So, my daughter's school has a Zero Tolerance policy for PDA's - xpost LGBT

[FirstLight]

My daughter is now in middle school, 6th-8th grades. She came home and informed me the other day that the school has a hands-down NO tolerance policy for PDA's...if you hold hands with someone in the hallways, a teacher can break you up and you WILL get detention. Never mind if you get caught hugging or *gasp* kissing!

Okay, I went to middle/high school in the 80s and I can say this was NOT an issue. We walked holding hands, arms around each other, and had the decency to keep our snogging to discreet areas behind the portables... but it was commonplace. Hell, it was a way of showing others you were 'with' someone, holding hands or sitting on the bleachers snuggling during lunch or games...

And I think I know why they started this ridiculous nazi oversight....it's because more kids are dating same gender people and they are afraid of the repercussions from parents and kids asking questions about gay relationships. I even told my daughter that's what I expect is their motivation for this ... It's crazy. Just because it makes the establishment uncomfortable, they outlaw affection for everyone. Seriously, isn't this the age where we are supposed to be exploring relationships? Why can't we open the conversation to include what healthy relationships are supposed to look like, for ALL genders?

I was posting here to get your take on this, but as I type I am getting fired up and think I may have to have a talk with the principal.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

1. I can offer a data point to the contrary.

My school changed from being all-male to being mixed; they brought in a rule against touching when they did so, and not before.

From the point of view of a pedagogue, heterosexual sexual experimentation is a much more serious risk than homosexual, because it can lead to pregnancy.

[jberryhill]

8. Pedagogues shouldn't be allowed in schools at all!

[msanthrope]

27. Or thespians, either. nt

[Smarmie Doofus]

31. Not to mention philanthropists. n/t

[jberryhill]

35. I believe you mean philatelists

[msanthrope]

39. And the numismatics! nt

[WinkyDink]

2. Bleachers aren't school hallways, which in turn aren't for "exploring relationships." I'm with the

school.

Funny how kids learn there's an "after-school."

[DrDan]

3. have to say that I am with the school policy - particularly since this is a middle school

[handmade34]

4. pretty much

agree with the school

[LittleBlue]

5. Ridiculous rule

I think you'd be right to talk with school officials. At least shame them for their stupid bureaucratic nonsense.

[KittyWampus]

6. 6th grade is generally about 11 years old. So I'm kind of on the school's side.

[pnwmom]

13. And it's one year out of elementary school, where it's perfectly normal

and non-sexual for kids to hold hands.

Don't you remember holding hands with friends in elementary school?

[FarCenter]

16. well, not where anyone else could see us...

[MadrasT]

29. No one in my elementary school held hands.

Ever.

[pnwmom]

30. Boys didn't at my school, but plenty of girls did.

And pairs of girls and boys.

So maybe times have changed, or maybe it's regional, or maybe -- if you were a boy -- you might not have been paying a lot of attention to what the girls were doing.

[laundry_queen]

36. At my school everyone had a 'boyfriend' (or girlfriend)

in 5th and 6th grade. Usually that just meant some giggling and an agreement that there was mutual 'like' and the odd hand holding. By middle school we were more serious, and there was a lot of slow dancing at dances and kissing.

I'd be upset if this was my kids' school policy. Way to shame kids for having natural feelings. I can see rules against disruptive behavior and I think full on making out in the hallway could be covered under that, but holding hands and kissing...silly, IMO.

[FirstLight]

37. THANK you! +a million!!!

It is perfectly a natural evolution and growth curve for young adults. In trying to control or suppress it you just make them treat having relationships in the same stealthy way they treat other things that could be even worse...it is normal for them to start seeing each other in this way, and exploring it.

my 10&11 yr olds (older daughter and younger boy) had summer romances with the brother & sister next door, it was cute, nothing happened, but they enjoyed saying they had a boyfriend or girlfriend...they were trying on the roles, seeing how it feels.with open communication they were able to remain friend and break it off in their own time before school started...they ALL handled it very maturely, IMO.

