I hope this isn't true and warning, VERY disturbing: Inside Kenya shopping mall, a house of horrors

[cali]

Doctor describes al-Shabab's savagery: 'You find people with hooks hanging from the roof.'

The al-Shabab terrorists who seized a Kenyan shopping mall for four days tortured, maimed and mutilated some of their 67 victims, leaving a tattered scene of ghoulish, gruesome remains that investigators likened to scenes from a horror movie.

Hostages were left hanging and had their eyes gouged, others were dismembered. Others had their throats slashed or were castrated and had fingers amputated, according to media reports quoting soldiers, medical personnel and investigators sorting through the rubble of the collapsed mall.

Kenya's The Star, quoting a forensics doctor, who said all of the victims were mutilated. Britain's Daily Mail reported children in refrigerators with knives in their bodies.

"You find people with hooks hanging from the roof. They removed eyes, ears, nose. Actually if you look at all the bodies, unless those ones that were escaping, fingers are cut by pliers, the noses are ripped by pliers," said the doctor who declined to give his name.

<snip>

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/09/27/mall-victims-tortured-maimed-in-al-shabab-attacks/2882299/

[jsr]

1. All of the victims were mutilated

Sickening.

[NYC_SKP]

2. Woman, about a dead teen's blood. "His blood protected me from probably getting more injured".

Heartbreaking.

[Puzzledtraveller]

3. I think it's true.

Skynews reporter in Nairobi said they were needing dental records to identify both victims and perps. Not good, horrible and very sad.

[geek tragedy]

4. Al Shahab are nothing but orcs. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

5. Monsters. I can't understand how people *want* to be like this.

And yet they obviously do.

[cali]

6. It's almost enough for me to say drone them. Almost.

[geek tragedy]

8. Why the almost?

As long as droning hits the right people, nothing wrong with it.

[cali]

10. I disagree. I'm not going to get into it here

I've explained my position in many ops.

[geek tragedy]

11. Just to be clear--fair to assume you'd have no problem with the Kenyan government

droning/bombing them, correct, since they've been attacked by al Shahab?

[cali]

13. No, I don't have a problem with that.

[morningfog]

68. Does Kenya have weapons capacity drones?

[geek tragedy]

70. They have an Air Force. nt

[EX500rider]

75. If they wanted them they could...

.....many players selling drones now, the Chinese, the Israeli's, the US, some Euro's, Russia etc...

[sabrina 1]

14. Because we are not them, hopefully. And because in Civil Societies arrests, charges, trials where

crimes are laid out for the rest of the public to see in all their horror, then convictions if found guilty teaches more of a lesson to others about right and wrong, than vigilante justice, which often serves to do the opposite, create sympathy for those who are turned into martyrs without trials or evidence presented to prove that they were guilty of anything.

Revenge, vigilantism is what we are condemning. To turn around and do the same thing (ever see any photos of a droned child, or the dismembered parts of a droned child?) makes us no better than they are which is why the US has lost so much of its moral authority.

Justice works far better to teach, especially young people, the difference between right and wrong.

Revenge creates a circle of violence, teaching the lesson that violence is the only way.

[geek tragedy]

15. Al Shahab does not exist within civil society.

It is a military fighting force with an actual army. Armies are not arrested, they are defeated and destroyed.

Pacificism doesn't work.

[sabrina 1]

16. Who cares what world THEY exist in??? WE are supposedly part of a Civil Society. I am very glad

that some of them survived so that they can be tried before the world and receive the justice they deserve.

Pacifism has WHAT to do with Civil Society?? Your way sure hasn't worked, has it? We have supposedly fighting a War on Terror for over 12 years now, and it appears we LOST. Vigilantism creates more terror and more violence as is clear from our dozen years of droning and bombing and torture and maiming than there was before, see Iraq and Afghanistan.

[geek tragedy]

17. So your solution would be to drop flowers and polite notes

on Al Shahab asking them to disband their 10,000 man army and surrender control over 1/2 of Somalia, and turn themselves over for trial?

