This may start WW3 on DU.. but here goes

[Peacetrain]

Does anyone think that possibly, there might be a positive outcome from the US and Russia taking steps to work together to get the chemical weapons under UN control.

I will be the first to admit.. I am not a Putin fan.. His history is pretty bleak. But can some good actually come out of this mess.

I am not taking sides here.. just posing a question.

[rug]

1. Yes.

[Grateful for Hope]

2. I hope so.

And I think the potential is there.

:fingerscrossed:

[polly7]

3. Absolutely, if both really are interested in a good outcome. nt.

[Uncle Joe]

4. It can't effectively or morally be done any other way.

Thanks for the thread, Peacetrain.

[orpupilofnature57]

5. Positive speculation of cooperation will avoid

WWIII.

[MannyGoldstein]

6. I smell... a free trade agreement!

It'll be great.

[Cali_Democrat]

20. Manny

Always the optimist.

[MannyGoldstein]

23. You know what sucks?

As cynical as I am, the reality...

[cui bono]

27. American Russian Syrian Exchange.... otherwise known as

ARSE

[Heather MC]

71. ha ha the Logo can be the butt of a Donkey

[johnd83]

7. I think it will either have good results or unite the world against Assad

If they were double-bluffing Kerry (which is entirely possible) I think it will make other countries so angry that it may force an multinational response more in line with Libya where we were essentially upholding treaties by supporting allies rather than running the operation.

[Marrah_G]

8. I think there can be a positive outcome in both sides seriously want that.

[Tree-Hugger]

9. I hope for good outcomes nt

[0rganism]

10. this has to be the most peaceful "WW3 on DU" i've ever seen

must... tread... carefully... on... these... eggshells....

[JHB]

40. Aaahhh! I can't take it anymore! Launch the bird!

[ChaoticTrilby]

77. Oh, you evil, evil, war hawk.

[bigtree]

11. yes, the President could come to his senses and withdraw his threat to strike Syria

. . . or just let Russia and Syria string him out indefinitely while keeping the threat in place.

Seem likely?

I don't have any illusion that Syria and Russia intend to kowtow to President Obama; threat, strike, or whatever. Their sticking point appears to be the threat of force.

Nothing productive will happen if we move to intervene militarily.

[Autumn]

12. Yes. I do think there will be a positive outcome.

This is how it should work.

[DLnyc]

13. Yes. The best way to enforce international law is through international consensus.

Unilateral (illegal) military action to bolster international law is, to use a hackneyed phrase, like fucking for virginity.

[sufrommich]

14. I hope for a positive outcome,it could bring

nothing but good for the world.

[loyalsister]

15. I've been thinking the same thing

It could be a nice way to end cold war antagonism.

[TheCowsCameHome]

16. Working together with others. It may catch on.

Sumpin' different. Let's try it.

[Enrique]

17. of course

the Putin outrage is just weird and makes no sense. Since when is Russia our enemy? We didn't freak out like this when we signed the START treaty, did we become enemies since 2010?

[jimlup]

18. It might actually prevent wwIII on DU...

This has been my take on the situation for several days now. yeah we have a bunch of different opinions on here but this is actually important shit. If the world can actually settle a big deal problem like this diplomatically that's a BIG first step. Diplomacy has not worked for much since well before 1991 Gulf War. Perhaps we would have to all the back to the end of WWII to recall a time when diplomacy actually worked. Generally when good outcomes have occurred it has been because one side or the other had another catastrophy to deal with.

[Squinch]

42. We could still gin up a WWIII if someone just had the courage to use the corn flake chicken option.

[Ghost in the Machine]

82. With a generous portion of breastfeeding a pitbull at Olive Garden?? n/t

[Squinch]

85. No need to go in for the nuclear options from the start. We should hold them in the arsenal

until they are absolutely necessary.

[GP6971]

19. I'm hoping. n/t

[Link Speed]

21. No country should possess CW except the US

It's so simple, really.

Really, this is the only country that would never deploy a weapon of mass destruction.

[jtuck004]

48. If you click on smilies, then click on the 3 little dots at the end, the sarcasm

tag is the first one on the list. You may not have explored that far yet.

