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dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 05:24 AM Sep 2013

American gun use is out of control. Shouldn't the world intervene ?

Last week, Starbucks asked its American customers to please not bring their guns into the coffee shop. This is part of the company's concern about customer safety and follows a ban in the summer on smoking within 25 feet of a coffee shop entrance and an earlier ruling about scalding hot coffee. After the celebrated Liebeck v McDonald's case in 1994, involving a woman who suffered third-degree burns to her thighs, Starbucks complies with the Specialty Coffee Association of America's recommendation that drinks should be served at a maximum temperature of 82C.

Although it was brave of Howard Schultz, the company's chief executive, to go even this far in a country where people are better armed and only slightly less nervy than rebel fighters in Syria, we should note that dealing with the risks of scalding and secondary smoke came well before addressing the problem of people who go armed to buy a latte. There can be no weirder order of priorities on this planet.

That's America, we say, as news of the latest massacre breaks – last week it was the slaughter of 12 people by Aaron Alexis at Washington DC's navy yard – and move on. But what if we no longer thought of this as just a problem for America and, instead, viewed it as an international humanitarian crisis – a quasi civil war, if you like, that calls for outside intervention? As citizens of the world, perhaps we should demand an end to the unimaginable suffering of victims and their families – the maiming and killing of children – just as America does in every new civil conflict around the globe.

The annual toll from firearms in the US is running at 32,000 deaths and climbing, even though the general crime rate is on a downward path (it is 40% lower than in 1980). If this perennial slaughter doesn't qualify for intercession by the UN and all relevant NGOs, it is hard to know what does.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/21/american-gun-out-control-porter

"One more figure. There have been fewer than 20 terror-related deaths on American soil since 9/11 and about 364,000 deaths caused by privately owned firearms. If any European nation had such a record and persisted in addressing only the first figure, while ignoring the second, you can bet your last pound that the State Department would be warning against travel to that country and no American would set foot in it without body armour."

