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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Constitution is not a suicide pact
The Constitution makes congress responsible for budgeting and raising the debt ceiling. In threatening to let the government shut down, and especially in threatening to not raise the debt limit, I believe that the Tea Party wing of the Republican Party has become domestic enemies bent on destroying the United States.
The damage they can incur would affect the economy of, not only the U.S., but the entire world, and thus threaten the well-being, if not survival, of billions of human beings. The havoc they can bring about would be many thousands of times worse than 9/11.
I believe this to be nothing less than domestic terrorism. As is stated in the headline, the Constitution is not a suicide pact. I therefore believe that each and every Tea Party member of congress should be arrested, charged with treason and put on trial.
Sounds extreme, doesnt it. But its not as devastating as what will happen if we let them proceed with their financial terrorism.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)And 5 senators. According to Wikipedia - the most accurate source of information ever.
But wait i'm concerned - won't the states and districts that elected these traitorous dogs just elect more traitorous dogs to congress? What can we do about that?
Bryant
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)It is amazing how many people here on DU want to establish a one-party rule and want to tell people that they can only belong to one political party.
Democracy means that there will be people who strongly disagree with you.
Cyrano
(15,031 posts)Nowhere did I state that we should do away with the Republican Party. My position is that the Tea Bag wing of the party is about to commit treason. And the rest of the Republican Party can't or won't stop them.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)You seem ready to throw it away. Opposing legislation and supporting other legislation is not treason.
From the dictionary:
trea·son
[tree-zuhn]
noun
1. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
2. a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.
3. the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.
Just because we don't like their policies does NOT make it treason.
Cyrano
(15,031 posts)with the exception of "... kill its sovereign."
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Will you send them to reeducation camps? I think they used to be called concentration camps.
Although I may disagree with the Tea Party, I will absolutely defend their right to complete participation in American politics. If it were to come to it, I would take up arms to prevent the dictatorship that you want to establish.
I have previously only heard the RW use the phrase, "The Constitution is not a suicide pact." when they wanted to short-circuit some of the protections of the Constitution. Now someone on the left is saying the same thing, because you want to short-circuit the Constitution.
Looking at that defination:
trea·son
[tree-zuhn]
noun
1. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
The Tea Partiers are not trying to overthrow our government. They are trying to use the Constitutional process to enact their own goals, but that is what democracy is all about.
2. a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.
I haven't seen any of them showing allegiance to any foreign power. Showing hostility toward Democrats and Obama is not the same as violation one's allegiance to the U.S.
3. the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.
Tea Partiers are under no obligation to support the policies that you want supported. Their obligation is to the people who elected them.
Cyrano
(15,031 posts)Tea Party is doing.
And nowhere did I suggest that anything be done to those who voted for them.
In reality, we know that my viewpoint will not be implemented. However, let's see how people feel about it if the government is shut down and the debt ceiling is not raised.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)And what we really need is some kind of constitutional change to ensure that President Obama's wishes are never thwarted by that pesky Congress. We could call it something like an Enabling Act.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Plus, I don't feel like giving a bunch of people armed to the teeth with firearms and potentially explosives any sort of justification for screaming tyranny.
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)Evil will not be extinguished so easily.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Yes, a government shutdown would be bad but it would not be catastrophic.
This is just ridiculous. You aren't doing anything other than drumming up fear and rattling the sheep cage.
What do you propose to do? Suspend the Constitution, outlaw the GOP, shutdown Fox News and round-up dissidents? Just go ahead and say you want to start a civil war because the nonsense you're describing would require just such a remedy.
Or lay-off the fear-mongering hyperbole.
This wouldn't be the first government shutdown in US history nor would the GOP be the only perpetrators of shutdowns. Calm your soul, relax a little. It'll be okay.
Cyrano
(15,031 posts)I suppose the only way to make this clear to you is to let it happen.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)You toss around terms reserved to describe acts of war. If you don't meet war with war then you, by definition, capitulate. If you choose to capitulate then just shut up about it and accept your fate.
Or maybe it really isn't an act of war and you're just whipped-up into an emotional frenzy.
Cyrano
(15,031 posts)not going to happen. So my question is, what do we do if they actually shut down the government and refuse to raise the debt ceiling?
I believe they're crazy enough to do it. Do you propose that we just roll over and play dead?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)we must have perpetual deficit spending in order to survive. There will come a time when the electorate demands a return to Clinton's balanced budget. We might as well start warming-up to the idea.
The federal government has shutdown before. Dozens of times, in fact. We're still here. It'll be OK.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Bas California survived? There have been so many. .
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Chan790
(20,176 posts)you'd think the Tea Party threatened to nuke Los Angeles and NYC if Congress doesn't balance the budget.
I have no problem balancing the budget as soon as the GOP understands that the majority of the revenues to do so are coming from the pockets of millionaires and billionaires in the form of higher tax rates and additional taxes on wealth.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)The tendency of some to drift toward fascist thinking in response to perceived fascism by another. The thought about what would that mean when we are on the other end never enters their mind.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)If we were to grant the premise that terrorists "hate us for our freedoms" how do we show we love our freedoms by making victims of millions of good Americans who happen to be Muslim over the acts of 19 men who don't even fit the definition of being a faithful Muslim? Does insanity suddenly become better because it's our insanity?
