Hey guys let's support this message when it comes to rape

[Arcanetrance]

<a href=".html" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_26341717215713.jpg"/></a>


I felt this needed to be updated here I also posted this down thread. There are a few truths us as guys need to face. Rape culture is a very real thing and whether we like it or not our gender is responsible for a majority of it. It's not only directed at women either when was the last time you cracked a joke about not dropping the soap in prison. I understand some of you are older guys and feel this doesn't apply to you but it does you're older you're the guys that younger generations look up to. It's on all of us the older to teach the younger and the younger to call out their peer group and educate.

[Suich]

1. Speaking as a woman,

I support this message 100%!

Thanks, Arcanetrance!

[Arcanetrance]

3. It needs to be posted we are the only ones that can stop rape

[LittleBlue]

2. I don't rape and have never raped

So how do I take responsibility for those who do? Am I also to take responsibility for all the homicides and burglaries other men commit?

That statement is vacuous.

[Arcanetrance]

5. I've never raped either but it still remains fact the majority of rapists are male

It's up to us to keep an eye out if we are at a party and see a guy taking advantage of a woman there we need to step in and shut it down. In colleges whole fraternities shut up when it comes to rape that needs to stop we need to speak up

[Warren DeMontague]

8. I don't know how old you are, but I do think you may be misreading the demographics on DU a tad.

In my experience this place is overwhelmingly made up of Baby Boomer empty nesters, not exactly drunk frat boys.

I agree, if anyone here happens to be at a party and see a guy taking advantage of a woman they should do exactly that. However the last time I, personally, was drinking at a fraternity party was probably 1983.

[Arcanetrance]

11. I'm 26 I know there's a lot of guys my age here

But does the message really lose the meaning when it comes to guys older than me.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. Yeah, I mean "tell guys in the locker room and at the parties that rape isn't cool"

isn't really relevant in my personal universe.


But I do support the messaging, and I hope it makes a difference.

[seabeyond]

32. i dont know warren, how about TEACh our sons. since you are no longer of the age, it is time we

hand that obligation and responsibilities to our sons. i know i have clearly taught mine and they have absolutely no issue what so ever to accept the role without figuring they are being accused as rapists.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. And what makes you think I don't? It's presumptuous to think that, isn't it?

You don't know me.

In fact, it seems that 90% of the time some people here react to things they imagine I have said, as opposed to the stuff I've actually said.

I do think that better societal messaging around consent, for instance, was dearly needed in Steubenville. That was clearly an example of a community not doing its job.

[seabeyond]

48. YOU were whining about not being of the age or circumstance where anything would be relevant.

i gave you an example where, as an old man, no longer in the locker room or bar or party, you would be influence.

then you get all whiney for that.

warren. you wanted to know how to be effective. there is the answer.


you do it, bully for you. i would think being clear on you place in teaching our boys their responsibility, you would have been able to voice your action all by yourself without my help.

[Warren DeMontague]

52. I 'get all whiney'? No, I don't.

Look, there's actual Warren who says the actual stuff that is written on DU, then there's this imaginary straw Warren who runs around saying and doing all this egregious crap.

Imaginary straw Warren is only in the heads of certain people, I've noticed.

I pointed out- and the OP agreed with me- that messages like "next time you're at a party tell your bros rape isn't cool" isn't really applicable to a large portion of the demographic on DU. It isn't. Other than that, I've been in wide agreement with the OP.

I don't go to parties like that, I don't go to bars, and I don't go out looking for fights, either. I have better shit to do.

[seabeyond]

53. kinda like suggesting the message is men that have never raped need to call themselves rapist.

[Warren DeMontague]

61. And again, that's something only imaginary straw Warren said.

Rape is wrong, and men have a responsibility to communicate that.

That's how I'm going to interpret the message.

[seabeyond]

66. you were interpreting it another way warren, where you were opposed to the word "responsibility" so

much so you have a number of posts challenging and stating it can be taken in a different manner.

so, i guessed wrong. it is not men who have never raped calling themselves rapist. what would it be you and blue found so fuckin objectionable that it was telling you to do?

[Warren DeMontague]

68. I said I agreed with the OP.

So I'm not sure where you're getting "found so fuckin objectionable".

Oh, right, I remember.

[seabeyond]

70. ya... right. go with the pictures now that you ran around in circles for a half hour

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

27. Hey, you're a bit younger than my son,

so perhaps older guys like me should throttle young punks who wish to abuse women. That would send a message.

[Arcanetrance]

47. Yeah because that was the intended message of this

I'm sorry if you're not willing to discuss this but taking my argument to illogical points isn't furthering anything

[BainsBane]

19. There are men raising sons on this board

so the issue is quite relevant. What parents, and fathers in particular, teach their sons about women matters a great deal.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. Like I said, I support the message that rape is unacceptable.

However I don't buy that all men are responsible for rape. Rapists are responsible for rape, although certainly there are instances -i.e. Steubenville- where the community has done a piss-poor job of teaching about consent and what is unacceptable.

[Precisely]

31. Who said "that all men are responsible for rape"?

[Warren DeMontague]

49. the message says "it's time for us to take responsibility", which can be interpreted several ways.

However, since any discussion on this matter always seems to lead to deliberate misrepresentation of the actual words said, I will merely add that rape is a real societal problem, it is unacceptable and CERTAINLY men have a responsibility to send clear messages about consent and call our (or better yet, report) any rape or potential rape behavior in their peer group.

