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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Amplituhedron: Newly Discovered Math Object Means "Space & Time May Be Illusions"
THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
In other news today, the discovery of the amplituhedron, "a newly discovered mathematical object resembling a multifaceted jewel in higher dimensions," means that space and time may be illusions.
Artists rendering of the amplituhedron, a newly discovered mathematical object resembling a multifaceted jewel in higher dimensions. Encoded in its volume are the most basic features of reality that can be calculated the probabilities of outcomes of particle interactions.
Locality is the notion that particles can interact only from adjoining positions in space and time. And unitarity holds that the probabilities of all possible outcomes of a quantum mechanical interaction must add up to one. The concepts are the central pillars of quantum field theory in its original form, but in certain situations involving gravity, both break down, suggesting neither is a fundamental aspect of nature.
In keeping with this idea, the new geometric approach to particle interactions removes locality and unitarity from its starting assumptions. The amplituhedron is not built out of space-time and probabilities; these properties merely arise as consequences of the jewels geometry. The usual picture of space and time, and particles moving around in them, is a construct.
Its a better formulation that makes you think about everything in a completely different way, said David Skinner, a theoretical physicist at Cambridge University.
The amplituhedron itself does not describe gravity. But Arkani-Hamed and his collaborators think there might be a related geometric object that does. Its properties would make it clear why particles appear to exist, and why they appear to move in three dimensions of space and to change over time.
MORE:
https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20130917-a-jewel-at-the-heart-of-quantum-physics/
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,674 posts)Time exists so everything doesn't happen at once.
Space exists so everything doesn't happen to you.
This other thing is making my brain hurt.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Gonna use it.
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)I tried to read that. I really did. Then I felt things breaking in my brain and had to stop.
I like your descriptions better.
matt819
(10,749 posts)if I was able to even try to understand what it's all about.
Amplituhedron? Are you sure this isn't something from The Onion?
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)I never advanced past "tesseract"
arewenotdemo
(2,364 posts)Like someone I know intimated.
Uncle Joe
(58,349 posts)that makes it easier to pretend that you don't feel the pain anymore.
Skraxx
(2,970 posts)They are a byproduct of consciousness, possibly only sentient consciousness.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Both space and time must be accommodated in physics calculations. They are are fundamentally real as any other aspect of existence.
Skraxx
(2,970 posts)What you say is not necessarily true.
lapislzi
(5,762 posts)Mind blown.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)Is there infinite space in space? How is that possible?
Has time been around forever? Will it be around forever?
benld74
(9,904 posts)pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)I heard your mother had you tested.
Ian David
(69,059 posts)SamKnause
(13,091 posts)Bazinga !!!
Hekate
(90,645 posts)The boys will be very, very excited.
Then Penny will whip their asses at D&D. Again.
Science is catching up to many philosophical thought systems.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)http://arxiv.org/abs/1212.5605
Catching up?
Video of talk.
http://susy2013.ictp.it/video/05_Friday/2013_08_30_Arkani-Hamed_4-3.html
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)All those words just to say...we create our own reality.
or
everything is thought.
I prefer the Zen approach.
1000words
(7,051 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(48,994 posts)Ian David
(69,059 posts)mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)They should defund gravity while they're at it, or at least vote a few times...
Ian David
(69,059 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)tblue37
(65,328 posts)a good idea--it's the law!
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)see post #1
Personally, I think time and space do exist, but I exist with in a bubble of causative exemption.
bmbmd
(3,088 posts)Lunchtime doubly so.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,306 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)surrealAmerican
(11,360 posts)... the notion of how space is structured, but I just don't understand how it would have an impact on the idea of time. You would have to already believe that time is an illusion for that.
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)Try that on as a thought experiment.
The concept of multi-dimensional mathematical objects can be very confusing. We're OK with three dimensions, since that's what we relate to, but moving beyond that presents a lot of difficulties for most people.
There's an old book, very short, called "Flatland." Reading it is a great way to understand why we have trouble conceptualizing beyond three dimensions. You can read it online, complete with the original illustrations, at:
http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~banchoff/Flatland/
Another very interesting science fiction novel is Dragon's Egg, by Robert L. Forward. Written in 1980, it details life on the surface of a neutron star, and has implications about dimensionality, as well. See the Wikipedia article at the link. I remember reading this when it was first published, and it stimulated my thinking about multi-dimensional space, in a similar way that "Flatland" did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon's_Egg
glowing
(12,233 posts)tblue37
(65,328 posts)You and I read the same stuff! I've never encountered anyone else who has read those books. When I refer to them I get puzzled stares.
