Just remember: if Democrats cave now, Cruz and company will look like geniuses,

[MannyGoldstein]

saviors of their party.

Democrats are making the right noises now, which is GREAT! And I don't particularly expect them to cave his time. But if, God forbid! they do, it will be even worse than normal after the dust-up that's happened. The Cruz wing will have shown that they alone among the GOP had the temerity to fight Democrats mano-a-mano and win.

It wil suck - the crazies will be in full control of their party.

There is NO backing down now.

A little bit of trivia - most Germans thought Hitler was perilously crazy when, against the Treaty of Versailles, he re-armed the German military than starting grabbing territories from other countries. "Surely the Allies will attack us!!!" They thought. But the attacks never came, the territory was held, and Hitler became viewed by Germans as a genius of super powers who could pull off mayhem and stare down the Allies.

[Puzzledtraveller]

1. Would any deal mean a cave?

Because there will be some deal.

[MannyGoldstein]

2. After the Dems said that there would be zero deal?

Seems like a pretty bad move to do a deal then. Even "common-sense changes that both parties can agree on".

[kentuck]

5. It would mean that the Democrats would not take back the House...

If they stand strong, they have a chance of winning both House and Senate with a Democratic President for the next two years.

[Kablooie]

17. Yep. Any deal.

They already made a deal by giving the GOP exactly then budget they wanted.
If they give ANYTHING more before the shutdown ends it will be a huge victory for the tea party and they will be demanding even more next time.

I expect there will be a deal. The Democrats will try to play it down but it will be like sharks smelling blood to he tea party.
And Cruz will become even more powerful and begin to smash everything he can get his hands on.

The only hope is that Dems can get control of everything and rejigger the laws so this won't happen again.
But it will happen at least once more before next years election and probably more than that.
Who knows what the country will look like going into the 2104 elections?

Its scary.

[Heather MC]

3. Cave on what???

they are already giving them Paul Ryan's spending limits
They can't have ACA
so what is there to "cave" to on the dem side

[pscot]

9. The Grand Bargain

Entitlement "reform" is still lurking behind closed doors.

[Heather MC]

11. Oh yes Social Security Which is not an Entitlement

Uggh
I think we are thinking about this all wrong. We just need to become super rich selfish Jerks
How hard can it be they did.

hmm I seem to remember Mitt Romney Suggesting borrowing money from my parents
Dayum ok I will think of something

[JDPriestly]

20. Cutting Social Security and Medicare are what the Republican temper tantrum is really about.

Listen to Boehner's interview with Stephanopoulos. Stephanopoulos gets Boehner to admit that what he really wants are cuts in those programs. Listen to the entire program. It was last Sunday on ABC. Boehner said it plain as day.

That's why they want these White House negotiations. They want to do it all in private so that Americans won't know who is asking for the cuts. Of course, it is both Democrats and Republicans. They are all rich and think that Social Security is just a bother.

[valerief]

4. No, if they cave, it'll look like they're all in cahoots. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

6. They'll have accomplished the Full Shock Doctrine?

Ow.

[valerief]

7. The electrocution of America. nt

[robinlynne]

13. Hit the nail on the head.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

8. The Republicans know all about caves

[Demo_Chris]

10. Very true. It would be a disaster for us and a validation of them...

This time it is a battle for the future of both parties.

[robinlynne]

12. if Democrats cave period. And they (Dems) are talking about a "grand bargain" again.

[Dragonfli]

14. I have already been asked to support a bill that follows the grand bargain philosophy

A balanced, bipartisan deficit reduction package is the only alternative. Balance requires three elements: First, cuts in discretionary spending – not mindless, meat ax sequestration, but targeted, prioritized cuts. Second, we need to reform entitlement programs. And third, we must add federal revenue.

Carl Levin's bill
http://www.levin.senate.gov/newsroom/in_the_news/article/ending-tax-haven-loopholes-is-smart-way-to-bring-down-deficit/?section=alltypes#sthash.b2CcRVdm.dpuf

To sell it he labels it as a bill to fight loopholes, but it has Grand Bargain stains all over it, apparently, there is a great need to "reform entitlements", because as we know, the elderly, disabled, etc. aren't as poor as they need to be to stop their subsistence lifestyles supported by the earned benefits they paid for from somehow destroying the country.

