If Democrats cave now, do you *really* think things will *ever* get better?

[MannyGoldstein]

Really?

Reversing course means first stopping the plummeting. We can argue motives, but what's happened is indisputable: For 20+ years, Democrats have been appeasing and capitulating. And the 99% have plummeted.

Appease, capitulate, plummet. Repeat.

Until we end this cycle, the plummeting continues. Does anyone think that's not true? Does anyone think that the Radical Right will suddenly become decent people who value peace, prosperity, and love for all?

A government shutdown will be painful to many, but we must not trade away pain today in exchange for far more pain tomorrow.

I ask that all Democrats, both the right and the left, join together in rock-solid rejection of negotiations. Any negotiations. No clever words, no "common sense bipartisan changes that make our government better", no nothing.

The beginning of the end of this garbage must come now.

Regards,

First-Way Manny

[dsc]

1. I would be OK with dealing over the government shutdown

which is simply the budget. We should get more domestic spending, they should get their choice of tax cuts or defense spending, and we should call that a day. As to the debt limit, no negotiations whatsoever.

[Recursion]

4. Sure, I don't think that's an existential threat

That's kind of been the basis of budget negotiations since 1789: one side wants more spending, the other wants less, and eventually the pain of reality makes them meet in the middle.

[delrem]

20. Untrue. It isn't about "one side wants more spending, the other wants less".

The true fight is over *where* tax money is spent, for what purpose, and to whose benefit.
It's also about whether to regulate the money market or to just let the monied class plunder our assets and hope for a "free hand of the marketplace" to do what's best.

A cursory examination of how R admins have spent tax money shows they aren't even close to being deficit hawks. The opposite, in fact, and for an R admin no debt is too big to encumber the US if it directly feeds the MIC, some of whose prime shareholders are among both D *and* R reps.

[Enthusiast]

40. +1

Very well said!

[Scuba]

41. Eggzaklee!

[lastlib]

71. +1,000,000,000!

[cui bono]

73. +1

Two sides arguing over how much to spend is a simplified way of looking at it and actually just furthers the right wing meme and gets their base riled up.

[Old and In the Way]

108. had it been Democrats creating aHomeland Security or TSA, they'd have screamed about the implication

Cynical hypocrites.

[Kablooie]

13. Negotiation wouldn't be a problem but this is not negotiation.

This is clear cut extortion.
There is no opening to discuss I'll accept this if you give me that.
It's simply DO AS I SAY OR I'LL DESTROY YOU.

You don't give in to demands like that even if it does destroy you.

[nxylas]

59. And they will *never* be satisfied

"Negotiation" implies two rational parties with conflicting demands agreeing a mutually acceptable compromise. But the GOP's entire raison d'etre is opposing everything Obama proposes, even if it was their idea in the first place. Any "negotiation" would go something like this:-

GOP: We want a bill to say that kittens are adorable, and we'll shut down the government unless we get it.
President Obama: I don't have a problem with that. Kittens are adorable.
GOP: OOOH, AH HATE KITTENS! WE WANT A BILL TO EXTERMINATE EVERY ROOTIN' TOOTIN' LAST ONE OF 'EM!

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

63. WTF are the Dems expected to negotiate on?

The GOP isn't asking for a negotiation, and when the Dems, in the past, put one forward (see extending Bush II tax cuts) it is only half as bad as the original. Half as bad isn't really that good at all.

[kardonb]

76. GOP

GOP house = domestic terrorists !

[B Calm]

2. Time to play hard ball with the bastards!

[yuiyoshida]

89. agree!

In the End the Democrats will win, and the Republicans Right wingers will lose... I firmly believe it.

[Recursion]

3. Often all you can do is make things get worse by as little as possible (nt)

[quakerboy]

97. When you are driving directly toward a cliff

Would you prefer to go over the edge with a faster or slower speed?

[rhett o rick]

5. Have the Conservative Democrats stepped up and committed themselves

that we need to not negotiate with these conservative Republican bastards?

