17 days earlier, he'd slashed her car's tires. This day he came with more than a knife.

[Robb]

Last October, while most of the country was obsessed with the presidential election only a week away, Radcliffe Haughton walked into a Wisconsin spa with an entirely different obsession. Earlier in the month, Zina Daniel, his estranged wife, obtained a restraining order against him after a long history of domestic abuse and stalking. She worked at the spa, and he had visited before—seventeen days prior, he slashed her car’s tires in the parking lot outside.

But now he came with more than a knife: Haughton had a .40 caliber semi-automatic Glock handgun with him. Immediately upon entering the store, he shot Zina dead—and then murdered one of her co-workers, and then another. He continued shooting, and four other people were wounded before he finally turned the gun on himself.

The judge’s restraining order specifically forbade Haughton from buying a gun, and had he gone to any licensed firearms dealer, he presumably would have been denied. Instead, Haugton went to the increasingly popular Armslist.com, where tens of thousands of guns are up for sale, and where the vast majority of the sellers are private citizens. Within days he had the Glock.

Armslist.com is only a part of the online gun marketplace, but it is a big part—there were almost 100,000 listings on the site in August. The site, and many others like it, went from being virtually unknown to hugely popular in a matter of months, as other mainstream online retail markets, like Craigslist, cracked down on gun listings....

Read More: http://www.thenation.com/blog/176392/vast-unregulated-online-gun-market

[hlthe2b]

1. What will it take.....?

sigh...

[DeSwiss]

21. To lose our fears..... n/t

[GeorgeGist]

2. Well duh ...obviously he violated the armslist.com TERMS OF USE.

TERMS OF USE

I am 18 years of age or older.
I understand that ARMSLIST DOES NOT become involved in transactions between parties and does not certify, investigate, or in any way guarantee the legal capacity of any party to transact.
I am responsible for obeying all applicable enforcement mechanisms, including, but not limited to federal, state, municipal, and tribal statutes, rules, regulations, ordinances, and judicial decisions, including compliance with all applicable licensing requirements.
I will not use Armslist.com for any illegal purpose.
If I am at all unsure about firearm sales or transfers, I will contact the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosive at 1-800-ATF-GUNS and visit the ATF website at http://www.atf.gov.
I will help to ensure the overall openness and accessibility of the site to all users through a peer-review process. I understand that failure to adhere to proper internet protocol and etiquette may result in removal of my listings or more severe corrective action.
ARMSLIST may edit or remove information, including my listings, from the site without notice.
If I violate these terms, ARMSLIST may permanently remove me from the site or, depending on the nature and severity of the violation, avail itself of such remedies as are prescribed by law. Whilst ARMSLIST ABSOLUTELY BELIEVES AND CHAMPIONS "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms," ARMSLIST will comply with federal, state, municipal, and tribal law enforcement entities pursuant to the Constitution of the United States and Due Process of Law.
I take responsibility for my actions whilst using Armslist.com. I also take responsibility for any and all of my actions related to, or resulting from, my use of Armslist.com. Further, I am solely responsible for any and all consequences of such my actions.
I indemnify and hold harmless ARMSLIST and all of its owners, directors, officers, employees, and agents for any and all loss, harm, damage, costs, liability, and expense caused to them, whether intentionally or unintentionally, by my use of Armslist.com, including but not limited to direct or indirect results of violations of any and all applicable laws.
ARMSLIST may make changes to these terms at any time without notifying me. As a user, I am solely responsible for reading the most current version of the terms and conditions.
By clicking "I agree," I electronically represent ("sign&quot that I agree to the above terms and further certify that I have read, and completely agree, to be legally bound by the ARMSLIST Terms of Use

Disclaimer:

[gtar100]

5. That'll keep all the psychos away. But just in case (such as the one on point here),

Armslist.org cannot be held liable.

How convenient for them. I'm sure those strongly worded phrases and selective use of capitalized words were enough to deter a seller from shady deals that are *so* easily detectable in online transactions. Because we've all become painfully aware of just how much the great swath of gun owners here in the US actually care about other people.