Now, when it was first declared to me that the two of them had their little romances officially going, (first I rolled my eyes and said Oh dear god...) I told them straight out that it wasn't real 'dating' not like in high school where they will go out to the movies or the prom, but that this is 'trying it on'... They even agreed they had no intentions of 'following through' in any way like *that* they are just declaring LIKE. we even talked about the boundaries, and if my daughter felt her's were being pushed, she said so. (the boy is a year older than her...) She was the one who broke it off earlier than the younger ones, saying she "just wasn't ready yet and she wanted to just focus on her art." (true story!) they are all still buds and hang out after school no drama <3
...
I remember having a HUGE crush on the boy whose grandparents lived next door. (I was 12, he was 11...cougar even then, rawr!) When he and his brothers came to visit, I was all over the hills with them, biking, climbing trees etc...and when we played hide & seek, we always hid together. Nothing happened, but oh! how my heart would race just to sit so close to him! I never kissed him but I will never forget him. There's a special magic in those relationships, they should be held in higher regard.

[pipi_k]

43. Nor

mine. And I ended up going to three different Elementary schools.

Not even the girls held hands.

I never saw any PDA until High School, and as far as I can remember it was usually limited to just hand holding (graduated in 1970).

For me, it wasn't really odd because I came from a family where displays of affection of any kind were pretty much non existent. And to this day, I'm still extremely uncomfortable around PDA no matter what the genders are.

[pnwmom]

47. Maybe you're extremely uncomfortable around any displays of affection

BECAUSE you didn't grow up seeing it in normal ways and casual situations.

My family was very restrained as well. Fortunately, I had friends and schoolmates from different backgrounds and I learned to be comfortable with these "displays."

[lapislzi]

46. Agreed.

When my daughter was in middle school, there was lots of non-sexual hand-holding and hugging among girls. She's in her 20s now, and still huggy and affectionate with all her friends.

[pnwmom]

7. Good grief.

When I was in elementary school, girls routinely held each other's hands, with no sexual implications attached. Has the world changed so much? Are sixth graders so different from fifth graders? Have all grades become so sexualized?

And there's something wrong with a quick hug between friends?

I think schools sometimes make stupid rules like this because they're worried about sexual harassment. But it would be nice if they could have some common sense -- and treat children like human beings.

[Posteritatis]

10. Schools being absurdly paranoid doesn't help much either

A couple years after I graduated one of the schools in my neck of the woods defined all physical contact, regardless of context, as violence and punished it accordingly. This led to cases of, say, a student slipping on ice, another student helping them up, and both of them getting a five-day suspension, officially for "fighting." A third of the school got disciplined at one point or another over a semester.

That policy, ah, did not last (the students took it down actually, and in an awesome way), but it's still embarrassing to even be multiple degrees of separation from the thought process that implemented it in the first place.

[pnwmom]

12. These zero-tolerance principals are just lazy. It's so much easier to set policies like this

than to make logical distinctions between harmful and benign actions..

[pipi_k]

44. So, even though

I'm uncomfortable with PDA, I do agree with you that zero tolerance is stupid and lazy.

[Raine]

18. I went to private school that was actually run by Lutherans. I remember being in 6th, 7th grade and

best friends (girls) walked around with their arms around each other during recess etc. No one was bothered about it, it was perfectly innocent and the school didn't care. Sad that such a thing now would be taken as sexual and the students made to feel shame.

[FirstLight]

22. EXACTLY!!!

paranoia has a lot to do with the motivation here I am sure....

[Live and Learn]

9. Zero tolerance polices are absurd.

They are put in place by those too lazy to teach the difference difference between appropriate and inappropriate behavior. It also absolves them of the chore of determining circumstances and motivations as well as deciding upon appropriate rectifications.

[Posteritatis]

11. I'd put the blame a level above that, myself

"Too lazy to teach the difference" implies the teachers are the ones dropping the ball here; the entire point of zero tolerance policies is that they forbid the teachers from using their own judgement. These policies come down from the principal, or possibly the school district, because they're not only stuck in worst-case-scenario thoughts but think they know better what the kids are up to than the teachers working directly with them.