[seabeyond]

51. right warren cause the message would be asking men who NEVER raped to take responsibility for RAPE

that makes so fuckin' much sense. you got us. all us bad bad women want men who do not rape to declare themselves rapists. fuck

[Precisely]

54. isn't that what you did?

If "the message says "it's time for us to take responsibility", which can be interpreted several ways"

by reacting as if it was "all" it "seems deliberate misrepresentation of the actual words said"

[Warren DeMontague]

57. Then let me say again, I think that men absolutely have a responsibility to spread the message that

rape is wrong.

[seabeyond]

60. people are asking for a step BEYOND a mere statement. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

62. Please elaborate.

[Precisely]

63. Who doesn't know that?!

[Warren DeMontague]

64. According to some people in this thread, not knowing that is rampant.

But I guess I don't exist in the real world, which is populated with roofie-slippin' "playas" bragging in bars and locker rooms about their rapes.

[BainsBane]

75. I think society in general participates in perpetuating rape culture

Men and women. It's not just Steubenville. It's everywhere.

[pnwmom]

89. The demographics include plenty of fathers who should be educating their sons,

including their college age sons.

Men learn these attitudes at home.

[LittleBlue]

10. I can support the statement

"look out for your companions at parties" or "no mean no."

I absolutely will not take collective responsibility for a crime I didn't commit. Some rapist who commits a felony in a dorm has nothing to do with me.

[BrotherIvan]

20. I believe it is the responsibility of a community and a civil society

to make clear boundaries between right and wrong, teach our children, protect all people, and hold people accountable for their actions. It's no skin off my back to do so. It's part of being a human being. But that's just me.

[Precisely]

33. Here it is

This applies to everyone. Well put.

[BainsBane]

21. Here's how it often plays out

One or two guys rape, while the rest stand around and either watch or know of it, but do nothing. The young woman is then ridiculed in school and on social media. The woman reports the rape to school authorities, who sweep it under the rug. She reports it to police, who treat her like shit. If it goes to prosecutors, she is then violated again in court. The jury is made up of men and women who decide whether the accused rapist should be punished. The end result is that 5% of rapists are prosecuted. The woman lives with that trauma her entire life, and it affects her future relationships.

Around 20-25% of women are raped in their lifetimes. If you have sons or daughters, it has a lot to do with you. Either you can blame people for daring to talk about rape in your presence or you can actively work to erode rape culture. Your choice.

[LittleBlue]

25. None of that applies to me

I have never raped nor encouraged rape by any statement or action. I have never served on a jury nor do I have kids.


So if some guy wants to take responsibility for another, be my guest. I won't.

[seabeyond]

35. fuck fellow man... right? no skin off yoru nose. hey.. progressive board, democrats, any of this

ring a fuckin bell?

[LittleBlue]

91. I'm a progressive therefore

I must take responsibility for another man's rape? Feeling sympathy has nothing to do with collective blame. Unless you're one of those who think Muslims must take responsibility for terrorism.

Collective respnsibility for individual crimes is illogical and unfair. I reject it.

[seabeyond]

94. you really have not read anyones post trying to educate you beyond your wrongness in interpretation,

yet, you continue to argue a.... falsehood

brilliant.

tip the hat off to you

[LittleBlue]

119. I'm not in the least bit interested in

being "educated" with illogical reasoning.

Just calling something education doesn't make it so.

[seabeyond]

122. i am well aware you will be the first to high five a sexist post. and that you are not the intended

recipient of what the OP is saying.

we are all, in this thread, pretty clear about your position with women and feeling about them, and your privilege over them.

i am off to ignoring you guys again.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

113. Move Forward in the Now and the Future. "Collective responsibility" is for historians.

Dwelling on the issue of "collective responsibility" doesn't implement progressive solutions in the present and real time.

[LittleBlue]

116. You aren't making any sense

It's just the vacuous statements made by people who want to make a group collectively responsible for an individual.

Bill O, Hannity and the rest use this specious reasoning to justify the identical thing about blacks and Muslims. I'm sorry, but there is no logic behind what you say.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

121. If you keep knocking "collective responsibility for past crimes", it's as if you avoid real issues.

I'm not accusing you. Just a word to the wise to not get mistaken for someone like that by dwelling on the phrase and discussing only that aspect.

When the right wing and the teas shout about "reparations" and denounce "collective responsibility" for slavery, they have a small point, but they are happy to have the debate focus on the past so that they can avoid dealing with progressive solutions here and now. They are happy to debate history if they can avoid responsibility now for education, health care, affordable housing, drug treatment, veteran's benefits, and a dozen more areas where action here and now can have real results.

This is why I refuse to engage you on whether or not there is a "collective responsibility" for rapes that have already happened.

See my first reply to you in this thread (post #96) for things you can do. Progressive actions and speech and interventions are not vacuous statements. Being responsible is about seizing the moment when a chance comes your way.

[LittleBlue]

124. Interesting game you play

Accuse group of x. If they deny collective responsibility, they are similar to Republicans using the denial to avoid unrelated issues. Either take collective blame, or take individual blame. That's quite a choice you're giving me if I accept such illogical thinking.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

126. I never accused males of "collective responsibility". Not my game. Nor have I blamed you. nt.

[bettyellen]

159. HELL YES AND THANK YOU!!!

between this crap and "one feminist said X crazy thing once" - it's obvious derailing.