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)Melissa G
(10,170 posts)hunter
(38,310 posts)Thus the "time dimension" fails.
Followed by the "space" dimensions.
For me it was the Quantum Eraser experiments that removed all doubt. "Time and space" are artifacts of our own biology.
The "Universe" is something else.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Does the celery I'm eating experience time? What about the empty beer bottle on my nightstand?
Does light exist within the realm of time? Absolutely. A photon takes X amount of time to travel over Y distance and X is always greater than null when Y is greater than null.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,994 posts)Saying "light does not experience time" is a metaphorical way of saying that time effectively stops aboard a photon. Since time in an internal frame of reference slows down as that frame approaches the speed of light, the limit case is exactly at the speed of light, and the slowing down reaches the limit of no passing of time.
While time passes in an external frame of reference during a photon's travel, it does not pass in the internal frame of reference.
Your literal attack on the metaphor betrays some confusion about frames of reference. Even if a photon were sentient, its sentience would not be located in the external frame of reference that it passes through.
Celery does degrade even in the time it takes to eat a stalk. Even an empty beer bottle is eroding and losing molecules of glass and label. Impermanence is the way of all things, except (we think) photons that have not hit anything and similarly a few other particles in that class such as neutrinos.
Taking metaphors too literally can squeeze out the poetry of existence.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)From the perspective of a photon created at point A and destroyed at point B, there is no space between A or B, and no time passes between its creation and destruction.
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)So could be time. Very interesting.
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)own physical existence. We experience the universe through our limitations, and find it very difficult to think about things from any other perspective. We see only a tiny slice of the electromagnetic spectrum, for example, and find it difficult to understand how things look to, say, insects, which view the world using a different slice than ours.
Getting rid of the concept of experiencing the universe in that limited way is what some scientists and mathematicians try to do. When they try to explain, though, most of us fail to understand even what they are talking about. Thus, we have people in this thread mocking those people for what they're doing. It's not an attractive trait, that mockery.
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)But I don't care. Let them stew in their four dimensional juices.
This kind of thing is exciting as hell to me. What if all that we see as energy/forces is a function of geometry? Just think of the things out there that exist, but that we cannot perceive.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)I knew when I first saw Bob that he was someone special.
Skraxx
(2,970 posts)1000words
(7,051 posts)McTaggart's "The Unreality of Time," as well.
Skraxx
(2,970 posts)derived from our observation of the universe. They are perceptual templates our minds develop as a way to better perceive and reference reality, and they are so ingrained that it's difficult to comprehend that they are not actually "Real", but rather byproducts of how our minds process sensory information.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)just FYI
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)I will have to start looking down when I am walking around.
BlueToTheBone
(3,747 posts)no space no time
form is emptiness and emptiness is form
brooklynite
(94,502 posts)TygrBright
(20,758 posts)'cause when the big hand is on the "six" on a working clock, the little hand isn't on ANY number, it's between two numbers.
helpfully,
Bright
Tien1985
(920 posts)This article already broke some brians and here you are grinding the shards into dust!
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)just sayin'
hunter
(38,310 posts)Thanks for posting this!
Avalux
(35,015 posts)removing those restrictions. The amplituhedron has a volume that equals the scattering amplitude.
From the article:
"Beyond making calculations easier or possibly leading the way to quantum gravity, the discovery of the amplituhedron could cause an even more profound shift, Arkani-Hamed said. That is, giving up space and time as fundamental constituents of nature and figuring out how the Big Bang and cosmological evolution of the universe arose out of pure geometry."
https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20130917-a-jewel-at-the-heart-of-quantum-physics/
This is signficant indeed - to be able to move beyond time and space and change how we look at everything.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)Even this response is an illusion.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)IDemo
(16,926 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)sarcasm
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)it was during a Robert Fripp concert. He was looping music and my eyes were closed.