[bvar22]

22. Some GOOD has already come out of this mess.

We aren't Spreading American Style Democracy with BOMBS in Syria today.

We have backed away from the brink of a New WAR.
THAT is a GOOD thing.

There will be a vote in Congress,
and if Congress stays the course and does NOT authorize a Blank Check for War again,
then a precedent will be set affirming the Constitutional Requirement for a President to go to Congress BEFORE attacking another country,
and THAT would be a GOOD THING.

[Warpy]

24. Putin is not a stupid man

and he knows it's in his best interest not to have another new and crazy Islamic state anywhere near Chechnya. I think he will be good to deal with over this one issue because of that.

However, it would be a mistake to consider it the beginning of any sort of strong alliance. Both countries are looking out for Number One and both countries will keep that in mind in any future dealings.

[shenmue]

25. Oh, the war's been going on here for a while

But you're right. It will be better than a war.

[quinnox]

26. But Putin talking peace and extending a fig leaf to the USA is wrong! Damn him, why can't he be like

other former Russian leaders and rattle the sabers and ratchet up the war rhetoric! The nerve of the guy, to write a column talking about not escalating the conflict in the Middle East, and the futility of using military force as a solution.




You are 100% correct, of course. It is a good thing that we are seeing this kind of diplomacy and talk, instead of war.

[WillyT]

28. Yes.

Great Question.

[blm]

29. Lavrov and Kerry seem to have a good working relationship.

And I think Putin and Obama have been getting along better than they want the media and certain dictators to know.

[lumpy]

67. My hunch is that Russia and the US have been discussing the Syrian problem for a long time,

hammering out a solution.

[blm]

83. Not a hunch - - it's a fact. Kerry and Lavrov have been at this for

way longer than people think.

[Kablooie]

30. Maybe

but maybe not.

I leaving my options open.

[dtom67]

31. no, but not for the reasons you might think....

the reason nothing good will come out of it is that we don't want that.

There are hundreds of billions of dollars to be made by defense contractors ( GDP boost! ),Saudi Arabia and Qatar, Turkey, and Western Europe. Not to mention that this is an opportunity to hit Russia financially and politically, as part of ongoing efforts to preserve ( and expand ) our hegemony.

So, I believe there can be no success ; we may have to wait a few months to attack, but that is it.

And don't believe that ANYONE other than the American taxpayer will pay for this war. The Saudis may buy us a few replacement tomahawks, but they know that once we start killing we will do our patriotic duty: borrowing trillions to give to the Rich and powerful.


And we'll get a shiny new surveillance state to go with it....

[lumpy]

69. Sad that you are without hope and faith. Must be depressing to live with pessimism.

[baldguy]

32. Does anyone really believe it would have happened if Obama hadn't threatened to bomb Syria

to eliminate their chemical weapons?

[karynnj]

43. Even a Russian diplomat said this had not gained traction until

2 weeks ago.

[Posteritatis]

33. I loathe Putin, but if this works it's as close to an ideal outcome as can be achieved

Great power politics are often as much about what gets done as what you think of the guys in charge, anyway.

[lumpy]

70. Why should you loath Putin? The Russian people have confidence in him.

[Posteritatis]

78. Authoritarians suck, and popular doesn't necessarily mean admirable. (nt)

[lumpy]

80. Get some Russian opinion.

[Andy823]

34. I hope so

It needs to start someplace, peaceful actions instead of wars. If these two men can start something then maybe down the road it will be easier to work things out without force. We can hope for the best.

[backscatter712]

35. That's the whole point of diplomacy.

We send people out, and hash out difficult issues with difficult people, in hopes of coming up with a mutually agreeable solution that doesn't involve trying to kill each other.

[Fuddnik]

36. Putin kicked Dana Rohrbachers ass in a drunken arm wrestling match.

I'll start a separate thread on it.

http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/13/20479748-congressman-recounts-inebriated-arm-wrestling-match-with-putin?lite

Congressman recounts inebriated arm-wrestling match with Putin
By Carrie Dann, NBC News

If you’re like most Americans, you've probably at one point lost a drunken arm-wrestling match to a notoriously brusque future world leader to settle an argument over geopolitical power shifts following a few drinks at an Irish pub after a touch football game.