[BainsBane]

76. So in other words, why should you give a damn

about anyone else?

[LittleBlue]

118. Replace "give a damn about" with "take responsibility for"

and you've got it dead on.

[Ilsa]

67. Yes, it affects future relationships. Including careers.

Work relationships, even the ability to concentrate on work, are affected by trust issues, PTSD, messed up sleep, having good judgment, etc. That's why I am really hard on rapists: they steal years of women's lives and more.

Here's a scenario: a single woman, age 30-35 is raped. Her current relationship falls apart from the stress. It takes 4-5 years of therapy and effort on her part to get past the brutality of her experience. She finally is able to meet "Mr. Right", marry, but by then, she runs the risk of being infertile or having children with disabilities. The rapist has affected a life to the extent that he may have prevented her from having a much desired family.

[BainsBane]

81. It also affects her children

and how she raises them, which in turn affects those they interact with.

People insist on distancing themselves from rape. "I've never raped anyone, so it doesn't apply to me." "It's a problem in Steubenville." Even other women often blame rape victims: "What was she doing out at night. I wouldn't dress like that. She shouldn't have gone back to his place," etc. . .
The fact is even for those fortunate enough not to be raped themselves, it has an influence on them and on society more generally. We live in a rape culture.

[Ilsa]

83. +100 nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

98. Not responsibility for crimes; take responsibility for being part of the solution. nt

[Californeeway]

90. women commit sexual assualt too, against women and men

to say otherwise is ignorant.

I've been sexually assaulted by women at least 5 times, mostly when I was too drunk to get them off me or because I was passed out drunk and didn't know what happened till afterward. I've had numerous guy friends tell me the same. I've heard women brag about it with no sense for the reality that they had committed a crime against someone.

None of us reported it because we knew the double standard being what it was that the cops would just laugh at us and tell us that we should be grateful for getting lucky or whatever but we still felt disgusted, we still felt wronged. Doesn't matter that we thought those women were gross, that we made clear we were uninterested, that we didn't consent, that they took advantage of us when we were incapacitated, that they knowingly did it against our will. That double standard is stupid because if we want real equality for everyone that we have the same protections and same responsibility no exceptions.

CAN WE JUST SAY RAPE IS WRONG PERIOD WITHOUT INTERJECTING THIS IGNORANT MAN-HATING BULLSHIT?

[seabeyond]

92. bah hahaha. well, men commit OVER 98% of rape. women UNDER 2%. certainly wouldnt want to be like...

fuckin' IGNORANT.

and that is about as far as i got into your post.

welcome to du....

[Californeeway]

102. men don't ever report it when it happens

And even if they did, it wouldn't be taken seriously unless there was some evidence of physical violence.

but if you think a guy sneaking into a girls room at night, while she is passed out drunk or too drunk to resist and forcing sexual acts of her is rape, it's rape when a women does it do a man too or another woman for that matter. And yes it happens a lot. Visit a college campus sometime.

But whenever the issue of rape arises. There is no shortage of "feminists" who are quick to point out that only men are capable of being the bad guy when my personal experience has shown me that no sex has the monopoly of evil bullshit.

[seabeyond]

107. find me one feminist or anyone for that matter that has stated a woman has never sexually assaulted.

again, derailing the discussion 101

[Californeeway]

117. you just got done saying only 2% of rapists are women

what the OP said for Christ's sake... as a man who has actually experienced being assaulted by women I find that offensive because it's obviously not true. Most men feel as though they don't even have the right to consider it sexual assault at all so it's never accounted for, which is sad, if women have a right to not have awful shit like that forced on them, then men have the same right too or it's not real equality.

the derailment is where we go from agreeing that rape or any kind or sexual assault is always wrong to ........well, mostly men do it, so let's give men a guilt complex and talk about them like they are all potential rapists unless properly educated. That's offensive. I don't appreciate being treated like a potential rapist because of what sex I was born. Treating people differently whatsoever based on sex is supposed to be what we are fighting against as Liberals.

[seabeyond]

120. are you saying a significant amount of women are raping men, comparable to men raping? is this what

you are arguing?

you are new, and you do not know me. i have for a decade called out rapes against men and am along with a few others, their greatest ally. following the Op is not a tough one for me regardless who rapes, and who is raped.

a significant number of girls and women do not report rape either. fact

and the fact is, the majority of rapes are hands down, done by men. men raping kids. men raping girls. men raping women. and men raping men.

now... i wont be responding again. obviously you would rather dismiss what the Op is saying, your right, i wont be a part of it any longer.

[Californeeway]

125. I'm saying Rape is wrong

focus on that, leave the man bashing out of it.
I have no problem seeing that more men are committing rape than women, if only for basic physiological reasons but it's all way under reported, the numbers are unreliable and always in flux do to changes in societal attitudes. Safe to assume it's happening a lot and from my experiences women are capable of it and most don't even realize what they are doing because they assume that no man ever says no, but we say no and mean it too.

Let both young men and women know that if they are doing something sexual to someone without consent it's wrong. I've met a lot of women that don't get that and regularly engage in borderline behavior. So much energy is directed at young men no one stops to think that a lot of young women need a clarification too about what their responsibilities are.

