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kpete

(71,984 posts)
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 02:02 PM Sep 2013

The Amplituhedron: Newly Discovered Math Object Means "Space & Time May Be Illusions"

THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!

In other news today, the discovery of the amplituhedron, "a newly discovered mathematical object resembling a multifaceted jewel in higher dimensions," means that space and time may be illusions.


Artist’s rendering of the amplituhedron, a newly discovered mathematical object resembling a multifaceted jewel in higher dimensions. Encoded in its volume are the most basic features of reality that can be calculated — the probabilities of outcomes of particle interactions.


Locality is the notion that particles can interact only from adjoining positions in space and time. And unitarity holds that the probabilities of all possible outcomes of a quantum mechanical interaction must add up to one. The concepts are the central pillars of quantum field theory in its original form, but in certain situations involving gravity, both break down, suggesting neither is a fundamental aspect of nature.

In keeping with this idea, the new geometric approach to particle interactions removes locality and unitarity from its starting assumptions. The amplituhedron is not built out of space-time and probabilities; these properties merely arise as consequences of the jewel’s geometry. The usual picture of space and time, and particles moving around in them, is a construct.

“It’s a better formulation that makes you think about everything in a completely different way,” said David Skinner, a theoretical physicist at Cambridge University.

The amplituhedron itself does not describe gravity. But Arkani-Hamed and his collaborators think there might be a related geometric object that does. Its properties would make it clear why particles appear to exist, and why they appear to move in three dimensions of space and to change over time.

MORE:
https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20130917-a-jewel-at-the-heart-of-quantum-physics/