I haven't met many teachers who have even a little love for zero tolerance policies; I haven't met any, period, who had a say in whether such policies existed.

[Live and Learn]

14. I meant no such implication.

In fact, most of us are teachers in one way or another. Surely parents and school administrators have a part in teaching children.

[Brickbat]

15. Zero-tolerance is ridiculous, but it's never too early to learn respect, privacy, bodily integrity,

the use and misuse of physical affection in relationships, and so on.

[FirstLight]

19. Ding!

That is exactly my point, why not open up the conversation rather than shut it down. It's not about sexualizing our kids too young, society does that. It's not about allowing for open snogging in the hallways. It is about recognizing this is a crucial age for het development of relationship and understanding norms between couples... it should be a no brainer to use the natural formation of relationships as a teaching tool...for both parents and school officials.

[LWolf]

17. Most middle schools do.

My K-8 school does, and we enforce it.

It has nothing to do with same-sex relationships.

It has to do with:

1. Treating our school like what it is: an academic center of learning.

2. Learning to filter social behaviors to suit the setting; also a kind of learning.

3. Treating the school like what it is: a community for all ages, not just experimental adolescents exploring their sexuality.

It's funny, my 6th - 8th grade students all know who is "with" whom, without physical displays. They are actually horrified to find out that teachers know, too; we know the signs without the pda. We sometimes give them a hard time about their phrasing; they say they are "going out" with someone, even if they never see that person outside of school. We respond, "Where are you going with him/her?" They roll their eyes and say, "YOU know...going OUT." That satisfies their need to see us as too old to "get it." The vast majority of those "going out" don't do so for long; several days through a few weeks is about average.

I like teaching in K-8 schools, which I think is a more natural setting than rounding up large numbers of adolescents and isolating them with each other. Our students know that young children, their younger siblings, parents, and even their old kindergarten teacher can be found in any hallway, playground, cafeteria, or other setting. In spite of their adolescent rush of hormones and discovery, they know about modeling appropriate social behaviors in public settings, which school is.

We don't spend much time separating people or assigning them detentions. A look or a word usually does the job. Being a small school, we know our kids very well. We know who is a higher potential risk than some for dropping out, for pregnancy, for stds, for hard drugs, and other seriously life-limiting behaviors. We get them what support we can with our limited resources, and we do our damned best to make sure none of that happens on our watch.

When it DOES happen, once they've gone onto high school, we grieve for them and with them. Thankfully, it doesn't happen often. Many, many of our students come back on a regular basis, all through high school, to check in with us. We ARE a community, and they are still part of that community. I have, every year, high school students volunteering in my room the last hour of the day. They stand a little straighter, spit the gum out, take off their hats, turn off their phones, and walk into the building with pride and a sense of purpose. We're still THEIR school, and they want the community to see them at their best.

[FirstLight]

20. okay, how big is your school? just out of curoisity

I think there seems to be too much treatment of school like a job site and training ground rather than recognizing the social aspect has importance too...
The kids are being policed to the point that they are not allowed to even have normal social relationships...and yes, friends (or more) hugging, holding hands, or walking to class with your arm on their shoulder should NOT be a punishable offense. My god , we are teaching kids that it's not okay to touch now?

It's great that you know the kids in your school so well, but that's not my point. It just seems like a blanket response to something that could be used as a teaching tool instead. This is a time not just when kids explore relationships, but how those relationships define them in the social sphere as well...and we should be talking about personal boundaries and social propriety, not just shutting down the entire argument.

[LWolf]

24. We have about 400 kids.

K-8.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, except for the term "argument." I prefer "conversation." And we don't shut down conversations about PDA. As a matter of fact, we have regular conversations, at all age levels, about personal boundaries and social propriety. That's why we don't have to "police" the PDA. It's rare BECAUSE of those conversations. That's why a simple look or word is enough, if someone steps over a line.

