Terrorists shot anyone who could not recite an Islamic prayer in the mall attack

[The Straight Story]

Those who could not recite Islamic prayer 'were shot'

The Foreign Office has confirmed three British nationals were among 68 people killed in the terrorist attack at a Kenyan shopping mall.

Around 200 more were seriously injured. Survivors have spoken of their terror as gunmen shot anyone who could not recite an Islamic prayer.

Around a dozen terrorists are still holed up in the mall along with an unknown number of hostages.

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2013-09-21/gunmen-open-fire-in-kenya-mall-nairobi/

[hobbit709]

1. ain't religious fanaticism wonderful?

[Dreamer Tatum]

7. Because all religious fanaticism is the same.

Wake me when Christians do what's been done here.

[hobbit709]

8. Don't know your history very well, do you?

[Dreamer Tatum]

12. I think a good measure of desperation

is how many hundreds of years you have to go back to draw an equivalence.

It's OK - I know how much it must pain some people that this is happening while the Southern Baptists that are supposedly no better are watching football right now. Don't worry - I'm sure a group of heavily armed Baptists will soon storm a mall in Tennessee and kill anyone who can't quote scripture.

[hrmjustin]

14. Ireland.

[hobbit709]

17. Just in my lifetime here's two

Jonestown
Dr. Tiller and all the abortion clinic bombings


I hold ALL religions equally in disdain. NONE have clean hands.

[11 Bravo]

20. Well, I only hold MOST absolutists in disdain. While some of them ...

may have clean hands, many of them (particularly the internet variety) are intellectually lazy and boring.

[hobbit709]

21. "When viewed from the outside, all religions appear equally silly"

[Nuclear Unicorn]

28. That's a very self-righteous attitude.

Which is the mother of all fanaticism.

[hobbit709]

32. My only fananticism about religion is to keep it away from me.

I don't care what imaginary sky wizards others want to believe in as long as they keep it to themselves.

[11 Bravo]

40. Here's the thing. Are all beliefs silly? Hell, they can't be quantified, so ...

they're silly, right? I don't know if you're married, but if so, do you believe that your spouse loves you? If so. by your own logic, you're silly. Got kids? Believe that they love you? Silly. Believe that mom and dad give a shit about you? Silly!
I guess that ANY belief that can't be measured is easy to dismiss, but that is lazy and intellectually dishonest. YMMV.

[LanternWaste]

68. As do all nations, political and economic systems and philosophies-- all of which are predicated on

"When viewed from the outside, all religions appear equally silly"



As do all nations, political and economic systems and philosophies-- all of which are predicated on little more than the imaginary.

However, I'm quite sure you'll rationalize supporting one or more silly imaginary things at the expense of other silly, imaginary things. It's human nature.

[dballance]

30. Tim McVeigh and the Fed Building Bombing, Dr. Tiller...

You missed all the Christians who've been bombing, burning and vandalizing abortion clinics and Mosques. Not to mention all those good white Christians in the KKK that were fond of lynching any negro who got "UPPITY," blowing up a predominantly black church killing the innocent young girls. All of that within my lifetime and I'm not several hundred years old.

Then of course there were the early days in the US where just being a Baptist in certain colonies would get you hanged.

You might want to take a look at a lot of those current White-Supremacist and Neo-Nazi sites on the web. They're all about God and country. If you don't think they'd like to take over and impose Christian-law just as much as the Islamic extremists want to take over and impost Sharia law then you're in denial.

[hrmjustin]

31. This is a good point you made in the end.

If you let Christian fundamentalists be in Charge you basically would have a form of Sharia law.

The problem for Muslims is that the majority do not live in nations with liberal democracies.

[Dreamer Tatum]

33. *pfft*

Your points are granted. Just get back to me when Christians do in this country what Islamists are doing in others.

Spare me what you're "sure" would happen...wake me when it does. I get it: you can't dismiss Islam. Great.

[hrmjustin]

34. I agree that Islam has major issues that need to be addressed but we Christians have our own issues

as well. Granted they are not all the same issues but we have had violence in our past and we have Christians that do violence now.

[Dreamer Tatum]

36. It will be a cold, cold day in hell when a Christian does something violent

and a DUer attempts to soften it or deflect by saying something about Islamists.

Because it never happens.

Yet a group of heavily armed men can storm a mall, murder scores of people and hold the rest hostage, and the bulk of the replies consist of "sad" or "yes, but those Christians!"