I never reported my incidents and only started talking about it with friends recently. My guy friends were supportive and said it happened to them too but they didn't think they were allowed as men to complain and all of them resented it. I don't think that's right, we ALL have a right to say no.

[seabeyond]

127. Ah. Man bashing. So it really was all about a derail. See, thinking you are clever but

Reality is.... So damn obvious. I can never get past the glaring obvious of you first few sentences of every post.

[Arcanetrance]

145. Seabeyond is the most consistent voices against rape on this board

Regardless of the sex of the victim or the sex of the rapist Seabeyond is consistent in her voice against rape.

[Arcanetrance]

144. First off let me say I'm a man who has been raped by another male

I wasn't attempting to discount rape of any form. But in the grand scheme of things men do commit a overwhelming majority of rape. Yes it's hard for men to come forward due to stigma but that whole stigma that's part of rape culture. Now think about how hard it is for you to step forward and put yourself in the role of the female having been raped. Strike one was she was raped the authorities despite what they say take rape victims with a grain of salt. Than you have a prosecutor who a majority of the time doesn't want to bring rhetoric case because in his eyes unless the victim was a virgin saint any sex the victim has ever had will be used against her. Now say the case makes it to trial the victim now has to repeat her story for the umpteenth time and have someone else question her and basically call her a liar. Now tell me there's no stigma there that keep women from reporting rapes themselves. But us as guys can help educate and put a stop to this behavior

[Buns_of_Fire]

12. Neither have I. But I've had close friends who've been raped. And worse.

All too often, we men tend to shrug off with a wink and a nod the "playas" who live their lives by the motto "Candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker, and roofies are quicker still." People who know me know that I don't cotton to that behavior -- and they know that if I find about it, I'll do my damnedest to bring them down. Socially, professionally, legally, I don't care -- all three, if I can manage it. It's that repugnant to me.

I've been around too much of it to tolerate it.

[Arcanetrance]

13. Exactly

[Warren DeMontague]

16. we men tend to shrug off with a wink and a nod the "playas" who live their lives....

"we" do?

Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong crowd. I've never seen anything even remotely resembling what you describe.

[Buns_of_Fire]

28. That's a generic "we," of course. I was afraid that might be misinterpreted.

Yes, sometimes I have been tangentially associated with what might be justifiably called The Wrong Crowd.

On the other hand, many might be surprised at how many of The Wrong Crowd occupy professional positions and positions of authority.

Peace.

[seabeyond]

41. or how often what is being said goes right over ones head, because they too are so conditioned in

this society.

[Precisely]

34. Maybe roofies weren't a thing in your day?

Times have changed.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. I guess, it just sounds to me like something out of an after-school special, not reality.

Here, then, let me lay it out: IF you're someone who hangs out in bars or locker rooms with "playas" who brag about giving roofies to women, run don't walk to the nearest police station and report that individual.

I think in that situation a simple "hey bro that's not cool bro really bro" isn't going to cut it.

[seabeyond]

37. well look man... here you did exactly what people, women and the OP suggests. how much, did it hurt?

thank you for your post

we even have know little sayings, "once she hits puberty, free game", yet there are men that actually PRETEND this is not a reality

[Warren DeMontague]

39. we do?

who said that?

[seabeyond]

44. damn... per this thread so innocent, naive and certainly not a part of the real world. not heard a

thing, seen a thing, know NUTHIN' by gosh. roofies???? what??? after school, surely you jest it is a reality

[Warren DeMontague]

45. What in the blue blazes are you talking about?

I asked who on DU said that thing about Puberty. Did someone here actually say that?

[seabeyond]

50. well yes, they have. no i am not hunting it down. du2, 12 yr old stripper in dallas thread if you

are interested. but, it is really not only about du, now is it. you have never heard men use that saying? never? cause that is what we are talking about dude, the real world and men standing up in teh REAL fuckin world.

[Warren DeMontague]

55. No, I don't remember that thread. Hopefully whoever said that has been banned. But in answer to your

question, no. I have NEVER heard anyone say anything like that. Not even as a post-modern ironic deliberate "shock" move.

Maybe I live in a different real world than you.

[seabeyond]

59. ya. right. and havent heard the get em drunk chant either? or anyone using roofies?

as i say, such an innocently naive world it is hard to fathom. almost pollyannish.

[Warren DeMontague]

65. sigh

here. just put whatever words you want in this thing's mouth, then argue with it. Enjoy your weekend!

[seabeyond]

69. ah.... now some pictures to derail and dismiss this Op and the subject. nothing like consistency.

[opiate69]

132. Well, I'm sure your friends iverglas and Eloriel over at the other board applaud your efforts.

[oldhippie]

77. Well, whatever world you live in, .....

..... I'm in there with you. I don't hang around with a crowd that says and does those things. I have no idea what a "roofie" is, and I'm not going to look it up.

I have also observed that there is a crowd her that will not let you have the last word, no matter how much you try to appease them.

[seabeyond]

79. hey... us women do NOT have the option of staying in the dark of what a roofie is. we had better

damn well be currant on all rape tool and know how to prevent it or not only be raped but blamed for it too.

but hey, no reason you should be concerned about little stuff like that.

[oldhippie]

95. And that is the typical response >>>>

... that I would expect from you. I hope "you women" learn to live and survive in your world.

