In simple language, what is the TPP?

[fadedrose]

the Trans-Pacific Partnership? When does it start?

Aside from the bad stuff I've seen in DU, does it do anyone any good? Simple language please. Profanity is okay as long as it's not directed at me.....

[Brickbat]

1. NAFTA on steroids. More corporate fascism disguised as "free trade."

And so on.

[WilliamPitt]

2. Here

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/04/19/trans-pacific-partnership-strikes-a-blow-against-growth-and-sustainable-development

[dipsydoodle]

22. The answer to the first question in your link says it all.

[demwing]

33. Honestly, what's the likelihood that TPP can be stopped?

On the surface, it looks like 0%.

What overnment, having already declared itself in favor of TPP, would give a damn about what their citizens want?

[Laelth]

51. Ours does not, as it has shown repeatedly.

The American people opposed bailing out failed banks in 2008-09. Did that matter? No, and both parties were complicit.

-Laelth

[fadedrose]

37. The author, David Brodwin has listed many bad features

of the agreement, and it's worse than what I thought it was. He seems like an okay guy.

It seems to be a bill to help business dismiss governments' rulings and laws to suit their earnings, profit and standing. And this includes governments of all the countries involved. They can be sued for causing lower profits. Banks are favored over credit unions...

BUT, what is there good about the plan? Must be something. Business has all the cards now, does it need more?

[MineralMan]

3. It's an international trade agreement that

is currently under consideration. It's also a pet subject for some DUers.

I don't know what's in it. They don't know what's in it. But it's supported by the Obama administration, and that's enough.

That's as simple as I can make it, really.

[trumad]

4. "I don't know what's in it"

Possibly one of the most stunning posts I've ever read on DU.

Dude--- you make Sheep look good.

[MineralMan]

7. If sheep are starting to look good,

it's time to take a break, I think.

I'm not that interested in trade agreements, frankly. And this one is hard to pin down, exactly. I understand NAFTA pretty well. It has lots of flaws, like most trade agreements. It also has some benefits.

This one will have both, as well. I'm going to leave trade agreements to people who are involved with them directly. They're not one of my interests. I don't do international business so far, although I used to on a small scale. It's just not something I'm that interested in. President Obama appears to be supporting this one. Before it is agreed to, I'll look into it a bit, but I expect to find a mix of flaws and benefits in it, just as usual.

[a la izquierda]

11. Clearly you're not Mexican...nt

[MineralMan]

48. No soy carnero, de veras.

I always loved that a ram is el carnero. Meat-maker, when directly translated.

But, you're right, I'm not Mexican. I do love to eat mutton, though, when I can find it, which is rarely. Lamb is just not the same.

[trumad]

15. .

gob·ble·dy·gook
ˈgäbəldēˌgo͝ok,-ˌgo͞ok/
nouninformal
1.
language that is meaningless or is made unintelligible by excessive use of abstruse technical terms; nonsense.

[cali]

26. What do you see as the benefits? What do you see as the flaws?

please list both.

[RC]

29. +1000

Not knowing what's in it should be enough to make this trade agreement suspect, no matter who is for it. The fact that Obama is for it and the multinational corporations are for it and it was hammered out in secret behind locked doors, without congressional oversight and Congress does not know what is in it and will not know, until it is introduced for Congress to vote on it...
But Obama is for it is enough for some people to think this is A-OK? Where have these people been of the last 5 years or so? For the rest of us, the very fact that Obama is for it, is enough to make whatever suspect.

[trumad]

34. Amazing eh?

Big corp gets to view the whole thing---we --the little people only get to see leaked parts of the bill.

This is coming from an administration that promised full transparency---this is coming from an adminstration that employs, Summers, Geithner, etc.

Oh--- but some here who have no clue about NAFTA, TPP, are just fine with letting this admin decide for them.

Lazy fucking shit in mho.

[LondonReign2]

5. And why doesn't anyone know what's in it?

[Jefferson23]

8. I'm not sure if he is reluctant to explain that the administration is not planning

to be transparent on this issue.

[MineralMan]

10. It's very complex, and not all of it has been revealed completely.

That's why. There's lots of speculation about it, and some information. It's hard to tell the difference between the two.

I don't pay attention to speculation, and I can't access the details of the agreement. So, I don't know what's in it. If someone says they do, check to see if the content has been released. As far as I know, it hasn't even been finalized, though, so...

[LondonReign2]

24. There's almost no information, actually

Why do you think it is being negotiated in secret?

[cali]

31. there is some very revealing information

and MM is wrong. It is not that hard to discern what is speculation and what has been revealed.

[LondonReign2]

35. Yes, I'm simply trying to understand

why MM is perfectly content with this being negoiated in secret, feels it shoudl be ignored until it is finalized, and going so far as to dismiss it as a "pet" concern.