121 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Amplituhedron: Newly Discovered Math Object Means "Space & Time May Be Illusions" (Original Post) kpete Sep 2013 OP
Time and space are really very simple concepts. The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2013 #1
I really like the way you put that! cleanhippie Sep 2013 #17
Thank you for saying that. enlightenment Sep 2013 #29
My brain would have hurt matt819 Sep 2013 #32
Where this is concerned, I am sure of nothing! enlightenment Sep 2013 #35
But what if you "feel the world's pain"? arewenotdemo Sep 2013 #40
Then pretend to smoke a doobie Uncle Joe Sep 2013 #61
Actually, They Dont Exist, Our Minds Created The Illusion of space-time Skraxx Sep 2013 #69
False. Space-time is not merely a creation of the human mind... Gravitycollapse Sep 2013 #92
Read Julian Barbours The End of Time Skraxx Sep 2013 #108
That is so brilliant it took my breath away. lapislzi Sep 2013 #118
Here's the thing, though - Dash87 Sep 2013 #120
UNTIL I see this on Big Bang Theory, I will not believe it! benld74 Sep 2013 #2
I'm with you 'cause no matter what everybody says, I know you're not crazy pinboy3niner Sep 2013 #4
Amplituhedron... Paper... Scissors... Lizard... Spock. n/t Ian David Sep 2013 #7
Discovery SamKnause Sep 2013 #77
How soon can they put that episode together? Hekate Sep 2013 #89
WOW! MoonRiver Sep 2013 #3
Scattering Amplitudes and the Positive Grassmannian FarCenter Sep 2013 #22
and making it more complicated. dixiegrrrrl Sep 2013 #50
"End times" = End of time (n/t) 1000words Sep 2013 #5
Nonsense. nt Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2013 #36
If Space and Time do not exist, then it's all Obama's fault. n/t Ian David Sep 2013 #6
Maybe the Republicans can defund it mindwalker_i Sep 2013 #12
Gravity is Socialist. n/t Ian David Sep 2013 #49
Well, yeah...it keeps everyone down on the same level. nt msanthrope Sep 2013 #51
Hey, Punk! Gravity is NOT just tblue37 Sep 2013 #58
If time and space don't exist, from your perspective, it always was and always will be your fault. lumberjack_jeff Sep 2013 #25
Time is but an illusion. bmbmd Sep 2013 #26
There's always time for a game of Brockian Ultra-cricket (nt) muriel_volestrangler Sep 2013 #27
When philosophy and science intersect nadinbrzezinski Sep 2013 #8
I understand how a multi-dimensional geometric figure can redefine ... surrealAmerican Sep 2013 #9
Or you could believe that time is the expression of a dimension. MineralMan Sep 2013 #31
That was a neat little book. Had to read it in 9th grade Sci class. glowing Sep 2013 #42
Hey, MM-- tblue37 Sep 2013 #59
Cool! I used to read tons of SF. MineralMan Sep 2013 #72
Me, Too! Melissa G Sep 2013 #98
I start with this: Light does not experince time. hunter Sep 2013 #93
What do you mean light does not experience time? Is it sentient? Gravitycollapse Sep 2013 #96
It was a metaphor for illustrative purposes! What is meant about light is ... Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2013 #106
No, but if it were, the universe would be flat and no time would ever pass Recursion Sep 2013 #107
Yes! Like Reinmann said. Gravity is a function of geometry. Th1onein Sep 2013 #102
Our biggest problem with all of this is our MineralMan Sep 2013 #109
The mockery is a function of their ignorance and arrogance. Th1onein Sep 2013 #112
We're all just characters in a guy's dream NightWatcher Sep 2013 #10
And it *is* THAT guy. woo me with science Sep 2013 #14
Read Julian Barbour's "The End of Time" Skraxx Sep 2013 #11
Brilliant stuff 1000words Sep 2013 #53
Yup, Time and Space It Seems Are Mental Constructs Skraxx Sep 2013 #66
People should read the whole article instead of the "shocking" one liner in the OP title snooper2 Sep 2013 #13
article gave me brain pain La Lioness Priyanka Sep 2013 #54
I have never discovered a "math object." woo me with science Sep 2013 #15
The universe as a hologram BlueToTheBone Sep 2013 #16
So if the BIG hand is on the "six" and the LITTLE hand is on the "three", then..... brooklynite Sep 2013 #18
Then yer clock is busted. TygrBright Sep 2013 #52
Dang it TygrBright! Tien1985 Sep 2013 #80
I discovered this today. Skidmore Sep 2013 #19
I LOVE THIS THREAD MoonRiver Sep 2013 #20
Anything that removes time and space from the equations is a very good lead. hunter Sep 2013 #21
Ahhh....space and time are taken out of the computation.... Avalux Sep 2013 #23
So God is a rainbow crystal? I'm okay with that. randome Sep 2013 #24
:) nt Mojorabbit Sep 2013 #70