No?

California Republican Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, in fact, says he’s done just that.

The congressman told Kitty Felde of local public radio station KPCC-FM that, in the early 1990s, he got smoked by young Vladimir Putin, then a local official in St. Petersburg, in a booze-fueled Feat of Strength.

The story goes like this: Seeking refreshment after a game of touch football (which featured a lineup including Scooter Libby, the future chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney who was convicted of obstruction of justice), Rohrabacher and some visiting Russian politicians -- including the relatively unknown Putin – stopped by a DC watering hole, the Irish Times Pub.

After throwing back a few, the Americans and the Russians exchanged words about “who won the Cold War, etc.”

“And so,” Rohrabacher went on to explain, “we decided to settle it like men do when they’ve had too much to drink in the pub.”

(Read: the two challenged each other to an arm-wrestling match.)

(snip) more at link

[Tikki]

37. Well, what condie couldn't do...she will be so jealous...

and isn't palin the other Russian expert..

This will play out without a WW3...


Tikki

[L0oniX]

38. There was supposed to be a positive outcome from the end of the cold war. Where is it?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. It could be. If they both work to facilitate regional settlements and peace.

Facilitate...not bully, not dictate, not command.

[karynnj]

41. I think there could be many good effects

In fact, today, Kerry and Lavrov took a break from the chemical weapons issue to meet with a UN envoy on Geneva 2 - the effort to get a political solution to Syria. I could imagine that if this works, there is a chance to work with Iran.

This also would - just by it happening - improve the relationship with Russia. I don't really see the down side - and BOTH the US gain if Syria does not have these weapons.

[MinneapolisMatt]

44. Gawd I hope so!

[kimbutgar]

45. Definitely more is gained by working together than working apart

[Scootaloo]

46. I think if followed through it'll be an improvement

It won't end the Syrian civil war, of course.. .but it can't make things there worse, which is a damn sight more than can be said for the plan involving missiles.

[mick063]

47. There is no money in Peace.

Justification is required for maintaining our colossal military might. Too much money at stake for your encouraging vision. "Hating" Putin goes a long way toward reinforcing our need for military requirements. Nothing would beef up military spending like another cold war. Hence, I'm inclined to believe we will go the opposite direction.

[glowing]

49. Tit for Tat... Honestly, the USA doesn't have much moral outrage to lay claim to anymore.

We have been in some sort of war or land grab since the beginning of the nation and continue to use imperial force to dictate to others just how mighty and massive our methods of shock and awe can have on them.

It would be nice to see countries have a more equal footing on the national stage and for leaders to actually work towards the betterment of the lives of all the people within the imaginary lines drawn on the maps of the open globe.

The world should be here for all to see and enjoy and mix up in. The technology, infrastructure, and overall goodwill of people could live quite peacefully in a progressive manner. It would be good to have access to education, cultural experiences, different cuisines and customs. It would be good that we share our finite resources responsibly and that the 1% didn't exploit everything they touch to keep it in their hands and the rest of us spending out lives toiling for a foothold.

It's possible... And the more technology connects us easily to one another for first hand interaction whether via Skype or YouTube or blogs, we see the many similarities of humanity that we all possess... It's a lot harder to bomb people you now know as a friend and not some scary boogy man on the other side of the world.

[eridani]

50. A. It's possible. B. It beats the hell out of unilateral military action n/t

[hlthe2b]

51. who knows? The one thing I can agree with Reagan on, is the admonishment,

"trust but verify"....

That said, Putin is a very smart guy...He's going to do whatever is in his interest and we would be wise not to lose sight of that.

[RKP5637]

52. Yes IMO. I am optimistic about this! At minimal, it's far more

positive than the previous direction.

[NoOneMan]

53. Various Goods AND Bads are results of any historically significant event

There will be myriad impacts on the course of history, weaving in intersecting ways to a new and different world. We will never know if that chosen world will be a more benevolent one than a world otherwise at the end of the day. In such a respect, moralizing about the future course or the past is an exercise in futility to the Gods of Truth. We're all just shooting craps here on this rock.