We also recognize that not everyone on our campus is an adolescent diving into "romantic" relationships, and so do they.

Touch? Platonic touch happens among all ages, every day. There IS a difference between platonic touch and "PDA."

[Niceguy1]

34. my daughters

School is the same way and I support it. I think reducing distractions is a good idea.

[pnwmom]

32. Not every minute at middle school is devoted to academic learning. Social learning is important, too

What is wrong with a friend giving another friend an affectionate or consoling hug? What kind of message are we sending when we teach that that is inappropriate? What are we preparing students for?

When those students reach college, don't you think most of them will feel free to hug their friends? Why are you teaching them in middle school that that is wrong?

[LWolf]

40. Yes.

If you read my post for understanding rather than argument, you'd find that there.

There is nothing wrong with a friend giving a friend an affectionate or consoling hug...that's not "PDA." PDA connotes sexual or "romantic" touch, not all touch.

Social learning is important, too, especially in middle school. That's why a component is learning social filters; what is private behavior, what is public behavior, what behavior is okay in what setting. As I already mentioned.

And, as already noted, "I" am not teaching anyone that hugging friends is wrong.

Do you want to argue, or do you want to understand what I really said?

[pnwmom]

41. You were responding to an OP that said students were punished for hugging,

and you supported the school on their policy.

It appeared to me that that meant you were against hugging, too.

By the way, PDA does not connote something sexual at ALL schools. Some schools consider any touching to be a PDA, whether or not it involves anything sexual or romantic. The administrators find that aspect too difficult to determine, so they simplify things for themselves by banning all hugs, etc.

[LWolf]

55. I was responding to a post

about PDA, and I responded with more information about what schools do about PDA.

You are right, of course, about different schools and districts interpreting "PDA" differently. I think you're more likely to find the more extreme interpretations at larger middle schools, where there are just too many students and too few adults to connect with them; in that setting, it IS too difficult to determine, so some may simplify things by carrying it to an extreme.

Kind of like "zero tolerance," which is carried to ridiculous lengths in some places.

FWIW, my students give ME hugs on a regular basis. They don't hug all of their teachers, but I'm a grandma, they know it, and it makes me "safe" when they really need that hug. One of my students, just this morning, found a kindergarten student crying in the hall; she reached down, hugged him, took his hand, and said, "Let me help you find your class." And off they went.

That kind of thing is common in the building, and not considered "PDA." It's considered being kind and caring.

[pnwmom]

56. I feel the same way you do about "zero tolerance."

Maybe you're right that this kind of policy is more common in larger schools. I was wondering if it was a regional thing.

[hunter]

58. Too many kids, too few adults. That's the problem.

There ought to be adults around who can figure out what's going on.

I'm an ex-teacher. It was too much. PDAs were somewhere lower on my list of worries than students running drugs for the gangs, hunger, abuse, illiteracy, or bringing weapons to school.

I first "held hands" with a girl in fifth grade. It was harmless. I held hands with a boy too, which earned me the title of "queerbait" which is one of the many reasons I quit high school.

In tenth grade a girl I knew, very strict Catholic parents, was pregnant, no PDAs at school, but "everyone knew" that she and her boyfriend were fucking and fucking clueless. Except any responsible adults who might have intervened. Because the fertile couple hid it from adults. She quit school and their kid was adopted out. Sad.

I'm a lucky kid, my heretic parents explained sex and birth control long before I cared. But I remembered when I did care. And my mom said she'd take on any babies we had. She's a "choose life" person. It was on her car's license plate frame in lurid purple and pink. Scariest thing in the world. There were already too many of us siblings and assorted random babies. My mom nursed kids for fifteen years. I was ten years old and changing baby's diaper while my mom was cooking dinner, a kid attached to her breast. No thanks. I know where babies come from. I'll wait until I can handle it,

Me and my siblings didn't have any "unwanted" children.