[sabrina 1]

25. So you're using the old right wing 'liberals are hippies who are unrealistic, offering flowers and

love signs to dictators' routine? It was very popular with them during the Bush/Saddam years. You forgot to add 'singing Kumbaya' and giving them bear hugs.

A suggestion which, btw, I thought about when one of my Bush supporter adversaries thought it was a great way to insult Liberals. I told him he may have had a good idea that we might want to consider before listening to any more of Bush's lies. Too bad his imaginary scenario WASN'T tried. Considering how right we were about that criminal invasion after all.

Now, back to reality. I am for the rule of law as a first resort when crimes are committed. I am also for KNOWING what crimes have been committed before going directly to carrying out the Death Penalty.

All the little things that make us different from those we condemn.

I am for war only when this country is in imminent danger of attack. I know you have problems with the Constitution, but I think it is a remarkable document, based as it is on ancient, intelligent and successful laws that were the foundation of all civilized societies.

There's no need for flowers or love notes or hugs. We are all grown up enough to be able act like adults, well most of us.

[geek tragedy]

26. So, how should the regional governments deal with Al Shahab? You've already ruled out using

armed force against them, decrying it as 'vigilantism."

Where you are extemely confused is that when there's a WAR going on, one side does not defeat the other side by issuing indictments.

And, contra the 'war on terror' nonsense, there is zero doubt in anyone's mind that Al Shahab is one side in a regional war, not a mere criminal organization.

So, how do you propose to get al Shahab to stop killing people if you believe that it's vigiliantism to fight back?

[Dreamer Tatum]

27. Evidently she proposes that people armed with the rule of law

confront those armed with heavy automatic weapons and wield that rule of law conclusively and decisively.
My guess is that the 83rd Airborne Sarcasm and Extreme Irony Division would be involved to support the
rule of law being laid down on those heavily armed savages. After the rule of law is applied, along with
some of the thickest sarcasm since Hawkeye Pierce's heyday, al Shabab will lay down its actual arms.

Because that's how it would work for those with cinematic imaginations.

[geek tragedy]

28. Well, didn't Imperial Japan surrender at the offices of the Honolulu District Attorney? nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

36. Not until an ancestor of Jon Stewart laid down a VICIOUS satire

of the Empire on Armed Forces Radio. I think that's what did it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. Al Shabab isn't a country

just in case you slept through geography class.

[geek tragedy]

71. So what? Neither did the Confederacy.

They engage in armed attacks and fight in a war, they are 100% legally fair game.

[MADem]

78. No, but they are a terrorist "army" out of Somalia.

An army that committed an assault against the people of Kenya, viciously murdering many dozens of people.

Al Qaeda isn't a "country" either--but that didn't stop them from being enemy combatants.

Their name means "the youth" -- and they are a youthful terrorist organization out of Somalia--one that has been, for some time now, affiliated with Al Qaeda, too, FWIW.

Somalia, which doesn't have the best governmental supports going--but they do have plenty of armed militias.

[VanillaRhapsody]

79. and so libertarians and anarchists

Al Shebab is the final result of your pipe dream BECAUSE that is what happens. Humans are just not all peace-loving happy campers

Somalia proves why it is just a fantasy.

[MADem]

82. Listen to you! "YOUR pipe dream!" I think not, but thanks for playing, I guess.

I never said a thing about "peace loving happy campers" so I'm not sure where you're getting that kerfluffly hot-breathed noise.

Gee, al-Shebab lost the territory game, teamed up with AQ, and started slaughtering people in a Kenyan mall, and it's my fault?

You really need a better argument--an incomplete subject line about "libertarians and anarchists" means jack shit to me.

They're terrorists, plain and simple. I don't happen to care for terrorists, but that's me, I reckon.

[VanillaRhapsody]

108. oooh touchy arent you...

guess libertarians and anarchists dont like when thier theories are shown realities of human existence.

[MADem]

110. I have no idea what you're trying to say, you aren't being clear at all.

I'm not touchy, but I really just don't care.

FWIW, you don't have to hyper-reply. Once is enough.

