Family Research Council believes kicking people off of food stamps is the Christian thing to do

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

What Bible do these clowns read?

Former Ohio secretary of state and current senior fellow with the Family Research Council Ken Blackwell thinks that kicking 4 million people off of food stamps is a very Christian thing to do because being hungry, apparently, creates a sense of Christian “self-sufficiency” that not being hungry can never match!

As Right Wing Watch notes, Blackwell went on to tell the Christian Post that there is “nothing more Christian” than massive cuts to food stamps, and called food aid programs the “plantation of big government.”

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/23/family_research_council_nothing_more_christian_than_kicking_4_million_people_off_food_stamps/

[elleng]

1. Blackwell also 'thought' that stealing an election was an OK thing to do.

Consider the source.

[niyad]

2. k and r only because we really need to know this disgusting crap. hey, kenny boy, think about THIS

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

Mahatma Gandhi

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

23. Ha, never heard that quote. Very good!

[Rex]

3. That's because they are a political group and not a religious one.

Fuck them.

[longship]

7. Please do not make that mistake.

The GOP delegation is all about conservative Christianity, and little or nothing else. There may be congress critters who do not toe the Christian party line, but they know that the national delegates are nearly all Christian loonies, so they have to abide.

The Tea Assholes are worse. They are not only crazy Christians, but they're rubber room ready crazy.

Facts don't influence people like this. Arguments are useless. When one bases ones beliefs on ideology alone, this is what happens. It's happened before in history. Pray that it doesn't happen again.

Religion poisons everything.
Christopher Hitchens

[Rex]

10. True, I should not forget that.

I just think their version of Christianity is so perversely wrong, that I often focus on their political views and try to forget how crazy-stupid they are.

[LadyHawkAZ]

4. It would push more people onto church charity

which in turn pushes more people into church, since a good number of those places require attendance of church functions before they will give you food. Churches then claim an increase in membership, giving them yet more clout. Churches are also able to request yet more money and donations from their membership, of which only a small percentage goes back out in the form of charity.

From their POV, it is the "Christian" thing to do, since it promotes their sour brand of Christianity and puts money in their pockets.

[alp227]

8. You nailed it! These are EVANGELICAL groups,

their "charity" comes with preachin' strings attached. And whenever you see groups with "family" in the name keep in mind the common right wing talking point that the War on Poverty programs from the LBJ era began the destruction the nuclear family. These Christians don't care about feeding the needy. They care about getting their DYING lock step authoritarian moral worldview - hate the gays, no sex out of marriage, etc. - out to more sheeple now that more and more Americans are going the secular way.

[Half-Century Man]

14. To feed my family I have to attend 5 food pantries every month.

2 of them are in churches. Both churches get most of their food from the "Second Harvest" which relies on governmental subsidies. Both churches have publicly said that because they accept government sponsored food donations, their were asked to not require prayer. They...rudely..rejected the suggestion.

[LadyHawkAZ]

19. At least two of the ones where I lived in AZ required prayer or attendance

The Mormons here require you to either attend or work for Deseret Industries until whatever they've helped you with is considered paid off.

[Half-Century Man]

20. We have Evangelicals and Roman Catholics

The Evangelicals are friendly but power recruiters. The RCs are more formal and yell at people who ...blur...their food line.

[Skittles]

54. you should post a thread about your experiences, Half-Centruy Man

people should be able to get assistance without Bible thumping

[OnionPatch]

24. + 1000

They can't stand the idea that down and out people can get help without groveling and being shamed and cajoled into joining their churches.

So......War is peace. Up is down. Helping people is hurting people.

[blkmusclmachine]

5. small c christian, big D Dominionist

[No Vested Interest]

15. I don't quite understand the Dominionist thing.

Or the Curse.
I was watching a show on a Christian TV station which I found interesting because they were in the Amazon jungle among the native people, and the Christian narrator often referred to "Dominion" and "The Curse".

I am Catholic and we don't use those terms.
I believe "The Curse" refers to either Adam & Eve eating the apple & being forced to leave the Garden of Eden, or the "Curse" put on Ham - which I'm not too familiar with, because it's not a matter of much importance in Catholicism.

Anyone, care to clue me in - briefly- on these matters?

[LostOne4Ever]

29. Its my understanding

That Dominionist are trying to force theonomy upon the public. They want to create a nation in which fundamentalist Christians rule over everyone (christian and non-christian) and their laws are straight out of the Old Testament.