No need to explain why or retort - I understand why it is. It's just pathetic.

[hrmjustin]

39. I will agree with you that too many Duers try to minimize Muslim terrorism by saying those

Christians. I agree 100% that many DUers are willing to blow it off, but not all do that.

[11 Bravo]

42. You nailed it, Dream Street, but the ugly truth is ...

that while you're right, it's a truth that's unacceptable at DU.

[dballance]

65. Thanks for the response. Hell isn't cold yet, but I think we are.

I'm not defending the Muslim extremists in Kenya or anywhere else any more than I defend people like Westboro Baptist. I won't soften my rhetoric for Christians, Buddhists, Jews, etc. if they pull some similar stunt. It will be a cold day in hell when I do that.

BUT, and this is what I seem to be failing to point out for your consideration - my bad.

There are approximately 1.6 billion Muslims (approx. 2.2b Christians of various sects) in the world. It makes no sense to equate the comparatively small number of Islamic Extremists with the overall population of Muslims. Just as I think you'd agree it would be silly to equate the relatively small number of Christian Extremists with the overall population of Christians.

Both sets of extremists, in my opinion, are not really learning the kinder, gentler side of their religion. So we shouldn't refer to small sets (relative to the whole) as Muslim Extremists unless every time we refer to Westboro Baptist we refer to them as Christian Extremists. That's not what happens. WBC is referred to as extremist, a hate group, out of touch, an "Unaffiliated Baptist Church." I've Googled and tried to find if they've ever been referred to as Christian Extremists. I couldn't find any article that says that but I would love to see a link to an article in the MSM where that happened. It appears, in my opinion, that the media have been very careful to steer clear of using terms like "Christian Extremists" and doing their best to not invoke the ire of the Baptists by that whole "unaffiliated" statement. They're afraid of the Christians - just my opinion.

Don't forget that Islam's origin is from around 600 CE. That puts Islam several hundred years behind Christianity in its evolution. That puts Islam on a fairly parallel path with Christianity for having its violent period about the same stage as Christianity did. It's just that now we have 24-hour news cycles to fill and the coffers of the MIC to fill. The Crusades made the Templars wealthy and Iraq and Afghanistan have made the MIC wealthy. The MIC needs an enemy to justify itself. I'd like to believe the Church Fathers had much purer motives of actually trying to save people from eternal damnation than Dick Cheney's power and profit motives though.

Frightening an overwhelming number of Christians that those evil Muslims who don't believe Jesus of Nazareth was the son of God are the enemy has been big bank for the MIC and others in the US, UK and other countries.

I doubt the Buddhists and the Shinto that were around at the time of the Crusades and the Inquisition had any idea what was going on because there was no CNN and no FOX news. If there had been I'm sure Christianity would have been labeled a violent religion back then.

A group of heavily armed men who storm a mall, murder scores of people and hold the rest hostage should be roundly condemned. There is no doubt about that. That they are doing it, in part, because of what they believe their religion says they should do is no more reason to identify them by their religion as Muslim Extremists than we've identified Scott Roeder, Dr. Tiller's assassin, as a Christian Extremist rather than as an "anti-abortionist." His anti-abortion stance is just as much a result of his religion as the actions of the people who stormed the mall in Kenya were a result of their religion.

So let's be fair and call it what it is. It's hypocrisy to most often refer to groups of people who do horrible things as Muslim Extremists just because they are Muslims if we don't also refer to people like McVeigh, Roeder, and WBC as Christian Extremists when they do horrible things.

So yes, there are a lot of "yes, but those Christians!" replies. There are times when you have to apply more weight to one side of the scale than the other to bring things back into balance. My opinion is that this is what you are seeing. It's perfectly fine to point it out because it allows us to have a cordial discussion like this.

Please do retort. I can understand if perhaps you had some frustration with responses, mine included. I'd like to think none of us, nor DU, is pathetic.

[greenman3610]

50. don't forget Iraq,

which, in the minds of fundamentalists, was a holy war. Dubya called it a crusade, and said privately he thought it was part of a biblical confrontation.
remember General Boykin:
Boykin staged a travelling slide show around the country where he displayed pictures of Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. "Satan wants to destroy this nation, he wants to destroy us as a nation, and he wants to destroy us as a Christian army," he preached. They "will only be defeated if we come against them in the name of Jesus". It was the reporting of his remarks at a revival meeting in Oregon that made them a subject of brief controversy.

