Franklin teen unfazed by note condemning lion hunt

[Omaha Steve]

http://www.omaha.com/article/20131101/NEWS/131109927/1685#franklin-teen-unfazed-by-note-condemning-lion-hunt

Published Friday, November 1, 2013 at 1:00 am / Updated at 10:56 pm

By Jessica Kokesh

FRANKLIN, Neb. — Two weeks after Holden Bruce, 15, drew a license to hunt a mountain lion in the Pine Ridge Unit, he received a letter in the mail. Bruce is one of two people eligible to hunt mountain lions from Jan. 1 through Feb. 14 during Nebraska's inaugural cougar season.

He said the letter accused him of being a “sick person” for hunting a mountain lion. The letter also said his parents must not be raising him right because he will be hunting mountain lions. There was no signature. The letter was stamped in Omaha and had “animal lover” written across the front.

The teen said the letter didn't really bother him, but his mom, Michelle, was upset.

This will be Bruce's second mountain lion hunt. About three years ago, his mother organized a hunt in Arizona through the Hunt of a Lifetime Foundation. The nonprofit sets up hunting and fishing trips for youths who have been diagnosed with a life-threatening disease. When he was 12, he was diagnosed with a rare cancer that causes brain tumors.

FULL story at link.

[OneGrassRoot]

1. What do the hunters do with the cougars they kill?

I'd never heard of cougar hunting until this post. There's probably a hunting season for nearly every creature, in at least one state though.

If people eat the animals they kill, that's one thing. Trophy hunting is another to me.

Do people eat mountain lions?

[hobbit709]

2. Taco de gato grande.

[HereSince1628]

3. I remember stories about lion hunts in outdoor magazines but not recipes.

[NuclearDem]

22. Nah, they just hang the heads and pelts over their fireplace.

Which I mean if you were doing that with humans, it would be creepy or something, but with animals it makes them feel like big strong people.

[bitchkitty]

53. No. They drape the pelt over their penis

in the vain hope that it will make it grow.

[maxsolomon]

82. ugh, so tired of the "small penis" jokes

just as tired as prison rape jokes. i think there's probably lots of men with giant cocks that like hunting animals that don't need hunting, or driving hummers, or collecting private arsenals.

besides the "challenge", hunters like to kill predator species because they think that leaves more prey species like deer and elk for next fall. and fish and wildlife agrees to the exact extent they grant hunting licenses. in this case, 2 cougars.

i hope the kid strikes out and spends his time miserable, wet and cold.

[bitchkitty]

99. Except that it wasn't a joke.

I'm serious - I believe it's a dick thing. Sorry you're offended.

[maxsolomon]

106. I'm not offended. Killing apex predators for sport offends me.

Small Dick Humor is just too facile, too predictable in threads on topics like NASCAR, hunting, guns, sportscars. It's a standard go-to on DU, like, as I said, calling for a criminal to be raped in prison.

Curious - as a woman (i assume), do you really think that hunting a cougar as a 15 year old cancer survivor, or as a 60 year old GOP douchebag for that matter, is a conscious choice to compensate for undersized genitalia? Or is it subconscious?

Is there any equivalent compensatory behavior for women, or is this just a men-in-general problem?

[Ernesto]

103. just for you................

http://priuschat.com/threads/hummer-jokes-cartoons.32482/

[brucefamily6]

109. question

Dear "bitchkitty" ??- that says so much right there, anyway...........you must know some guys with huge dicks cause my sons last cougar pelt covers his entire bedroom wall. Also just slightly concerned about your infatuation with a 15 year old boys penis size...seek help!
Holden's Mom

[Maraya1969]

110. It is not about the size so much as it is the man's perception of his masculinity

When a person refers to some guy with a small penis they are taking jabs at men who feel the need to do, "manly"" things in order to make them manly.

A guy that is secure in himself and his sexuality and has no need to demoralize women or kill things probably doesn't worry about the size of his penis.

[Jenoch]

121. Your mistake is to assume

hunting has anything to do with proving masculinity. There are many women who participate in hunting. My mother shot her first deer at age 14.

[brucefamily6]

123. Thank You...

all 4 of our kids hunt..2 boys and 2 girls.

[Jenoch]

126. Several years ago there was a 17 year old boy

from a nearby town to me who wished to go on a Kodiak bear hunt for his Make A Wish wish. He went on that hunting trip, he did not get a brown bear and Make A Wish stopped all hunting trips. A couple years after that, some local hunting organizations funded another trip to Kodiak, but I don't remember if he got a brown bear. Alas, the young man died a couple of years later, but not before getting his degree in wildlife management.

http://www.startribune.com/obituaries/11598296.html

Downthread I wrote of my qualms about hunting predators. I have rethought my position. The hunt your son has won is to harvest just one of two cats.

I wish you, your son, and your family good luck on the hunting trip, and good luck on the prognosis for your son's illness. I lost three of four grandparents to cancer. They were all old when they died, your son deserves much better. God bless.

I just looked up where your town is located. It turns out you are just a little west of an area of Nebraska where we have some good family friends. They farm in the Deshler, Hebron, and Byron areas. They farm on both dry ground and irrigated.

One more edit. My father's best man at my parent's wedding was a long time resident of Cozad, Nebraska. I think he's been gone for over a decade. His wife was wacked out, but that's another story.

[GeorgeGist]

4. So killing cougars cures brain cancer?

Cause it sure as he'll doesn't cure stupidity.