[DonCoquixote]

6. In all fairness

I was pleasantly surprised to see Bill Clinton say we need to "call their bluff." That will enable the center-right top stand rigid when we need them to

[rhett o rick]

8. That's a good point. This really should be something the liberals and the conservative Democrats

could agree on.

[delrem]

21. If the Dems in power can't agree on this one, they aren't worth supporting

and a new party is needed.

[Scuba]

42. +8,749

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

64. Heretic! Heretic!

How do you dress the truth in overt fashion!

[DissidentVoice]

66. YES! YES! YES!

If the Dems in power are so DLC/Third Way that they don't see the need to present a united front against the far right, they are not worth MY support.

[Chaco Dundee]

84. and we should not

There idea of negotiation is to get an opening to run over you.would you like me to shoot you in the face,or would you prefer it in the balls? Thar is not negotiation.

[99Forever]

7. With you 100% Manny.

Given the history however, I expect Barack Obama to fold like a cheap suit. It's what he does, over and over and over ... ad nausium.

[Marrah_G]

9. No , I don't

[mazzarro]

10. If PBO and Democrats Cave

They will set back future Democratic presidents in their dealing with reThuglican congress. Democratic presidents will never again be taken seriously by the reThugs for a long time. And I'll bet that we will see further dominance of the Democratic party by the DLC/Third Way adherents who will advocate moving the party further to the right to gain more favor with corporate oligarchy. IOW we will have a pretend Democratic Party that is in essence a reThuglican-Lite Party masquerading as a liberal party.

[beerandjesus]

48. And in some candid interview a few years from now....

...when asked his biggest regret, Obama will say, "caving on that hostage negotiation."

Last time I checked though, they were still looking pretty good on holding firm............

[99th_Monkey]

11. I don't want my Guv-Mint negotiatin' with terrorism, especially financial terrorism aka extortion nt

[Hekate]

12. Obama didn't cave on Syria and he's not going to cave on this

[pnwmom]

14. I agree. It's got to end and it should be now. n/t

[longship]

15. By all means, let's set our our hair on fire before the fact.

Love you madly, Manny. But, unless you're pulling a third way or fourth way here, I cannot figure out what you're about.

When one mixes up ones narratives, even in satire or whatever so called creative narrative one chooses, the only and inevitable result is that one will be misinterpreted.

As shall ye sow, so shall ye reap.

I love Third Way Manny. But it's becoming increasingly difficult to discern the multitude of Manny's one from the other.

There's a point where one can stretch a metaphor too far.

I post this with the greatest respect for what you are apparently trying to do. My argument is that it is not working too well.

You are welcome to disagree.

[MannyGoldstein]

18. Updated post to clarify it's the real me nt

[zeemike]

16. At some point you have to stand up to bullies.

Because if you don't they always want more from you...they never curb their urges for more.
And that is what the Tea Party is, bullies.
And the bullies always mistake kindness, a desire for peace and understanding for weakness.
Fuck that shit, punch them in the noes if you have to, because the blood must flow before they will quit it...that is all they understand in their primitive thinking.

[99th_Monkey]

17. It's a Good Cop v. Bad Cop situation Manny.

Wash. DC is just the "Punch & Judy Show" for anyone naive enough
to still be clinging to quant notions of "democracy", "liberty", etc.
Kind of like bread & circuses.

Is a useful illusion, but only until the long-awaited much-dreaded "Zappa
Moment" transpires, when "They" take down all the scenery and there's
nowhere to left to go except a brick wall.

[agent46]

19. If the Dems cave

If the Dems cave, it will be a brilliant long term chess move that will absolutely decimate the power of the republican party in the 2024 presidential elections.

I think they should cave!

[joshcryer]

22. Remember this classic BBI thread? "Why the Supreme Court Should Kill ‘Obamacare’"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002476222

Remember when you mocked "reality based" posters for wanting ACA to be upheld?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=482062

Glad you've joined the light side. It's good that people previously for the ACA failing are now behind the President on keeping it.

[MannyGoldstein]

26. Um, are you saying that I said it *shouldn't* be upheld?

Or that I said I *didn't want* it to be upheld?