It doesn't matter though--I just don't grasp your point and I'm not really too interested in figuring it out, anyway.

[VanillaRhapsody]

111. I Am being quite clear and you know it.

if you are not either an anarchist or libertarian then you shouldnt be insulted.

[MADem]

118. No--I see you have written words, but I can't make out your point.

I'm not "insulted" -- like I said, you aren't making any sense to me. And I'm not an anarchist or a libertarian, either.

Have a nice day.

[VanillaRhapsody]

119. then what is your major malfunction?

[MADem]

120. I have none. You're the one who came after me. nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

122. i commented

you seem to have a very low threshold for "came after" you.....just breathe

[MADem]

124. Please ......... take your own advice, now! nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

109. somalia where Libertarians meet Anarchy!

[MattBaggins]

58. Will you let us know when your finished with your silly straw man

or putting words in someone elses mouth.

[geek tragedy]

60. She advocated pacifism as the only acceptable

way to deal with Al Shahab. If anything, dropping flowers would be too militaristic apparently.

[alphafemale]

104. dropping flowers may result in a poor terrorist piece of shit...

...getting their eye put out by a thorn.

Can't have that now.

Appease appease appease.

I'll appease you with a slug through the head mother fucker.

[telclaven]

23. What can justice possibly provide?

Honestly, what do you think punishment should be?

Execution? Perhaps, but some object to captial punishment in all cases (I try to make this a center of my philosophy, but sometimes it is hard).

Imprisonment? I doubt this will 'teach others' a thing. So they live indoors with meals provided. Wow. And there are some who feel more than 20 years or more than 15 years, or even more than 12 years is inhumane.

All this talk of justice is just fairy dust blowing in the wind. There is no justice. No retribution. No restoration of the status quo.

It's just not possible.

Sadness, fire, blood, and death are the only real outcomes of these events. Those charged with responding can only reply in kind, and they're the ones I really feel most pitiful for. Even if they didn't seek to commit these actions, by the nature of their positions of authority, they will be forced into them anyway.

[sabrina 1]

31. 'What can justice provide'. Well, that is what they say. They feel wronged due to the same

acts committed against THEM. They would not exist were it not for what you are now advocating. Read some of the history of that region to find out what spawned this kind of brutality.

You don't like what they did, neither do I. Yet you are advocating that we do the same thing. Then someone else will do it again, then we will do it again, and on and on it goes with generations growing up with the idea that this 'is the only way'.

Breaking the cycle of violence is what will in the end HAVE to happen unless we want to live in a world of constant bloodshed.

We managed to do it here, Europe, after centuries of tit-for-tat violence, as bad and brutal as you can imagine, finally did have enough and began the creation of civilized societies.

So what is YOUR solution? Slaughter them and some more innocent by-standers in retaliation for this latest brutality? And then what? You think slaughtering people will stop the slaughter?

See Iraq right now. After ten years of slaughter over there, it is worse than it ever was.

I kind of like the effect a civilized society has on human beings. It is much more difficult for people to turn instantly to brutality each time they feel wronged because that is not the example they see every day.

As for what punishment they should receive, life in prison where they don't look too 'heroic' or get the privilege and influence of being a 'martyr'. They are just on more inmate with no power. That is not inspiring especially when a majority of people despise them.

Should Norway have slaughtered some Right Wing supporters of the terrorist who murdered those innocents in their country?

I like the way they handled that tragedy.

I don't see bloodshed in their streets every day. Or too much support anymore for the killer.

I think it will be handled in a civilized way in Kenya. I'm sure they are capable of handling their own affairs without our interference. We haven't been a great example to the world.

[geek tragedy]

38. You do realize that Al-Shahab has an army of 10,000 men occupying much of Somalia, right?

They are not going to stop killing and enslaving and butchering and conquering because people in the area decide to do as you suggest a nd 'break the cycle of violence" by surrendering, offering up their children as soldiers for their cause, and converting to their psychotic strain of Islam.

[cali]

43. this is a war. these people really are enemy combatants

no one is advocating that anyone do the same things as they did.

