Two concealed carry permit holders shoot and kill each other in Michigan

[G_j]

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/19/1239955/-Two-concealed-carry-permit-holders-shoot-and-kill-each-other-in-Michigan?detail=email


Two concealed carry permit holders shoot and kill each other in Michigan

by BruinKid Sep 19, 2013 8:07am PDT
(via LGF)

There's a story out of Michigan where two gun owners got involved in a case of road rage, and ended up shooting and killing each other.

Two drivers are dead after a road rage incident escalated into a shootout. The incident happened around 6:45p.m. Wednesday on M-66 near Steele Street.
Witnesses tell WZZM 13 a one driver was following another driver too closely. The first driver pulled into a car wash parking lot and the other driver followed them into the parking lot.

Witnesses say the driver of the following car fired shots, and the first driver returned fire. Both drivers were shot and killed. Authorities say both men, ages 43 and 56, had licenses to carry concealed weapons.

Haven't heard of something like this happening before.
8:13 AM PT: There's more information from the Detroit Free Press about the shooting. It looks like the tailgater was the one with road rage that caused everything. Looks like the driver in front was protecting his wife and mother who were in the car with him when they were shot at by the tailgater.

10:13 AM PT: OK, more information from MLive.

The mother-in-law of James Pullum, one of two men who died in an apparent road-rage fueled shootout Wednesday, said her daughter and Pullum's mother witnessed the double shooting.
The double shooting happened shortly before 7 p.m. at the Wonder Wand Car Wash at 426 S. Steele St.

Police said the 43-year-old Pullum and the other victim, 56-year-old Robert Taylor, both pulled their vehicles into the car wash after some type of road-rage incident moments earlier.

Both had permits to carry concealed weapons.

After a confrontation between the two men outside of the vehicles, they exchanged shots that ended up being fatal to both men.

All right, it looks like they got out of their cars to argue before they shot each other. That initial story made it seem like the tailgater had fired upon the family when the driver was still inside the car.
Yeah... if neither one has a gun, it probably ends with a broken nose instead of two funerals.

[Vinnie From Indy]

1. Well, at least they could clean up the crime scene fairly quickly!

Only cost about $1.75 without the undercoating to hose down the area.

[Kaleva]

2. Never confront. Even if armed. Always retreat if possible.

[Turbineguy]

27. What?

And give up my manhood? Next you'll be wanting me to touch the brake pedal to avoid an accident.

[ManiacJoe]

33. As soon as he suggests using the turn signals....

[tblue37]

76. Or stopping to ask for directions. nt

[gopiscrap]

28. agreed

[onehandle]

3. Thank you, Darwin. nt

[Hayduke Bomgarte]

5. N/T

[cantbeserious]

55. +1

eom

[1-Old-Man]

4. What's the concealed weapon permit got to do with it?

I don't see the relevance of the men each having a concealed weapon permit if they were both driving in their cars where the licenses are moot and both willing to pull things out and use them in plain public view.

[IveWornAHundredPants]

7. "Pull things out and use them in plain public view."

Just like you gun grabbers to make some kind of penis reference.

[TheCowsCameHome]

25. Well, they should have kept it in their pants, right?

[Kaleva]

8. It shows that that training, background checks and registration won't ...

prevent incidents like this from happening.

[SunSeeker]

64. No, it shows that the standards for concealed carry are pretty lax.

What's scary about concealed carry is that you have no warning that one of these murderous, unhinged hotheads is in your midst, so you don't have the freedom to avoid them. You are forced to be subjected to these cretins.

IMO, any civilian walking around with a gun has a screw loose and is dangerous.

[The Straight Story]

11. We need to ban CCW and medical pot cards:

Man with medical marijuana card growing and selling pot instead of using it for himself

http://www.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/content/20130919-two-charged-with-illegally-growing-selling-marijuana-in-little-compton.ece

Cause everyone with them does not use them as they promised ALL people are suspect. I plan on joining the fray to expose the evil underbelly of pot (guns are already covered) and other things in hopes that we can all get more government control in our lives and help stop that small minority.

[IveWornAHundredPants]

13. Agreed, ban medical pot cards

by making them redundant. Just legalize the stuff.

As for your analogy, well, what happens when pot is not used as promised? And what happens when a gun is not used as promised? Any difference there?