So, does this thread even exist, man? Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #28
Only in your mind. RC Sep 2013 #39
Whoa, that's, like totally meta, man. Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #65
If it's meta, will it be locked? socialist_n_TN Sep 2013 #68
No, but it will be stored in the NSA Utah Data Center IDemo Sep 2013 #73
DUzy! Th1onein Sep 2013 #103
You, you, you!! Fantastic Anarchist Sep 2013 #76
thanks obama NOW can we impeach him? leftyohiolib Sep 2013 #30
I had a hallucinatory experience where such a jewel continually unfolded out of my mind's eye KittyWampus Sep 2013 #33
What about American exceptionalism? colorado_ufo Sep 2013 #34
The fastest way to travel - if there is such a concept as "fast." colorado_ufo Sep 2013 #37
Check out how Bob Lazar fuels his car solarhydrocan Sep 2013 #60
H1? jmowreader Sep 2013 #101
why, it's basic theurgy MisterP Sep 2013 #81
Stay Calm. The object explains a toy theory (one of Yang-Mills) and nothing more yet. Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2013 #38
Fascinating article. NealK Sep 2013 #41
Wouldn't you know it.... Jeff In Milwaukee Sep 2013 #43
This sounds a lot like the "holographic universe" theory from a decade ago... SylviaD Sep 2013 #44
The holographic universe is still very much with us. See "quantum entanglement". Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2013 #62
I really wasn't trying to be a smartass... SylviaD Sep 2013 #67
This is better. It gets into the philosophy of mathematics. Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2013 #71
I can certainly see your point. SylviaD Sep 2013 #85
Did you just accuse someone of sexism because you're clueless about science? DisgustipatedinCA Sep 2013 #82
Excuse me, don't interrupt when adults are talking. n/t SylviaD Sep 2013 #83
227 posts, with at least two false accusations meant to hide ignorance. DisgustipatedinCA Sep 2013 #86
Ignore list. sibelian Sep 2013 #113
"Testable" is actually called "falsifiable" and it comes in many forms... Gravitycollapse Sep 2013 #94
Essay on Philosophy of Mathematics: Bernardo de La Paz Sep 2013 #115
Thank you, Bernardo. n/t SylviaD Sep 2013 #117
If you want someone to tell you life isn't absurd, go to church. If you want a philosopher... Gravitycollapse Sep 2013 #95
If you click on the link for the duality of string and quantum field theory in the article, Benton D Struckcheon Sep 2013 #111
My only thought is: I'd like a ring with that design! WinkyDink Sep 2013 #45
Sweet! another_liberal Sep 2013 #46
It looks like a tuning fork Eddie Haskell Sep 2013 #47
I'm always amazed when some concept like "a newly discovered mathematical object... KansDem Sep 2013 #48
I guess this means I never have to worry about being in the wrong place at the wrong time. bluedigger Sep 2013 #55
See? See? They WARNED us Obama would suspend term limits! jberryhill Sep 2013 #56
Sounds like some timey-wimey kinda thing. Guy Whitey Corngood Sep 2013 #57
Perhaps, like space and time, entanglement is also arising from geometry? Jeroen Sep 2013 #63
This is magic, I love it. Whisp Sep 2013 #64
I remember making one of those things with a 24th level mage. Rex Sep 2013 #74
This is the discoverer of the amplituhedron. randome Sep 2013 #75
Looks like he is wearing one. Rex Sep 2013 #78
This is your last chance. bvar22 Sep 2013 #79
The stars in the sky are just an illusion... kentuck Sep 2013 #87
So the master amplituhedron is kinda like Plato's Form of Forms, Benton D Struckcheon Sep 2013 #84
This has already been adopted into postulater Sep 2013 #88
I'd like to see the patent application on this! randome Sep 2013 #90
Gene Ray was right all along TransitJohn Sep 2013 #91
Whoa-ah. lonestarnot Sep 2013 #97
This is a toy model in physics. Which means it is a simplification for the purposes of calculation. Gravitycollapse Sep 2013 #99
It's geometry ... It's all that exists. Eddie Haskell Sep 2013 #119
False. It is a toy model, as I've said, and is a simple shortcut. Gravitycollapse Sep 2013 #121
Reminds me of dreaming, when time and space do not conform to normal consciousness, Coyotl Sep 2013 #100
"Math object" TroglodyteScholar Sep 2013 #104
Truth is stranger than Science Fiction Blue Owl Sep 2013 #105
Isn't that what brought Supergirl into conflict with Faye Dunaway? Orrex Sep 2013 #110
No, that was a casting agency foul-up. randome Sep 2013 #116
YouTube video of Nima Arkani-Hamed talking (& answering a few questions) about The Amplituhedron Petrushka Sep 2013 #114