Please be clear here. Otherwise people might get the wrong impression of me, and neither of us wants that.

[joshcryer]

29. The context was how long until we got health care if it wasn't.

Most of the people making that argument at that time were ambivalent if it wasn't upheld. Some believed if it was overturned, shockingly, we'd get health care in due course, who cares one way or another.

It's charming to see those people, the ambivalent, now having the back of Democrats who passed it to begin with.

[MannyGoldstein]

31. "most of the people"... "some believed"... "those people"...

Let's get down to brass tacks here.

First off, even if I did root for SCOTUS to overturn ACA - which I did not, despite your vague aspersions otherwise - this is about hostage taking, not about the ACA.

Second, I'd appreciate if you stopped misstating my positions.

[joshcryer]

33. This is about the ACA as much as it is hostage taking.

You'll remember they did this before. In the middle of a massive recession. Where billions were about to lose their unemployment. And guess what? Obama reupped the Bush tax cuts. We all hated it. But I understood why it was done. It was a raw deal. I still understood why it was done.

Now that things are looking better now and now that Obama has got some more experience under his belt (and no doubt the Iran/Syria wins lately has boosted his confidence from being the most torn down President in my lifetime), now it looks like he's about to flip off the idiots in Congress.

You made a sad OP invoking Godwin in the title, I remember it well. Basically you supported keeping ACA around but you "understood" those who had a "profound disappointment" that the ACA wasn't "struck down."

[MannyGoldstein]

47. I'm proud of that post, reproduced below

Let's see if it demonstrates *any* of the things that you're implying... that I thought the ACA should be struck down, that I wanted it to be struck down, ...

Hitler liked dogs, so if you like dogs...

For the record, I'm very happy that ACA remained fundamentally intact today. ACA is terribly weak tea, but it's not water.

I just popped on to DU and I see a bevy of threads savaging folks who wanted to see ACA taken out. I saw a thread insinuating that if anyone is disappointed by today's ruling, they are likely a lunatic Republican.

Look, I disagree with Democrats who wanted ACA struck down. I understand their profound disappointment. But they are not Republicans any more than dog lovers are Nazis. Democrats are disappointed because they wanted strong tea. Republicans wanted water. Big, big difference.

It has of late become fashionable and acceptable on DU to call people trolls, Republicans, liars, and worse, simply because we disagree with them. That's crap. It should stop.

It's fine to disagree. Even to strongly disagree. And to be blunt about a disagreement. But name calling is simply the refuge of a person who can't defend their ideas. This isn't grade school - either win the argument on the merits, or rethink your argument.

Hmmm... I''m not seeing any of the things that you claim. Maybe someone else can.

As to Obama "winning" on Syria - that will go down as the moment when he lost control of the Democrats in Congress. If that vote had gone forward, it would have been a route, but not in the direction that you might want. Notice that once that vote was lost, Democrats on the Senate Banking Committee told our Democratic President to stick Larry Summers where the sun don't shine. That's not something that happens often.

[ProSense]

60. It's Obamacare.

It's Obamacare.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023715400

Seniors benefit.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023715400#post1

Mental health and addiction treatment covered
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023715400#post20

Multi-state plans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023715400#post56

Accountable Care Organizations
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023715400#post57

Single Payer movement in the era of Obamacare
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023715400#post10

Bottom line: Obamacare really is for the 99%
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023715400#post38

Good stuff!

POLL: Voters Are ‘Unmoved’ By Government Shutdown Drama, Still Don’t Want To Delay Obamacare
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023751236

[treestar]

80. Good catch.

Those who wanted the court to overturn it should have no problem with any "caving" that will undermine it. So we see what's really going on here.

[jsr]

23. Couldn't agree with you more, 1st Way Manny.

[Rex]

24. Like a clock.

Thanks, I'm sure they will finally tell the GOP to go fuck itself. Lord knows the TBs are trying hard to gnaw through the final ropes and constraints.

[JDPriestly]

25. Right. The Republicans are like the two-year-olds who refuse to eat healthy food

until they get their favorite flavor of ice cream.

Mothers who care about their two-year-olds don't give in on that demand. Not once. Not twice.