[Omaha Steve]

6. Because...?

[Omaha Steve]

8. How do you DEFINE ethical?

Your newbie definition must be much different than a non-trolls?

[EOTE]

10. When did legal automatically equate with ethical?

I support hunting, but only if it's for food or to provide balance to ecosystems. If the hunting doesn't fall into at least one of those two categories, I'd definitely suggest that the hunting is unethical.

[EOTE]

12. So you think killing for fun is ethical.

Nice to know that we've cleared that little bit up.

[NuclearDem]

19. Oh, well if a lot of people do it that makes it alright.

[NuclearDem]

30. No it wouldn't be.

If you kill an animal for reasons other than 1) it's your sole source of food, 2) the animal is an immediate threat to you, or 3) as a mercy killing to end its suffering, that's completely unethical.

Doing it for fun just makes you sick.

[NuclearDem]

64. My point exactly.

Eating meat is unethical. And just because the vast majority of people in the world do so doesn't make it any more right.

[NuclearDem]

68. You think supporting the wholesale slaughter of animals and vast destruction of the environment is?

Humans (with the exception of those with certain medical conditions) don't need to eat meat to survive or get their nutrients.

But we do, and go about it through a process that's more of a contributor to climate change than all the vehicles on the road combined, spreads food borne illnesses, and causes a strain on the healthcare system with diet related conditions that could've been otherwise avoided.

So, it's largely unnecessary and a danger to the planet and public health despite there being more sustainable and healthier alternatives. What exactly is ethical about any of that to you?

And for who's saying so, try any major medical and environmental association and the United Nations.

[LanternWaste]

87. You do of course realize the difference between killing for necessity and killing for entertainment

You do of course realize the relevant difference between killing for necessity and killing for entertainment, yes? Two wholly and separate concepts-- one of which advertises without room for error, the lack of priorities one may place on ethics.


Insert distinction without a difference here...

[samsingh]

114. i agree - hunters for sport make me sick

[EOTE]

21. So again, you think that legal is equivalent to ethical.

You were waffling on that one before. Again, if it's legal, it's ethical. Nice to know what's going on up there.

[EOTE]

31. OK, so you think that killing for fun is ethical.

So long as it's not illegal. So by extension, if it became legal to kill any animal, it would by default be ethical. That's a really fucked up view, but you own it. Killing for fun is ethical. I never thought I'd see such psychopathic shit on DU.

[EOTE]

40. You're changing the topic once again. You were talking about killing SOLELY for fun.

As in, not eating the meat, not hunting for ecological reasons, but only for the joy of killing. You think that's ethical. Either you don't know what ethics are, or you are beyond any hope.

[EOTE]

45. Not only do you not have a problem with it, you think it's ethical.

Funny how you can hint around to your beliefs, but you're afraid of stating them explicitly. You think it's perfectly ethical to kill an animal solely for fun. Go on, embrace your inner Dahmer.

[EOTE]

51. You do know that laws and morals are two different things, right?

I'm just interested in how you equate killing an animal for no reason other than the joy it brings you pertains in any way to morals.

[uppityperson]

52. What about the black rhino hunt, or hunting other endangered animals elsewhere

in the world?

[EOTE]

57. If it's legal, then it's ethical.

That's what the poster you're responding to believes. Not only that, but it's ethical to kill an animal SOLELY for the pleasure that killing brings the killer.

[EOTE]

61. Again, you're afraid to state your actual position.

You adding these stipulations are completely irrelevant. You believe that there are times when killing SOLELY for the pleasure of killing is ethical (as in all legal killings purely for pleasure are ethical). You've admitted to this numerous times, yet you refuse to state that (probably because you rightly believe that anyone who knows this about you would think you're a psychopath).

[polly7]

70. Yes. ...... I've head that idiotic piece of logic before. Just yesterday, in fact

regarding the endangered black rhino.

"They're after the pleasure of the hunt...and (almost certainly in this case) bragging rights.

To each their own."

[Omaha Steve]

14. I asked about ethical (First Nebraska mountain lion permit goes to 15-year-old)

Is it ethical to hunt hunt an endangered Black Rhino to SAVE it too?


http://www.omaha.com/article/20131009/SPORTS/131019967

By David Hendee

LINCOLN — A 15-year-old Franklin, Neb., boy will be one of the state's first mountain lion hunters.

Holden Bruce's application was drawn Wednesday at Nebraska Game and Parks Commission headquarters. Holden will be allowed to hunt a mountain lion Jan. 1 through Feb. 14, 2014, in the Pine Ridge.

Holden will be allowed to hunt with dogs.

FULL story at link.

[polly7]

69. But, I thought

you've gone on photo safaris and hunted and found both activities enjoyable.

[LanternWaste]

86. he has every right to engage in his hunt much as we have every right to criticize it.

And for those of us who distrust people who enjoy killing...?

Sorry, kiddo... he has every right to engage in his hunt much as we have every right to criticize it.




Don't like getting criticized? Don't do anything to invite it...
(see how that "six of one, half a dozen of the other" thing works...?)

[alarimer]

88. I think it's unethical not to eat what you kill.

I think it's shameful and disgusting to kill a wild animal just to stick its head on your wall.

But with any luck that kid won't even see the mountain lion. Because it will see him first.

[Scootaloo]

26. What I've seen from Poddy's 20 posts...

Is if someone or something ends up dead, then it's ethical.

[EOTE]

33. You also said that killing for fun is ethical.

Don't run away from that one, because that's the biggie.