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,674 posts)
1. Time and space are really very simple concepts.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 02:05 PM
Sep 2013

Time exists so everything doesn't happen at once.
Space exists so everything doesn't happen to you.

This other thing is making my brain hurt.

enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
29. Thank you for saying that.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 03:30 PM
Sep 2013

I tried to read that. I really did. Then I felt things breaking in my brain and had to stop.

I like your descriptions better.

matt819

(10,749 posts)
32. My brain would have hurt
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 03:57 PM
Sep 2013

if I was able to even try to understand what it's all about.

Amplituhedron? Are you sure this isn't something from The Onion?

Skraxx

(2,970 posts)
69. Actually, They Dont Exist, Our Minds Created The Illusion of space-time
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 07:01 PM
Sep 2013

They are a byproduct of consciousness, possibly only sentient consciousness.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
92. False. Space-time is not merely a creation of the human mind...
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 10:47 PM
Sep 2013

Both space and time must be accommodated in physics calculations. They are are fundamentally real as any other aspect of existence.

Dash87

(3,220 posts)
120. Here's the thing, though -
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 06:25 PM
Sep 2013

Is there infinite space in space? How is that possible?

Has time been around forever? Will it be around forever?

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
4. I'm with you 'cause no matter what everybody says, I know you're not crazy
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 02:12 PM
Sep 2013

I heard your mother had you tested.

Hekate

(90,645 posts)
89. How soon can they put that episode together?
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 09:57 PM
Sep 2013

The boys will be very, very excited.

Then Penny will whip their asses at D&D. Again.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
22. Scattering Amplitudes and the Positive Grassmannian
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 02:43 PM
Sep 2013
We establish a direct connection between scattering amplitudes in planar four-dimensional theories and a remarkable mathematical structure known as the positive Grassmannian. The central physical idea is to focus on on-shell diagrams as objects of fundamental importance to scattering amplitudes. We show that the all-loop integrand in N=4 SYM is naturally represented in this way. On-shell diagrams in this theory are intimately tied to a variety of mathematical objects, ranging from a new graphical representation of permutations to a beautiful stratification of the Grassmannian G(k,n) which generalizes the notion of a simplex in projective space. All physically important operations involving on-shell diagrams map to canonical operations on permutations; in particular, BCFW deformations correspond to adjacent transpositions. Each cell of the positive Grassmannian is naturally endowed with positive coordinates and an invariant measure which determines the on-shell function associated with the diagram. This understanding allows us to classify and compute all on-shell diagrams, and give a geometric understanding for all the non-trivial relations among them. Yangian invariance of scattering amplitudes is transparently represented by diffeomorphisms of G(k,n) which preserve the positive structure. Scattering amplitudes in (1+1)-dimensional integrable systems and the ABJM theory in (2+1) dimensions can both be understood as special cases of these ideas. On-shell diagrams in theories with less (or no) supersymmetry are associated with exactly the same structures in the Grassmannian, but with a measure deformed by a factor encoding ultraviolet singularities. The Grassmannian representation of on-shell processes also gives a new understanding of the all-loop integrand for scattering amplitudes, presenting all integrands in a novel dLog form which directly reflects the underlying positive structure.


http://arxiv.org/abs/1212.5605

Catching up?

Video of talk.

http://susy2013.ictp.it/video/05_Friday/2013_08_30_Arkani-Hamed_4-3.html

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
50. and making it more complicated.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 05:13 PM
Sep 2013

All those words just to say...we create our own reality.
or
everything is thought.

I prefer the Zen approach.

mindwalker_i

(4,407 posts)
12. Maybe the Republicans can defund it
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 02:25 PM
Sep 2013

They should defund gravity while they're at it, or at least vote a few times...

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
25. If time and space don't exist, from your perspective, it always was and always will be your fault.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 03:11 PM
Sep 2013

see post #1

Personally, I think time and space do exist, but I exist with in a bubble of causative exemption.

surrealAmerican

(11,360 posts)
9. I understand how a multi-dimensional geometric figure can redefine ...
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 02:21 PM
Sep 2013

... the notion of how space is structured, but I just don't understand how it would have an impact on the idea of time. You would have to already believe that time is an illusion for that.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
31. Or you could believe that time is the expression of a dimension.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 03:40 PM
Sep 2013

Try that on as a thought experiment.

The concept of multi-dimensional mathematical objects can be very confusing. We're OK with three dimensions, since that's what we relate to, but moving beyond that presents a lot of difficulties for most people.

There's an old book, very short, called "Flatland." Reading it is a great way to understand why we have trouble conceptualizing beyond three dimensions. You can read it online, complete with the original illustrations, at:

http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~banchoff/Flatland/

Another very interesting science fiction novel is Dragon's Egg, by Robert L. Forward. Written in 1980, it details life on the surface of a neutron star, and has implications about dimensionality, as well. See the Wikipedia article at the link. I remember reading this when it was first published, and it stimulated my thinking about multi-dimensional space, in a similar way that "Flatland" did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon's_Egg

tblue37

(65,328 posts)
59. Hey, MM--
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 05:34 PM
Sep 2013

You and I read the same stuff! I've never encountered anyone else who has read those books. When I refer to them I get puzzled stares.

hunter

(38,310 posts)
93. I start with this: Light does not experince time.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 10:51 PM
Sep 2013

Thus the "time dimension" fails.