[Cleita]

54. Look at history. Start with WWII

We had to have Stalin, who was ten times worse than Assad, let alone Putin, as an ally to beat Hitler. If the Russians hadn't taken Germany from the east while we worked the western front, we may still be fighting WWII. All that is going on in the ME is really a surrogate war between our oil and shipping interests against Russia and China's interests. I think it's good that we are going to the table to try to resolve this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. WW III started on DU a while ago to be honest

the polarization has grown to the point that it is beyond healing IMO. This, just another brush war.

Now in the real world, I hope this leads to good things, but the WW III in DU is a reflection of the real world in the US, a highly polarized society.

[Cleita]

56. Polarization that is fueled by corporate media I'm afraid and it spills

over into here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. I can't prove it, but we have corporate shills

when DU started it was a small corner of the Internet. Yeah, we had our disagreements but they tended to be disagreements, not to the point I cannot have a conversation with some folks. That used to be limited to Republicans.

This, to be brutally honest, scares the living daylights out of me.

[Cleita]

59. No need for proof.

They are totally obvious and from both sides of the think tank. That's the reason I persevere here. I know what they are up to. I'm sure this post will be alerted on as well.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. I had a new guy ask why I no longer alert

I said I do not play rigged games either.

[Cleita]

62. Good for you. Eff them. eom

[another_liberal]

58. Yes, of course!

The alternative to cooperation concerning Syria is a very dangerous confrontation between our countries. Syria is far more important to Russia than she is to us. We are only interested in a detached way, because of our desire to control oil resources and in support Israel. Russia's Southern border is not far removed from the actual Syrian battlefields. To them peace in Syria is essential to security in their own country.

If we can just come down off our high and mighty Superpower attitude long enough to recognize Russia's interests in Syria, together we can destroy Assad's chemical weapons, and perhaps even bring peace to that terribly suffering land.

[Skittles]

61. in theory, yes

but I simply no longer trust them

[DonCoquixote]

63. Of course

Obama and Putin are in the mess they are in because they both tried to write machismo checks to their peanut galleries. If little "fuck ups" can actually become a face saving device, they will be used again and again, and if they save lives, then Vive le Faux pas et Fuck ups!

[KamaAina]

64. Better you start WWIII on DU

than having it start in real life.

[Jack Rabbit]

65. Yes, I'd give it reasonsable chance

It's a cinch to have a better outcome than the Molotov-Ribbentrop non-aggression pact of 1939.

[lumpy]

72. Certainly, Molotov (Russian extemist) and Von Ribbentrop ( Nazi) were from the old school of

Conquer All no matter what.

[grahamhgreen]

66. Of course. Diplomacy first. War is for failures.

[kestrel91316]

68. Yes. Perhaps. I'm not one of those who automatically equates

Russia today with the Soviet Union of yesteryear.

[lumpy]

73. Probably little comparison.

[Dragonfli]

74. Yes, putting CW under UN control and not escalating a civil war to do so would be quite positive.

[lumpy]

75. If the UN would just come through....

[Zorra]

76. I believe that most of us here want to see people stop harming each other, especially in wars. nt

[NuttyFluffers]

79. of course! removed chem weapons peacefully would be great!

may seem improbable from here, accidental in how we got here diplomatically, and challenging to implement in the middle of a civil war.

but there is still a remote chance that it can all end up swimmingly! the important thing is to keep talking.

[DevonRex]

81. It's possible Obama can sucker Putin into doing something

not evil. Putin won't mean to do anything good for anybody else, mind you, as his primary goal.

One thing about elevating your country to importance again is that people start watching what you do very closely. And Russia needs watching. That's another benefit. Might be harder for Russia to veto humanitarian aid, peace negotiations and sanctions in situations like Syria in the future now that Putin has pretended to be so fucking holier than thou. Hypocritical asshole who actually raids the Russia offices of HRW.

[CakeGrrl]

84. Yes. And the President will have been the catalyst

which will annoy some no end. Tough.