Because good, nutritious food is vital to the good health of a two-year-old.

The Republicans want to spend the money of our nation on the stuff they really like -- like the military and NSA surveillance -- instead of on health care for the poor and middle classes.

[MannyGoldstein]

27. My 13-year-old still does that

#$%&

But at least he's a flaming Liberal! Recently told me that he found this cool new program on the Internet, something called "The Young Turks". I couldn't tell him that I watch it too, because then he'd stop watching it. Because I suck, don't you know?

Sigh.

[JDPriestly]

28. Wait until he is 23. He'll be a wonderful person.

[truebluegreen]

55. Might take until 30.

[Nay]

78. Yep. That's about how long it took for mine.

[truebluegreen]

81. I hear you.

[ffr]

36. I've been witness to this for years

Only problem, is these 2 year olds have equal adult authority.

Find a way to revoke that and you have a game changer.

[blkmusclmachine]

30. The DEM Party is a ruse to fool the little people into thinking they have a choice.

1 Party, 2 Faces

[Scuba]

43. There's an old saw - "The only reason the Democratic Party exists ...

.... is so that there's no alternative to the Republicans."

[SunSeeker]

90. Bullshit. California is a prime example.

The difference between a Republican-run California and a Democratic run California is like the difference between night and day.


Good thing most Californians don't listen to you. They voted Dems into all branches of government (most notably the governor's office) in 2010 while Dems in the rest of the country stayed home. We went from a budget deficit to a budget surplus by raising taxes. It saved our schools and turned unemployment around. We're still not completely dug out of the hole that Republican idiot Schwartzenegger put us in, but life has vastly improved here. Vastly.

[Scuba]

91. I presume you're suggesting the old saw is bullshit, not my claim that it exists ...

... I agree there's a difference, and we're seeing the results of that in California. And, sadly, Wisconsin.

On the federal front, however, the difference is smaller. Much smaller.




Thanks to DUer RC for this great graphic.

[SunSeeker]

92. Of course I am aware of that "old saw."

If you agree that there is a difference, why would you repeat that vote-depressing garbage?

[Scuba]

94. It's not the old saw that depresses votes ...

... it's the degree to which it's true.

If the Democrats running in national elections would adopt a platform that included ....

... Medicare for All, including dental, optical and hearing aids

... Strengthening and expanding Social Security

... Living wage

... Legalized pot

... Big cuts to defense/homeland/spy agency spending

... Increasing taxes on the wealthy

... then they would lose a few "moderate" Democrats at the polls. But they would gain tens of millions of votes from the 50% of voters who don't bother because neither party offers them squat.

[SunSeeker]

95. It is not true. Period. nt

[Scuba]

98. 'Tis.

[SunSeeker]

99. "Tis" what? You just agreed the parties are not the same.

This thread is a call for Dem party unity in the face of the Republican onslaught. Sad that you want to use it to bitch about how Dems aren't pure enough for you.

[Scuba]

101. 'Tis true.

It's not enough to have Democratic "unity". We must also be true to our values. That "not pure enough" slur is pathetic considering this ...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014336360

[SunSeeker]

104. Of course we need more than unity. But your "old saw" is bullshit.

You already agreed the parties are different. You know that assertion that there is no choice is wrong. Now you are just replying with childish retorts as you try to change the subject. The subject of this thread is party unity on this budget hostage issue. The president just stated in a press briefing that he would not negotiate. And yet you want to bitch about how Obama once joked that he would have been seen as a moderate Republican in the 1980s. You angrily cite the link to that line, apparently to prove your assertion that Dems, and this President, are not pure enough for you. Now THAT is pathetic.

The President IS holding true to Dem values on this. I don't understand why you and your buddy up the thread felt the need to bash the Dems and our President when they are doing exactly what we want In this stalemate.

[liberal_at_heart]

53. +1

[SunSeeker]

100. Do you really think Dems are the same as the GOP? nt

[SunSeeker]

87. The party of Elizabeth Warren is not the same as the party of Louie Gohmert.

Why are you a member of Democratic Underground? You do realize voting for Dems is a TOS, right?