[Whisp]

56. it could be Syrian like...

omg Obama is going to bomb the shit out of Syria! I know it! I feel it in my bones! I have it on good authority that Granny Clampett's beetle said so!!! Balls' dangling in vices!!!!!
no hope, worse than bush, warmongering.... bla bla bla

Good bet this is a bit like That....

[Jefferson23]

38. I have asked my elected reps to demand transparency from Obama, I suggest you do the same.

snip* But those engaging in these trade negotiations should be forewarned: the US is committed to a lack of transparency.

The Free-Trade Charade
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/transatlantic-and-transpacific-free-trade-trouble-by-joseph-e--stiglitz

[leftstreet]

6. 'a pet subject for some DUers'

Nice

[cali]

9. actually, we do know some of what's in it.

We know for sure that it includes the investor-state tribunal dispute system that can bypass national and municipal laws.

We know who the lead negotiators are. We know their backgrounds and track records.

We know certain provisions regarding internet freedom and copyright.

We know that corporate representatives are serving as advisers to the USTR.

Just because you know so little, doesn't mean everyone is in that boat.

[MineralMan]

14. Yes, and we knew that Social Security was going to be cut, too.

Get back to me when that happens, OK?

[trumad]

18. Now you're strawmanning it.

Cali just told you what we do know.

[MineralMan]

25. No. She told me what she thinks is in it.

So far, there is no actual content to examine.

It will be a mix of good and bad stuff, no doubt. As I said, international trade agreements aren't high on my list of priority interests right now. When some final wording is available, I'll look at it. For now, it's not one of the topics I'm discussing.

And, I'm not "strawmanning" at all. We've been "informed" about other dire consequences in the past that haven't come to pass.

I don't do speculation. But you're more than welcome to, Trumad.

Now, I'm out of this thread. Today, I'm thinking about mass shootings in two cities, and the difference in how DU looks at them.

[trumad]

32. OH ok---

We got you. TPP/Nafta---not your cup of tea.

Sheesh

[Puglover]

53. LOL I just love the

"now I'm outta this thread" schtick. Nice to know some things on DU never change.

[cali]

39. I just gave you a link to the linked draft investment chapter

will it be tweaked? Maybe. Is it still a valuable glimpse into the TPP? Of course.

YOU are the one speculating, mineral man.

If you don't do speculating as you claim, just what the hell is this, mineral man?

"It will be a mix of good and bad stuff, no doubt. "

Why that's YOU speculating on the TPP.

[Vincardog]

43. OK MM, you choose to be happily ignorant and trust our President. Do you mind if the rest of us

inform ourselves to the best of our abilities and do everything in our powers to stop this Power grab by the moneyed elite?

The leaks have shown that this "trade agreement" has virtually NOTHING to do with trade and everything to do with
seceding control of our countries laws to the moneyed elite.

The TTP does REQUIRE countries to modify their legally passed LAWS
if those laws impede corporate profits in any way.

The TTP allows to arbitration of disputes by judges chosen from the Corporate defenders ranks.

It is noxious undemocratic and anti-everything that gives PEOPLE a voice in the decisions about their own health, welfare and lives.

If you are willing to go happily down the path that the TTP leads good by and God bless, but please don't waste our time holding
your ignorance up as a shield.

[cali]

36. oh for the love of reason

first of all that's just intellectually bankrupt. I didn't know that. I never fucking said that, mineral guy.

I listed the known facts and YOU don't want to deal with it. Here, mineral.

Leaked draft investment chapter:

http://www.citizenstrade.org/ctc/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/tppinvestment.pdf

I've actually read it. You, mineral, are the one who doesn't know a thing and you're loftily acting as if you did.

Ignorance tarted up as superciliousness.

[fadedrose]

42. Thanks, I'm reading this link

to: http://www.citizenstrade.org/ctc/ to get more background

[MineralMan]

19. Actually, it's still being formulated and designed.

So, as I said, we don't know what's in it, because it's still under negotiation.

[LondonReign2]

28. So AFTER its put in place is the time to to be concerned about it?

[MineralMan]

30. No. After the final language exists is the time to be

actively concerned. And I will be.

[cali]

40. You won't have time. It takes a lot of research

and one can do quite a bit of that research right now. How? Examine leaked drafts. Read up on past FTAs. Read analysis and articles about what is being revealed. Familiarize yourself with the players from the USTR.

[cali]

45. you're just being silly as all get out now.

we can learn a great deal. It is widely acknowledged that is very similar to all other FTAs. No one denies that. No one.

We know it includes the investment-state tribunal system. Period. We have the draft.

YOU don't want to know. You're reveling in your ignorance and claiming we shouldn't object to what we do know.l

I'm done with your silly, petty and childish games. Go chew on your red herrings all by your little self.

[truebrit71]

16. Hmm. Strange. Post #2 , right above yours seems to have alot of info about "what's in it"...

....you might try giving it a read.

That's as simple as I can make it, really.