[EOTE]

38. Killing EXCLUSIVELY for pleasure is what we're talking about here.

You think that's ethical. We're not talking about taking pleasure in hunting, a lot of people take pleasure in hunting for food, there's nothing wrong with that. You're talking about killing SOLELY for pleasure. That's some Jeffrey Dahmer shit there. That's well beyond fucked up.

[EOTE]

49. Uh huh. And at what point does the killing of an animal become unethical?

When that animal is a human? What if it's no longer illegal to kill humans? That means it's then ethical to kill humans for sport, right? Or is it JUST humans who have any value and it's perfectly fine to kill anything else? So much fun to get into the inner workings of one's mind.

[uppityperson]

39. You approve of child rapists? I didn't see that post. Link?

[uppityperson]

47. Your grammar was unclear.

"I approve of the killing of legal game animals during hunting season and child rapists."

It would have been more proper to say "I approve of the killing of legal game animals during hunting season and of child rapists." Leaving out the second "of" made it appear you approve of 2 things. The killing of legal game animals. Child rapists.

Thank you for your civil answer in trying to clarify what you meant. You are a treasure.

[Scootaloo]

75. "Legal" and "ethical" are unrelated words, you know.

There are many legal things which are unethical, an d many illegal things which are not unethical. To conflate the two is to make lawmakers and enforces the gate guardians of right and wrong.

Killing a mountain lion may be legal, with the permits and stuff. But is killing an animal just for the fun of killing it an ethical act? If you think so, then... yeah, I'm perfectly comfortable with saying you have a very strange sense of ethics.

[Demo_Chris]

80. I define it as not harassing and bullying children...

And in particular children with cancer.

[KY5]

16. Agree with the sentiment of the letter.

But they should refrain from sending these letters to minors.

[nomorenomore08]

74. +1

Least of all a minor with potentially fatal cancer. I don't care for sport hunting, generally, but this almost seems like salt in the wound.

[Omaha Steve]

81. The original story that caused the letter didn't mention he is sick with link

http://www.omaha.com/article/20131009/SPORTS/131019967

By David Hendee

Published Wednesday, October 9, 2013 at 4:20 pm / Updated at 7:45 pm

Note this is the first ever hunt here because they are RARE here.

LINCOLN — A 15-year-old Franklin, Neb., boy will be one of the state's first mountain lion hunters.

Holden Bruce's application was drawn Wednesday at Nebraska Game and Parks Commission headquarters. Holden will be allowed to hunt a mountain lion Jan. 1 through Feb. 14, 2014, in the Pine Ridge.

Holden will be allowed to hunt with dogs.

The other hunter allowed to hunt in the January-February season will be determined at the Nebraska Big Game Society banquet and auction Oct. 16 at Mahoney State Park. One permit will be auctioned to the highest bidder. For more information on the event, email [e-mail].

The 100 other lottery permit holders, which also were drawn Wednesday, will hunt Feb. 15 through March 31 in the Pine Ridge without dogs. Permits have been mailed.

For more information on mountain lion hunting seasons, visit nebraskamountainlions.org.

[stranger81]

95. Old enough to shoot yourself one of god's most magnificent creatures for fun,

Then old enough to get a mean letter, IMHO.

The cancer bit seems irrelevant to me. I totally support making a dying kid's last wish come true, no matter how outlandish, provided that last wish isn't just to see what it feels like to kill something.

[otohara]

17. Odd Way to Cheer Up Sick Kids

fucked up

[maxsolomon]

83. Is he still sick?

He was diagnosed 3 years ago. He's still alive and apparently well enough to go hunting in the depth of a Nebraska winter for a apex predator.

My mom got 2 glioblastomas at 69 and was dead in 6 months. I had a roommate who had brain cancer at 12, and he's in his 40's now. Childhood brain cancers are surprisingly survivable.

Not feeling a lot of empathy for the teen. As long as the letter didn't threaten him, he should be able to suck it up if killing a cougar is so important to his cancer-fighting disposition.

[snooper2]

20. Well if it came from a PETA person at least they could have included a pin-up

That would be more likely to change his mind

[nomorenomore08]

76. Ha! Good point!

[Jenoch]

23. While I am not a huge fan of hunting predators,

the person sending that letter is the epitome of being a chickenshit.

[spanone]

25. ironic that a person with a life-threatening disease wants to kill something else. legal or not

[Auntie Bush]

41. That was my first thougt too.

If the boy doesn't want negative letters...don't kill animals. How anyone can get pleasure from killing an animal is beyond me.

[NCTraveler]

32. We live in such an aggressive and bullying society.

The kid want to kill something. The letter writer is bullying a minor. Derp all the way around.

[datasuspect]

34. fuck people like the letter writer

they are pieces of human scum.

[HappyMe]

43. Fuck that gutless letter writer.

Whether you hunt or not is entirely up to each person. It isn't as if the kid is out poaching. Sending a kid a nasty letter like that is wrong.

[bitchkitty]

55. Fuck senseless killing. n/t

[delta17]

73. And people who write harassing letters,

and don't have the guts to sign them.

[nomorenomore08]

77. Exactly. No real "good guys" here.

[LanternWaste]

90. I imagine the one will cause temporary emotional discomfort

I imagine the one will cause temporary emotional discomfort, while the other will cause a gunshot wound, and the end of a life.

Rather telling which one we ignore and which one we focus on, and how we may rationalize that focus.