[Zorra]

32. Solidarity. nt

[BlueCheese]

34. I have utter confidence that the ACA will survive.

Obama views that as a personal accomplishment-- indeed, his signature personal accomplishment. There is no way he will bargain that away.

Other things, like lower marginal income tax rates, the estate tax rate, chained CPI, etc. have been bargaining chips and have been put on the table. The ACA will never be while Obama is president. The Republicans can go pound sand on that one.

[BrotherIvan]

39. Winner

They'll stomp their feet about ACA, which the President won't give, but then they'll get EVERY. OTHER. DAMN. THING. THEY. WANT. I wish I could put money on it.

[beerandjesus]

49. My concern exactly.

They won't get the ACA. But they're asking for shit that Obama already wasn't all that firm on... like, oh, pretty much everything else.

My money would be on the right-wingers getting Keystone, with means-testing Medicare second. But I'm still hoping.......

[truebluegreen]

56. If he gives them anything they'll be back for more.

I think our Ivy-educated President has figured that out. I hope he has. I'd sure hate it if the Grand Bargainer in Chief reappeared.

[SunSeeker]

88. He has. He just said that in his statement in the press room this afternoon.

The Republicans are demanding a 1year delay of the ACA just for passing a 3-month continuing resolution. Obama said if we give in to the hostage taking now, "Does anybody truly believe we won't have this fight again in a couple months?"

There's a good summary of the key points he made over at DailyKos.com.

[truebluegreen]

93. Excellent!

I haven't been watching/listening, just waiting...

[sabrina 1]

74. I would hope that he would not bargain away SS either, through the deceptive chained CPI. The

people's interests are what matter here, not whether or not a politician's personal interests/reputation might be at stake. However I am glad you are confident that he is willing to fight when something is important enough to him. I sure hope SS is on that list or no one is going to take any excuses for caving on anything that chips away at that most Democratic of programs.

[BrotherIvan]

82. But only if he wants something different than the Rs want

But most importantly what BFF Jamie Dimon wants. And in the case of SS, tax rates, bank regulation and the environment, he's been more than willing to "compromise". Jeez, have I become this cynical?

[Mister Ed]

35. Screw the GOP. If holding the nation hostage works for them, they'll do it again and again. n/t

.

[jsr]

37. Precisely. Their behavior must not be rewarded.

[Jasana]

38. If the Dems cave, things will not get better.

"Appease, capitulate, plummet. Repeat." You are spot on with this assessment.

[KG]

44. there's been nothing in recent history to think they won;t cave.

[Scuba]

45. Caving would be a strong message to all Americans, telling them ....

... that the Republicans have all the best ideas and the Democrats should just quit.

The extortion must stop, now.

[fadedrose]

46. I'm with you, Manny

And I'm fed up with the good manners of the Democratic party. Sometimes a situation calls for being aggressive and if it ain't now, later will be too late.

[CrispyQ]

50. The dems have been caving since Reagan poked fun at the word liberal.

We look weak, we are weak. If that wasn't true, we wouldn't have a party that's right of the center. The Prez & the party need to stand firm on this.

Looks like first course of action today is writing letters to my reps.

[Bluenorthwest]

51. The whole centrist mantra of 'bipartisan orgy room politics' has always left me cold.

The Obama method of praising Coburn and Grassely while bad mouthing Democrats has always been a losing tactic and an embarrassment.
If Obama and his end of this Party finally stop wanking the Republicans on demand I will be happy. I have zero idea about how to support some politician who says 'Republicans are honest and have good ideas we need at the table'. To me, those are the words of a giant sap and I do not support saps.

[truebluegreen]

57. +100

[Nay]

79. ++ a million. nt

[Frustratedlady]

52. If the Dems or Obama give in, we'll never have the upper hand again!

People have been comparing the Repugs to a 2-year old brat. Forget that! This would be like trying to reason with a spoiled teenager on steroids. Good grief, the Democrats are being referred to as the adults in the fight. Act like one and stand your ground when the demands are made. They are in no position to demand anything. The time to argue the healthcare law was long ago and I'll bet a dime to a donut they still haven't read the thing. Cruz is the type that if you give him an inch he'll demand a mile. He needs to grow up.

