A whole lot of people will be hurt if the Dems don't give in to the Republican demands.

[Jackpine Radical]

That is simply true. It is a fact. People will die because they didn't surrender "compromise."

However, a whole lot more will be hurt, and hurt far more severely, if they DO give in. many more people will die. The ACA, for all its faults, will save many lives.

And if the Dems even give in so far as to sweeten the pot with Chained CPI, Keystone, or whatever, the damage will be incalculable and multi-generational.

Compromise on this one--compromise with a gang of domestic terrrorists--is no more acceptable than compromise with Islamists in a shopping mall.

[tblue37]

1. Furthermore, ANY negotiation would just embolden the

hostage-takers to even more outrageous behavior in the future.

[Jackpine Radical]

2. Eggzackly.

[mountain grammy]

6. I lost a dear friend 2 years ago because she didn't have health insurance

and was too proud to ask for help. Died at 65, 2 weeks after getting her Medicare card, from an untreated condition. Medicare paid for her final week in a coma.
The point is, her favorite expression was "eggzackly!" I can hear her saying that now.

[Jackpine Radical]

7. Maybe I channeled her.

[mountain grammy]

12. Ha, ha! Believe me, if she was in your head, you'd know it!

I always like being reminded of her.

[MoonRiver]

30. Very sorry for your loss.

It's heartbreaking that in a country this rich people die needlessly because they can't access health care.

[Arkansas Granny]

3. That's it in a nutshell. There comes a time when you have to plant your feet and push back.

I think this is the time. It's the old adage of give them an inch and they'll take a mile.

[tblue37]

5. I like to say that if you let the camel get his nose into the tent,

pretty soon you have camel snot all over everything.

We are getting Teabagger snot all over our country!

[tavernier]

11. Guess what day it is??

😄

(I love the TV camel)

[ieoeja]

27. It's Monday. Go home, Camel, you're drunk.

[pangaia]

102. Ah, yes, camel snot.

I hope you don't mind but I copied your 'oh so accurate' analogy and sent it to President Obama in an email.

[Myrina]

8. In all honesty, it was time for POTUS to plant feet & push back 2+ years ago.

But I'll take it now rather than never at all.

[Jackpine Radical]

19. He didn't see the point in pushing back

until they finished pushing him where he wanted to go.

[Myrina]

26. Ssssh!!

You'll offend the people with the endless blue hyperlinks!!

[Jackpine Radical]

34. Sheesh-I forgot the down-staircase of events that can follow

a senseless and randome comment like this. Won't cha forgive my dithering? If you'll but grant me a cart, I'll fetch you something fresh from the west to put on your tree.

[Myrina]

36. ROFL

That made my Monday!!!

[Divernan]

37. Brilliant!

[Enthusiast]

66. I cannot abide

dithering. There is just no excuse for it.

[RetroLounge]

92. Wisconsin Represent!

RL

[SammyWinstonJack]

29. heh.

And look how well that is working out for him now.

[JustAnotherGen]

21. ITA

[n2doc]

4. Yep. And they are only extending funding for a few months

So we will be right here, again, in December. Gotta stop this crap now.

[Orsino]

9. Yes. Good policy cannot come from today's Congress...

...but some of it's been pretty good, and we must not let that be taken away.

[Octafish]

10. Where is President Obama on all this?

Why doesn't he make a case to the American people? A TV address or two explaining the situation and what needs to be done would go a long way to deciding things in favor of the People.

Nothing like a few million phone calls to Capitol Hill to put the fear of working for a living into Congress.

[leftstreet]

15. +1 He should consider the Syria reaction!

No doubt a few million phone calls had an impact

[jeff47]

28. Why?

Polling shows the country's already on his side. Massively. Today's poll only had 7% support for a shutdown. Despite 93% opposition, Republicans are doing it anyway.

If he makes a TV address, it becomes about him. We want it to be about the teabaggers and the House. For now, Obama should simply say "please proceed".

[truebluegreen]

31. Why? Those who don't already understand won't listen.

This is a fight in Congress and even more in the Republican Party. They are melting down and splitting apart at the seams--let them do it! Adding Obama to the mix will just give them an outside enemy to focus on.

The Republican establishment sowed the wind when they recruited these yahoos, now they are reaping the whirlwind. May it give them joy!...it certainly makes me smile (despite the cost to many Americans...but if not now, when?)

[IrishAyes]

43. Where is President Obama on all this?

All over tv, that's where. Where have you been yourself? In a self-woven cocoon? Listen and you shall hear.