So I guess I'll be concerned enough to go look up "roofie" when I get a chance. I sure wouldn't want to be ignorant about your world.

[seabeyond]

97. you dismiss with lack of interest a drug regularly being used to rape girls and you have an issue

with me.

how about if that mentality doesnt impress me much. like, totally disrespect any person that feels the need to dismiss a very real issue with ignorance, and does it proudly then gets pissed if anyone calls them on it

[oldhippie]

115. OK, so I learn that it's a drug ........

... fine.
Bye.

[MattBaggins]

17. Sigh

once again you come up with a post that one can only sigh to.

[CrispyQ]

18. You take responsibility for rape culture.

If you're with a group of men & one of them jokes about rape or makes light of a woman's consent, you call him out on it. If one of your friends makes a cat call to a woman walking by, you tell him, "Hey, that's not cool." If you're at a comedy club & the comedian jokes about gang raping one of the women in the audience, you stand up & shame him for it. When you are watching TV with your boys & a commercial comes on where two young men "wish" the clothes off of a young woman, & she's left in just her bra & panties while they snicker, you talk to your boys about it. That's what it means. You don't just sit silently by while rape culture is promoted, you speak out against it, & you educate others about it.


I cannot believe that not one man in that audience stood up & told Tosh to go fuck himself.

[LittleBlue]

23. How far are you willing to go with collective blame?

Fill in the blanks


________ should take responsibility for violent crime
________ should take responsibility for terrorism because most terrorists are ________
________ should take responsibility for rape since most rapes are committed by them


This illogical path is not one you want to travel down.

[bhikkhu]

29. Perhaps its a fine line, but taking responsibility for one's actions includes

considering how ones actions influence the actions of others. If one lives in a "rape culture", being mindful of that means paying attention, and personally deciding to not be a part of it, but to do and say whatever can be done and said to change things. That is the responsible thing.

Its not a matter of taking blame, any more than absolving oneself of any blame is; its better to a vocal part of the solution rather than a silent part of the problem. "Our culture" includes us whether we like it or not.

Same goes for the other items on your list.

[Precisely]

36. Blame or responsibility?

For acting with conscience. If you feel like it.

[seabeyond]

46. as a white person, i certainly do. as a upper class, you betcha. as a christian... hell ya.

doesnt even hurts and accomplishes so much.

someone gonna call out a christian, i get my voice has way more power to be heard than a non christian, when addressing calling out christians. why would i NOT use my voice to make a better world? why?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

111. "collective blame" is a red herring. Progressively join the collective solution.

Never let a chance pass for a teaching moment when a guy exhibits derogatory, oppressive, misogynistic or dismissive behavior or statements against a woman or women.

Of course, personal safety is always paramount.

[bettyellen]

160. THIS should be an OP. I might steal everything you have written here and make an OP of it.

Maybe.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

163. Steal away. Let me know if you do. nt

[CrispyQ]

167. Well, since men are predominately the perpetrators of those crimes as well,

perhaps you guys could add them to the 'needs work' list, too?


"I am white & I am not racist, therefore racism is not my problem."

If you agree with that statement then this is post wasted time, because I completely disagree with it. I am white & I am not racist & I believe that racism is definitely my problem & responsibility. Why? Because our society bestows great privilege to white people & because of that, I have a moral obligation to call out racism when I see & hear it. The rape thing is similar.

[LittleBlue]

168. You got one thing right

If you agree with that statement then this is post wasted time

Yep. No way in hell am I taking responsibility for racists just because I'm white.

Knock yourself out with that stuff, I'll pass.

[raccoon]

73. What's this about Tosh and the audience? elucidate my dear Watson. nt

[CrispyQ]

169. Tosh claims that he was trying to make the point that unfunny things can be funny.

He used rape as an example. When a young woman in the audience stood up & called him out on it, saying that actually, rape isn't funny, he said he thought it would be funny if five guys raped her right then & there. No fucking shit. He said that & not one other person, besides the girl's friend, stood to defend her.

And you know what? I suspect there were some guys in the audience who were sickened at what Tosh said, but the peer pressure, cultural acceptance of rape, kept them silent.

So when LittleBlue claims that rape is not his responsibility because he does not rape, he is wrong. He is part of a culture that glorifies/justifies rape & if he doesn't want a culture like that, he has responsibility to speak out & educate. However, if he doesn't mind that kind of culture, then he is truly part of the problem. I hope he just needs a little time to see things from a different perspective.

[seabeyond]

78. "not one man in that audience stood up & told Tosh to go fuck himself."go against the bro code. why,

that is .... hhhhhaaaard.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

96. If you lack imagination, listen up: fight rape culture when you encounter it by speaking up.

If you had 'friends' or co-workers or acquaintances planning a homicide or burglary, you'd take action and turn them in. That's taking responsibility.

You've had 'friends' who've said things like "Let me alone with her and I'd fuck the shit out of her". That's rape culture. Speak up against it and explain how it is not acceptable in civilized society.

You've had 'friends' who've said things like "Somebody fuck her so she'll shut up". That's rape culture.

You've had 'friends' who've said things about an ordinary woman like "That two-bit whore can suck my dick". That's rape culture.

You can call out street harassers (only if it is physically safe for you to do so). You know, whistles, catcalls, name-calling, demanding smiles.

