any decision that contributes to stopping the cycle of violence in Syria". It estimated the number of deaths in the civil war is more than 100,000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Coordination_Committees_of_Syria