[Schema Thing]

57. thank you

[Octafish]

63. Sorry, I must not watch as much tee vee as I should.

My question was intended to help spark a presidential address to the nation.

The bully pulpit makes a wonderful platform for getting everyone to focus on the issue at the same time.

It also would skip the MOCKINGBIRD middle man.

[snooper2]

68. "My question was intended to help spark a presidential address to the nation."

Thanks!

[Octafish]

71. President Obama is letting the pukes frame the debate, again.

While not on the same level, it's sad that you find that funny.

You know, an emoticon really does sum you up, snooper2.

[snooper2]

72. No he isn't, but I think you know that

You don't like smilies

I'll light a candle for you

[Octafish]

73. How profound.

Don't you remember how the GOP framed the debate in 2011?

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/3079:goodbye-to-all-that-reflections-of-a-gop-operative-who-left-the-cult

They're doing it again.

[IrishAyes]

78. You hardly need to own a tv in order to be aware of all the public relations

coming from the WH directly or from close associates like Bill Clinton.

The president also makes regular addresses to the nation as well as live press conferences. I find your claims of laxness rather disingenuous; at least more appropriately descriptive of yourself instead of President Obama. And I rather imagine you're fully aware of this.

[Octafish]

79. Disingenuous? Like the time I promised to veto everything but single-payer?

"I am absolutely determined that by the end of the first term of the next president, we should have universal health care in this country," the Illinois senator said.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-01-25-obama-health_x.htm

Guess it's taking a little longer. He certainly hasn't explained why.

Or are you talking about disingenuous like the time I promised to jail the banksters, but hired them to oversee the bailout and the federal economy instead.

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2013/08/the-banksters-master-irony-push-summers-geithner-for-fed-due-to-their-regulatory-zeal.html

Or are you talking about the I was so disingenuous I cracked down on the small time Food Stamp fraudsters instead.

http://www.salon.com/2011/12/06/why_no_ones_investigating_wall_street/

Thanks for reminding me, IrishAyes, there are a lot more examples of when I was disingenuous, in addition to public relations.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=797594

[Isoldeblue]

82. I agree with IrishAyes

Your (#10) post was disingenuous and made with willful ignorance, as well. Btw, the POTUS just spoke today, making a case for the American people.

Not soon enough for you on a Monday?

[Octafish]

85. Well, I posted originally at 10:15 this morning before the address was announced.

So, there is that.

[IrishAyes]

83. Everything POSSIBLE has been done; if you want to carp about what remains,

go ahead. But I'm done reading you. If President Obama walked on water, you'd be the first to yell, "Hey, look! He can't even swim!"

[Octafish]

86. Too bad. So sad.

I mentioned he needs to speak directly to the American people. Who knows? If he had done so in his first two years, when he had a historic electoral mandate, majorities in both houses of Congress, and a once in a generation momentum for change there might have been no need for me to be so disingenuous as to point out the facts.

[Isoldeblue]

91. Your putting your responsibilty of being

disingenuous on Obama???!!? That IF, he had spoken, according to YOUR appropriate amount of times, that "there might have been no need for me to be so disingenuous as to point out the facts."

What an amazingly false argument. I think you may be a fish out of water, here......

You need to get over your self.

[Octafish]

94. It's been five years. I don't have my hopes up for much change.

Especially after Penny Pritzker got the Cabinet job.

Get over myself. Really?

[Isoldeblue]

96. History will prove you

very wrong and make a liar out of you.

For some weak reasons, nothing Obama does will ever be good enough for you. Fortunately, the real truth is that people will benefit from all the good he has done (more than most any other President), these past five years, despite whatever you think or chose to believe. And that's all that matters. The reality of which you ignore.

Knock yourself out w/ODS.... but it doesn't change the truth.

[Octafish]

99. Show where I am wrong and I will apologize for making a mistake. Otherwise, don't call me a liar.

I stand behind what I write. I've got my journals on DU3 and DU2. They're not perfect, but they are representative of what I' have posted on DU over the years.

PS: Remember Greg Palast? Does he have ODS, too? "What would Goldman think?"

[Octafish]

97. Show me where I posted something that was not true.

Otherwise, my argument stands.

[Isoldeblue]

88. So true!

The ones who are the quickest to criticize President Obama, often falsely, are saying more about themselves as a person, than about him, it seems to me..............

[Blanks]

51. I just got an email from him.

He wants money. So does Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi and the DCCC.

Apparently there's a fundraising deadline.

[MADem]

54. He's letting the GOP put their foot in it and take the blame. Smart move, IMO.

What "case" needs to be made? You'd have to be completely dull of comprehension to not realize who the assholes are in this equation.