[delta17]

91. I don't hunt, and I am not a fan of trophy hunting.

That said, hunting can help with overpopulation. This was recommended by state wildlife officials. It might not be pretty, but the state has decided it is necessary.

Also, I think it is interesting how there is outrage about hunting some animals and not others. I doubt this guy sent any letters to deer or turkey hunters.

[Kali]

58. this thread illustrates some of the reasons there are less and less rural Democrats.

I personally do not hunt, but know many that do. Mountain lions are not rare or endangered. Hunting is way more than just killing something. I at least understand that. People seem to have a very unrealistic picture of what is involved. Most probably know all they do about nature from watching teevee shows about it.

[EOTE]

62. Sure. Hunting can also be about providing food. It can also be about ecological issues.

But when one kills SOLELY for the fun of killing, that's just fucked up.

[Kali]

63. you missed the huge point

that hunting is about way more than just killing.

[EOTE]

66. No, you're missing the point. I acknowledge that hunting CAN be about way more than killing.

But when it's done not for providing food and not for ecological reason, but SOLELY for the pleasure of killing, that's psychopathy.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

108. This. i am not an idiot, i fully understand what hunting provides

i also understand that we lose the rural vote because of racism and homophobia not because I think hunting for pleasure is immoral

[HappyMe]

65. I agree.

I know a few people that go hunting (men and women). They are responsible and follow the rules. They fill their freezers or give it all to Hunt for The Hungry.

[maxsolomon]

84. What is the "way more than just killing" that justifies hunting apex predators?

I know many rural folk see it as enhancing game hunting opportunities, akin to killing rats who'd eat your grain. It's how killing endangered wolves was defended when I was at Bergdorf Hot Springs in Idaho - they kill elk calves, so hunting elk is harder now.

It's how nearly wiping out Grizzlies from the lower 48 was justified.

Is there something else I'm missing? Is Cougar meat yummy?

http://www.montanaoutdoor.com/2013/01/how-to-prepare-and-cook-mountain-lion-meat/

[Kali]

92. The big picture can be hard to see, and it often encompasses things that make us uncomfortable.

Hunting for these kinds of animals can have a management aspect - here in my area there are enough lions that they are seen as pests by some. I am not sure the season on them but there is a regular one as well as fairly easy to get permits for getting nuisance animals out of season.

Beyond that, these top trophy animals are often used to generate a LOT of conservation funds. Out of state hunters pay top dollar not only for permits but usually also for guides and other services that tend to help rural economies a bit.

Now, I don't care for it personally. I think it is kind of anachronistic and a bit uncivilized, but my personal feelings don't override my common sense and my understanding that in the long run the whole process is more beneficial than detrimental. The hunts are highly regulated and very exclusionary - only a small number of permits are issued for species that aren't that plentiful and most of the money generated goes right back into things like habitat acquisition or enhancements or programs to re-establish populations in other areas, etc.

If some guy wants a lion head over his mantle, and he got it legally I am going to think to myself "meh, what a goon," but I am not going to flip out and call him unethical or some kind of monster. A kid growing up in a rural area with a hunting history/culture isn't going to turn out to be a serial killer just because he wants to bag a lion. There are real skills involved in the activity, despite assholes like Sarah Palin and Dick Cheney and their canned photo-ops. Nature can be rough, and confronting a large predator even with a gun and dogs takes a certain amount of courage. I doubt many preaching how evil this all is would have the fortitude to venture into the back country for any reason, whether a photo hunt or a real one.

[Omaha Steve]

71. Nebraska man pays $13,500 for permit to hunt a mountain lion (why so much if it is ethical?)

A lot has happened since I went to lunch and the store.

http://www.omaha.com/article/20131016/NEWS/131018910/1603#nebraska-man-pays-13-500-for-permit-to-hunt-a-mountain-lion

Published Thursday, October 17, 2013 at 12:00 am / Updated at 10:30 pm

By David Hendee

MAHONEY STATE PARK, Neb. — A Nebraskan who has hunted around the world paid $13,500 for the privilege to hunt in the state's inaugural mountain lion season next year.

Tom Ferry, 58, of Ponca was the winning bidder Wednesday at a Nebraska Big Game Society auction for one of the first cougar permits from the Nebraska Game and Parks Commission.

"I just thought it would be nice to hunt mountain lions in Nebraska during the state's first season,'' Ferry said. "Maybe I won't get one, I don't know. It's hunting.''

Ferry has hunted in Africa, Canada, New Zealand, Russia and across the United States. Among the 150 trophy mounts in his home are mountain lions from Arizona and Utah.

FULL story at link.

[Montezumasdaddy]

72. Where did it say

The kid was going to kill a mountain lion and not eat it? I know people that have hunted and killed mountain lion and they eat them. If you don't want to eat meat that's fine but to rip on the kid when you have nothing to substantiate your theory that he is killing something and not eating it is wrong. I've been hunting my whole life and eat everything I kill (which will hopefully be a few ducks in the morning and everyone I know does the same. How would you feel if that mountain lion came and ate one of your pets or threatened your children? It happens all the time.

[nomorenomore08]

78. What does mountain lion taste like? I imagine it would have to be slow-cooked to be edible.

Too tough otherwise.

[Marrah_G]

79. Things like wolves and lions are not generally considered good eating

I have no problem with hunting for food. But I think the chances of someone choosing mountain lion meat over deer meet because of taste rather then bragging rights is probably pretty slim.