There can be little doubt that he envisages the global war on terror as a crusade. With the Geneva conventions apparently suspended, international law is supplanted by biblical law. Boykin is in God's chain of command. President Bush, he told an Oregon congregation last June, is "a man who prays in the Oval Office". And the president, too, is on a divine mission. "George Bush was not elected by a majority of the voters in the US. He was appointed by God."

Boykin is not unique in his belief that Bush is God's anointed against evildoers. Before his 2000 campaign, Bush confided to a leader of the religious right: "I feel like God wants me to run for president ... I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen."

Michael Gerson, Bush's chief speechwriter, tells colleagues that on September 20 2001, after Bush delivered his speech to the Congress declaring a war on terror, he called Gerson to thank him for writing it. "God wants you here," Gerson says he told the president. And he says that Bush replied: "God wants us here."

[Dreamer Tatum]

56. Steaming pantload nt

[gopiscrap]

44. Holy fuck Christianity has been one of the most violent

Religions in history. Does the word Crusades< mean anything to you?

[undeterred]

2. So if you were a lapsed Muslim who didn't pray

you got killed.

[cthulu2016]

25. Why would one consider a lapsed Muslim to be a Muslim?

It's not an ethnicity. It is a religion.

It is something one must actively be. From the perspective of a fanatic a lapsed Muslim is probably even more reprehensible than a simple non-believer.

[11 Bravo]

43. You do understand that according to the murderers who committed this crime ...

there is no such thing as a "lapsed" Muslim? Those who used to be Muslims, and decide to no longer identify as such, are to be considered "apostates" and are therefore worthy of death.

[cthulu2016]

63. Yes

I intentionally phrased my post softly because, despite my knowledge of the severity of apostasy, I lack perfect knowledge of the persons doing the shooting.

It appears very likely that they would have considered an apostate fair-game, hence "probably."

[longship]

27. Apostates? Yup, I imagine so. nt

[MADem]

57. If you were a "lapsed Muslim" you would still know the prayers.

A lapsed Catholic or other Christian doesn't forget the Lord's Prayer if they once learned it.

Even if you were a secular Muslim you still would have been exposed to the religious aspects of the faith by religious family members, TV, holidays, etc.

[MH1]

3. Any vocal outcry from world Islamic leaders disowning these tactics?

Also, in Pakistan, a suicide bomber blew up a historic Christian church.

[Posteritatis]

4. No outcries that people calling for outcries would ever recognize, I imagine.

Those mobile goalposts sure do rock in that sense.

[MH1]

6. Any at all?

Just curious. (It hasn't been a mobile goalpost for me, by the way.)

[Posteritatis]

15. There is after pretty much all of these

However, in as close to one hundred percent of instances of it as makes no difference, people asking why They Haven't Said Anything will dismiss or ignore anyone who has.

"Oh, they don't count." "Oh, they're not really an Islamic leader." "They didn't word it the way I wanted them to." "That doesn't count, they're the wrong denomination."

I don't assume good faith when someone asks that question, mainly because the followups are invariably the same thing.

[treestar]

9. The President of Somalia disowned the attack

http://allafrica.com/stories/201309220020.html

[Recursion]

61. Who are "world Islamic leaders"?

The only really hierarchically organized sect is the Shi'ites, and they think the Sunnis are infidels (or at least heretics) anyways.

[Dawson Leery]

5. Where is the condemnation from Islamic leaders?

[Posteritatis]

10. Which leaders are you willing to recognize as such? (nt)

[kestrel91316]

13. Islam doesn't HAVE "leaders". It's not a monolithic hierarchical religion like Catholicism, lol.

It's more like fundamentalist Christianity, where anybody who wants to can claim to be a religious authority and open up a church.

[Recursion]

62. Well, the Shi'ites have a hierarchy, but they would hardly approve of Al-Shabab

But, yeah, that's a big misconception a lot of the west has.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. have you looked for any? i suspect if you are not seeing any, its your laziness

not because these statements have not been made

In the Nairobi suburb of Eastleigh, which is predominately inhabited by Kenyan Somalis, residents feared reprisal attacks from Kenyans. Muslim leaders in Kenya also condemned the terror attack as heinous.

“This is not allowed in Islam. We support the government and urge them to investigate it fully,” said a senior Muslim leader.