It's all very well to talk about stopping the cycle of violence, but that is unlikely to be possible in this situation.

The comparison to Norway isn't valid. That was one person.

The Kenyan forces have captured those that they can, but they've fought back against those they can't capture. Are you actually suggesting that they not do so?

[telclaven]

45. Norway had to deal with the criminal acts of a single individual

This is war. War is where the law breaks down. If I have an army and you say you're going to send Interpol to arrest me and have a trial for me in the Hague, I wouldn't know if I'd laugh before killing the Interpol agents or after, but either way I'd be laughing at you.

Sometimes, and this looks like a very good example, violence IS the answer. Cruel, viscious, hard-hearted violence used to pursue the political goal of removing an actual threat to the people of Kenya and, possibly, liberate the people of Somalia that endure dominance by these people.

[sabrina 1]

47. Really? Do you live in Somalia, OR Kenya?

Just wondering why this is your or my business.

It looks like Kenya has taken several of the perpetrators into custody. They COULD have killled them as you appear to believe would have been the right thing to do. But being a civilized nation, apparently they do not kill indiscriminately.

America's, 'shoot first ask questions later' policy, doesn't seem to be too popular in the rest of the civilized world.

11 of the terrorists are in custody in Kenya. They did not cave in to the instinct for revenge, kudos to them.

Now maybe we can learn more about this group. Maybe it will be possibe to save more lives with the information that will be forthcoming from the accused.

[geek tragedy]

48. Lemme guess-you don't know that Kenya has troops in Somalia fighting Al Shahab? nt

[telclaven]

73. Was that response to me or Sabrina?

I m fully aware of the Kenyan troops in Somalia.

For Sabrina, no I don't live there and I don't think the US will be very involved in any actions. Great, they took some terrorists alive. Nothing matters with them, it is the organization that seen the that remains a threat to the Kenyan people.

[geek tragedy]

74. Not to you. To her. nt

[sabrina 1]

95. You guessed wrong, again! What does that have to do with how this crime is handled in Kenya?

[VanillaRhapsody]

80. And they will live a better life than somalians in a kenyan jail.

so much for punishment......

[sabrina 1]

85. It is the business of the Kenyan people. Not the business of this country. I am certain they

are capable of dealing with this tragedy and of seeing that justice is done.

[EX500rider]

126. "11 of the terrorists are in custody in Kenya."

Except now by mall CCTV and eye witnesses accounts there now appeared to be only 4 al Shabaab gunmen who all died on scene.

The reason it took almost 4 days to root out 4 gunmen was the unprofessional actions of the security forces who were too busy looting stores. (also seen on CCTV)

http://world.time.com/2013/10/21/kenyan-forces-accused-of-looting-westgate-mall-during-al-shabab-siege/

http://blogs.aljazeera.com/blog/africa/kenyas-shambolic-response-westgate-siege

[EX500rider]

77. "Yet you are advocating that we do the same thing."

No, no one here has suggested we torture them to death with pliers and meat hooks like they did.

However many ARE in favor of what you do to rabid dogs and that is to put them down as soon as possible so no one else gets bit.

And since these dogs are heavily armed and numerous law enforcement is not the way to go. (unless you just want a lot of dead cops)

[sabrina 1]

84. Well, your wish has not been granted, thankfully. Eleven of them have been taken into custody

rather than 'put down like rabid dogs' and I am encouraged to know that your view is very much in the minority. No offense.

[EX500rider]

88. I didn't make a wish..

....and I was referring to Kenya having to hunt down the other members that are still in Somalia. If they surrender, fine, if not, they can eat lead.

[Puzzledtraveller]

29. I have to agree with you here.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

32. Sabrina, you're one of my favorite posters, but I have to disagree, mostly for emotional reasons

I have revenge on my mind, even though I know you're right about revenge creating a circle of violence. I condemn these atrocities in the strongest possible terms--and in my mind's eye, those terms include these people no longer existing on the planet. It's just my anger talking, but it's sincere. Thanks.