[Drahthaardogs]

111. False

Leg of lynx is considered a delicacy in Alaska. Mountain lion is good. I have eaten both. The dog is considered a delicacy in some parts of the world.

[maxsolomon]

85. If it ate one of my pets

I would think that nature is red in tooth and claw. And coyotes eat pets in my neighborhood.

If it threatened my children I would think that 1. something was wrong with the cat (young, sick, old) to try that, and 2. I live too far back in the woods. We have had sighting of young cougars who go sit at the forested edge of a suburban school playground and watch. No reports of them taking children or attacking them.

Of course, if one did attack my child I'd say kill it or relocate it to the middle of nowhere.

[moriah]

101. Arkansas refusedd to acknowledge mountain lions present here until they caught one on video.

I lived in Chimes, and we had some kind of large, very sharp clawed predator that was eating our chickens -- we found carcasses disemboweled with a long, sharp claw. We saw what appeared to be a very large cat when we were driving down the dirt road, but it quickly ran into the neighbor's property as we passed. This went on, we lost a chicken at least once a week (but had over 100 that decided to pop up from the unplanned cross of Tyson refugee roosters with banty hens that loved to hide their eggs).

We then moved, and took the buffet with us.

A few months later, we learned that our neighbor was killed. Even though tracks were identified as belonging to a mountain lion, they insisted that the family's non-rabid dogs all decided to kill her at once.

Now, yes, we do have a breeding population per the AGFC, and if they can kill even a mentally slow grown woman, they are certainly dangerous to children.

[joeybee12]

89. You're the person who just got booted, right? Nice new name...

Anyway, 13,500 for one kill means the animal is at least endangered...and no one kills a lion for food...it isn't done, no matter how much the bloodthirsty try to rationalize it.

[brucefamily6]

93. Hello- Holden's mom here

Last edited Sat Nov 2, 2013, 09:08 AM - Edit history (1)

I am certainly amazed at all the posts. I feel that the general population has no idea what hunting is about. First and foremost we have never and I am talking about my family, killed and not eaten what we kill. We have eaten mountain lion, deer, pheasant, turkey and fish. Concerns at being ethical should be directed much more to the food industry in which I assume most people on this thread shop. Please do the research on where and how you get your meat- beef, chicken and turkey and don't forget your milk ,eggs and cheese. The conditions of those poor animals should be a topic for you.
As far as my son is concerned keep in mind that he remains a minor CHILD. This means that all the negative comments directed toward him and his hunt are being said to a CHILD. With that said what kind of person responds with negative feedback and such immature comments as I believe I just read one which stated he was going to drape the pelt on his penis??? really??? I guess it is easy to hide behind the keyboard and judge everyone else without the conviction to actually address a grown-up with such childish comments.
Finally, no last I checked hunting does not cure brain cancer. As I have watched my son have about 20 seizures a day, laying in ICU crying in pain, being told what limited options we have for a treatment and praying every night to GOD to take me instead I don't feel anyone has the right to bring up his illness in such a cheap loose lipped comment.
I am more than happy to help educate anyone who is misguided on hunting or brain cancer and please direct your comments to me and leave the children out of the adult conversations- I shouldn't even have to say that= talk about a world falling to pieces!!
Holden's Mother

[gopiscrap]

94. welcome to DU

[TBF]

98. Hi Michelle -

The thing is that he may be a "child", but that child has been set loose with a deadly weapon so don't be surprised if his activities are called into question. It is not as though he is out there armed with a Nerf gun - if he were your comments would be understandable. If you allow your "child" to make decisions that result in things being killed you may find he is questioned about his behavior. I think you need to expect that.

That aside, I grew up in a big family of hunters. I don't love the practice but would agree whole-heartedly that most of those kills are much more humane than anything happening in factory farms these days. I'm sure your family will eat the meat (as mine did) and that is to be commended.

As for the the cancer I am truly sorry to hear that part of the story. I have two young children myself and can only imagine what you are going through.

You were brave to come on here and deal with the snarky comments - in your place I might choose to ignore the internet for awhile. I do wish you and your family well -- peace, TBF

[uppityperson]

100. Best wishes to Holden and to his family and friends. There are outspoken people

everywhere, and indeed sometimes people jump to opinions based on a small amount of information. Peace to you and yours, where and if you can get any.

[Marrah_G]

112. You put it out ther and there will be people who think what you are doing is wrong

I think what you are doing is wrong. You can't put this shit out there and then hide behind the fact that he is a child.; The fact is that you are paying a big amount of money so your son can say that he killed an animal just to be able to say "I killed that". He isn't hunting it to eat. He is hunting it for pleasure. Killing a beautiful animal for PLEASURE. Not food. You are not only allowing it, you are encouraging it and financing it.

So you go do what you want, but don't come complaining, using the fact that he is a child after you and your family were out there bragging because he is a child.

I'm sorry your son is ill. I truly hope he gets better.

[stranger81]

116. I agree with Marrah G.

I also think it's disingenous of you to insist that your son is both old enough to hunt and kill rare apex predators, but too young to think about whether or not that's wrong.

And yes, these animals are indeed rare, your anecdotal spottings of at least one cougar in your area notwithstanding -- and I say "one" because there's no indication that your family has seen a different animal on any of the occasions a cougar has been spotted.

Having said all that, I am truly sorry for what you, your son, and your entire family are going through as a result of your son's illness. I don't think that gives him, you, or anyone a pass to engage in unethical activity, but I do wish your family wasn't going through this all the same.