Followed by the "space" dimensions.

For me it was the Quantum Eraser experiments that removed all doubt. "Time and space" are artifacts of our own biology.

The "Universe" is something else.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
96. What do you mean light does not experience time? Is it sentient?
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 11:10 PM
Sep 2013

Does the celery I'm eating experience time? What about the empty beer bottle on my nightstand?

Does light exist within the realm of time? Absolutely. A photon takes X amount of time to travel over Y distance and X is always greater than null when Y is greater than null.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,994 posts)
106. It was a metaphor for illustrative purposes! What is meant about light is ...
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 05:39 AM
Sep 2013

Saying "light does not experience time" is a metaphorical way of saying that time effectively stops aboard a photon. Since time in an internal frame of reference slows down as that frame approaches the speed of light, the limit case is exactly at the speed of light, and the slowing down reaches the limit of no passing of time.

While time passes in an external frame of reference during a photon's travel, it does not pass in the internal frame of reference.

Your literal attack on the metaphor betrays some confusion about frames of reference. Even if a photon were sentient, its sentience would not be located in the external frame of reference that it passes through.

Celery does degrade even in the time it takes to eat a stalk. Even an empty beer bottle is eroding and losing molecules of glass and label. Impermanence is the way of all things, except (we think) photons that have not hit anything and similarly a few other particles in that class such as neutrinos.

Taking metaphors too literally can squeeze out the poetry of existence.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
107. No, but if it were, the universe would be flat and no time would ever pass
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 06:43 AM
Sep 2013

From the perspective of a photon created at point A and destroyed at point B, there is no space between A or B, and no time passes between its creation and destruction.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
109. Our biggest problem with all of this is our
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 08:49 AM
Sep 2013

own physical existence. We experience the universe through our limitations, and find it very difficult to think about things from any other perspective. We see only a tiny slice of the electromagnetic spectrum, for example, and find it difficult to understand how things look to, say, insects, which view the world using a different slice than ours.

Getting rid of the concept of experiencing the universe in that limited way is what some scientists and mathematicians try to do. When they try to explain, though, most of us fail to understand even what they are talking about. Thus, we have people in this thread mocking those people for what they're doing. It's not an attractive trait, that mockery.

Th1onein

(8,514 posts)
112. The mockery is a function of their ignorance and arrogance.
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 11:32 AM
Sep 2013

But I don't care. Let them stew in their four dimensional juices.

This kind of thing is exciting as hell to me. What if all that we see as energy/forces is a function of geometry? Just think of the things out there that exist, but that we cannot perceive.

Skraxx

(2,970 posts)
66. Yup, Time and Space It Seems Are Mental Constructs
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 06:25 PM
Sep 2013

derived from our observation of the universe. They are perceptual templates our minds develop as a way to better perceive and reference reality, and they are so ingrained that it's difficult to comprehend that they are not actually "Real", but rather byproducts of how our minds process sensory information.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
13. People should read the whole article instead of the "shocking" one liner in the OP title
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 02:26 PM
Sep 2013

just FYI


TygrBright

(20,758 posts)
52. Then yer clock is busted.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 05:21 PM
Sep 2013

'cause when the big hand is on the "six" on a working clock, the little hand isn't on ANY number, it's between two numbers.

helpfully,
Bright

Tien1985

(920 posts)
80. Dang it TygrBright!
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 08:54 PM
Sep 2013

This article already broke some brians and here you are grinding the shards into dust!

hunter

(38,310 posts)
21. Anything that removes time and space from the equations is a very good lead.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 02:41 PM
Sep 2013

Thanks for posting this!

Avalux

(35,015 posts)
23. Ahhh....space and time are taken out of the computation....
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 02:44 PM
Sep 2013

removing those restrictions. The amplituhedron has a volume that equals the scattering amplitude.