To women who know and trust you, you can offer rides at night and accompany them to their car.

Never drop a woman off at a door or a car without ensuring that she can get safe inside the door or start the car.

That's only scratched the surface. There's so much more.

[seabeyond]

101. but the thing, these few men live in such a world they have never seen or heard this and are

clueless about date rape drugs then have the audacity to accuse the people that are educated and aware, not ignorant and naive, that we hang out with "bad" people or the wrong crowd.

nifty

if it is nowhere ever, in a lifetime, in your world, how can one do a single thing.

and we are expected to believe this.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

105. Yes, it's a self-reinforcing slam that keeps their hermetically sealed bubble intact. nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

104. It's a bit like the woman's partner in this cartoon:

[Squinch]

129. I have a suggestion about how you can take responsibility:

When you come across threads in which people are discussing their objections to a DUer asking how young can you go when considering girls as sex objects, you can not act as if the subject is hilarious, and you can refrain from "lolling" and making fun of the thread. Because when you "lol" and make fun of the thread, that's an example of not discouraging that kind of behavior.

See how easy that would be?

It would be most excellent.

[LittleBlue]

130. You're wrong

I never encouraged or committed rape by "lolling" at anything. Unless you're saying that by posting "lol" I encouraged a rape somewhere. Prove it by posting actual facts.

This is precisely why I object to this illogical BS. It's simple-minded.

[Squinch]

133. You're wrong. Prove to me that you didn't encourage that poster

to feel that getting his jollies by discussing his predilection for young girls was acceptable to members of this community. Prove that you didn't do that by posting actual facts.

This is precisely why I object to the kind of self justification BS in your post. It's simple-minded

[LittleBlue]

135. Burden of proof is on you

as it is impossible to prove a negative. The asserting party has the burden of proof, logic 101.

[Squinch]

136. Burden of encouraging a pedophile is on you. You can give me all the rules you learned in

your freshman logic class you want. None of them change the fact that you aligned yourself with a slimeball.

[LittleBlue]

138. "Burden of encouraging a pedophile is on you."

So you fold like a cheap suit when asked for proof. That's what I thought.

[Squinch]

140. You folded like a cheap suit when asked for proof that you didn't encourage a pedophile.

That's what I thought.

[Warren DeMontague]

4. I am 100% opposed to rape, and I support severe punishment for the crime.

I think one thing we as a society could do would be to stop letting violent criminals like rapists out of prison early -or giving them probation- so we have more cell space for non-violent drug offenders.

[Arcanetrance]

6. I couldn't agree more no probation no early release of any kind for rapists

[derby378]

7. Did you know India has sentenced four men to death by hanging for participating in gang rape?

I tend to be on the critical side of the death penalty because of racial disparity and human bias, but frankly, some folks just need killing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/judge-sentence-four-to-death-for-gang-rape-murder-of-student-on-new-delhi-bus/2013/09/13/25bb18d6-1b6c-11e3-8685-5021e0c41964_story.html

[Warren DeMontague]

9. Yeah, I'm opposed to the DP, but the criminals in that case deserve the worst punishment available.

Problem with the DP in my mind is, the justice system is not perfect. But like I said, we should save our prison space for violent criminals- like rapists- and not fill them up (as we are) with people like Richard Paey.

[Comrade Grumpy]

22. They murdered the victim.

[derby378]

26. By raping that poor girl to death (n/t)

[bhikkhu]

30. They tortured the girl to death

I'm not generally in favor of capital punishment, but things like that cry out for it.

[mercuryblues]

58. The Dp may have somethng

with the fact that they also murdered their victim.

[Ilsa]

71. The victim died from the attack. Hence, the death penalty was sought. nt

[Sand Wind]

14. K&r !

[ismnotwasm]

40. Or at last quit blaming women for their own rapes

There are several men's activists groups (different than MRA groups) working to further this message, and it's quite relevant and timely, thank you.

K&R

[CrispyQ]

170. Men who care for women, care about this issue. --nt

[NuclearDem]

42. Totally agree.

Lots we can do to fight rape culture. Best way is just to set an example.

This Jezebel article is a pretty good primer for emulating good behavior when it comes to making women feel safer. Recommended reading for men.

[seabeyond]

56. excellent. thank you. pro active. nt

[Precisely]

72. ^^^^^

[Precisely]

74. Thank you for posting this

Sorry about the messmakers. It's pretty clear and your intentions are right.

[Arcanetrance]

80. I honestly didn't expect this big of a shit storm there's so much being read into it that was never

Said. For example I never suggested all of us men are rapists. But we do benefit both good and bad from rape culture and we can put an end to it

[Precisely]

87. You're helping educate

[Squinch]

131. Don't you believe it for a second. No one is really reading that shit into it. They're disrupting.

Your post was obviously correct, and well timed, given what has been going on here over the past few days.

[Posteritatis]

143. Sadly it's pretty much the standard reaction on DU to these kinds of threads.

The place is better than it has been, but that's basically saying a broken leg is preferable to a severed one. There's a whole lot of room for improvement.

[hrmjustin]

82. And we should also mention there are men who are survivors of rape.

[Arcanetrance]

100. I agree I am one of those

[hrmjustin]

123. I am as well.

[BainsBane]

112. Absolutely

I really look at it in terms of the crime. In civil society women make up 90% of rape victims, but for that other 10% who are male, it's every bit as traumatic. In prison, statistics are, if I recall correctly, about 1/3 of male inmates are raped. Given we have the biggest prison population on earth, that's not a small number. Most of those men are released later in life.