[brucefamily6]

117. your post is so completely wrong

I am not financing a thing...not one dime in fact. My son paid 15.00 for the permit. He was drawn in the lottery. One ticket was a lottery draw (my sons) and the other permit was an auction which auctioned for over 13,000 dollars. Again ..Holden's ticket was 15.00 and he used his own money. As far as the cost of the hunt itself we have people crawling out of the woodwork to help on this hunt. We have offers for free places to stay, free dogs to use, free land to hunt on. Hunting where we live is a way of life. Everyone we know hunts and puts the meat in the freezer. In our family the kids are taught they have to eat what they kill. They are not allowed to just hunt for fun. Every year my children hunt pheasant, deer and turkey. We process all the meat ourselves and make jerkey out of the deer. This season we are donating all of the meat to 2 local families in need who want the meat to feed themselves over the winter.
As far as bragging- not sure what you mean by that. The news has ran several articles on this hunt as it is Nebraska's first and big news around here. We have released very few statements about it. We did not put him in the news the news came to us after his name was drawn. He still remains a child and us as adults know better than to bully children. If you have a problem with the hunt then address it to Nebraska game and if you feel you need to make a personalized statement then by all means make it to me. I am more than happy to address concerns or help straighten out any misconceptions or media coverage concerns.
As far as his illness this is a completely separate thing from the hunt. These two things are not related in anyway.
I am curious...where did you get all your incorrect information? Lets make sure we keep all the data objective not subjective so it can be evaluated and discussed in manners that benefit all. The best part of life is that it is a mixture of many opinions and ideas..no one is completely right or completely wrong is all in your perception. Thank You for sharing your opinion with me.

[Marrah_G]

120. I misread and thought you purchased the one for 13k

I stand by the rest of what I wrote. Hunting for food is one thing. Hunting simply for bragging rights that you got to kill a cougar is a very different thing. I find it incredibly distasteful, much like people who go to Africa to kill a lion or an elephant for no other reason then to brag about it. It treats life as a frivolous thing, it treats animals as nothing more then something to be slaughtered for pleasure.

If your son was hunting to put food in your freezer that would be one thing. But he isn't. He is doing it for bragging rights, for no other reason then to be able to say "i killed a mountain lion" and in my opinion that is always a distasteful thing. If he was hunting for food he would be going after deer or moose or fowl, not after a cougar.

[brucefamily6]

122. I agree

I agree with you completely. My husband and I both agree the kids have to eat what they kill no matter what the game. To kill for fun is very wrong and this is not how we raise our kids. We did eat the cougar from the Arizona trip and will also eat this one if he even gets one. I personally do not like game meat it has a funky taste but my sons like it and they eat it. There is also a program through game and parks to donate the meat to the hungry. We are not doing that specific program because we already know people who want and can benefit from the deer meat this year.
The mountain lion hunt is a rare experience and will challenge him more but I assure you the meat will not be wasted. He did hunt mountain lion in Arizona and I did arrange that hunt with a foundation. It was not a make a wish trip it was a very specific hunting only foundation for ill kids. The meat was shipped home with him on ice and we cooked it up.
We are educated people- not some redneck white trash. Our kids are raised properly. They hold jobs, go to school, make honor roll, hold leadership roles in clubs ,play varsity sports, they don't drink, smoke or get in trouble. I think there are many parents across the country teaching their kids a lot worse things than how to hunt.
Thank You so much for addressing your concerns with me and not just blog about it with insults

[Omaha Steve]

96. Looks like Poddy Fries (poddy mouth) died quickly but ethically

Just what s/he wanted.

[In_The_Wind]

97. It certainly looked that way.

[Judi Lynn]

115. May he awaken in a celestial field with bullets flying around him. n/t

[indie9197]

102. I wish California would have mountain lion hunts

That state is over-run with the varmints.

[Kayucian]

104. A little history...

It was 2007 when the first evidence of a reproducing puma population surfaced in the Pine Ridge National Forest of Nebraska. After having been eradicated east of the Mississippi, this is the farthest east such a population is now known to exist in the United States. A mere six years and 15-22 cats later, and the nine Nebraska Game & Parks Commissioners declare a killing season. Joining 15 year old Holden Bruce is Tom Ferry who paid $13,500 through auction to indiscriminately kill one of these rare big cats. Both will be able to track them down with dogs, no less. Deplorable. They have January 1st through February 14th all to themselves, and then 100 other lottery winners will be set loose on February 15th through March 31st, sans the dogs.

Former State Senator LeRoy Louden of Ellsworth was presented with a kill permit by Nebraska Game & Parks' director, Jim Douglas. It was a sort of honorary reward for introducing and shepherding his puma "hunting" bill, LB928 (http://www.nebraskalegislature.gov/bills/view_bill.php?DocumentID=15917) through to its final conclusion.