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American gun use is out of control. Shouldn't the world intervene ? (Original Post) dipsydoodle Sep 2013 OP
ok, this is silly. there is no way for NGOs or the UN to intervene cali Sep 2013 #1
Very good point, and its not just Vermont 7962 Sep 2013 #6
1st get the guns under control thru severe regulation then we can talk all about leftyohiolib Sep 2013 #9
The problems involve more than just guns. Igel Sep 2013 #40
the greatest danger he'll face of being shot is wandering around in the woods without blaze orange leftyohiolib Sep 2013 #7
and that's rare. anyway it's deer hunters not duck hunters cali Sep 2013 #13
i was wondering if that happened alot the post made it sound as if one were taking leftyohiolib Sep 2013 #72
it happens. the last one was 2011. Particularly tragic. A guy killed his friend cali Sep 2013 #74
You have some strange notions regarding hunting. Eleanors38 Sep 2013 #29
Deer hunters NutmegYankee Sep 2013 #49
Connecticut used to be a very safe place in terms of gun deaths, too. Till it wasn't. Squinch Sep 2013 #71
Connecticut has cities. It has huge disparites in wealth cali Sep 2013 #78
That's nice. Vermont will be safe. Till it isn't. Squinch Sep 2013 #79
I can't belive how many people missed that it was a parody! While the USA asks the UN to pam4water Sep 2013 #76
cue DU's resident gun humpers to tell us why America is just fine Skittles Sep 2013 #2
Getting out front pintobean Sep 2013 #11
Demands from Gun Activists to stay classy. Paladin Sep 2013 #12
I'm a "Gun Activist"? pintobean Sep 2013 #14
You're welcome. (nt) Paladin Sep 2013 #16
You can be both a Gun humper... and a gun activist... Decaffeinated Sep 2013 #21
So, now you go after a DU member's wife? Nice. Eleanors38 Sep 2013 #36
I think it was just a dumb joke pintobean Sep 2013 #37
That's because we're better. Igel Sep 2013 #43
it kills me Skittles Sep 2013 #65
It adds nothing to the debate pintobean Sep 2013 #67
they want NOTHING changed Skittles Sep 2013 #69
You didn't insult me pintobean Sep 2013 #70
They never fail etherealtruth Sep 2013 #52
aw and they cannot STAND to be "insulted" Skittles Sep 2013 #66
Agreed. I've got plenty of butter ready. Initech Sep 2013 #60
that one politician in australia called for a boycott JI7 Sep 2013 #3
The article makes some very good points. silverweb Sep 2013 #4
We are only shooting each other with our guns so it is confined to America for the time being. FUMCSDLCBDPOS Sep 2013 #5
WTH does MCS stand for in your username, please? NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #45
I'D ARGUE THAT THOSE FACING MASS SLAUGHTER BY AR15 ETC SEE THIS A TERRORIST ACT drynberg Sep 2013 #8
mass slaughter with a shotgun is also mwrguy Sep 2013 #28
I would have to agree n/t etherealtruth Sep 2013 #68
perhaps a series of limited targeted cruise missile attacks on munition manufactures would be Douglas Carpenter Sep 2013 #10
rofl backwoodsbob Sep 2013 #15
Guardian...Onion...not much difference,really. Lizzie Poppet Sep 2013 #24
Close. It was the Gordian. Eleanors38 Sep 2013 #30
Those of us who don't produce guns but can't stop them malaise Sep 2013 #17
This piece is an NRA's wet dream. aikoaiko Sep 2013 #18
The NRA does in fact pay royalties to anti-gun cartoonists, and this screed Eleanors38 Sep 2013 #32
Wonder if the author can place those 32k deaths in any category besides ileus Sep 2013 #19
Oh, but they were "caused" by privately-owned firearms! Lizzie Poppet Sep 2013 #23
And of course we all know the majority falls into the category of suicide. rl6214 Sep 2013 #50
The NRA must have ghost written this hack89 Sep 2013 #20
c. 20.000 suicides are part of a "quasi civil war?" Lizzie Poppet Sep 2013 #22
It sure was convenient in the first half of the 1940s. flvegan Sep 2013 #25
American civilians donated a lot of guns. To England. Eleanors38 Sep 2013 #33
Many thanks to our resident Gun Enthusiasts on this thread..... Paladin Sep 2013 #26
aww, did that hurt your little feelings. aikoaiko Sep 2013 #31
Paladin, when the intervention takes place, you can use my spare shotgun. Eleanors38 Sep 2013 #34
Take a break from daydreaming about that intervention,..... Paladin Sep 2013 #38
"fevered brow?" It's -15° from last wk. Marvelous day! Going hunting. Eleanors38 Sep 2013 #46
They are predictable, sophomoric and exceptionally boring etherealtruth Sep 2013 #54
Perhaps the UN can deploy mental health units that specialize in sucide prevention. hack89 Sep 2013 #27
" no American would set foot in it without body armour." geek tragedy Sep 2013 #35
The comparison was with Europe dipsydoodle Sep 2013 #41
Why would Americans be afraid to visit Italy if its murder rate were 1/5 what Mexico's is? geek tragedy Sep 2013 #44
Well, SQUEE Sep 2013 #42
US murder rate is lower than world average geek tragedy Sep 2013 #39
Good point. How to cut US gun homicides by two/thirds and match Canada's rate: NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #47
Right Duckhunter935 Sep 2013 #48
It's the guns getting in the wrong hands, because it's too easy for people geek tragedy Sep 2013 #51
actually, the registry hasn't cut anything gejohnston Sep 2013 #55
We are also about 100th on the list... EX500rider Sep 2013 #58
Good point. Self-Genocide Nation is begging for a "liberating invasion" n/t whatchamacallit Sep 2013 #53
You have a funny concept of genocide. hack89 Sep 2013 #56
By the numbers alone whatchamacallit Sep 2013 #59
Isn't suicide an individual choice? hack89 Sep 2013 #62
You've probably surmised whatchamacallit Sep 2013 #63
Sometimes it is hard to tell around here when it comes to guns. hack89 Sep 2013 #64
Extremism in the name of Islam and Malaysian Muslims: The Straight Story Sep 2013 #57
Worse then 5%, 27% think sometime to often.....yikes n/t EX500rider Sep 2013 #61
The US murder rate from firearms has been DROPPING, not climbing NickB79 Sep 2013 #73
LOL it's parody piece. While the US is talking about intervening in Syria, he talking about some pam4water Sep 2013 #75
With what, a preemptive bombing program to end the violence? n/t Yo_Mama Sep 2013 #77
 

cali

(114,904 posts)
1. ok, this is silly. there is no way for NGOs or the UN to intervene
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 05:35 AM
Sep 2013

Perhaps the author is just trying to make some points and he does.

this is silly as well:

"...people are better armed and only slightly less nervy than rebel fighters in Syria"

I invite the author to Vermont where lots of people have guns, you don't even need a permit for concealed carry if you're over 16 and the greatest danger he'll face of being shot is wandering around in the woods without blaze orange during hunting season.