[The Straight Story]

17. both break a law others wanted

The idea is about principle, pure and simple.

Apply the same principle to various things. Judging the many based on the few is wrong (except when we say it is not). Denying people rights is wrong. Taking more power from the people and making more people criminals is wrong.

Pimping every story someone can find to paint an entire group bad to push an agenda is stereotyping and pushing hate/fear - over 50 million gun owners and when all you see is bad that is all people will think exist (but hey, fox news does it with muslims, so I guess us doing the same makes us just as good as them).

[IveWornAHundredPants]

22. But nobody is judging the pot guy

except maybe you, and an actual judge. Me, I think he's hit on a fairly elegant solution to the medical bills he's no doubt accruing.

As for the popgun people, I only presume to know one thing about them: that they've chosen to own little machines that make it easier to kill people. Sure, they also make it easier to put small holes in paper from a long distance, and they might be handy for opening beer bottles I suppose, and on some occasions they may actually be of help in a defensive situation (or, almost as likely, make such a situation much worse). But on balance, I think they make for a more rather than a less dangerous world, and so I believe that people who want to have a gun around are fundamentally wrongheaded.

[gollygee]

34. OK in one of these scenarios, two people are dead

In the other one, someone gets pot who shouldn't.

Do you see the difference?

[frylock]

47. Do you see the difference?

dood hasn't seen the difference in his false equivalency bullshit for several years running, despite being corrected time and again. why change now? other than that, he seems like a pretty OK guy.

[Warren Stupidity]

78. The day somebody is killed by pot plant you might have a point.

[DiverDave]

61. Are you that obtuse?

Cc holders are supposed to be responsible with a gun.
I think it is VERY relevant, as it seems that they, neither one, should have qualified.
So, FAIL, on you.

[hobbit709]

6. They each performed a community service and got a Darwin in the bargain.

[TheCowsCameHome]

9. If two CCW holders blow each other away,

which one is considered to be the hero?

edit: remove redundant word.

[1000words]

10. Eliphalet Remington? (n/t)

[joesdaughter]

66. Exactly n/t

[indepat]

12. Concealed carry is necessary because one never knows when the desire to shoot

someone might arise in the spree of the moment and one always needs to be ready just in case.

[etherealtruth]

56. That's it in a nut shell

they're all good guys with a gun .. until they're psychos with guns.

Funny how that works

[Koko Ware]

14. In other words, more morons out of the gene pool

and hopefully less guns will be in the pile.

All guns should be smelted down to building materials.

[Alkene]

77. Unfortunately, they were old enough to have already reproduced...

repeatedly, potentially transmitting defective genetic material to a damaging degree.

[Barack_America]

16. Yes, but whose penis was bigger?

Concealed carry, road rage, it's obvious penis size is the true issue here.

[MineralMan]

18. Well, they won't shoot anybody else, it seems.

Moron on Moron.

[Blue Idaho]

19. What do you do when the "good guy with a gun" turns out to be a "bad guy with a gun?" nt.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

20. Well, one of them was the good guy with the gun, and the other was the bad guy with the gun.

The question is, who was it?

[ManiacJoe]

39. That part is usually quite easy to figure out.

Unfortunately the linked article did not have as much details in it as other versions have had.

[Squinch]

21. Well. But they did it in a responsible way. Because, of course they were responsible gun owners.

[bvar22]

23. Evolution at work!!!

Unfortunately, at 43 and 56, these specimens have probably already reproduced.
Oh Well.

[tk2kewl]

24. the only way to stop a dumbass with a gun...

Is with another dumbass with gun.

Dumbasses.

[malaise]

26. How delish

Thank you Darwin!!!

[Blue Owl]

29. Wayne LaPierre is probably singing "At the car wash..."

n/t

[Hoyt]

30. At least these irresponsible, non-law-abiding gun lovers didn't kill any innocent people.

Seems to me, it might be time to rerun that stats the gun cultists site that say there are very few crimes by permit holders.

But, we'll sit on our rears another decade and have another 100 million guns to deal with when we come to our senses.

[Agnosticsherbet]

31. Just a modern day gunfight, ala the OK Corral.

Only this time the law (The Earp's) weren't trying to disarm those nice, kind, wonderful, second amendment defending Clanton's. Two men had guns, the means to kill, and they did what they chose to do.