This fragile, isolated population has caused zero conflicts with people. The premise of such management practices are deeply flawed, being out-of-date with current science, regardless. Puma are a highly territorial and self-regulating species. Indiscriminate killing can actually increase conflict as revealed by one of the longest-running peer reviewed studies on puma to date:

"If an adult male cougar dies or is killed – by a hunter, for instance – the territory is left undefended and younger male cougars will move in. Often two or more younger cats enter the territory formerly occupied by a single adult male. Because cougars don’t develop their territorial instincts until they are about 4 years old, the younger cougars may occupy overlapping ranges for a few years, resulting in a higher local cougar population, and increasing the potential for interactions with livestock and humans." - (http://methowvalleynews.com/2013/07/31/managing-the-big-cats/)

Effects of Sport Hunting on Cougar Population, Community, and Landscape Ecology - (

)

Another great article acknowledging this research, and comparing data in California, where puma have not been sport hunted since 1972, with neighboring states that continue to allow such killing: (http://newwest.net/topic/article/oregons_assumptions_on_cougar_hunting_misplaced/C564/L564/)

So, once again "hunting" predators is not only unethical. It is also unnecessary and perhaps even harmful, potentially disrupting the local ecosystem and increasing conflict with Homo sapiens.

[Omaha Steve]

105. Thanks for the post

[brucefamily6]

107. FACTS

I am sure the information you shared you thought was correct but that is not the fact. As Holden's mother I can tell you we have seen cougars (puma) in our area of Nebraska. We live 6 hours East and South of the Pine Ridge area. We are lifelong Nebraskans and have interactions with cougars our entire lives. My husband has witnessed a cougar by our mailbox and again down our gravel road, my mother came upon one in her car, my children and I witnessed one on the republican river, my children ran into one riding a go-cart on our land next to our house and a farmer just to our North was ran up onto his irrigation pivot by one and that was this year alone. The info you had about the fragile population is most incorrect.
The two permits given out for the first hunt with dogs allowed will hardly decrease the population. The next 100 permits given out do not allow dogs and as any educated hunter would know the chance for tracking and bagging a cougar without dogs is almost non-virtual. Ergo the population again will not decrease. Cougars are however dangerous if approach or accidentally stumbled upon and the population is so much so that our children are educated on what to do if the see one. Again- not a fragile population isolated to pine ridge. They also harm livestock and pets.
Many animal activists are meaning well but are mislead at times with incorrect information. Just because you call game and parks with a cougar report does not mean they mark it down and acknowledge a cougar population. You pretty much have to drag the dead body to their doorstep to get them to acknowledge it and those of us who live here all know that.
Thank You

[Kayucian]

119. You mistake anecdotes for fact, using mere presence and possibility to justify killing for fun.

Holden's mother,

Thanks for clarifying that which you did not intend to. Although, the above article told me enough, "This will be Bruce's second mountain lion hunt. About three years ago, his mother organized a hunt in Arizona through the Hunt of a Lifetime Foundation"

It is possible, if perhaps a bit like winning the lottery, that you could have witnessed dispersing individuals. It happens. However, most sightings turn out to be cases of mistaken identity. Perhaps you wouldn't believe how many bobcats, coyotes, dogs, and even domestic cats are mistaken for puma. Of course, NG&Ps doesn't record a word-of-mouth sighting as evidence. In the past 22 years there have been 92 confirmations of puma presence outside of the Pine Ridge breeding population. Photographs, tracks, scats tested for DNA, a capture, and the dead puma themselves make up this collection. Nearly all of these recorded beyond the panhandle have been dispersing (non-resident) males seeking their own home ranges in the limited ideal habitat that Nebraska has left to offer. In fact, the first female puma east of Pine Ridge was just documented this very year back in January, along the Niobrora River Valley. Perhaps a sign of another nascent population. No evidence of breeding has yet been found. The appearance of a female is an encouraging sign, and I wish them well. With folks and their anecdotal tirades (the mere appearance of wildlife causing some to cry out for blood and succeeding), they are going to need all the luck they can get!

Crossing paths with a puma would be a remarkable, treasured moment. I keep an eye out, but have not yet been graced. I live in a state with a significant human and puma population. They use our largest local creek as a travel corridor. We sojourn into more likely meeting places, sharing space with black bear, coyote, bobcat and only taking pictures. It can be similar to hunting, but there is no needless bloodshed. The lack of respect and the unwillingness to coexist with fellow predators is beyond me. Anecdote for anecdote. Earlier this year, it became even more personal when I learned that one of the collared bears I'd known was shot to death by a thrill-killer. A bear who tended to stay out of trouble, and I know this because he was a tracked bear. The fate of many.

Your dishonest attempts to justify what your son is about to do for the second time are not new to me. There is no need, it is simply the desire to end another life. Fun. Excitement. Who might have nurtured such a thing? At least be honest, Michelle. Sustainability does not grant permission, otherwise a certain overpopulated hominid might be fair game.

Further, your lack of concern for the species you encourage your son to kill, is a given. You say the population will not decrease when that is NG&P's stated intent, and when you do not seem to have a lick of knowledge for puma population dynamics.

"hunting season has been proposed for the Pine Ridge with the objective of providing a harvest opportunity for mountain lions in Nebraska while allowing a slight to moderate reduction in the population." - Nebraska Game & Parks

"The revised proposal for taking four cats with a two-female sub quota (18% – 27% of the total population estimate) in the Pine Ridge National Forest with the goal of reducing the population, while instituting an unlimited year-round season for 85% of the rest of the state, is a recipe for increasing the very conflicts the proposal wishes to contain: conflicts with pets, livestock, people and mountain lions.

The Large Carnivore Lab at Washington State University has determined from fifteen years of research that taking more than 14% of a mountain lion population (greater than the average reproduction rate) disrupts mountain lion social order. The safest way to manage any mountain lion population is to leave it alone – mountain lions police themselves – taking problem individuals out at the source: the current Nebraska protocol." - Christopher Spatz, President Cougar Rewilding Foundation (http://cougarrewilding.org/CougarNews/?p=6218)

[Niceguy1]

127. Thanks cor the info

Makes perfect sense.
Good luck on the hunt.