From the article:

"Beyond making calculations easier or possibly leading the way to quantum gravity, the discovery of the amplituhedron could cause an even more profound shift, Arkani-Hamed said. That is, giving up space and time as fundamental constituents of nature and figuring out how the Big Bang and cosmological evolution of the universe arose out of pure geometry."

https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20130917-a-jewel-at-the-heart-of-quantum-physics/

This is signficant indeed - to be able to move beyond time and space and change how we look at everything.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
24. So God is a rainbow crystal? I'm okay with that.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 02:49 PM
Sep 2013

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
33. I had a hallucinatory experience where such a jewel continually unfolded out of my mind's eye
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 04:04 PM
Sep 2013

it was during a Robert Fripp concert. He was looping music and my eyes were closed.

Proof you don't need LSD to have very colorful and very beautiful things to happen in your head.

colorado_ufo

(5,733 posts)
34. What about American exceptionalism?
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 04:05 PM
Sep 2013

Do we HAVE to be part of this jewel thing-y? What if we WANT to exist in space and time? Can't we demand to be in space and time, if we want them?

colorado_ufo

(5,733 posts)
37. The fastest way to travel - if there is such a concept as "fast."
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 04:11 PM
Sep 2013

Bob Lazar (Google him) explained intergalactic travel that way: He said that alien craft do not travel through space (if it exists!); rather, they focus on a point and bend space, so that travel from point to point is virtually instantaneous. This is why the theory that other civilizations cannot visit us because they are "light years away" is completely false.

solarhydrocan

(551 posts)
60. Check out how Bob Lazar fuels his car
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 05:43 PM
Sep 2013


Former Area 51 employee Bob Lazar is interviewed by Visual Effects Supervisor Jon Farhat. In this video, they discuss what H1 (hydrogen) is, how it is created and it's potential in the automotive sector. In addition, Bob show us he has his own particle accelerator which he uses to create 6Li (lithium-6) H (hydride) for H1 storage.

6Li is used to store hydrogen safely and efficiently. It is also one of the key components in making a thermal-nuclear weapon, but by itself is not dangerous. Because of crony capitalism and ignorant politicians, the US government has banned 6Li and the buying and selling of it. However, the making of 6Li H yourself with your own particle accelerator IS NOT!

Bob uses solar panels to power an H1 generator which produces H1 from H2O (water). For the safe and efficient storage of the dangerous H1,..

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,994 posts)
38. Stay Calm. The object explains a toy theory (one of Yang-Mills) and nothing more yet.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 04:12 PM
Sep 2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplituhedron

explains the toy theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%3D4_super_Yang-Mills

(which does not correspond with reality) and not much more yet.


All the same, it is very interesting, and I thank the OP for posting about it. This bears watching for developments.

SylviaD

(721 posts)
44. This sounds a lot like the "holographic universe" theory from a decade ago...
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 04:47 PM
Sep 2013

...and it sounds like just as much hokum.

I really think mathematicians and cosmologists are too clever for their own good. Far from providing answers, these kinds of theories make the universe seem absurd and, in an absurd universe, science itself is invalidated.

We need some philosophers to come along and school these runaway mathematical theorists.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,994 posts)
62. The holographic universe is still very much with us. See "quantum entanglement".
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 06:03 PM
Sep 2013

Ok, we get it. If you don't understand it and it seems weird, you think it is hokum.

Far from providing answers, these kinds of theories make the universe seem absurd and, in an absurd universe, science itself is invalidated. We need some philosophers to come along and school these runaway mathematical theorists.


There is no logic and no credible philosophy that supports your statement that "in an absurd universe, science itself is invalidated." What seems absurd to you today will seem commonplace next decade.

SylviaD

(721 posts)
67. I really wasn't trying to be a smartass...
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 06:29 PM
Sep 2013

...sorry if it came across that way. Do you always attack like that, or just when you are talking to a woman?

*ahem* sorry, but I get a bit annoyed at aggressive responses to my posts. Let's start over.

I call these kind of scientific theories "hokum" because they aren't really even science.

Science requires proof. Mathematical noodling doesn't.