[snagglepuss]

20. Of the 26 chapters currently being negotiated in the TPP, only two have to do with trade.

[WilliamPitt]

49. Wow.

[krispos42]

12. SOPA and PIPA, but for a big chunk of the world.

Throw in some NAFTA and GATT, spice it up with binding arbitration that overrides national law, and we've got a delicious gift to transnational corporations.

Senator Wyden asserted:
"The majority of Congress is being kept in the dark as to the substance of the TPP negotiations, while representatives of U.S. corporations—like Halliburton, Chevron, PHRMA, Comcast, and the Motion Picture Association of America—are being consulted and made privy to details of the agreement. [...] More than two months after receiving the proper security credentials, my staff is still barred from viewing the details of the proposals that USTR is advancing. We hear that the process by which TPP is being negotiated has been a model of transparency. I disagree with that statement."

The mere fact that it's being done in near-total secrecy for years on end should be enough of a warning for you.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership

[JaneyVee]

13. It is still being negotiated. And it will make some people happy and other people sad.

Same as everything else.

[cali]

46. oh my, you are demonstrating your vast wealth of insipidity.

How charming.

[JaneyVee]

50. Meh, I was at work during an insipid moment.

[leftstreet]

17. It gives corporations the right to sue governments

TPP Investment Map: New Privileges for 30,000 Companies?

Under previous presidential administrations, the United States signed a number of free trade agreements (FTAs) that grant foreign corporations extraordinary rights and protections beyond the rights of domestic companies. A little-known FTA mechanism called “investor-state” enforcement allows foreign firms to skirt domestic court systems and directly sue governments for cash damages (our tax dollars) over alleged violations of their new rights before UN and World Bank tribunals staffed by private sector attorneys who rotate between serving as "judges" and bringing cases for corporations. Using this extreme system, corporations have sued the U.S. government in foreign trade tribunals for enacting laws or regulations that “interfered” with the corporations’ expected profits. This “interference” has included essential environmental regulations, health laws, and domestic court decisions. These cases are not just threats to domestic U.S. policies. U.S. corporations have also used FTAs to attack public interest laws abroad.

If a corporation wins its private enforcement case, the taxpayers of the “losing” country must foot the bill. Over $380 million in compensation has already been paid out to corporations in a series of investor-state cases under U.S. FTAs. Of the nearly $14 billion in the 18 pending claims under U.S. FTAs, all relate to environmental, energy, public health, land use and transportation policies – not traditional trade issues.

The Obama administration is currently negotiating a sweeping new FTA called the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) with Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, and Vietnam -- the first FTA negotiated by the Obama administration. Despite Obama’s many campaign promises to scale down investor-state enforcement in trade agreements, the leaked investment chapter of the TPP reveals that the Obama administration intends to expand even further the extreme investor-state model of past FTAs. If passed, the TPP would grant thousands of corporations these extraordinary rights to sue governments over public interest policies for taxpayer compensation.

http://www.citizen.org/Page.aspx?pid=4083

[snagglepuss]

21. Of the 26 chapters currently being negotiated in the TPP, only two have to do with trade.

The other 24 deal with issues as diverse as how a government regulates corporate activity, what corporations can and cannot do, how long pharmaceutical patents or copyright terms should be, how the Internet is governed, the sharing of personal information across borders, banking and taxation rules, and when a company or investor should be compensated when environmental or public health policies interfere with profits.

[trumad]

27. Funny how big corps can see it all...

but us little guys no privy.

[snagglepuss]

44. True. But in the US at least the members of Congress will have access to the agreement.

Not so in Canada where members of Parliament are being shut out.

[cali]

23. It's a so-called "FTA" Free Trade Agreement

Yes, it does some people good. It does those in the board rooms of Corporations good. It does large farmers good.

It is, from what we know, patterned after other U.S.-FTAs.

FTAs eliminate (most) tariffs and quotas. All the FTAs in existence provide for substantial investor rights, including the investor-state tribunal system which enables investing persons or entities to challenge existing national and/or municipal laws that they claim could damage future profits.

[msongs]

41. your president practicing more change and hope behind your backs and in secret. have a nice day nt

[TheKentuckian]

47. By the by, ever notice that those most vexed by "speculation" are the most tolerant of secrecy?

Odd crowd, always calling for waiting for ALL the facts but full throated in their defense of keeping all the facts from coming out.

ALWAYS.

It is actually just a stalling tactic, run out the clock and then the audacity to blame the people for not being active enough.

[DJ13]

52. A shaft up the nation's behind

...... without the lube.

[Democracyinkind]

54. Erecting a transnational government for and by corporations, immune from litigation and regulation.

I do not see how anyone could deny this. It is not about free trade per se but about the institutional framework in which that free trade shall take place. I encourage anyone to read the leaked docs.

[raouldukelives]

55. Aside from it being something every investor in Wall St is paying for.

As they have paid in & helped pay off so many other great ideas over the years. I don't really know.
I hope its all good stuff. I always do. Somehow, I'm always sadly mistaken.