[Omaha Steve]

128. ARE MOUNTAIN LIONS DANGEROUS?

I am sorry some DUers have been less than kind to your son. We have members that will insult ANYONE for any reason. Usually trolls that want democrats to look bad.

Omaha has had several lions killed in the last few years. All were killed. One was shot by an Omaha police officer by accident. None attacked a human or pet btw.

http://mountainlion.org/FAQfrequentlyaskedquestions.asp#Risk



To deer, yes! To people, not so much. Human encounters with mountain lions are rare and the risk of an attack is infinitely small. You are more likely to drown in your bathtub, be killed by a pet dog, or hit by lightning. If lions had any natural urge to hunt people, there would be attacks every single day. Instead, they avoid us.

But if you live, work, or play in cat country, be alert! Avoid walking alone between dusk and dawn when lions are most active. Keep your children and pets close to you. Never approach or corner a mountain lion (or any wild animal). If you do encounter a mountain lion, STOP. DO NOT RUN. Unlike safety advice for encountering bears, do not act timid or play dead in front of a cat.

Instead: Maintain eye contact. Stand tall. Look bigger by opening your coat or raising your arms. Slowly wave your arms and speak firmly. Throw items at the lion if necessary. Give the cat room and time to move on.

In the rare event of an attack, fight back. Most people succeed in driving the mountain lion away.

AND from the same link...

WILL SPORT HUNTING OF LIONS IMPROVE THE SAFETY OF PEOPLE, PETS AND LIVESTOCK?

No. The assertion that sport hunting is a necessary and effective strategy for reducing mountain lion attacks on people remains widespread in the mainstream media and in the popular literature. While some state wildlife agencies, such as in California and Wyoming, state that sport hunting cannot be expected to increase public safety, other state agencies have claimed the opposite, apparently to garner public support for sport hunting. For example, without any scientific research to back their theory, in 2005 the South Dakota Game, Fish and Parks offered as the primary justification for their state's first-ever sport hunting season on mountain lions that it "may be a more effective solution [than removal of individual lions] for dealing with problems caused by mountain lions." This would be like the police department saying their new plan to reduce crime is to start randomly arresting innocent people on the street.

Annually killing off thousands of lions in wilderness areas that avoid people does not make the remaining lion population fearful of humans.

An overwhelming number of studies have clearly demonstrated that sport hunting of lions not only does not increase the public's safety, it also does not reduce depredation on livestock or other domestic animals, and in fact appears to be responsible for the increase in human/lion conflicts in regions where lion mortality is excessive. For more information see MLF's 2006 report Effects of Sport Hunting Mountain Lions on Safety and Livestock and the latest research on what happens when adult lions are excessively hunted: Troubled Teens.

WHAT IS THE MOUNTAIN LION FOUNDATION?

Founded in 1986 to stop the trophy hunting of mountain lions in California, the Mountain Lion Foundation (MLF) has grown into a national, non-profit conservation and education organization dedicated to protecting mountain lions and their habitat. MLF has inspired citizens across the nation to act on behalf of lions and their habitat by presenting practical solutions to complex problems, providing unbiased information to media, aiding local activists, promoting lion research, influencing regulation and changing laws.

Your membership, at any level, makes you part of a nationwide network of individuals who commit dollars and energy to the cause of Saving America's Lion. For more information on who we are and what we have accomplished visit MLF's ABOUT page.

[Omaha Steve]

113. This post is why I posted this later Friday

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023963252

[blackspade]

118. Nothing like the 'hunt of a lifetime'

to make you feel better about your cancer.

No, seriously, shooting animals will make you feel better and help you combat the cancer...

[brucefamily6]

124. why is his cancer so important?

Hunt of a lifetime doesn't cure cancer but neither does Disney World...the idea is to give them a break from treatments and Doctors. Some people ski, some hunt, some fish and some go to amusement parks....all a personal choice.
This hunt has NOTHING to do with his illness. He has a hunting permit, he went to hunter's safety classes, he saved his money, he applied like hundreds of other people for the mountain lion tag and his name was drawn. It is legal, he went through all the proper forms and he has done nothing illegal. As far as Ethics..they are subjective not objective so every individual has their own concept of what is ethical or not. Each of us has to decide what we feel is right and wrong and not force our views onto others.

[stranger81]

125. Nobody's forcing their view on anyone else here.

As much as many of us would like to, nobody is stopping your son from killing whatever he wants for fun. And your comparison of killing rare wildlife to riding the Ferris wheel at an amusement park makes it clear that this is what it's about -- fun. You can stop pretending now that anyone in your family is killing because they need to eat; they're killing because they like to kill, and have apparently been taught that it's their right.

As for whether ethics on this subject are subjective, I strongly disagree, but I understand that you feel it's your role to "educate" others here instead of making any effort to understand why so many are upset about what your son is up to.

[blackspade]

129. You missed my point entirely....

So I'll be more explicit:

What you are doing with 'Hunt of a Lifetime' is a horrific way of granting terminal cancer patients relief from the pain and fear that cancer brings. It is a ridiculous idea that hunting is the equivalent to amusement parks, concerts, or meeting one's heroes. I don't see how violence can bring joy in a sane way.

[MFM008]

130. Why

would you want possibly one of the last acts of your life be to kill something.