[sabrina 1]

37. I understand. I feel the same way, emotionally. But then I think countries of like Norway

eg and prefer the way they handled the brutality that occurred against so many innocents in their country.

I'm sure initially most people being human wanted revenge but supposing they had given in to that urge and gone out on a killing spree against others who held the same beliefs as the terrorist who took so much from them.

I prefer to take my examples from those who are successful rather than those who are not. Saving lives is the goal and to that is not to continue the violence.

But no problem on the disagreement DiCA! I really do understand and don't expect my opinion to be a popular one under the circumstances. Still, I do believe that someone has to break the cycle of violence in order to end it.

Love your posts also, btw

[DisgustipatedinCA]

40. You can serve as my conscience on this one, because you're correct.

And in the end, there's no satisfaction to be had with revenge anyway. But oh my god I haven't read anything like that article in...forever.

Incongruous as it may sound, I hope you have a nice weekend.

[sabrina 1]

49. I have read articles similar to that from reporters like Pilger eg, after one of our drone strikes

Afghanistan eg, back in the Bush days. It was heart breaking to read about mothers scrambling to find body parts, feet, hands, anything with something, anything that could identify their babies so they could bury them.

We are not in any position to be a moral authority on brutality. Best to leave it to others who do not have our own brutal record of murder and torture and far more bodies to account for.

Thanks for your comments I really do appreciate them very much.

[PowerToThePeople]

62. Rec

OBL should have stood trial. Sadam should have had a real trial. The prisoners at Gitmo should have stood trial. We are not a Civilized country who stands for justice any longer.

[sabrina 1]

65. Thank you. We should mind our own business, we do not have the moral authority anymore to advise

the world on issues of 'justice'. Maybe on day in the future when we finally get around to prosecuting our own Brutal War Criminals we can begin to try to restore our moral authority. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[EX500rider]

76. So what exactly...?

...... the Kenyan FBI sends a few investigators into Somalia to politely ask questions? Then what, a car full of Kenyan Police with arrest and search warrants drives up to the terrorists base camp and knocks on the gate?

[sabrina 1]

86. Seems the Kenyans have handled the situation, you can relax the world doesn't always need

OUR input. Eleven of the perpetrators in custody. I have confidence they are more than capable of handling their own affairs. If they wanted YOUR advice, I'm sure they would have asked for it. Apparently they don't need it.

[EX500rider]

90. I never suggested anyone but the Kenyans handle it..

....I just think their response is going to be a lot more military and a lot less police then you think.

If they wanted YOUR advice, I'm sure they would have asked.

[sabrina 1]

91. I didn't give them any advice. If they were to ask me, which they have not, I would advise

say what I said here. But I doubt they will be looking for my opinion.

[telclaven]

123. I'd say the situation is FAR from 'handled'

The organization that funded, trained, supplied, recruited, radicalized, and transported the attackers still exists, is still hostile to Kenyan/Western interests, and continues to occupy a geographical zone of control near Kenyan territory.

I'd say there's a whole lot left to 'handle' that won't involve negotiated surrenders and civil arrests.

[CJCRANE]

99. Except some of the attackers were Westerners...

so it seems like it's more than just the Somalis who have questions to answer.

[EX500rider]

106. Westerners who had gone to Somalia & joined A.S. n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

42. But apart from that, Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?

I am all in favour of killing people like this in principle.

I think that, given that they will kill innocent people themselves if not stopped, a small risk of killing innocent people as a side-effect is a price worth paying for killing them.

I do not know what the risk of killing innocent people as a side effect of drone strike is. It may well be small enough to justify it; it may well not be. President Obama, the chiefs of staff, and so on, may well have enough information to answer that question; if they can, and the answer is that it is, they should go ahead and use drones.

But I, personally, don't have that information, and I'm not confident that the answer is "yes".

[geek tragedy]

44. As a threshold matter, of course, it should be the regional governments

who deal with this group instead of the US. We could provide intelligence, surveillance etc, but liquidating this group should be done by the biggest stakeholders.

[sabrina 1]

50. Well, thankfully the Kenyans don't agree with you. They have taken 11 of the perpetrators into

custody rather than kill them indiscriminately, out of revenge or whatever.