If the Democrats give in, I'm done.

[liberal_at_heart]

54. It would not surprise me at all if the democrats took this deal.

[Romulox]

58. Things have gotten worse in this country for virtually every year I've been alive.

Chances are, the trend will continue.

[ReRe]

61. Of course the media is doing it's part...

... to side with the teabaggers. If Democrats on the Hill listen to main stream media (and many of them do), then they might back down. All weekend the media ran down the ACA. I don't think PO will back down, Manny. I expect PO to pull a rabbit out of his hat before midnight to keep the USG up and running. There's no way to stop the ACA now. It's the law. Eff the domestic terrorists in this country. Eff 'em all.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

62. Let's hope that the GOPiggies blink on this. If they don't it will indeed be painful for many.

How many times has our side blinked with approval and excuses from many on DU?

[TBF]

65. The thing that makes democrats wonderful -

caring for others, sensitivity, concern for the greater good - is also unfortunately the thing that can make folks weak at times.

I see it so much on this site. Folks "venting", wanting to compromise, wanting to be the bigger person --

the thing is with repugs (and any other fascists we are fighting against) it just will not work. When someone is sensitive they smell weakness and attack harder.

Obama should continue to call their bluff and let the babies shut down the government. If he's really good he'll offer to donate his salary to charity during the stoppage. That would throw all of it right back in their faces.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

67. Blackmailers never stop. Give in on this debt blackmail & get blackmailed on the next debt round. nt

[saidsimplesimon]

68. The "beginning of the end of this garbage"

NOW is the time to ignore, no comment, all attempts by ideologues to engage US in battle. Let them take their spoon full of medicine. Democrats will hold or increase in membership of Congress if we can remain united.

I'm very disappointed in Mayor Bloomberg's promise to stand with politicians who supported stricter weapon's background checks. Disappointed because the reality did not match the hype.

Thank you Manny.

[Efilroft Sul]

69. This showdown is the redline for not only the ACA, but also…

…Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, and a whole host of other programs that help people. If the Democrats capitulate or "compromise" on the ACA or these other programs, it's game over for not just the party at large, but for millions of Americans, who are far more important.

Even if you want single payer like I do and think we could do better, STAND NOW.

[Oilwellian]

72. Indeed n/t

[lastlib]

70. If they cave now, there is NO HOPE for this once-great nation.

[Ikonoklast]

75. If.

They won't no matter how much that galls you.

[Bobbie Jo]

110. Didn't.

[Ikonoklast]

111. Tears From The Democrat Bashers.

[dkf]

77. Isn't the problem that no one is willing to "capitulate" anymore?

You can't have negotiations without someone capitulating. The preferable result is that both sides give up something to come to a sensible middle.

Being stubborn while playing chicken ends up with 2 dead birds.

[Hubert Flottz]

83. No...

It will just embolden the teabagger terra-ists!

[MirrorAshes]

85. Not going to happen.

But your concern is duly noted.

[HereSince1628]

86. EVER is a very very long time. I think within "ever" there could be better times.

Maybe not in my life-epectancy, but within 'ever'. Yep, I do.

[quakerboy]

96. Im just waiting for moderate Manny

to ask "if republicans cave now, do you really think things will ever get better?"...

[Nimyth]

102. One Word - Sequestration

No it will only gets worse, this is exactly how we ended up with the sequestration- one side kept their half of the bargain (hence all the cuts) But the other side (Repugs) blew off repealing the tax cuts for the 1% and the other pieces of the so called 'grand bargain'

[gopiscrap]

103. Welcome to DU

[Nimyth]

105. Thank You

Well Met- Nice to meet u

[gopiscrap]

106. You're welcome, hope you have a good time here.

[gopiscrap]

109. Welcome to DU

[marble falls]

107. Caving in is what got us here. Bipartisanship requires movement by both parties...

finally some Republicans are starting to get it. I got it before the end of W's first term.