Death to people who commit adultry and all that good stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theonomy

[duffyduff]

52. It's just religious window dressing to justify fascistic political beliefs. n/t

[xfundy]

6. An A-One asshole.

Election fraud is only one of his crimes against humanity.

[Half-Century Man]

9. Then Blackwell needs to get down with his christian stop eating

regularly. Do not serve more than $4.50 worth of food a day for your family and everybody can feel the love of jesus.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

11. Bingo

We have a winner.

[Half-Century Man]

16. Rock that cross! Grandflasher B

[mick063]

12. Nothing promotes atheism better than oppressive political agenda dressed as Chrisianity.

In the old days, they looked for converts. Now they drive people away.

[cleanhippie]

28. I might frame it as "oppressive religious agenda driven by political agenda."

Either way, it is turning people away from religion, or at least organized religion. And the less of that there is, the better off we all are.

[LostOne4Ever]

31. Agreed

I don't think there are better recruiters for atheism than Pat Robertson, Fred Phelphs, William Donahue, ect.

[cleanhippie]

39. I'm not sure that they are turning people toward atheism, but are likely

Forcing people to reflect and reassess their beliefs. And that is a good thing.

[nyquil_man]

13. They say that about every policy they support.

It's their dog whistle.

[The Second Stone]

17. Christianity is about feeding the poor and healing the sick. Anybody who collects money

and says Christianity is not about feeding the hungry and healing the sick is collecting money for something evil.

[dougolat]

22. So true

actual diabolism

[cleanhippie]

34. What makes your interpretation od what "Christianity is about" any more valid than anothers?

IOW, ask 1000 Christians what "Christianity is about" and you are likely to get 1000 different answers.


Perhaps using "Christianity", or ANY religious scripture or ideology is not the best material from which to build an argument.

[The Second Stone]

35. And what makes your assertion that

any scripture or ideology is not the best material to build an argument right? That you get a 1000 wrong arguments if you talk to a 1000 wrong religionists?

Christianity is a about feeding the hungry, clothing the poor and healing the sick because those principles are loving and divine on their face, the that is the one thing repeated in the bible thousands of times. And nobody makes lots of money spouting those things.

[cleanhippie]

37. Your lack of an answer is what supports my assertion.

Twice, you have outlined what Christianity is to you, but fail to demonstrate exactly why your interpretation is any more valid, true, or correct than another's interpretation. You simply declare yours to be "right" an everyone else's to be "wrong."

In the end, any argument you use to justify why your interpretation is correct can be used to justify why another interpretation is correct. This is why religious scripture is not a solid basis for any rational argument or policy decision.

I'm sure you will disagree and insist that your beliefs are correct, further proving my point.

[The Second Stone]

44. No I don't disagree with your premise

religion is not a good policy basis, nor a way to argue about things that aren't religious. Religion is not rational. You do realize that every time you use your avatar you are making a religious statement? And not a rational one.

[cleanhippie]

47. What religious statement am I making with my avatar? This I gotta hear.

[The Second Stone]

49. You appear to be identifying with religion by mocking it by use of the avatar

what do you actually mean by it?

[cleanhippie]

51. It's Buddy Jesus. What more of a statement can there be?

[mmonk]

61. Because Christianity started out around the New Testament

and it's call to help the poor and the rich were to be outside the Kingdom of God. Today's fundamentalism grew predominately out of the post Civil War south.

[cleanhippie]

62. Well then, you need to convince about a billion people that they are wrong.

Good luck with that. Me? I'll skip the religion altogether and just do the right thing because its the right thing to do. YMMV.

[mmonk]

64. Hard to do since I don't really attend church anymore.

I have been participating and/or helping Moral Mondays which has been led by the Rev. Barber.

[cleanhippie]

65. Great! That group is doing some real good.

Not everyone there is a believer, though.

[mmonk]

66. Any movement of the people includes a variety of people

from the religious to the atheist. We are supposed to be a nation for all people. That is something the religious right does not or refuses to comprehend.

[cleanhippie]

67. You are right, the religious right doesn't get it, but they are empowered by more liberal believers.

As I've stated many times already, those who counter the religious rights arguments from scripture or religious belief with their own arguments from scripture or religious belief do nothing but validate the arguments made by their opponents.