Why is it that wealthy men eating lobster on the government dime think that the least well off among us are responsible for a debt created not by them but by the tax breaks and wars that benefit the wealthiest among us? Are they stupid, or do they just find the elderly, disabled and poor to be disgusting retches that deserve even less dignity than the poverty they currently "enjoy"?

[JDPriestly]

19. Money wasted on military adventures in hopeless countries like Afghanistan.

The U.S. has spent $55 billion to recruit, train and equip Afghan security forces. And as the U.S. and NATO transition from leading the fight against the Taliban to pushing the Afghans into the lead, the world will see what the U.S. got for its money.

One of the most closely watched initiatives undertaken by the 195,000-strong Afghan National Army (ANA) is its nascent quick-reaction capability, which has already cost tens of millions of dollars to field more than 300 of a planned 640 vehicles. The force will grow to a strength of seven kandaks — each about the size of a battalion — two of which will be special operations forces.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20130206/DEFREG04/302060012/Will-55B-Invested-Afghan-Forces-Pay-Off-

As I understand it Afghanistan elections are coming up. Wonder which crook will take over after we leave. We lost another $55 billion for absolutely nothing, but don't have enough to keep our seniors living like Americans of past generations.

Congress needs to do its job and save money on defense, not here in America. Why do we spend so much money on defense? We don't have very many factories any more? No one wants our GMO food. And if Congress doesn't even want to feed the American people if they are old, disabled or poor, what is it they are defending with their huge defense expenditures?

I just think the whole budget belt-tightening bit is a lie. They are just cheating the baby boomers. I will not vote for any Democrat who agrees to a deal that cuts Social Security and Medicare. I hope others will join me in that pledge.

That is where I will draw the line. There are other parties in this country. Democrats and Republicans are not the only ones. I have voted for Democrats in every election of my life, and that is a lot of elections, but I am not wedded to my party if it betrays me and other seniors.

[MannyGoldstein]

23. Levin has become a huge problem

He ended filibuster reform, and is pushing for austerity against the 99%.

Awful stuff.

[SaveAmerica]

15. WRONG!! I've seen so many comments EVERYWHERE that show

people of the US are well aware of what's going on and who is responsible. There's a cute delusional minority that is aligned with the tea party that still spouts those talking points but the rest - in the know! As a matter of a fact if our dems stopped the clock and fixed this most of the people would know exactly that it's for the good of this country, to save it.

[blue14u]

16. I say NO NO NO

No caving now. We are winning all over America. In

races by two digits.. In states (Michigan is turning on the REDS now)...

We can't stop now. Please no, I saw someone here on DU earlier, say we need to

be calling every republican office and tell them to stick it up you know where

politely to the answer clerk.. Then we must, WE MUST, call our people

all Democratic officials and let them know we are behind them all the way

and ask them to stand strong! Let them know we appreciate there strength in this..

NO TO CAVING ... Please. We are winning this.. Don't stop now...

[JDPriestly]

18. You are so right. And so many lessons must be learned from the experience of Germany.

Unfortunately too many Americans object to the German metaphor, the comparisons of Germany and the US. Too many Americans think "we are not like that," and say, "don't say that."

Those are the Americans who have never read about or studied what happened in Germany. Those who do not want to face the fact that what happened in Germany could very well happen here -- any time. We see the same mentality of exceptionalism and unwillingness to be critical of ourselves. In fact, what concerns me most is people who try to silence the comparisons and references to the German Fascist takeover.

It can happen anywhere when good people, people of conscience, people with democratic ideals, compromise in order to have peace with others at any price.

The Republicans in the House are 1/12 of the government. Four parts to Congress. (approximately 1/2 of each house of Congress belonging to one party). Then a little over half the Supreme Court is Republican. The rest of the government, and most of them elected by the people, are Democrats. The Republicans cannot hold the by far majority Democratic government hostage. If they wrench one single wish out of Democrats in this situation, they will continue relentlessly to throw tantrums and get their way. We really do have to hold out.

[King_Klonopin]

21. Perhaps the GOP is counting on it.

They expect the Dems to act like the responsible adults in
the room, thereby making the first move (i.e. capitulation)
to prevent harm to real people. Dems are the ones with a
conscience, and they are hoping to exploit it.

[AverageJoe90]

22. Not sure I get your point this time....someone please clarify, thanks. nt