Fortunately, no one else was hurt.

They should be nominated for the Darwin award.

[B Calm]

32. If everybody had a gun nobody would get shot, well maybe not!

[SunSeeker]

65. LOL nt

[Motown_Johnny]

35. So much for the NRA argument about armed citizens making things safer.

These are exactly the kind of people the NRA hold up as examples of "good guys with guns" who they expect to stop the bad guys with guns.

Brilliant.

[madinmaryland]

36. Which one was the good guy with a gun and which one was the bad guy with a gun...

Neither. Two idiots with guns.

[ManiacJoe]

41. Other versions of the story show the distinction.

[frylock]

48. but would the "good guy" even have pulled over if he was not carrying?

[ManiacJoe]

49. Probably, yes.

Staying on the road in a dangerous situation is just foolish.

Whether or not he did a good job at picking where to pull out of traffic is open to debate.

[frylock]

50. what?!

you know what's even more foolish? pulling over and confronting some crazy, road raging idiot!

[ManiacJoe]

51. Yes, that would be crazy.

However, that is not the question you asked nor the one I answered. Nor do all versions of the story in the OP say that is what happened.

[frylock]

54. but would the "good guy" even have pulled over if he was not carrying?

try again?

[ManiacJoe]

69. Again, yes.

Let the idiot go by. It is easier to keep eyes on the idiots when they are in front of you.

If the aggressor is lazy and just wants to be in front, then let them be in front.
If the aggressor has every intention of having a confrontation, the best the victim can do is pick where the confrontation will occur.

Since your multiple posts suggest an alternate course of action, what would you do (armed or not)?

[frylock]

73. i would've dropped a couple fuck bombs and continued driving..

just like I do when I deal with idiot drivers every day.

[brush]

79. Seems like the nut following too close . . .

. . . pulled off the road and followed the first guy who seemed to be trying to disengage.

What the hell does one do when a road rage idiot follows to escalate the incident.

Guess we all found out.

[frylock]

86. drive to the police station

[truebluegreen]

71. He didn't just pull over. He got out

and confronted the other guy.

[brush]

80. The other guy, the one tailgating, pulls over too

You know he wanted to escalate the situation by following the first guy.

No good was gonna come from that, which was his intention. He didn't think the guy he was tailgating was packing too.

And now he doesn't have a chance to think twice about it next time.

[truebluegreen]

82. I know. But when the other guy is escalating,

the best thing to do is leave, not confront. He could have driven to a police station. Did he have a cell phone? He could have called the police.

Before the advent of Stand Your Ground laws, this was the norm: the Duty to Retreat. Do EVERYTHING you can to avoid a confrontation. He didn't, and while he was apparently not the aggressor, he was partly responsible.

[exboyfil]

81. The guy following was obviously unhinged

I could see some scenarios in which the guy who pulled over was acting rationally.

1. He pulled over to get off the road from a dangerous driver - a good thing to do.
2. The tailgater followed him into the car wash parking lot - immediately escalating the situation.
3. If he pulls out and continues on (assuming he was not blocked in), the situation remains the same (he is sharing the road with a scary individual)
4. He exits the car to be in position to protect his family
5. Arguing is stupid but what do you do at this point? If you stay in the car and this unhinged driver approaches, your family is at risk. He is placing himself in front of his family.

The tailgater is obviously the aggressor.

I am not saying this is what happened, but it is a scenario which fits the facts. Maybe the driver who pulled over initiated the final confrontation by drawing first??? Anyway he was put in a bad situation by someone who was apparently unhinged (tailgating's bad - pulling in after an individual is worse - kind of like stalking and confronting a person at night).

[exboyfil]

84. At least one individual called 911

http://fox17online.com/2013/09/19/at-least-one-man-involved-in-road-rage-shooting-called-911/#axzz2fRFY8tLE

[truebluegreen]

88. Retreat. Call the police.

Obviously the guy following was deranged; get away from him.

Dollars to donuts he stuck around because he was armed and thought he could Handle It. Take care of the Bad Guy. Protect his Family.

He's not going to be protecting his family now, is he? Or ever again.

[Robb]

37. Reminder: these are ISOLATED INCIDENTS.

This almost never happens. And didn't pretty much happen just like this recently or anything.

[G_j]

40. right..

what are the chances??