Arguments and rebuttals must come from fact, reason, and reality, not from scripture and religious belief.

[mmonk]

68. Agreed.

But I think liberal Christians do it to show the differences in the bible and thus hope to sway them away from their arguments. But reality is my guide in all things related to government. I detest that the Democrats have bowed to giving religious organizations tax payer money and influence. I believe it is in direct conflict with the Constitution and the desires of the deists who wrote it.

[cleanhippie]

73. We are on the same page, friend.

Thanks for your reason and sanity here where there seems to be less and less of it everyday.

[No Vested Interest]

18. I've lived long enough to see anything justified

by people who want to believe what they are taught.

[RedSpartan]

21. I guess, like many supposed "Christians," he hasn't actually read the Bible...

Matthew 25:31-46:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

[cleanhippie]

30. Perhaps, but the problem with using Bible verses to make one's point...

is that one is using Bible verses to make one's point.

[LostOne4Ever]

33. +1000 (nt)

[RedSpartan]

45. I hear you.

Just responding to the topic in like fashion.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

56. What Bible verse says that feeding the poor is a plot to promote big government?

I just completed a four-year Episcopal church lay people's course in Bible, church history, and theology, and if there' anything Jesus is consistent about, it's that being a greedy bastard is a bad thing.

[cleanhippie]

59. What is your point? When one relies on scripture to support their position...

They validate everyone else who uses scripture to support their position.

And that is the problem.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

70. Except that the Prosperity Gospel position isn't in Scripture

Both the New Testament and the Hebrew Scriptures are pretty consistent in condemning the greedy and those who oppress the poor.

The right-wingers who talk about "the government stealing from the successful to feed the slackers" are able to call themselves Christians precisely because their flocks rarely read more than a few selected stories from the Bible and never get around to the very socially conscious later Jewish prophets or Jesus' consistent condemnation of financial greed.

Unlike liturgical Christians, who follow a lectionary that takes them through almost all the Bible over the course of three years, evangelicals and fundamentalists tend to hear only what their preacher chooses to preach on.

[cleanhippie]

74. It seems that you are making the "no true Scotsman" argument.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

While I understand your point, I feel it best to leave the religiously based arguments for policy and position in church where they belong. They tend to do little good and more harm when brought into politics and real-life governing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

80. And you are determined to be negative about religion, no matter what I say

[cleanhippie]

81. Religion is, at very best, a zero-sum proposition.

Any good that may come from religion is negated by the bad that also comes from it. I would argue that the bad outweighs the good, but for the purpose of this conversation I'm willing to agree that at best, they cancel each other out.
And that being the case, religion is offering nothing of value that is not cancelled out by the terrible things it also produces, and should be left in church where it belongs.
Policy and lawmaking needs to come soley from secular sources. Religion just gets in the way.

Do you not agree that policy and lawmaking needs to come soley from secular sources?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

82. Yes, I have always been against laws that come from the tenets of any particular religion

Laws should be based on common sense principles that make society operate in a way that provides for the greatest good and the least harm.

I was just saying that the Tea Party and Prosperity Gospel types are claiming that their political beliefs come from the Bible, but they are able to say that only because of their ignorance.

Don't ascribe sentiments to me that I do not hold. I am not an advocate of theocracy and never have been.

[cleanhippie]

83. Agreed. Seems we are speaking the same language.

My apologies if it seemed otherwise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. I raise you Paul and Proverbs

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023704051

Their favorite sections obviously justify their world view

[Initech]

25. These assholes should realize they actually hurt more families than they help.

[closeupready]

26. So now Ken Blackwell is a Christian theologist, too?

Wow. What a fucking superman.

[Thinkingabout]

27. What I find so very interesting is this same group wants "forced births" but after they

force births they do not want to provide ways for parents who could not afford a child a means of providing food for the child born. Hey, for them abortions are wrong but it is right to starve the baby after it is born. Great Christians, huh, they sure don't follow the teachings of Jesus, to love everybody, but then they don't have to be real Christians everyday of the week.

[cleanhippie]

32. But they ARE following what they believe to be the teachings of Jesus.

What makes your interpretation any more valid than theirs?

Perhaps the best thing to do is to not rely on religious scripture to form the foundation of one's viewpoint.

[Thinkingabout]

41. Jesus did not teach me to hate, to want little children to starve, did not teach me to hate

Other people. Interpretation is in one's own thinking by I would not want to be part of let the children starve group.