Those jerks aren't answering their phones--they could give a shit who calls them. They know their gerrymandered districts; anyone complaining is likely calling from outside their voting bloc.

[muriel_volestrangler]

62. Prez: Government Shutdown Won’t Stop Obamacare

Tells Republicans it's not up for debate

President Barack Obama said Saturday that his signature health care reform law will move forward next week even in the event of a government shutdown.

Obama, in his weekly Internet and radio address, said the so-called exchanges where Americans will be able to comparison shop for health insurance will open Tuesday as planned. Congressional Republicans have been trying to use the looming expiration of government funding to strip funding from and otherwise gut the law. But Obama reiterated that neither the threat of a government shutdown nor the looming need to increase the debt limit put the health care law up for debate again.

“No one gets to threaten the full faith and credit of the United States of America just to extract ideological concessions,” Obama said. “No one gets to hurt our economy and millions of innocent people just because there are a couple laws you don’t like.”

Obama said he wants the public’s help in getting the word out about the exchanges.

http://swampland.time.com/2013/09/28/prez-government-shutdown-wont-stop-obamacare/

[The Wizard]

70. Nothing comes of caving in to extortionists

[LittleBlue]

64. Correct. Look at this poll

ccording to the poll, which was conducted Friday through Sunday, 46% say they would blame congressional Republicans for a government shutdown, with 36% saying the president would be more responsible and 13% pointing fingers at both the GOP in Congress and Obama.

"The number who would hold congressional Republicans responsible has gone down by 5 points since early September, and the number who would blame Obama is up 3 points in that same time," said CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. "Those changes came among most demographic groups."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/30/politics/cnn-poll-shutdown-blame/?hpt=hp_t1

While the GOP holds a solid 10 point blame margin, there has been an 8 point swing in favor of Rethugs.

Obama should make his point to the public so that this margin isn't so close.

[Octafish]

74. Talking About Obamacare: Does Policy Debate Matter?

By Bill Gardner
Washington Monthly blog, August 02, 2013 10:45 AM

American politicians have debated the Affordable Care Act since it was introduced to Congress in 2009. Have these debates affected what citizens think about the ACA? Daniel Hopkins can’t find evidence that those myriads of words mattered.

So, health policy bloggers: If Reid, Boehner, and McConnell can’t sway public opinion, despite the audiences they command, what do you hope to accomplish?

Hopkins is interested in the relationship between, on the one hand, the public debate about the ACA carried on in the media by the political elite and, on the other hand, public attitudes toward the ACA. To study the elite debate, he gathered 1488 press releases about the ACA issued by Senators in 2009 and 2010. To study public attitudes, he obtained text written by 30,000 survey respondents to the Kaiser monthly survey of public opinion on health policy. These masses of text allowed him to look at how elite debate and public attitudes evolved over time.

Hopkins then applied some very cool data mining technology to determine what the elites and the public were thinking as the debate progressed. His statistical methods found clusters of co-occurring words in the press releases and survey answers. These clusters formed meaningful rhetorical patterns. For example,

Supporters… make heavy use of a frame emphasizing universal access and affordability…, one defined by words such as “access,” “affordable,” “provide,” and “universal.”

Opponents of the ACA used different words.

For mass- and elite-level opponents of the ACA, the legislation’s cost and the increased governmental role it authorized were central reasons behind their opposition.

Hopkins interpreted these word patterns as ‘frames’, that is, contexts of meaning that structured how people thought about the ACA. Classic studies by Tversky and Kahneman showed that manipulating the framing of a survey question strongly affects how people understand and respond to the facts in that question.

Issue frames are rhetorical structures which emphasize a subset of the considerations relevant to an issue. Political issues are usually complex, giving elites the capacity to focus on aspects of the problem that advantage their side of the argument.

CONTINUED with links...

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ten-miles-square/2013/08/talking_about_obamacare_does_p046174.php

PS: Thanks for grokking, LittleBlue. I don't blame Americans for not knowing the facts or big picture. I blame Corporate McPravda and Washington and their owners.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

89. He made the case. Happy now?

[L0oniX]

13. Expecting rich people in government to do what's right and good for the people???

I assume you are not holding your breath.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

14. Blackmailers never stop. Give in on this debt blackmail & get blackmailed on the next debt round. nt

[Shrike47]

22. Exactly. We have to hold firm.

[marble falls]

16. "You're going to shut down the government if you can't prevent .....

millions of Americans from getting affordable care," — Rep. Chris Van Hollen, D-Md., in comments after congressional Republicans vowed to keep using an otherwise routine federal funding bill to try to attack the president's health care law as the government teeters on the brink of partial shutdown.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

17. We are told that our President is an excellent speaker. Why can't he speak like this one?

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

"This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. . . . This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron."