[Sheldon Cooper]

84. This thread is showing 81 responses.

I can see exactly nine of them. Why am I not surprised?

[Arcanetrance]

86. I went to eat I come back and this degenerated I gotta redirect this conversation

[Sheldon Cooper]

88. It's a shame the HMWHC* always has to derail, but that

appears to be the single thing they excel in. I wonder why.

*He Man Women Haters Club

[Precisely]

106. Domination

an aspect of rape culture

[MadrasT]

128. Bingo.

Rape culture can't even be discussed without the usual suspects pitching a fit.

[Squinch]

137. Don't know that you can redirect it when the roaches come out to play, but

it does appear that those hijacking are few and those supporting your sentiments are many.

[Arcanetrance]

141. It does make me happy there's lots of support for the sentiment

But I hoped there would have been more support from my fellow males

[Squinch]

142. I actually think there is. Most of those disruptive threads are from the same

two or three (though I have a lot of those I suspect are posting here on ignore, and might be missing a lot of them.)

The vast majority of the ones I assume are men do agree with you.

[Squinch]

139. I seem to be missing a lot of these responses too. Shocked, shocked I tell you.

[Comrade Grumpy]

172. That must make the thread hard to understand.

The upshot is that in increases your echo chamber effect. Who, on a discussion board, wants to listen to someone that they may disagree with?

[Squinch]

176. Do you sign yourself up for updates from the likes of Bachmann or Beck?

Disagreement is one thing, but some people are not worth listening to.

[gopiscrap]

85. I agree

[Arcanetrance]

93. Look guys there's a few things that need to be accepted

Rape culture is a very real thing and whether we like it or not our gender is responsible for a majority of it. It's not only directed at women either when was the last time you cracked a joke about not dropping the soap in prison. I understand some of you are older guys and feel this doesn't apply to you but it does you're older you're the guys that younger generations look up to. It's on all of us the older to teach the younger and the younger to call out their peer group and educate.

[heaven05]

99. RAPE IS WRONG. PERIOD.

[Arcanetrance]

103. Yes, yes it is

But rape is also a symptom of a society that us men have created. It's something only we can put an end to

[heaven05]

109. true this.

Being part of the solution and not part of the problem is a good place to start.

[Laffy Kat]

108. I believe in collective guilt. It's karma.

Taught my kids what the white people did to the Native Americans. How 'bout slavery? None of us had a direct hand in either of those things, but we ARE guilty because we benefited from others' oppression a few generations removed. Nothing wrong with feeling a little guilt, folks. Keeps us humble.

[seabeyond]

110. absolutely. very basic. very simple. my kids at a young age could understand yet adults.....

seem to have such a challenge with a basic concept

[NickB79]

161. And some Christians still guilt women and Jewish people

IE, Eve gave Adam the forbidden fruit, and Humanity fell from grace.

IE, The Jews killed Jesus, so all Jews are guilty of his death.

In their minds, these were actual events that a subset of humanity should be held responsible for. That doesn't make it right.

[Laffy Kat]

175. I'll have to think about that.

As you said, "In their minds", and it's difficult to argue facts to myths. I think I'd rather err on compassion. But I appreciate challenges and I'll think about your point.

[Iliyah]

114. K & R

[William769]

134. Kick & recommended.

[davidn3600]

146. I've never raped a woman, nor have I ever sexually assaulted one...

...exactly what responsibility do I have to take?

You are blaming an entire gender because a few are a problem. That's like what George Zimmerman did with Trayvon. He blamed an entire race because a few broke into houses in his neighborhood. "These fucking punks always get away."

[Arcanetrance]

147. I'm glad you've never sexually assaulted or raped anyone neither have I

But contrary to what you say I'm not blaming and calling our entire gender rapists. All I'm saying is there is a rape culture and majority of rapists are male. We created this culture and we are the only ones that can put an end to it. Your trying to compare apple to oranges with this and the Trayvon Martin murder

[seabeyond]

148. he is another that consistency derails with these arguments. he knows. must have been an sos in mens

Forum.

Each one of these men work really hard claiming men are equally picked on. Just not worth it. Next he will put up an article a woman sexually assaulted a boy. Or tell us feminists are suppose to have empathy for the rapist cause he probably feels bad too. He has made that statement.

One has to wonder about the men that regularly dismiss the very real issue of men raping women. Can you imagine these men on jury hearing a rape case?

[davidn3600]

150. You really know how to twist things around...

The point I was making before was that the majority of rapists were abused themselves at some point in their life. And I stated that if these children received proper mental health resources for that abuse that it might prevent a future rape from happening.

So apparently you have twisted that into thinking I support rapists. That's idiotic.

I simply think that way because I have a background in psychology. That was some of my education. I want to know why someone would rape because that is not normal behavior. These people have violence and control problems. They are not OK in the head. They are psychologically damaged. Go to any prison and talk to a rapist. That is not a normal man! This cannot be solved by hanging a poster saying, "Don't rape women." And have PSA's telling boys to respect women. I'm sorry, but it simply isn't that simple.

