OK...I'm glad we didn't strike Syria...but the fact remains...

[Ken Burch]

We had no business being in the Arab/Muslim world before that, and we have no business there now. That region belongs to the Arab/Muslim people themselves and no outsiders at all have any right to mess with anything there.

All we ever brought them was the misery of the Crusades.

[dkf]

1. I think if only they did have the bomb we would leave them alone. So ironic.

My priority is to protect them from us.

[joshcryer]

2. I wonder if the bomb is also able to stop civil war.

[dkf]

4. I doubt it. You can't use a nuke so close to yourself.

[joshcryer]

6. I wonder if we'd leave them alone if AQ was about to get the bomb.

ie, they were succeeding in the civil war and were nearly there to succeeding at getting the bomb.

(Basically I don't think the bomb has anything to do with it.)

[dkf]

7. Doubt it.

[Fumesucker]

11. If AQ had the bomb and there was a the slightest chance it could get to Washington

No, we wouldn't be nearly as belligerent toward them.

There's a reason people think Curtis LeMay was nuts, he wanted to attack a nuclear armed foe

[JI7]

3. so are you going to write congress and white house to oppose pressuring syria

on giving up the chemical weapons ?

[Ken Burch]

21. We just got an agreement with them on that. That issue's done with.

We don't have to stay in and act like nothing's changed(the way Bush used to do with Iran...which was bullshit because Iran DID change on the issue in question).

Brinksmanship is immoral and no longer even achieves anything. We can't just do the Cuban Missile Crisis over and over again, for God's sakes. That would be psychotic.

[msongs]

5. of course "they" invaded Europe and got as far as central France and Vienna :-) nt

[Ken Burch]

14. I think they mainly did that as they were driving us(Western "Christian" imperialists) back.

Last edited Sat Sep 21, 2013, 05:57 PM - Edit history (1)

And look at it this way...if the Ottoman had taken Vienna, we'd never have heard of THIS guy:



(and the victims of the Holocaust would never have been victims of anything, as far as that goes).

[Cali_Democrat]

8. Do you drive a car?

Do you wear clothes?
Do you live in a house or apartment?
Do you work in a building?
Do you sleep on a bed?
Do you use a toothbrush?
Do you floss?
Do you shave?
Do you eat food from the supermarket?
Do you eat out at restaurants?
Do you watch tv?


If you do any of these things, you are a consumer of crude oil and you're actually part of the "problem"

[Ken Burch]

13. I don't drive a car.

It's a stretch to tie all of the other things in that list to crude oil.

Are you saying that no one has any right to criticize U.S. involvement in the Middle East unless they're a naked, homeless, ungroomed starving pedestrian?

That's Republican propaganda, buddy.

[Cali_Democrat]

15. Is it really a stretch to tie all those things to crude oil? Let's take a look....

In many cases, clothes are made in factories using machines which use crude oil or even a fuel which is a derivative of crude oil. Clothes are then transported on ships, trucks, trains or planes. All use crude oil.

Houses are constructed by transporting material to the construction site, usually on trucks. Those use crude oil.

Buildings are also constructed by transporting material to the construction site, usually on trucks. Those trucks use crude oil. Buildings also need to be maintained regularly. Those maintenance workers get to the site on cars which use crude oil. Trash trucks that use crude oil take out the trash. etc...

Beds are made in factories which use crude oil. They are then transported and that also requires crude oil. The same thing with toothbrushes and other products.

Food is transported to supermarkets on trucks which use crude oil. Same thing with restaurant food.

I could literally go on and on but I think you get the point.

Bottom line, to avoid crude oil use in modern society you would have to live off the land in the middle of the woods, Ted Kaczynski style.

[Ken Burch]

16. Even if you're right about all of that, that still doesn't mean

that no Americans have any right to call for a U.S. withdrawal from the Arab/Muslim world. It doesn't mean that we're obligated to defend the status quo here.