[jeff47]

32. Because if he gave a speech, it would make the issue about him.

Right now, the focus is on the teabaggers and the House. We want the focus to remain there, because it's making the tea party brand toxic. Independents thought of them as just "small government conservatives". They're switching that opinion to "crazy nihilists". There's no reason to interrupt that conversion.

Some lovely oratory may get Obama quoted in 20 years, but it won't help the current issue.

[Doctor_J]

103. Did Ike's speech make the situation about him?

So you're saying Obama should never say anything on any subject?

Stop apologizing for the man. It's embarrassing to both of you

[jeff47]

105. Did Ike's speech fix anything?

Or has the situation gone even further?

You're putting massive value on the quote, but zero value on the effect.

Stop apologizing for the man. It's embarrassing to both of you

No, you're confusing that with your blind hatred.

[IrishAyes]

45. President Obama speaks as well if not better. You're just not listening.

[erronis]

95. These are not the 50's anymore

Fortunately, and unfortunately.

While there was incredible rabidity in the politicians (McCarthy), the public (KKK), and the virulent left-wing, it doesn't seem as coordinated and manipulated as today.

The media-is-the-message has reached a low ground in these later days. Ownership,via outright stock control, or via the pursuit of the advertisers filthy lucre has made media a conduit of their owners.

There has always been pink journalism as well as shill journalists for moneyed interests but I believe the ability to use ruse vehicles (Murdoch's empire), and internet communications, as well as the overwhelming influence of money has blocked most real reporting from reaching the masses. I imagine that every output from the "reporters" has to be processed, triaged, reworded, sanitized by the media "watchers".

Every output needs to meet the corporate goals. Flashy, sexy, eye-catching graphics, hot-button phrases, serious-looking pundits, red bowties or bit hairdos.

Thats why most of us are turning away from the plastic "media". I'd rather pick up a flyer in the local market than read some re-re-re-digested news in the MSM.

[Zorra]

18. I'd rather the republican terrorists hold me hostage than be allowed to do further damage my country

[Avalux]

20. Nope - no negotiating with terrorists.

That's the stance that needs to be taken here - as you point out, giving in to these assholes will cause a whole hell of a lot more damage - it will also give them confidence to continue their rampage of destruction.

[BlueStreak]

23. Actually a lot of billionaires will be hurt.

The market is way down to start the day Monday and that is nothing like the drop we'll take if they don't extend the debt ceiling and our credit rating drops again.

Yes, those problems trickle down on the average people, but in this case, the billionaires will feel the pain along with us.

[Jackpine Radical]

25. Indeed. Krugman's "Rebels Without a Clue" column in today's NYT makes that point precisely.

If we default, we destroy the world's faith in the rock-solid nature of our T Notes--among other problems.

[HereSince1628]

24. Maybe, Harry Reid has been storing dry powder like a Sam Houston

Now that the R's have bottled themselves in a morass of their own making, it's time for a San Jacinto two-step.

[IrishAyes]

46. That would be sweet.

[WovenGems]

33. National Policy

We do not negotiate with terrorists. EVER!!!!
And that goes for domestic ones too.

[Eleanors38]

35. Time to hammer back against the Far Right. They won't compromise. Run 'em down.

[IrishAyes]

47. Ladies and gentlemen, start your engines!

[ColesCountyDem]

38. You NEVER negotiate with people who think "What's mine is mine, but what's your's is negotiable". n/

[Jackpine Radical]

49. That's my dog's attitude about his treats & my ham sandwich.

[ColesCountyDem]

55. My basset's attitude, too.

LOL!

[jwirr]

39. We have got to stop giving the bully what he wants because it only encourages him to continue the

behavior. One reason they are so certain that we are going to cave is because of all the times we have before. It is high time to stop the action here and now.

[IrishAyes]

40. Yes, and I hope there is no compromise on this one... But

regardless of how it goes down, I say gain and hold every inch of ground possible, then continue to press onward with renewed determinination. He who laughs last...

[backscatter712]

41. We must demand the GOP's unconditional surrender on this.

No concessions, No compromises. No face-savers. Clean bill or nothing at all. Otherwise it'll enable future GOP extortion.

[greatlaurel]

42. The GOP is following the diaster capitalism playbook to the letter.

This is how disaster capitalism works. There are corporations that will make billions and billions of dollars from this. The Republican party has been taken over by these people and they are intent on bleeding every last cent from us. They have done this around the world with the help of people like Greenspan and the sociopath Milton Friedman.