The gun problem in this country isn't just one problem- it's a web of problems. Starting with reasonable gun control is a start, but it's not the entire solution.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
6. Very good point, and its not just Vermont
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:17 AM
Sep 2013

The OP makes a trivial argument as many do. No one wants to look at that "web of problems" you mention. Its just the gun. Everyone is afraid to speak of the REAL problem, the PEOPLE who commit the crimes.
But I guess here on DU, you're just a "gun nut".

 

leftyohiolib

(5,917 posts)
9. 1st get the guns under control thru severe regulation then we can talk all about
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:24 AM
Sep 2013

the "web of problems".

Igel

(35,268 posts)
40. The problems involve more than just guns.
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 11:08 AM
Sep 2013

While we take a decade or two to "get the guns under control" millions of people are hurt by the "web of problems".

At the very least "let's do both." Otherwise you're saying, "While we do what I want, let adults and kids suffer. As long as we do what I want."

Then perhaps we can also deal with some of the peskier parts of the 1st and 4th amendments. Redefine terms, get outside help to supersede sovereignty, etc., etc.

 

leftyohiolib

(5,917 posts)
7. the greatest danger he'll face of being shot is wandering around in the woods without blaze orange
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:20 AM
Sep 2013

oh that's all, no biggie just some collateral damage done by duck hunters.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
13. and that's rare. anyway it's deer hunters not duck hunters
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:40 AM
Sep 2013

no, it's not a biggie. I live here. In the 35 years I've lived here, I've never locked a house door. I've left my keys in my car hundreds of times while shopping.

 

leftyohiolib

(5,917 posts)
72. i was wondering if that happened alot the post made it sound as if one were taking
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:48 PM
Sep 2013

their chances in the woods. Im not a hunter myself so I wouldn't probably wear that thing you mention while in the woods. but it sounds like your version of woods is different than mine or rather mine different than yours. I would bet our woods are much smaller.
sounds nice where you are.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
74. it happens. the last one was 2011. Particularly tragic. A guy killed his friend
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 01:49 PM
Sep 2013

accidentally and then killed himself several days later.

before that I think the last hunting accident fatality was 2005.

the woods here are beautiful, but it really is a good idea to wear some blaze orange if you're hiking during deer season.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Kingdom

NutmegYankee

(16,197 posts)
49. Deer hunters
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 12:04 PM
Sep 2013

It's like that in every rural area during hunting season. Hunters are trained in classes before they get the permit for hunting, but regular forest walkers/hikers should always wear some blaze orange. And it's not just guns. I have encountered many hunters during Bow season. Same issue.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
78. Connecticut has cities. It has huge disparites in wealth
Tue Sep 24, 2013, 08:28 AM
Sep 2013

Vermont's largest city is a town of 40,000.

Connecticut has 4 million people. Vermont has 600,000.

And even when I was a kid in CT there was gun crime on a level unknown in Vermont.

pam4water

(2,916 posts)
76. I can't belive how many people missed that it was a parody! While the USA asks the UN to
Tue Sep 24, 2013, 07:44 AM
Sep 2013

intervene in Syria over chemical weapons, this guy is throwing back some of the USA's domestic problems. And Millard Fillmore was not the first president to have a bathtub!

 

Decaffeinated

(556 posts)
21. You can be both a Gun humper... and a gun activist...
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 09:49 AM
Sep 2013

You can combine the two... but then it gets a little weird

Gun humper activist... kinda

Gun activist humper... depends what your wife is into I suppose...

Igel

(35,268 posts)
43. That's because we're better.
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 11:11 AM
Sep 2013

We can hear all the dog whistles you're blowing without noticing them, we can look past your false consciousness to see your true motives and how they correlate to your true interests.

One day you'll realize how much superior we are by comparison with you ... and find a danged good instance in daily life for using very large negative numbers.

 

pintobean

(18,101 posts)
67. It adds nothing to the debate
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 05:55 PM
Sep 2013

and only divides. Can you show where a DUer actually said "massacres are just to be expected", or is that more divisive bs?

 

pintobean

(18,101 posts)
70. You didn't insult me
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:32 PM
Sep 2013

but you tried to insult other DUers. It says a lot about you and nothing about them. You obviously aren't paying attention, because I see most of them supporting changes.
It just doesn't meet your demands. All the shit slinging that takes place here isn't going to change anything. The sooner both sides realize that, the sooner we can have a discussion about measures that that will have some effect and be supported by most Americans.

Even if one doesn't doesn't believe in God, this can be very useful:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
52. They never fail
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:49 PM
Sep 2013

Boring and predictable ... aside from being a danger to themselves and the community at large (insisting on opposing all legislation seeking to control guns and the nuts that love them)

silverweb

(16,402 posts)
4. The article makes some very good points.
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 06:08 AM
Sep 2013

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]I certainly don't think the UN or anyone else would attempt "intervene," but the piece certainly does point out some of our absurdities in a pretty graphic way.