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)You forgot to jail the people who voted for these country-haters.
Nobody should want to bring the country down, no matter how much they don't like a president or his policies. Elections every 8 years are the only way to go.
They are incapable of understanding, like all the mental cases in the US joined the same team.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)fadedrose
(10,044 posts)But somebody was saying that the debt ceiling was NOT a part of the constitution..I forget whose idea it was, so that is not irrevocable like the amendments being abused by it....
Many want to modify gun laws because of all the killings, a misuse of weapons permitted by an amendment, but I don't see these people trying to shut down the government to get their way.
The new conditions laid out if met won't end the blackmail from happening again and again. Health care is needed, I don't know if a new pipeline is a good thing, and I've forgotten the 3rd thing, and cutting domestic spending are not ethically right to demand. It's like paying ransom, and our govt doesn't pay ransom even if the whole congress is held hostage... The fascists are winning with the help of the constitution.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Congress is not being held hostage. They're free to return to their homes, constituents and/or mistresses anytime they want.
Perhaps you're a bit hazy on the definition of fascism.
Any time you have a debate about anything you run the risk of an impasse; this includes national budgets. That's not a failing of the constitution, that's a feature because it's better to have an impasse, paralyzed government then an overly powerful government.
The only way to guarantee there won't be an impasse WRT the budget would be to grant all budgetary power to the executive or eliminate dissident parties.
If you do either then you will be the fascist.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)might be more apt...but not fascism . . .
I looked it up, and this sort of fits the 2nd and 3rd definitions. Not the first. We don't have that yet.
I am tickled pink to find someone like you who is happy with the ultimatums we now face, and so courageously defends the rights of these people, and finds fault only with those who criticize them.
Maybe the best thing that could happen is that the tea party, the ones with the big bucks who want to pay no taxes and decide all environmental laws, will lose much wealth if there is a shutdown. It's not a gamble. The Koch brothers know this won't happen because we will cave and they will become even more powerful.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)The government has been shutdown dozens of times in the past -- even when the Democrats held both houses of congress! A government shutdown is NOT fascism, it's a government shutdown. The Democrats were not fascists when they were the ones shutting down the government nor would they be if they did it again in some instance of the future.
Stop letting the fear-mongers get to you.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)we don't want to be a bunch of radicals getting excited over nothing.
The Koch brothers are turning us into an oligarchy, but that's nothing...
Sorry I ever mentioned it and revealed my "disdain" for the constitution.
Cyrano
(15,031 posts)I'm not aware of any other shutdowns.
But what about not raising the debt ceiling? Do you really believe they're not crazy enough to follow through on their threats?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)The quickest way to avert the threat of a debt ceiling catastrophe would be to return to the Clinton budget policies. Rein-in deficit spending and you take that weapon out of the GOP's hands. You're going to have to eventually; it's make the most political sense to do it on our terms.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)it was Dems against Reps...
The GOP is not in charge anymore. And the Dems don't have a majority in the house. This is unlike the past in that respect. And the Chinese are watching every move and could make demands if our payments aren't made or on time.
I don't think a shutdown will hurt only the poor and middle class. It'll also get the money people upset when their fortunes decline overnight when world opinion of us falters. They're as or more worried than the Dems here in DU...
If there's a govt shutdown, can the wealthy refuse to pay taxes for its duration under some pretext, like the government doesn't exist? Sounds silly, but this is the silly season.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)I am reminded of Benjamin Franklin's famous quote: "We must all hang together, or else we shall surely hang separately."
Sounds like a suicide pact to me.
-Laelth
pintobean
(18,101 posts)It's a political play. It has been for some time.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/annotating-obamas-2006-speech-against-boosting-the-debt-limit/2013/01/14/aa8cf8c4-5e9b-11e2-9940-6fc488f3fecd_blog.html
Then-Sen. Barack Obama, floor speech in the Senate, March 16, 2006
<snip>
It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our governments reckless fiscal policies. Over the past five years, our federal debt has increased by $3.5 trillion to $8.6 trillion. That is trillion with a T. That is money that we have borrowed from the Social Security trust fund, borrowed from China and Japan, borrowed from American taxpayers.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)fadedrose
(10,044 posts)If they pull this ransom deal off, what will they want next? Who can predict?
I don't hate them, they scare me.
Cyrano
(15,031 posts)A minority of lunatics are in a position to destroy the entire economic system and that's pretty scary.
As I've said in one of my replies above, my suggestion that they be tried for treason isn't going to happen. So the real question becomes, what do we do if they shut down the government and refuse to raise the debt ceiling?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Why not? Is it because you fear the ramifications if you do or is it because your hyperbole is so absurd no rational person would buy into it?
God forbid this sort of nonsense cause some unhinged nut to act out violently.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Your gripes are better aimed at our Party and its "leaders."
Wr don't need authoritatian "solutions."
Cyrano
(15,031 posts)and opened the door for the Republicans to steal elections.
Defeating them at the polls is going to be incredibly difficult given their voter suppression tactics and "lost ballots." These are the real "authoritarion solutions" and they're being practiced by them, not us.