[Hoyt]

8. Armlist knows lots of guners/sellers, are not as law-abiding or moral as they want us to believe.

Federal law should require all gun transfers to go through an FFL for a background check.

[NuclearDem]

13. If it had been Apple or Microsoft TOU, something would actually happen.

[Scootaloo]

23. No it wouldn't

Terms of Use are not actually legally binding agreements. They often refer to legal parameters - such as copyright law, to reference your examples - but a company cannot take you to court for a terms of use violation that does not also violate their property rights.

worst armslist could do to this guy would be to cancel his account at their website. Sort of like DU, really - skinner can tombstone you for a terms of service violation, but he can't send the DU legal team after you unless you actually violated the law or the rights of the propertyholder.

[judesedit]

3. Sorry state of affairs when the Constitution & its Amendments are misconstrued by ignorant Americans

who are led like sheep by greedy, power-hungry corporate puppet-masters. And since the implementation of the "Dumbing Down Of America", our young Americans get dumber and dumber each year. Our kids can barely pass the SAT's to get into college....for further brainwashing, I might add. (Did you know the Kochs contribute greatly to our universities so they can dictate the curriculum and who can be hired to teach it?) We are falling far behind other nations in education. And that's aside from fact that the majority of Americans are under total mind control through the uninterrupted use of electronics. Everyone's so buried in bullshit media and trivia, they don't even know what's really going on in this country or the world until it's too late. They hardly come up for food and water. Thank God there are some who pay attention or we'd really be up shit's creek. With all of the factual information out there, I just pray there are young people doing research on their own to find the truth and who will shout it out to all they come in contact with. They are our future. We need those pioneers now. They are our only hope of getting some reasonable, necessary gun-contol legislation passed and enforced in this country. The old geazers are so weak they can't bat a fly, so way too far gone.

[gtar100]

7. Many of the youth today have no illusions about what they are being handed by their elders.

I grew up in the 70s with the illusion that the future would get so much better because people cared about community, the environment, education, and great possibilities. But I watched that dream get shattered. Today's youth have a much different world being handed to them. One in which their very survival into their own future is legitimately questionable. And they know it. All the greedy bastards who caused this mess in the first place I'm sure are hoping they'll be dead before the consequences come down. I pray they have a soul that cannot escape so easily.

[CrispyQ]

4. So tragic.

Thanks for these posts, Robb. I know another DUer gave you a hard time about it being your hobby, or some such BS, but many of us appreciate it.

[Hoyt]

9. +1

[Shrike47]

6. I would never rely on a restraining order in this kind of relationship.

I would get one, but back it up with a weapon. (easy for me to say, I guess, I've never been in this kind of a relationship.)

[Mojorabbit]

10. So would I. nt

[stevenleser]

12. Most workplaces dont allow you to bring weapons to work.

Even assuming you had one in a purse or drawer, you would have to see him, have time to get it out of wherever it was, take aim and fire. Oh and that is during where he has probably also seen you and since he is already brandishing the gun, he doesn't have to take time to get it out, etc.

The only thing that would have stopped this is what I saw in the UK in 1999. They literally had most big office buildings equipped with metal detectors on the ground floor that you had to pass through before going up the elevators to the office areas.

[inch4progress]

28. What happens when the guy disarms you?

Or some kid finds your gun and shoots his little brother accidentally? Who is responsible? You or the manufacturer?

[WCLinolVir]

31. Too many factors.

Unfortunately the only choice is to go underground, so to speak. And most people can't just pull up and leave. He purposefully went someplace where he could attack her when she would be the most vulnerable in many ways. He went from tire slashing to mass murder. The signs may have been there, but denial is usually a factor in considering your level of risk. Hard to think the creep you slept with is a sociopath.
If I was being stalked, I would be proactive.

[SheilaT]

11. Remind me again how guns make us safer?

[hack89]

14. Ask Marissa Alexander

she had a Florida concealed carry permit.