Proof you don't need LSD to have very colorful and very beautiful things to happen in your head.
colorado_ufo
(5,733 posts)Do we HAVE to be part of this jewel thing-y? What if we WANT to exist in space and time? Can't we demand to be in space and time, if we want them?
colorado_ufo
(5,733 posts)Bob Lazar (Google him) explained intergalactic travel that way: He said that alien craft do not travel through space (if it exists!); rather, they focus on a point and bend space, so that travel from point to point is virtually instantaneous. This is why the theory that other civilizations cannot visit us because they are "light years away" is completely false.
solarhydrocan
(551 posts)Former Area 51 employee Bob Lazar is interviewed by Visual Effects Supervisor Jon Farhat. In this video, they discuss what H1 (hydrogen) is, how it is created and it's potential in the automotive sector. In addition, Bob show us he has his own particle accelerator which he uses to create 6Li (lithium-6) H (hydride) for H1 storage.
6Li is used to store hydrogen safely and efficiently. It is also one of the key components in making a thermal-nuclear weapon, but by itself is not dangerous. Because of crony capitalism and ignorant politicians, the US government has banned 6Li and the buying and selling of it. However, the making of 6Li H yourself with your own particle accelerator IS NOT!
Bob uses solar panels to power an H1 generator which produces H1 from H2O (water). For the safe and efficient storage of the dangerous H1,..
jmowreader
(50,554 posts)MisterP
(23,730 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(48,994 posts)explains the toy theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%3D4_super_Yang-Mills
(which does not correspond with reality) and not much more yet.
All the same, it is very interesting, and I thank the OP for posting about it. This bears watching for developments.
NealK
(1,864 posts)Thanks for posting it kpete.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)I just washed my car.
SylviaD
(721 posts)...and it sounds like just as much hokum.
I really think mathematicians and cosmologists are too clever for their own good. Far from providing answers, these kinds of theories make the universe seem absurd and, in an absurd universe, science itself is invalidated.
We need some philosophers to come along and school these runaway mathematical theorists.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,994 posts)Ok, we get it. If you don't understand it and it seems weird, you think it is hokum.
There is no logic and no credible philosophy that supports your statement that "in an absurd universe, science itself is invalidated." What seems absurd to you today will seem commonplace next decade.
SylviaD
(721 posts)...sorry if it came across that way. Do you always attack like that, or just when you are talking to a woman?
*ahem* sorry, but I get a bit annoyed at aggressive responses to my posts. Let's start over.
I call these kind of scientific theories "hokum" because they aren't really even science.
Science requires proof. Mathematical noodling doesn't.
Can they prove any of this conjecture? No. Is there any *way* to prove it? Not really. This is a sort of pseudoscience. Mind you, it's not the kind of pseudoscience we are used to, like witch doctoring or Q Ray bracelets. This is pseudoscience on the other end of the spectrum. The math looks intriguing, it leads to all sorts of wild speculation, but in reality there is no way to support it or prove it with experiment and testing. You might as well bring God into it, since he/she/it is equally unproveable.
I have spoken to mathematicians who agree. It's possible to mathematically suppose all sorts of odd situations and configurations, but unless they are part of a testable theory, they're nothing more than intellectual noodling, as I said.
And I'm not claiming I'm intelligent enough to underdstand all the nuances of the mathematics. Far from it. But just as the atheist perhaps doesn't know every dogma a religion espouses, he knows enough to see the shape of what's being described, and recognize it as foolery.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,994 posts)The fundamental question of the philosophy of mathematics: Is mathematics invented or discovered. I tend to go with the latter view. I think that Mathematics is so fundamental that it permeates everything. ... that there are aspects of the universe that reflect or are described by any mathematical schema you can think of and they await our discovery.
However, ... sometimes we "invent" (discover) a mathematical technique and then discover that is provides a great new perspective that enables us to see things in "a new light", so to speak. This perspective might tie together some things that were previously thought unrelated or hard to reconcile or complicated to combine. It might also suggest 'corollaries' that suggest new physical theories or forces or particles and when we go looking for them, there they are.
For example, the algebraic underpinnings of quantum theory were discovered before the theory was created. Tensor calculus was developed before Einstein needed it.
Naturally, those advances in physics created the need for refinements in the math and for new mathematical techniques, which led to new physical advances ....
P.S. In my post I made no reference to your sex and did not consider it.
SylviaD
(721 posts)I'd just like to see a glimpse of the "need" before I go all in on accepting any purely mathematical models as fact. I'm a little uncomfortable with taking at face value purely theoretical math concepts without at least a glimmer of cosmological evidence for their reality.
But yes, you are right in that it's really a philosophy of mathematics debate.