Mombasa senator Hassan Omar also appealed to the security agencies “not to play into the hands of the attackers who would want to divide Kenyans along religious lines”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/kenya-attack-death-toll-stands-at-68-as-security-forces-battle-with-armed-terrorists-in-nairobi-shopping-centre-8831413.html

[FarCenter]

11. Is there a Berlitz "Islamic Prayers for Travelers"?

[hrmjustin]

16. Heartbreaking.

[MNBrewer]

19. Well

[hrmjustin]

22. Islam needs a reformation like Christianity went through.

I

[Posteritatis]

23. Hopefully without the six generations of religious warfare it sparked. (nt)

[hrmjustin]

24. This is true. Christianity could also use another one.

[SQUEE]

26. And a 30 Years War as well?

Of course that was just one of the wars resulting from the Protestant Reformation.

[hrmjustin]

29. Yes no wars with this one. I think the Middle East had enough wars.

[Recursion]

58. Only if we get a defenestration somewhere

The French and Dutch wars of religion were bloodier in some ways, but, yeah, for real continent-wide devestation, you've got to go with the 30 years war.

[msanthrope]

35. Sure...but let's not have the witchburnings and wars that went along with it, yeah?? nt

[hrmjustin]

37. No witchburnings and wars.

[Recursion]

64. Interestingly, "witches" were almost never burned

Burning and other punishments that destroyed the corpse (and so, it's thought, prevented resurrection) were reserved for political traitors. People convicted of witchcraft were almost always hung.

[Clown is Down]

54. Sorry, but you are wrong about this.

Islam appears to be going through It's reformation. The whole point of the Protestant Reformation was that the religion had evolved too much and they needed to get back to the basics.
Hence "Sola fidei, Sola gratia, Sola scriptura", etc.

What Islam needs is their version of the Age of Enlightenment

[Recursion]

59. They had one; it started Europe's Renaissance

Averroes and the rest were in a pretty secular, rational era. Not all change is progress. Come to think of it, most change isn't.

[liberal_at_heart]

38. That is terrible. My thoughts and prayers go out to those families. Now I am trashing this thread

because I can already see where this is going.

[hrmjustin]

41. Where is it going?

[Scootaloo]

45. Well, judging from some of the content posted

And the oh-so-familiar names I'm seeing... yet another thread where DU demonstrates that FreeRepublic hardly has the market cornered on ignorance and hatred directed at Muslims.

[hrmjustin]

46. The reality on this site is this issue does not get discussed very well.

I wish that changes. This issue needs to be discussed.

[Scootaloo]

47. Which issue is that, exactly?

[hrmjustin]

48. When there are terroist attacks involing Muslims.

[Scootaloo]

49. I'm confused, still, as to which issue you're getting at

Are you thinking the incidence of terrorism involving muslims needs greater discussion on DU? Do you think such discussion needs to be conducted in a more intelligent fashion? What're you getting at?

[The Straight Story]

52. Oh, I dunno, how about

How we on DU act like FR on other issues by blaming the majority for what a minority does.

Only when it comes to that minority being muslim suddenly we don't like the logic of blaming everyone else for what a few do.

So if we are scared of people carrying guns in public and we want people to understand that, why can't others understand why some are scared of muslims? Both are choices people make.

Can we understand why if we see a muslim walking past a school, taking a pic of it, and praying, it scares people? Even if only less than 1% of muslims are a threat, we need to worry about them all. Ban them from star bucks too....

[hrmjustin]

55. More intelligent and more willing to discuss it.

For people not to indict all the Islamic world and not to put their head in the sand thinking it will go away.

[Purveyor]

53. And they are "oh-so-familiar"...indeed! +1 eom

[brettdale]

51. man oh man

How can people let their religion warp them so much.

[Recursion]

60. Should it (God forbid) ever become necessary

"la ilaha 'ilaillah, wa Muhammadun rasulullah"

On the other hand, that might just piss somebody off, so use your best judgement.

[ck4829]

66. "Let there be no compulsion in religion." - Al-Baqara 256. Do they even read their own Quran?

[telclaven]

67. No, they don't

Most of the Arab Muslims I've encountered in my travels were functionally illiterate. They could compute sums in the market, write their names, and that was just about it. Those that had an education typically had what we equate to the 6th grade. Most understood the Quran and Hadiths as explained by their local Imam. Very much similar to the time when Christianity was composed mostly of illiterates and the priesthood were the only ones capable of reading the Bible. That's the problem, knowledge is power and it's guarded well.