[seabeyond]

151. What you said was feminists ought to feel sorry for the rapist cause they probably feel bad. No

Twisting that one

You have your reason and regardless of very valid explanations why people make the choices they do, telling feminists and women they SHOULD feel sorry for the rapist is too far. Especially as you were derailing the discussion about a very real victim of a crime. It was just another approach in dismissing the very real issue women and girl experience

[bettyellen]

162. It is simpler than you think. The more violent rapists are simply the subset that more often gets

reported and prosecuted. So the ones we have studies on - or "go to a prison and talk to" are not your more common rapists. Educate yourself. The most common rapists present as "normal" and are often part of the victim's circle.
And that's usually why they get away with it.

[raccoon]

178. +1000. nt

[bettyellen]

179. love how this thread is full of guys who *think* they know better- off the tops of their heads

they need to inform us all about a topic they have very little information about. They should be embarrassed.
Want to bet they scoff at male privilege- all the while displaying it right here. A little of this kind of "knowledge" IS a dangerous thing.

[TDale313]

149. K & R

[99Forever]

152. Same old shit.

Blame an entire gender for the bad acts of some of them.

I don't rape. I have never raped. I taught my son not to rape. To the best of my knowledge, he never has.

Keep your fucking guilt trip. I am responsible for my own actions, I am NOT "responsible" for the actions of others. Ever.

Period.

[Arcanetrance]

153. If you truly feel it's the same old shit why bother posting

You don't rape great neither do I. I'm not trying to guilt trip you or anyone else. All I'm asking is we take responsibility and educate other males. You say you taught your son not to rape great how about teaching him to educate his peers and speak up if he sees something. Whether you like it or not in society not only are we responsible for our own actions we are responsible for the actions of our society.

[99Forever]

154. This is a forum.

People post things. Other people respond, and not just those that agree with them.

I am not responsible for what others do, no matter how many times you repeat that horseshit. Don't like it? Sue me.

[Arcanetrance]

155. You're right this is a forum where people converse

Last edited Sun Sep 15, 2013, 03:20 PM - Edit history (1)

But the tone of your original post suggests you've read it and are sick of discussing it so again I ask why bother posting if you've had enough of the "same old shit". Personally I don't think it's horseshit for every member of society to take responsibility for the actions of said society in order to help shape a better one.

[99Forever]

164. You read wrong.

What I am sick of, is self-appointed moral crusaders pretending that they are "morally superior" authorities capable of assigning guilt to people who had NOTHING to do with whatever their cause of the day is.

I am no more "responsible" for some jerk being a rapist, simply because I have a penis, than you are for our armed forces torturing prisoners, simply because you are an American.

Utter, complete, unmitigated nonsense.

[Arcanetrance]

165. I'm neither morally superior nor a moral crusader

I've assigned no guilt to anyone based on having a penis. All i have pointed out is a majority of rapes are committed by men that's a fact not open for debate. Now that being the case we as men should "man up" as they say and educate about rape, about consent, about speaking up and putting an end to see no evil philosophy. We are one society and it is is up to all of us to fix its problems and yes i do feel guilty when someone is tortured in my name and the name of my country as we all should.

[Precisely]

166. ^^^^^^

[CrispyQ]

171. ...

"Personally I don't think it's horseshit for every member of society that take responsibility for the actions of said society in order to help shape a better one."


That is my internet gem of the day!!

[2theleft]

173. You are spot on.

I just made this "Personally I don't think it's horseshit for every member of society that take responsibility for the actions of said society in order to help shape a better one" my sig line.

Being new, with a low post count, I typically avoid replying/posting to these discussions because it seems you get labeled as "crazy feminist" if your a women, or worse if you are a man. I'm a woman, relatively new here, and I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciated your OP and subsequent replies.

[Arcanetrance]

174. As a guy i learned if my opinions make me unpopular with my fellow men so be it

Id rather be on the right side of things than popular

[Precisely]

156. That's not the point

It's a new way of looking at the cultural reality of rape, with more men challenging the aspects of culture that contribute to violence against women. Definitely NOT "Same old shit."

"Personally I don't think it's horseshit for every member of society that take responsibility for the actions of said society in order to help shape a better one."

[Silent3]

157. What exactly is that man's shadow supposed to be?

A devil? A satyr?

[Arcanetrance]

158. To be perfectly honest being visually impaired it gets hard to make out picture details

[Decoy of Fenris]

177. A minotaur, by the looks of it.

Symbolism-laden, dependant on what culture it's referring to. Minotaurs are often seen as aggressors, as seen in Dante's Inferno, presiding over the aspect of "Violence of men" in Hell itself. Given the message in the picture, it seems as though the intended creature was a satyr, though the shadow holds none of the aspects of a classical satyr (mainly the horns, hands and legs being off). Also, Dante's Minotaur had the body of a bull, rather than the other way around, I believe.

In either case, the head, horns, bodily structure and lack of even the hint of a tail imply the shadow is a Minotaur as opposed to a satyr. The symbolism is heavy-handed and uses a misunderstanding of basic myth to convey the point, but I think the message is implying that within every man, there is a guardian/protector/defender. The unspoken subtext of choosing a Minotaur as their animal of choice flies hilariously in the face of the message the picture is trying to convey, but eh. Not everyone in the advertising industry is particularly well-read.

[Precisely]

180. or that hidden within is a beast?

"Not everyone in the advertising industry is particularly well-read."