This is the antithesis of free markets. They have no ideas for better products, so they come up with creative ways to steal public funds for profit.

[Jackpine Radical]

50. You're singing to the choir as far as I'm concerned.

Naomi Klein wrote a shockingly accurate tune there.

[arcane1]

53. Yep, this is a textbook example of creating a "crisis" to enact policies that everyone hates.

I love me some Naomi Klein

[fadedrose]

44. Like Businessweek said, "It's like a vaccination"

Who knows what horrible diseases they will put on us next to make more money?

[closeupready]

48. Agreed. K&R

[kentuck]

52. I predict....

The Repubs will get the Keystone pipeline out of this.

[Jackpine Radical]

58. Wouldn't surprise me.

I think Certain High Elected Officials* are looking to be pushed in that direction. Chained CPI might be another little giftie in the offing.



*Unnamed because I wouldn't want to BOG down the discussion

[wandy]

56. How we must react to republican threats. History............

The Soviet Union threatened Nuclear war, we stood fast.
Radical Religions threaten terrorism, we stand fast.
North Korea makes some kind of threat about every six months, we stand fast.
republicans threaten orderly government every chance they get.

It is time to see the republican menace as the danger it is and stand fast.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

59. I'm surprised the Republicans haven't been using threats of guns....

They know their supporters will gladly load up the pickup truck with guns and ammo,....and beer.

[Jackpine Radical]

61. Wow, that brings an image to mind.

"Hey Bubba, hold my beer an' watch this shot…"

[Spitfire of ATJ]

67. The only question is if they'll have any ammo left by the time they get to DC....

There's a whole lot of roadside signs along the way.

[MannyGoldstein]

60. Well said, thank you!

I'm proud to be a co-Warren-sigger with you!

[Enthusiast]

65. I think it's a pre-ordained kabuki ruse.

The plan is,

"Everyone has to give up something. The Republicans have agreed to live with Obamacare, we have agreed to Chained CPI. Everyone must eat their peas."

That might be verbatim but just watch and see if that isn't almost exactly what we are told.

[cui bono]

69. My problem with this OP is you framed it as the Dem's choice/responsibility.

I would say a whole lot of people will be hurt if Boehner doesn't put up the Senate bill for a vote. It's congress' responsibility to put a bill in front of Obama. Until that happens it's on them.

Or a whole lot of people will be hurt if Boehner keeps trying to extort the president. Or if Boehner keeps trying to retract a law that was voted in by congress and whose champion got reelected when running against someone who wanted to repeal said law.

It's pretty clear it's all on Boehner. We should not accept the Repthug framing. Ever.

[SunSeeker]

75. +1

[Cha]

81. Thank you.

[pacalo]

90. +1.

It's an attention-grabber, though.

[spanone]

76. the republicans are holding the american public hostage until they get their demands.

if foreign terrorists did this we would not tolerate it for 30 seconds.

[glinda]

77. We must look pretty stupid and weak to the rest of the world...

to be held hostage by a minority further confirms our dysfunction and corruption.

[Phlem]

80. Seems to me like a first major fight between the haves

and have not. And I don't think either side is backing down soon. If this doesn't happen we will all be "door mats" for generations to come.

We must win! We will win!

-p

[Rex]

84. And people need to understand that it is the GOP and ONLY the GOP

that has put us in this dire situation...with their star idiot reading Green Eggs and Ham and getting the moral of the story wrong. Did he even read it? Can he read?

[Drahthaardogs]

87. I will be furloughed (again) because of this shutdown.

And you know what? It is okay. It is the right thing to do. But, I am going to say this. I grew up in a union coal mining town. When the miners struck, the teachers, the grocers, the steel workers all pulled together and helped their union brothers out. They brought food, clothing, and paid electrical bills.

Now, if all of you really believe in this, SUPPORT THE EMPLOYEES HAMMERED BY THIS SHUTDOWN!

[michigandem58]

93. Maybe we should see a deal before we hate it?

As appealing as preemptive outrage is....

[Phlem]

104. A deal from Republiscams?

Good luck with that.

They are behaving like terrorists so your saying maybe we should negotiate with with them?

-p

[blkmusclmachine]

98. The DEMS will cave. The GOPee keeps them on a short leash.

[Jackpine Radical]

100. Well, let's hope not.

[bowens43]

101. bullshit. no one is going to die if they dont comprimise

[hue]

106. I trust/have faith that President Obama will stand our ground against the Re/Teapuke thugs!!

[Jackpine Radical]

107. Let's hope so, anyway.