[leftyohiolib]

21. nazi oversight?- omg spare me

[FirstLight]

23. sorry if that word upsets you

it was used to make a point, not to invoke the 3rd Reich

[leftyohiolib]

26. i didnt upset me i thought it extremely hyperbolic

[aikoaiko]

25. I think the plural of PDA is still PDA

Personal Display of Affection
Personal Displays of Affection

The policy does seem a bit draconian.

[giftedgirl77]

28. I have 2 boys 15 & 11 my youngest

is in the 6th grade in a school of about 1500 kids and honestly I have no issues with the no touching rule for multiple reasons. 1, It's a middle school an 11 yr old doesn't need to be hugging, kissing, or grabbing on anyone & 2. if you cut it all out there is no room for confusion or question.

Kids tend to push the boundaries & don't always understand the difference between acceptable & unacceptable touching, hence bra snapping. This way there is no gray area.

As far as the theory of it is to stop the gay kids from displaying affection, I think that is absurd. We live in the bible belt & the 2 high schools my son has been in both have openly gay teens who openly display there relationships without any repercussions from students or staff, we also know LGBT teens at other area schools as well. It is the same type of environment.

Now what happens outside of this area of GA & SC I don't know.

[Bay Boy]

51. Oh my gosh! Bra snapping....

...hadn't thought of that since junior high. Yes, I did it. And yes, I know (now) it was wrong.

[giftedgirl77]

53. It was an example, one of the mild one.

Kids have no damn sense. My oldest has a helluva lot more than the younger one he's a handful.

[Nye Bevan]

33. "Zero tolerance" sucks. Simple as that.

A girl is crying inconsolably because something just reminded her of her mother who died recently. Another girl hugs her to comfort her. Sorry, detention. Zero tolerance.

Zero tolerance is an abdication of the responsibility to determine the appropriate consequences (if any) based upon all the facts of the situation. I have no respect for anyone who institutes "zero tolerance" policies.

[taught_me_patience]

38. A bit extreme

a little PDA is cathartic!

[Trillo]

42. It's amazing that our system puts kids at puberty together

then prohibits the very activities to which puberty predisposes. It reminds of driving a car with one foot on the accelerator, and the other foot on the brakes, and both being pressed.

RE: "Seriously, isn't this the age where we are supposed to be exploring relationships?"

Schools are designed primarily as punishment zones. It is that simple. Everything else is a psychological operation designed to deceive and make you believe the truth lies elsewhere.

[kiva]

45. 11 - 14 years olds can't snuggle in school,

and you automatically think it's anti-LGBT and compare it to a regime that murdered millions? And some people wonder why schools aren't always enthused to get input from parents.

[TroglodyteScholar]

48. This is my reaction as well

There is no factual information to even hint that LGBT has anything at all to do with it.

These policies are not rare, and their purpose is to keep kids' minds on education while they're in school (to the extent that it's possible).

Acting as though this is some anti-gay conspiracy...well, it demonstrates that the OP is looking at the situation through a very specific lens.

[MicaelS]

49. I don't think LGBT issues...

Have a damn thing to do with it. I think it's just some more zero tolerance stupidity.

"If we let them hold hands, then they'll start kissing, and then they'll be having sex in the library."

Or some such stupidity as that.

[pipi_k]

50. A short guide...

[RushIsRot]

52. An Old Fogey responds:

Personal Digital Assistants SHOULD be banned. Let them use notebooks and pencils the way we did!

[alp227]

59. PDAs are so 2005...it's all about the iPads and Androids now! nt

[RushIsRot]

60. I told you I was an Old Fogey.

[Bay Boy]

54. Nazi? Serious? You feel it was necessary

to put a Nazi reference in this? They killed 6 million Jews and ravaged Europe with war. Yeah, that's almost the same thing.

[Yo_Mama]

57. Well, when I went to HS in the 70s they instituted such a ban

and it was because it had frankly gotten out of hand in the hallways. People were truly pushing - they were literally getting off on each other (clothes still on) in the hallways. I saw couples humping each other.

It's really hard to enforce a PDA ban, so I think whenever they put it in they tend to go overboard.