[Duckhunter935]

42. They are

How many CCW permits are out there now? 4 out of ...........................

[Robb]

44. Four fewer.

[Duckhunter935]

45. That is a true statement

[TheCowsCameHome]

46. Very good, you passed the CCW test on the first try.

Now don't look at anyone cross-eyed, or...........

[demwing]

38. One dark day

In the middle of the night
two dead boys went out to fight.
Back to back they faced each other,
drew their swords and shot each other.
The deaf policeman heard the noise,
then went and killed those two dead boys.
If you don't think this story is true,
ask the blind man--he saw it too!

[otohara]

43. Responsible Until RAGE

over nothing important.

[99Forever]

52. Too bad ALL gun deaths aren't ..

... like this. Like chlorine in the gene pool.

[The Second Stone]

53. I'll be damned, the CCW laws did make the streets safer

and nobody innocent was killed. Now that's an isolated incident.

[Cryptoad]

57. Two Good Men with guns and a car! nt

[MrScorpio]

58. ...Because being armed is always best when it comes to resolving disagreements

Freedom!

[NRaleighLiberal]

59. ...truth is often stranger than fiction. Can't make stuff like this up!

[kestrel91316]

60. Dueling for Darwin. Win/win!

[Dawson Leery]

62. What is important is these two can never terrorize anyone else now.

[Snake Plissken]

63. Thinning out the herd with dueling Darwin Awards

[TheCowsCameHome]

67. Both expired on the premises. so it was declared a wash.

[PeaceNikki]

68. Similar incident here in Milwaukee in July. They survived, though.

http://fox6now.com/2013/07/12/two-men-accused-of-firing-shots-at-each-other-while-driving/

MILWAUKEE (WITI) — Two Milwaukee men are accused of engaging in a shootout of sorts while driving in the city and on the freeway at the end of June. One of those accused, and now charged in the case, is 27-year-old Eric Adamany. Adamany faces a charge of “first-degree recklessly endangering safety, use if a dangerous weapon.”

“On the freeway, they were shooting at me,” said Adamany. “I heard the bullets hit my grill up in the side and shoot out my passenger side window.”

According to the criminal complaint in this case, Adamany told officers he was parked near 14th and Burnham on the city’s south side shortly after midnight on June 26th, when another car, a Dodge, pulled up next to him. A passenger in the car, identified in the complaint as Roy Scott, allegedly stated, “what are you looking at white boy?” and then Scott “displayed a chrome handgun and fired once at the defendant’s car, striking the driver’s side mirror.”
...

The complaint indicates Adamany and Scott are each concealed carry permit holders. Both admitted to being “involved in a gunfight with the other person.”

[roamer65]

70. Thank goodness no innocent bystanders were hurt or killed.

Two idiots removed from the gene pool.

[truebluegreen]

72. Evolution in action.

[KinMd]

74. This what they mean when they talk about"Thinning the herd"?

[eridani]

75. They've got major competition

http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1996-07.html

Some men will got to extraordinary lengths to prove how macho they are. Frenchman Pierre Pumpille recently shunted a stationary car two feet by headbutting it. "Women thought I was a god," he explained from his hospital bed.

Deity or not, however, Pumpille is a veritable girl's blouse compared to Polish farmer Krystof Azninski, who staked a strong claim to being Europe's most macho man by cutting off his own head in 1995. Azninski, 30, had been drinking with friends when it was suggested they strip naked and play some "men's games". Initially they hit each other over the head with frozen turnips, but then one man upped the ante by seizing a chainsaw and cutting off the end of his foot. Not to be outdone, Azninski grabbed the saw and, shouting "Watch this then," he swung at his own head and chopped it off.

"It's funny," said one companion, "when he was young he put on his sister's underwear. But he died like a man."

[HughBeaumont]

83. (shrugs) What's the problem?

America's Reactionary Angry White Guy problem solving itself. Classic.

[doc03]

85. There was a report a couple weeks ago that in the county where I live

around 250 people were denied a concealed carry permits because of mental illness. In the four counties that border my county zero people were turned down for mental illness.

[raccoon]

87. You're saying this happened in a non-Southern state? Maybe the guys were travelling

Southerners?



I am saying this for the benefit of the South-bashers here on DU.

[struggle4progress]

89. How sad. Twitchy finger syndrome needlessly claims two more lives