P.S. That's good to know. I am a bit bristly about sexism, didn't mean to be accusatory.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Did you further characterize the conversation as an "attack"? I'd say you have lots to learn about both science and GD.
SylviaD
(721 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Math just don't seem right to me....them mathers is too smart for their own good. Is that how adults are made in your locale?
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Abrasive, arrogant, imaginary sexism...
Goodbye.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)All of which may be defined as "direct observation" but from there the methods can differ greatly.
You can disprove inductive arguments that are logically valid. All the while what is being discussed may or may not actually exist in the "observable" universe.
What's more, there are several fields of physics involving physical scales below which can be measured visually. They must be observed and hypothesized upon without the aid of sight. And they are just as legitimate as any other field of science.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,994 posts)It includes the phrase at the very end "The reasonable ineffectiveness of mathematics", which would be a rebuttal to "The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics" by Wigner, which gets into the Platonist / non-Platonist debate.
SylviaD
(721 posts)Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)You better damn well anticipate the possibility that he or she is in partial or total agreement with the tenants of existentialism.
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)you get to this:
The amazing thing is you start with this theory and out you get the conductivity of these strange superconductors, said Sachdev, who was not involved with the work.
The results bolster the evidence that this new way of looking at natures building blocks is real and that it is strikingly literal, said Jan Zaanen, a theoretical physicist at Leiden University in the Netherlands.
This is the article: https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20130701-signs-of-a-stranger-deeper-side-to-natures-building-blocks/
So it appears we have some very practical real-world implications going on in here.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)another_liberal
(8,821 posts)I'll be dreaming about that one for a few nights.
Eddie Haskell
(1,628 posts)It probably receives all of our intentions and spits out the wave patterns that make up the particles of our future. We control everything ... Think positively, and treat others as you would want others to treat you.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)...resembling a multifaceted jewel in higher dimensions, means that space and time may be illusions," can be depicted in a two-dimensional drawing.
It kind of hits me sideways...
bluedigger
(17,086 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,500 posts)Jeroen
(1,061 posts)That said, I read the article two times and still don't understand it fully
Whisp
(24,096 posts)I have not much of a clue what that article really means (I might have to read it about 27 more times), it's just when I read stuff like this it's what I think taking a good hit of a great drug would be (which I don't or did not ever do - yet).
The idea of Everything being Here Now All Over - things, space, time, is so fascinating to me. It's not linear, it's circular - if we knew how we can break through this illusion we have been trapped in for some reason.
wow. man.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Dam thing took forever.
randome
(34,845 posts)So take it all with a grain of salt.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
Rex
(65,616 posts)It must be reflecting his brain thoughts into mind bullets.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)kentuck
(111,079 posts)Everyone sees them differently. However, by sheer power of suggestion, you can persuade someone that they can see Orion's Belt. In other words, we create our own illusions and share them with our friends. They become the new reality.
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)from which you descend into the everyday world, which is a shadow of the world of Forms.
Which was Plato's way of dealing with Parmenides, who logically "proved" that time and space are an illusion, the world being in fact a single, indivisible solid object, a single atom. (Atom meaning "indivisible", you know.) Zeno's paradoxes were proofs that Parmenides was right.
The Greeks couldn't figure a way around his logic, so later philosophers tried coming up with ways to admit Parmenidean solids but account for the real world anyway. Thus Plato's Form of Forms, which was a big fat Parmenidean whole inside which we all lived.
Which brings us back to the amplituhedron, and to these guys saying that space and time are not just illusions, they're obstacles, it seems, to understanding how the Universe works.
Parmenides would have agreed. Plato probably would have too.
postulater
(5,075 posts)a new technology.
http://m.wimp.com/buildit/
randome
(34,845 posts)I call dibs on the amplituhedron!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
TransitJohn
(6,932 posts)lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)See nothing is ever as it appears. Told you.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)The amplituhedron doesn't actually "exist" in the strictest sense of the word.
In the same way that astronomers describe the pull of gravity between two planets with a rubber-band visualization.
Eddie Haskell
(1,628 posts)Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Coyotl
(15,262 posts)when we entertain ourselves with all manner of the improbable, impossible, and imaginative scenarios, in seamless jumps of time and place, where the imagined seems real until you realize you're spinning your own reality.
TroglodyteScholar
(5,477 posts)Heh.
Blue Owl
(50,349 posts)Orrex
(63,203 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]