Regarding this one sacred cow of the Second Amendment, which almost no one today appreciates the historical underpinnings of, we are as a people illogical, contradictory, and quite willfully blind.

 

FUMCSDLCBDPOS

(41 posts)
5. We are only shooting each other with our guns so it is confined to America for the time being.
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 06:21 AM
Sep 2013

Now IMHO other countries have the right to intervene, USA Style, for what we did and are doing to their countries over the years. We regularly bomb the crap out of or destabilize some country for pretty much no reason, so that country has the right to bomb the crap out of or destabilize America in retaliation or get some pay back via some other method of their choosing.

What’s good for the goose…….

Don't like it? OK then America needs to stop being the worlds BULLY.

Perhaps an American anti bullying campaign is in order.
We have them for schools and on line why can't we have one for the nation?



 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
45. WTH does MCS stand for in your username, please?
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 11:24 AM
Sep 2013

I think I deciphered the rest of it.

Thanks in advance!

drynberg

(1,648 posts)
8. I'D ARGUE THAT THOSE FACING MASS SLAUGHTER BY AR15 ETC SEE THIS A TERRORIST ACT
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:22 AM
Sep 2013

Wouldn't you? Domestic, home-grown terror, y'know.

mwrguy

(3,245 posts)
28. mass slaughter with a shotgun is also
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:36 AM
Sep 2013

I dont know why people that a pass.

They are as much of a killing machine as a Bushmaster.

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
10. perhaps a series of limited targeted cruise missile attacks on munition manufactures would be
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:26 AM
Sep 2013

appropriate - Absolutely NO BOOTS ON THE GROUND - however if the U.S. agreed to an inspection process where the excessive weapons could be placed under international control - a diplomatic solution would be preferable and a military solution could be avoided provided a military solution remains on the table as an affective deterrence should it be necessary

malaise

(268,553 posts)
17. Those of us who don't produce guns but can't stop them
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 09:02 AM
Sep 2013

from entering our borders wish someone would so something. Our governments are forced to have all sorts of American made security apparatus to protect the US while no one in the US gives a shit about the amount of US made weapons on our streets.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
32. The NRA does in fact pay royalties to anti-gun cartoonists, and this screed
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:49 AM
Sep 2013

qualifies as a cartoon.

ileus

(15,396 posts)
19. Wonder if the author can place those 32k deaths in any category besides
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 09:45 AM
Sep 2013

"guns kill people" ???

Of course not, breaking them down fails their agenda...


drug and gang activity
criminal activity
suicides
domestic violence
rampage shootings
LEO induced
justifiable homicides by civilians
negligent shootings (accidents)


On a side note I'm sure the world could find a few areas/countries (with smaller populations) that warrant intervention before coming to America.




 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
23. Oh, but they were "caused" by privately-owned firearms!
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 09:51 AM
Sep 2013

The author clearly has as much familiarity with causality as he does with what constitutes "civil war."

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
22. c. 20.000 suicides are part of a "quasi civil war?"
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 09:50 AM
Sep 2013

Just one example of the breathtaking inanity contained in that comedy-tier article...

Paladin

(28,239 posts)
26. Many thanks to our resident Gun Enthusiasts on this thread.....
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:11 AM
Sep 2013

....for designating what constitutes an "NRA wet dream." Take the rest of the day off.....

aikoaiko

(34,153 posts)
31. aww, did that hurt your little feelings.
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:48 AM
Sep 2013

If you want gun owners to rally around a strong, protectionist 2nd Amendment and the NRA, just have the international community "intervene".

Even you have to admit it would be a windfall for the NRA.

Paladin

(28,239 posts)
38. Take a break from daydreaming about that intervention,.....
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 11:07 AM
Sep 2013

....wipe off your fevered brow (and any other moist portions of your body), and understand that I don't need any of your guns. I've got plenty of my own, and somehow I still manage to support rigorous control of firearms.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
54. They are predictable, sophomoric and exceptionally boring
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:55 PM
Sep 2013

Mercifully they are few in number. They post en masse, but when you look it is the same few over and over.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
27. Perhaps the UN can deploy mental health units that specialize in sucide prevention.
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:19 AM
Sep 2013

perhaps Doctors Without Borders could help.

That would take care of 60% of the gun deaths.

For the rest, perhaps the UN can declare war on the drug gangs.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
35. " no American would set foot in it without body armour."
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:57 AM
Sep 2013

Apparently, this person is unaware that many, many Americans visit Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador.