Can they prove any of this conjecture? No. Is there any *way* to prove it? Not really. This is a sort of pseudoscience. Mind you, it's not the kind of pseudoscience we are used to, like witch doctoring or Q Ray bracelets. This is pseudoscience on the other end of the spectrum. The math looks intriguing, it leads to all sorts of wild speculation, but in reality there is no way to support it or prove it with experiment and testing. You might as well bring God into it, since he/she/it is equally unproveable.

I have spoken to mathematicians who agree. It's possible to mathematically suppose all sorts of odd situations and configurations, but unless they are part of a testable theory, they're nothing more than intellectual noodling, as I said.

And I'm not claiming I'm intelligent enough to underdstand all the nuances of the mathematics. Far from it. But just as the atheist perhaps doesn't know every dogma a religion espouses, he knows enough to see the shape of what's being described, and recognize it as foolery.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,994 posts)
71. This is better. It gets into the philosophy of mathematics.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 07:58 PM
Sep 2013

The fundamental question of the philosophy of mathematics: Is mathematics invented or discovered. I tend to go with the latter view. I think that Mathematics is so fundamental that it permeates everything. ... that there are aspects of the universe that reflect or are described by any mathematical schema you can think of and they await our discovery.

However, ... sometimes we "invent" (discover) a mathematical technique and then discover that is provides a great new perspective that enables us to see things in "a new light", so to speak. This perspective might tie together some things that were previously thought unrelated or hard to reconcile or complicated to combine. It might also suggest 'corollaries' that suggest new physical theories or forces or particles and when we go looking for them, there they are.

For example, the algebraic underpinnings of quantum theory were discovered before the theory was created. Tensor calculus was developed before Einstein needed it.

Naturally, those advances in physics created the need for refinements in the math and for new mathematical techniques, which led to new physical advances ....

P.S. In my post I made no reference to your sex and did not consider it.

SylviaD

(721 posts)
85. I can certainly see your point.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 09:29 PM
Sep 2013

I'd just like to see a glimpse of the "need" before I go all in on accepting any purely mathematical models as fact. I'm a little uncomfortable with taking at face value purely theoretical math concepts without at least a glimmer of cosmological evidence for their reality.

But yes, you are right in that it's really a philosophy of mathematics debate.

P.S. That's good to know. I am a bit bristly about sexism, didn't mean to be accusatory.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
82. Did you just accuse someone of sexism because you're clueless about science?
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 09:23 PM
Sep 2013

Did you further characterize the conversation as an "attack"? I'd say you have lots to learn about both science and GD.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
86. 227 posts, with at least two false accusations meant to hide ignorance.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 09:31 PM
Sep 2013

Math just don't seem right to me....them mathers is too smart for their own good. Is that how adults are made in your locale?

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
94. "Testable" is actually called "falsifiable" and it comes in many forms...
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 10:54 PM
Sep 2013

All of which may be defined as "direct observation" but from there the methods can differ greatly.

You can disprove inductive arguments that are logically valid. All the while what is being discussed may or may not actually exist in the "observable" universe.

What's more, there are several fields of physics involving physical scales below which can be measured visually. They must be observed and hypothesized upon without the aid of sight. And they are just as legitimate as any other field of science.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,994 posts)
115. Essay on Philosophy of Mathematics:
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 03:35 PM
Sep 2013
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/derek-abbott/is-mathematics-invented-o_b_3895622.html?utm_hp_ref=science

It includes the phrase at the very end "The reasonable ineffectiveness of mathematics", which would be a rebuttal to "The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics" by Wigner, which gets into the Platonist / non-Platonist debate.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
95. If you want someone to tell you life isn't absurd, go to church. If you want a philosopher...
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 10:58 PM
Sep 2013

You better damn well anticipate the possibility that he or she is in partial or total agreement with the tenants of existentialism.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
111. If you click on the link for the duality of string and quantum field theory in the article,
Thu Sep 19, 2013, 09:12 AM
Sep 2013

you get to this:

Of all the strange forms of matter, cuprates — copper-containing metals that exhibit a property called high-temperature superconductivity — may be the strangest. In new research published online June 24 in the Journal of High Energy Physics, physicists at the University of California-Santa Barbara have explored the deeper phenomena that they claim are connected to the perplexing “surface-level” behavior of cuprates. By focusing their calculations on that underlying environment, the researchers derived a formula for the conductivity of cuprates that was previously known only from experiments.