They shot and killed those who were an imminent threat but arrested those who were no longer a threat.

I don't think they need our unwanted advice. Our record of killing 'anything that moves' an not 'doing body counts' doesn't give us much moral authority to give advice to anyone.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

61. Thankfully, they do agree with me.

As witnessed by their willingness to use lethal force to intervene, killing five of the attackers.

While I whole-heartedly agree that when possible it's preferable to arrest/capture people to killing them, the scale of Islamic militancy in North Africa is such that it often isn't; it requires a military rather than (or at least "as well as&quot a police response.

Also, your suggestion that the Kenyans don't want or need Western advice or help is 100% wrong, I'm afraid. Read up a little on the various forms of support they've been receiving during the siege.

[sabrina 1]

64. Well then you agree with me and the Kenyans. You don't agree with killing all of them

indiscriminately. You simply repeated what I said. They intervened, naturally, what did you expect them to do? They killed 5 of those who were an imminent threat, then arrested 11 who were not at that time a threat to them or anyone else, rather than simply, as has been suggested here, 'eliminate all of them'.

The Kenyan people are perfectly capable of taking care of their own affairs, and if you had read much history of Africa you would know that the old Colonial invasions destroyed their cultures and way of living and they do not trust the West at all. To assume that they are not capable of handling their own affairs is supremely insulting and racist actually and many people from African nations want no interference from us, just as the Egyptians, the Tunisians and everyone else have stated. Only the dictators such as Karamov of Uzbekistan eg, want help from the West so they can keep the people down.

It is supremely arrogant to assume that African nations are incapable of handling their own affairs. It was the interference of the West that created most of the problems Africa is dealing with right now.

[Uncle Joe]

92. I agree with you and this post sums up the root and complexities of the problem.

[andtheBeast]

12. You don't have to say it. It's a done deal.

[joshcryer]

87. The US is already attacking them in Somalia.

Kenya is likely assisting.

[TransitJohn]

102. It's religion. What's so hard to understand about it?

It's a primary motivator in almost all political violence.

[Skidmore]

7. Should it surprise us?

Al-Shabab butchered and sacrificed the children of Somalia on the alter of whatever it perceives its goals to be. Butchery for butchery's sake. What makes me ill is that there were Westerners said to be involved in the planning and execution of this massacre. I find particularly disturbing the tale of this British woman who took her two little sons into the maw of Al-Shabab and stated that she hopes they are martyred like their father.



http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/21/world/africa/somalia-child-soldiers/index.html

[cali]

9. yeah, that is very disturbing.

Interpol has issued a "red alert" for her. I hope they find her- alive.

[Aerows]

18. Horrifying

Absolutely horrifying.

[Initech]

19. My brother and his fiancee know someone who was killed in the attack.

They were over in Kenya on business. She was 8 months pregnant. Her husband was killed too. All over radical religious extremism. Fuck religious extremists.

[cali]

21. I'm so sorry. what a nightmare.

[Dreamer Tatum]

24. No, radical MUSLIM extremism. nt

[KamaAina]

51. So it's okay when Joseph Kony does it?

The "Lord's Resistance Army" doesn't sound very Muslim to me.

[uppityperson]

54. You give a pass to other radical extremists? Seriously? WTF?

[Arugula Latte]

55. No, ALL religious extremism.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

113. tell me...

which other religious extremists took over a mall and killed, no, tortured and maimed 40+ innocent men, women and children? which religious extremists gouged out the eyes of their captors and cut off their fingers and castrated them?

willful ignorance of what IS fundamentalist islamism RIGHT NOW is a dangerous thing...

sP

[MattBaggins]

59. your fox news slip is showing

[fujiyama]

93. Don't bother

Somehow it's a given that all religious extremists are the same. And never, ever attribute any terrorism to Islam, because that's off limits. Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, even Buddhism are fine to attack (maybe because the followers of those religions can take a joke). But Islam is a religion of peace. So I'm told on this and other liberal sites.