Only body armor we take is sunscreen and bug repellent,

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
44. Why would Americans be afraid to visit Italy if its murder rate were 1/5 what Mexico's is?
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 11:13 AM
Sep 2013

Also, is Russia considered part of Europe? Its murder rate is twice ours, and lots of Americans visit there.

SQUEE

(1,315 posts)
42. Well,
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 11:11 AM
Sep 2013

I have been to Hondo in full battle rattle, but worst thing I had to deal with was burning shit... Somehow my recruiter neglected to tell me the details on field hygiene. To this day the smell of diesel makes me wanna puke.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
47. Good point. How to cut US gun homicides by two/thirds and match Canada's rate:
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 11:29 AM
Sep 2013

Address the causes of suicide, prevent suicide, eliminate suicide.

Hell, if we did that the 1/3 of homicides that are murders and accidents would probably drop, too.

Shame that we're too focuses on getting rid of legal gun ownership and not on the root problems that cause the overwhelming number of deaths.

~~~

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
51. It's the guns getting in the wrong hands, because it's too easy for people
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:43 PM
Sep 2013

to traffic them.

Canada does it right--you can own guns, but you have to register them. That way, if they get used in a crime, we know who to talk to.

Gun registry would cut down on gun violence here.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
55. actually, the registry hasn't cut anything
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:56 PM
Sep 2013

and only handguns and a few rifles have to be registered. It was lower before any of those laws were passed. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

EX500rider

(10,782 posts)
58. We are also about 100th on the list...
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:59 PM
Sep 2013

......why don't we start the UN with the 100 countries or so with a higher murder rate 1st and see how it works out?

whatchamacallit

(15,558 posts)
59. By the numbers alone
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:01 PM
Sep 2013

this place is atrocity central. Maybe that's the price of "freedom", but if the moral authority to call air strikes is about protecting the innocent, we need an intervention.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
62. Isn't suicide an individual choice?
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 02:34 PM
Sep 2013

two thirds of gun deaths are suicides. How does that fit into your world view?

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
57. Extremism in the name of Islam and Malaysian Muslims:
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 01:57 PM
Sep 2013

When asked whether violence such as suicide bombing is justified to defend Islam from its enemies, 5% of the Malaysian Muslims surveyed said it is “often justified”, 22% said “sometimes justified”, 12% said it is “rarely justified”, 58% said it is “never justified”, while 3% indicated that they did not know or refuse to answer.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/sideviews/article/extremism-in-the-name-of-islam-and-malaysian-muslims-joshua-woo

In the US less than 1% of gun owners use them in a crime. Here we have at least 5% of a group they choose to be in believing suicide bombing is ok.

Based on how anti-choice folks are on DU about guns I expect the following "Muslim humpers, Islamic nut jobs, etc" To appear on any thread which discusses or mentions people who make the choice to be a member of that group.

All muslims are now suspect and we should fear them (Can you IMAGINE if there was a mulsim person walking around your kids' school and praying? How many of you would be afraid and call the cops, even if the person did every day? I know most folks here would, just to be safe and secure).

We need more safety. Limits on religion, alcohol, more war on drugs (since drugs fuel stealing/shootings/etc) - so let's start with the 99% who obey the laws on guns and work them over (surely new feel good laws will stop crimes! Just think, slap out a new law and suddenly people will throw their guns and drugs down and hold hands. Even if not, you might 'feel' more safe, and feelings are important).

NickB79

(19,214 posts)
73. The US murder rate from firearms has been DROPPING, not climbing
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 12:04 AM
Sep 2013

In fact, it's dropped PRECIPITOUSLY: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/05/07/181998015/rate-of-u-s-gun-violence-has-fallen-since-1993-study-says

"Firearm-related homicides dropped from 18,253 homicides in 1993 to 11,101 in 2011," according to a report by the federal , "and nonfatal firearm crimes dropped from 1.5 million victimizations in 1993 to 467,300 in 2011.


At the same time, the US population climbed by 60 million people, and tens of millions of new guns (many of them tactical-style, ie AR and AK, rifles and handguns) were added to the few hundred million already in circulation.

The author has no fucking clue what he/she is writing about, frankly. We've cut our murder rate almost 50%, and our nonfatal firearms crimes by over 75% in 30 years. There's definitely more we could do to get it even lower, but to suggest that the US is in need of external intervention because of a "firearms epidemic" is insane.

pam4water

(2,916 posts)
75. LOL it's parody piece. While the US is talking about intervening in Syria, he talking about some
Tue Sep 24, 2013, 07:39 AM
Sep 2013

of our domestic problems.

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