“The amazing thing is you start with this theory and out you get the conductivity of these strange superconductors,” said Sachdev, who was not involved with the work.

The results bolster the evidence that this new way of looking at nature’s building blocks is real and that it is “strikingly literal,” said Jan Zaanen, a theoretical physicist at Leiden University in the Netherlands.


This is the article: https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20130701-signs-of-a-stranger-deeper-side-to-natures-building-blocks/

So it appears we have some very practical real-world implications going on in here.

Eddie Haskell

(1,628 posts)
47. It looks like a tuning fork
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 04:58 PM
Sep 2013

It probably receives all of our intentions and spits out the wave patterns that make up the particles of our future. We control everything ... Think positively, and treat others as you would want others to treat you.

KansDem

(28,498 posts)
48. I'm always amazed when some concept like "a newly discovered mathematical object...
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 04:59 PM
Sep 2013

...resembling a multifaceted jewel in higher dimensions, means that space and time may be illusions," can be depicted in a two-dimensional drawing.

It kind of hits me sideways...

Jeroen

(1,061 posts)
63. Perhaps, like space and time, entanglement is also arising from geometry?
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 06:07 PM
Sep 2013

That said, I read the article two times and still don't understand it fully

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
64. This is magic, I love it.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 06:12 PM
Sep 2013

I have not much of a clue what that article really means (I might have to read it about 27 more times), it's just when I read stuff like this it's what I think taking a good hit of a great drug would be (which I don't or did not ever do - yet).

The idea of Everything being Here Now All Over - things, space, time, is so fascinating to me. It's not linear, it's circular - if we knew how we can break through this illusion we have been trapped in for some reason.

wow. man.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
75. This is the discoverer of the amplituhedron.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 08:41 PM
Sep 2013


So take it all with a grain of salt.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.
[/center][/font][hr]

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
79. This is your last chance.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 08:49 PM
Sep 2013
After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill – the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill – you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember, all I'm offering is the truth – nothing more.

kentuck

(111,079 posts)
87. The stars in the sky are just an illusion...
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 09:36 PM
Sep 2013

Everyone sees them differently. However, by sheer power of suggestion, you can persuade someone that they can see Orion's Belt. In other words, we create our own illusions and share them with our friends. They become the new reality.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
84. So the master amplituhedron is kinda like Plato's Form of Forms,
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 09:25 PM
Sep 2013

from which you descend into the everyday world, which is a shadow of the world of Forms.
Which was Plato's way of dealing with Parmenides, who logically "proved" that time and space are an illusion, the world being in fact a single, indivisible solid object, a single atom. (Atom meaning "indivisible", you know.) Zeno's paradoxes were proofs that Parmenides was right.
The Greeks couldn't figure a way around his logic, so later philosophers tried coming up with ways to admit Parmenidean solids but account for the real world anyway. Thus Plato's Form of Forms, which was a big fat Parmenidean whole inside which we all lived.
Which brings us back to the amplituhedron, and to these guys saying that space and time are not just illusions, they're obstacles, it seems, to understanding how the Universe works.
Parmenides would have agreed. Plato probably would have too.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
90. I'd like to see the patent application on this!
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 10:35 PM
Sep 2013

I call dibs on the amplituhedron!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.
[/center][/font][hr]

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
99. This is a toy model in physics. Which means it is a simplification for the purposes of calculation.
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 11:30 PM
Sep 2013

The amplituhedron doesn't actually "exist" in the strictest sense of the word.

In the same way that astronomers describe the pull of gravity between two planets with a rubber-band visualization.

 

Coyotl

(15,262 posts)
100. Reminds me of dreaming, when time and space do not conform to normal consciousness,
Wed Sep 18, 2013, 11:36 PM
Sep 2013

when we entertain ourselves with all manner of the improbable, impossible, and imaginative scenarios, in seamless jumps of time and place, where the imagined seems real until you realize you're spinning your own reality.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
116. No, that was a casting agency foul-up.
Fri Sep 20, 2013, 03:40 PM
Sep 2013

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

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