Until we start seeing the likes of Fred Phelps torturing people in malls and Pat Robertson's followers shooting people in the name of Christ (on a worldwide scale that too), oh... and then start bombing and killing people for religious satire, then we can equate the extremists. But unfortunately, I have to stick to observing global conflicts...and conclude that while all religions do indeed have problems, one cannot get its ass out of the medieval ages.

For now, apparently the left has a blind spot for Islamic terrorism.

[uppityperson]

94. You do not see any outrage against fundamentalist Islamic extremists on DU? W. T. F?

[dkf]

30. Is that the woman Bill Clinton knows?

So awful and tragic.

[Initech]

33. Not sure.

My brother's fiancee goes to Harvard law school and the woman was a friend of hers. They were in Kenya working for Doctors Without Borders.

[dkf]

39. I think it might be her.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/bill-clinton-honors-harvard-grad-killed-kenya-article-1.1465909

[hlthe2b]

20. Oh for the love of humanity, I hope this is not true...And if so, may the world prevail

on destroying these horrific factions.

[greytdemocrat]

22. The things that did that to people...

Are nothing but scum. They're animals.

[Arugula Latte]

56. Animals don't behave like that.

Only humans.

[dkf]

34. I wonder if they all turned sicko or if it's a few

[kestrel91316]

35. Somebody is no doubt looking for a way to blame Obama and all liberals and liberal policies for this

[Dreamer Tatum]

41. Christians will also do. nt

[rollin74]

46. absolutely sickening

the actions of monsters, not humans

[JI7]

52. This is why they have been losing power in Somalia , most of the Somali community

from Somalia and around the world hates them.

[CincyDem]

53. The role of terrorists is to terrify.

Against that criteria, this group has done pretty well. They're about creating a society where you don't feel safe getting on the subway, going to the mall, working in a tall building. It is the only skill with which they can establish relevance. Without this kind of barbarism, they don't exist on the world stage. 3 weeks ago only the elite of the global security business knew their name. Today it's on everyone's lips.

The sad part is that terrorism is like smart phones...now that they've added mass torture to the list of "features"...what's the next guy going to add so they can breakthrough and become relevant. It's innovation of the most despicable kind.

Really sick cycle with no sign of ending.

[jessie04]

63. Too horrific for words.

They should rot in hell.

[riderinthestorm]

66. K&R only for exposure.

Personally,

Disgusting. Despicable. Depraved.

Just simply horrific.

[uppityperson]

67. Indeed. one more rec for Greatest page. Simply horrific

[morningfog]

69. Damn. 70 still missing in the ruble. So, the Kenyan government may have killed as many

as the terrorists.

[MH1]

81. If "the Kenyan government killed them" they weren't brutally tortured

they probably died quickly, which would be a big improvement over the horrors we're hearing of.

It doesn't sound like the Kenyan government was hugely competent in the way they handled this, but I don't know that any of us would have done better. Armchair quarterbacking is just so easy, you know?

No, keep the blame for ALL the deaths where it belongs: on the terrorists.

[TorchTheWitch]

114. Uh, no

There were very few if any living people left in the building (that weren't the terrorists, that is). The bodies in the rubble were already killed by the terrorists before the collapse. The vast majority of the people the terrorists killed could not be taken out of the building seeing as people were much more intent on getting out living and injured people all the while the terrorists were still somewhere in the mall killing people. Personally, I think it's also far more important for the police and the army to be trying to get out living people rather than dead bodies. If you had read ongoing news reports it was said many many times by police and army personnel that there were many many dead bodies all over the mall, and that toward the end of the siege there were either no hostages or only possibly 5 to 10.

I really cannot fathom why you would think that the building collapse is what killed all those people... the believe that you'd also have to believe that somehow all the dead bodies were removed prior to the collapse during an ongoing gun battle with the terrorists.

[morningfog]

116. Do you have a link?

I read that they were going to conduct autopsies to determine the causes of deaths for those in the rubble. You may be right, but I haven't seen a confirmation of what you say.

I never suggested that there should be an expectation to remove dead bodies before ending the siege. I only raised the question.