All you've really pointed out is that we do a lot with oil. And the real implications of your argument are that we need to start a national project of doing all those things, or at least as many of them as possible, without the use of crude oil. If we did that once, we have the capacity to do so again.

Other than that, it's not your place to tell people to shut up(which I believe to have been your intent in posting that Bush/Cheney list of things tied to oil.

[Cali_Democrat]

17. Of course I'm right about all that. It's a fact.

BTW, I'm not telling you to shut up.

Let's be real...America is heavily involved in the affairs of the middle east because of crude oil and folks like you are heavy consumers of crude oil. Every American is a heavy consumer of crude oil and most aren't even aware.

Folks like you are the reason why America sticks its nose in the middle east. They're feeding your habit like crack dealer feeds a crack head's habit.

It is what it is.

[Ken Burch]

18. People like me are calling for withdrawal AND changing our lives to make it happen.

You don't know me. You aren't entitled to judge me. I do all that I can to reduce my petroleum footprint.

You can't just say that nobody can question the status quo unless they use no oil at all.

[Cali_Democrat]

19. If you eat, wear clothes, or use any products transported...

...you're a heavy consumer of crude oil whether you want to believe it or not.

Change will have to start from people like you, but most people don't want to give up their modern lifestyles and that's likely the case with you.

Again...it's like a crack head...it's really hard to take away the pipe from someone so addicted.

[Ken Burch]

20. Being an inadvertent crude oil consumer doesn't make you complicit in U.S. intervention

in the Arab/Muslim world, or take away your right to call for an end to said intervention.

If most people do the things you list above, it's simply because our leaders have structured our system to make not consuming petroleum all-but-impossible in this country.

Most of us have no alternative but to consume what is offered, if what is offered is essential to life. The system is the issue, not the individual.

The real reason for U.S. involvement in the Arab/Muslim world is the desire by our leaders to create a global empire, not consumer self-indulgence.

Putting it all on consumers is right-wing and self-defeating...it makes change impossible. Besides, since YOU haven't personally starved to death or died from exposure, you are on the same moral plane as the rest of us...so who the hell are you to be so sanctimonious?

And people like me ARE making all the personal changes we can, so give that meme a rest. Unless you are living naked in a cave and eating lichen you've scraped off the neighboring rock, you aren't entitled to judge in the smug, dismissive way that you do.

It's about the 1%...not the 99%.

[sibelian]

9. I don't often agree with you, Ken

But today I do.

[area51]

10. And also, the fact remains

that the Arab countries should be policing themselves instead of waiting for "daddy US" to come along and save them. WTF are the rich Arab countries like Saudi Arabia (which provided most of the baddies of 9/11) and Kuwait doing instead of working to fix the Syrian problem?

We have a medical emergency of 100,000 people dying per year here due to lack of health care, a crumbling infrastructure, and high unemployment, and have no business throwing soldiers/money at another war of choice.

[LuvNewcastle]

12. I agree. It's time we turned our attention inward.

When we get our problems fixed, we might be in a position to help others. There are people who want us focused on other countries all the time so we won't think about everything crumbling down around us. It takes socialism to fix domestic problems, and they're doing everything they can to avoid that. They consider it a waste to spend money on the people. Give the money to them so they can hoard it or gamble it away on Wall Street. It's pretty sick.

[Motown_Johnny]

22. We also redrew the map of that area, a couple of times.

After WWI and, to a lesser extent, after WWII.

A lot of what is going on there is our fault.

[Ken Burch]

23. You're right.

Ask any Mesopotamian or Transjordanian.

[seveneyes]

24. All we ever brought them was the misery of the Crusades?

My history is a bit rusty but I'm thinking the crusades were long before America was even in the planning stages.

[Ken Burch]

25. "We" as in "the West"...the area of the world our country's rulers insist on "leading"

And in the name of whose "Christian" heritage we still presume to act in the world.

Does that clarify my meaning for you?