[Robb]

15. Are the gun folk re-claiming her now?

I seem to recall you all abandoned her for firing into the air.

[hack89]

16. Either CCWs are good or they are bad. What is it?

she was certainly irresponsible in how she used her gun. Do you think she should have had a gun in the first place?

[Robb]

17. OK, I'm confused. You think she was irresponsible?

[hack89]

18. Any trained gun owners knows warning shots are illegal

and will get you in serious legal trouble. Think about it - shouldn't there be severe penalties for.shooting blindly with no idea where the bullet will end up?

[Robb]

19. OK, then, I'll bite.

You think "be sure of your target" wasn't covered in her CCW class?

[hack89]

20. She would have been taught never to fire a warning shot

if the situation does not justify shooting your assailant then don't shoot. You certainly don't shoot in the direction of children.

In many states warning shots are a felony and you will be charged with aggravated assault.

[Robb]

33. So we agree the process broke down somewhere.

Where do you think it happened?

[hack89]

34. Not sure - Florida mandates training before you can get a CCW

I would pull the string and see where she got here training from and whether they do a good job.

[TheDebbieDee]

26. Yeah, yeah, the minority report reasoning persists! She could have hurt somebody.

She could have shot her children! Those bullets could have hit anybody........

But those bullets didn't hit anybody, she didn't shoot anybody, she didn't hurt anybody....and she got 20 years!

[hack89]

32. She got 20 years because of Florida's draconian minimum sentencing laws

she was offered a plea deal which she turned down.

In most every other state in the union she would not have gotten 20 years.

[Shrike47]

27. From a legal standpoint, you're probably better off if you kill him.

No witness.

[gopiscrap]

22. holy cow that site needs to be shut down

[47of74]

24. I felt a whole f--k of a lot safer in Turkey...

...than I do in this country.

[reACTIONary]

25. In Istanbul...

I overheard a hotel clerk tell a concerned tourist that it was a lot safer than where she came from. True.

[B Calm]

29. I use to work with a guy that stalked his wife after she left him. She worked

at a local Family Dollar store. He parked in the parking lot of the store and waited for her to get off work. She walked out of the store and he shot her in the head with a 44 handgun and drove away. They found him the next morning in a church parking lot slumped over his steering wheel. He put the gun in his mouth and ended it.

Nice guy and I just couldn't believe he could do such a thing, but he did.

[BainsBane]

30. She can't really be dead

because what you describe is impossible, according to every gun lobby stumper. In fact several have called me a "liar" for insisting any guns in America are sold without background checks. People who relentless spread that gun lobby propaganda are responsible for these murders, and I only hope they reap everything they deserve.

I sited a study of sales negotiated through arms list that were subject to no background checks, and they insisted that study was false propaganda. These people who stump day in and day out for the merchants of death aid and abet the murders of women like this. They fight unceasingly for victories just like this.

[davsand]

35. I'm not discounting the problem of private gun sales, but any Order of Protection is not worth much.

I agree fully that private gun sales need to be regulated, but I also think that there are a lot of people that think that a court order is going to protect them from harm. I know more than one cop or prosecutor that will say openly that OP orders are dangerous because they lead to a false sense of security in a lot of cases. Think about this, to get an OP issued you have to demonstrate that the person is likely to harm you. In many (if not most) cases, the standard is that they have to have already inflicted some type of harm. IF you KNOW they have already gone outside the law and actually inflicted harm BEFORE that Order of Protection is issued, why would you EVER think they'd give a rip about doing it again?

We seriously need to be looking at this issue, and I do not know what the answer is. We can't arrest based on what we THINK might happen, but we also know full well that there are too many cases where it is only a matter of time until it does happen.

Sorry for the rant. I'll climb down off my soapbox now.



Laura

[Robb]

36. Laws exist or are proposed in many states

...to both deny a restrained person the legal ability to buy a firearm, and to collect any already owned until the restraining order is lifted.

Seems pretty (pardon the current cliche) common sense to make them less deadly.