[morningfog]

117. Here is something:

According to the former Kenyan government official, who said he had been briefed on the matter, the collapse was caused by overzealous Kenyan soldiers who fired rocket-propelled grenades inside the mall to dislodge the remaining militants, who had held out for more than three days with belt-fed machine guns. Kenyan officials have not commented, but more eyes are turning to a possible row between the police and the army, with some Western officials saying police officers had exercised more restraint in the early hours of the rescue effort.

Western security officials in Nairobi said several civilians trapped in the mall were killed after police officers withdrew from the mall and the Kenyan military staged an assault against the militants. It is not clear whether any civilians were still alive in the mall when the parking deck later collapsed, setting off an avalanche of bricks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/28/world/africa/narrow-escapes-and-questions-on-emergency-response-in-attack-at-kenya-mall.html?_r=0

[Comrade Grumpy]

72. I wonder if this is even true.

The sole source for the atrocity claims is an unidentified "forensic doctor" who talked to The Star, a newspaper of whose reliability I haven't the slightest familiarity.

Did this guy really look at EVERY body?

It actually smells more of black propaganda than anything, and I don't see why that's necessary, given the horrid reality of what actually did take place.

[AnnieBW]

83. How is this Islam?

From what I know of the Koran, there is NOTHING in there that justifies this kind of behavior - especially towards civilians. This is the product of people living in a failed state with no laws except kill or be killed. They have no concept of civil society because they haven't lived in one. All they know is brutalize or be brutalized.

[Warren DeMontague]

89. Jesus fucking Christ.

[CJCRANE]

96. As the Kenyan army blew up the roof

burying both the terrorists and hostages in rubble, we may never find out exactly what happened or who the attackers were.

[TorchTheWitch]

115. News reports said that they had what was probably most of the terrorists

Some alive and some dead. They are for some reason purposely not giving out any info as to who they are. They may not yet even know who they are since I doubt it's very easy to identify dead bodies that came into the country on false passports to begin with and the live terrorists are probably in the hospital unable yet to respond to any questioning. I'm hoping that at least one of the terrorists they got alive recovers enough to be questioned and they get some straight answers from them... though how they'd know if they were being told the truth or not is anyone's guess.

[uppityperson]

101. Yup, blame everyone for the acts of the fundamentalist extremists who do not follow the religion.

welcome to du

[agent46]

98. Ok. Outrage.

Who can we bomb?

[unreadierLizard]

100. The religion of peace, ladies and gentlemen. n/t

[NuclearDem]

105. ...which for centuries maintained a peaceful and stable civilization across the ME and North Africa.

And was a beacon of learning, trade, and religious tolerance, while in Europe, Christians were slaughtering Jews, blaming cats for infectious diseases, and going to war with each other over sectarian religious issues.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

107. Political ideology, religion, race, nationality...

Many groups have been used as reasons for unity and loyalty to a cause. IMHO, not much is more effective than identifying what most folks will perceive as a common enemy.

[joshcryer]

112. After building a violent empire.

The Islamic Golden Age happened at the beginning of Islam, around a hundred years after Muhammad died. The empire itself (the Abbasid Caliphate) was built after that same hundred or so years of absolute conquest of northern Africa and the middle east.

In other words, they conquered the shit out of everything and lived fat and happy for 400 years or so until it finally came down on them. It didn't help that Christians were pissed off about the initial conquering which led to The Crusades.

Empires built by conquering other states always have internal conflict. Just look at how Britian left Africa after the colonies left. A complete mess.

[Sunlei]

121. very sad. rescuers did toss in a lot of ?? to the point part of the building collapsed. & fire.

Think it will take a while to sort out who did what at this point.

Everyone agrees the attacker group are terrorists and killed anyone they got their hands on.

[dogindia]

125. how does one confront this kind of hated, anger and pain.

Some part of humankind has to be healed. For this tragedy to be true there is something in human culture that really must be addressed.

I have no idea how. But it is essential.

great leaders and religious figures probably cant do it. Fighting them will not do it.