[cleanhippie]

42. While I agree with you, your basing your values on scripture is just as invalid

As those you disagree with that base it on scripture.

Do you see my point?

[Thinkingabout]

43. This guy is a hypocrite, he is against abortion before the child is born and then he wants

the children not to have enough food to eat, now what part of the scripture are your basing your values on?

[cleanhippie]

46. Again, you miss the point completely. Basing one's values on one's interpetation of scripture

is useless, for any argument you make to support your position based on scripture can be used by your opponent to support their argument.


When you want to have a discussion about principles and policy that is NOT based on subjective religious scripture, and instead have one based on facts, reality, reason, and rational thought, I'll be here.

[Thinkingabout]

48. Maybe it is you who is missing the point, what group do you think this guy is associated?

[cleanhippie]

50. Irrelevant. His religious-based reasoning is just as valid as yours.

[Thinkingabout]

53. Now I understand, it is you who missed the point, start over and see what he was saying

before you tell me I am missing the point.

[cleanhippie]

58. Yeah, it was me basing my position on religious scripture, not you.

Rhetorical question: why do believers always run away from the questions that make them think about their beliefs the most?

[Thinkingabout]

69. Did you ever read in the scripture about Jesus feeding the multitude? You must not have, it is

There, you should read that part, Jesus loved the little children, did you know?

[cleanhippie]

72. I have. I've also read the parts where Jesus says terrible things too.

So again, you have missed the point about scripture being worthless as a basis for argument or position, or anyone can find anything to fit their needs.

[Zorra]

36. Typical RW pseudo-Christian. Selfish, arrogant, hateful, bigoted, and greedy. nt

[cleanhippie]

38. What makes them a "pseudo-Christian"?

Their beliefs about Christianity are equally as valid a yours.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

57. Cleanhippie, I've been through the same bullcrap you're going through here.

Can't get a straight and intellectually honest answer out of the apologists.

We should be making book on "how many posts does it take before a Christian brings up the No True Scotsman fallacy?"

And then if you tell them it's a logical fallacy they don't believe you, or don't understand the rules
of logic or C) Insert illogical reason here

The last one I got was "logic is silly."

[cleanhippie]

60. Yep, it's as if the ability to use reason is completely shut off by belief.

It's very sad.

[The Straight Story]

78. The difference is one between

facts based on 'beliefs' and those based on education with regards to the material being used.

Some Christians can believe something was said and it's implications, but when shown by someone else who has studied more deeply realize that their foundation of belief on a topic is wrong can change their view (kind of like the constitution and how we still have people interpreting it differently today).

A belief (as it were) based on an out of context quote that a person does not bother to check up could well go against that person's core beliefs on the whole but they don't bother to question it for whatever reason.

"beliefs" can have equal validity in that they are just beliefs, but they have basis in other things so some are, indeed, more valid (to understand this you have to see the baseline a person uses and then compare things in order to establish validity).

Kind of like the 2nd amendment where the people drafting it had no desire for a centralized government to not allow citizens to be able to own guns - but some mix it with the militia in the clause to try to make such a case (they believe it to be that without ever reading the debates the founders have over it, etc, and even if they do come around and agree that the base principle was to limit the government itself and not the people then say we should change it to fit their ideal of what they thought it should be).

Belief in politics is same as religion, but indeed some are more valid than others when you look at the stated goals and measure the ways to get there (even if where you want to go is silly there are more valid ways to get there).

[cleanhippie]

79. I agree that the similarities are there between religion and politics.

The problem with religion is that it is all based on subjective interpretation. And while politics may also be tied to subjective beliefs, in the end the argument can be supported or dismantled with facts.

[avaistheone1]

40. Dear Republicans,

[JEFF9K]

55. These RAPTURE REPUBLICANS will be punished for "adding" to the Bible.

[ck4829]

63. The FRC believes nuclear war is the Christian thing to do.

[cleanhippie]

75. Perhaps it is, from their POV.

Their god wiped humans off the planet. Twice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. Thesalonians

Among other sections.

This is what is so grand about the good book. You want to justify slavery as god's will? It's in there. Not feeding the hungry, yup, in there. Visiting the prisoner, it's in there. Divine right of kings, yup. Healing the sick, but of course. Charity, you betcha.

[cleanhippie]

76. More great examples of why arguments an positions based in scripture are worthless.