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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy are men choosing not to marry anymore?
Is the single life good? 
I think so but lets hear it from others.
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TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)
Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)Should also note the converse is true as well.
niyad
(113,254 posts)
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)There are less women willing to let themselves be treated like shit - like doormats - for men who like to wipe their feet with women.
So, those men aren't getting married. Hopefully, anyway.
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)There ARE too many assholes out there among my gender. I just thought the response above sounded a wee bit one-sided, and more than a little bitter.
whathehell
(29,067 posts)why would you criticize those of us who've been their victims as "bitter"?
It seems like a reasonable response to me. 
niyad
(113,254 posts)MY question was one-sided and bitter? seriously?
as a matter of curiosity, do you ever listen to what comes out of some mra's mouths regarding women? do you ask THEM if they are serious? do you call THEM bitter? if not, you have some serious thinking to do.
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)The reason for that being that I find most such people extraordinarily tedious, and converse with them as little as possible.
Here's the thing though. If someone here at DU posted an OP inquiring why fewer women were getting married, and someone responded right off the bat with "Not enough men willing to put up with their shit?" or similar as a response I would ALSO respond to that, and I would think it sounded a bit bitter. Because it does.
I'm not your enemy niyad, nor do I wish to be.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)... as a doormat.
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)One marriage was enough for me. no need to have someone change who they are after they are married - Just sleep with them already - no money fights, no expectations, no need to explain why your husband did not come along with you to a family event.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)me learn how to be a better person. It helps to have a spouse who does the same. If both spouses aren't willing to do that, it doesn't work.
hollysmom
(5,946 posts)with my friends and my relatives. I have never had to go through with my friends the lies I went through with my husband. And oddly enough, I have some friends for over 40 years now, even the ones who have moved away. i don't think I was the problem.
seattle15
(45 posts)I would never choose to marry, and I don't have any female friends that would choose that bad path either.
treestar
(82,383 posts)That it's entirely up to men and women would of course want to get married.
ismnotwasm
(41,975 posts)Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)I doubt that it's just men who are choosing not to marry. The trend seems to be that more people are delaying marriage or opting out of it.
JimboBillyBubbaBob
(1,389 posts)Are they marrying any less?
Squinch
(50,944 posts)to survive economically.
haele
(12,646 posts)They feel they have to "grow up" or take more responsibility than they want to. Same with some women. It's all fun and games until someone gets serious or pregnant.
Before anyone bites my head off, I said "Some Men".
And my BIL is a prime example. He and my SIL live in a Southern state, and he only got married when he got an minor executive position because that's expected.
He's just fine being married to my SIL (they're going on 15 years) so long as there's no kids he has to take second place to. He's well off. They can go travel - fly to New York for a dinner and a show three or four times a year, or go fly fishing in Wyoming, etc, etc... He always has to have the newest toys.
She works, so she can keep her own account for her own spending, and if she wants really, really wants kids, she's just enough of a "good wife" (they're SBC) not to complain that he doesn't want any competition for his fun.
I suspect it comes from being 4th of six children, mostly boys, in a poor rural family - he sometimes complains that all he had were hand me downs at the worn out stage that were always ready to break. Right now, life for him is good.
Haele
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Children are a huge responsibility, greatly complicate a couple's life, are extremely expensive, and don't always turn out well.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)who are doing quite well, and I'm incredibly proud of them. But I understand it could have gone the other way.
Still, I'll readily admit that it's been pretty difficult raising them because of the grave responsibilities we as parents have toward our offspring. On one hand, you don't want them to dominate you by being too "soft", but on the other, you don't want to break their spirit by being overbearing, either. It's that constant search for balance that can drive a parent up the wall, but teaching them the concept of respect goes a long way!
However, even though it's been a long and frustrating slog raising my three children, the rewards are great, too.
Just this weekend, my youngest - my daughter - went on her first business trip with her employer (an attorney). She flew to Utah and then to Arizona. She'll be home tonight close to midnight. Her employer has plans to take my daughter to Holland this month to meet with their investors.
My daughter is only 21 (will be 22 this Tuesday), and already she's up for promotion from Executive Assistant to V.P. of New Relations (carries a six figure income with an expense account!) come January 2014. She is being honed to head the law firm that has plans to expand to three more states: Texas, New York, and Florida. She's been asked to put studying law on the back burner for now, though, but to get her MBA first, and that's what she's working toward.
My sons are both working and have never been unemployed. My eldest is autistic and has cerebral palsy, but he works at a workplace for the handicapped, and is up every morning and works hard (constantly gets awards). He rarely takes a day off, and he never wants to.
My middle child, my son, is a care provider in a large group home and is going back to school this January to start on his MBA so that he and my daughter can open group homes for the disabled in the next three to five years.
They're hardworking, studious, and ambitious, and I can't be prouder. But I'm telling you, it's been very hard with LOTS of sacrifice on our part as parents so I can fully understand why a lot of people choose not to have children. I really do.
However, despite the trend, my children are looking forward to being parents one day. In fact, my daughter, who loves our family name, has decided together with her boyfriend of four years that when they get married, he'll take her maiden name as his legal, married name because she wants their children to carry our last name, too. I just learned that in California, since January 2009, this is now allowed under the California Name Equality Act. She and her boyfriend couldn't be happier!
My second son on the other hand, will wait to be married. He's focused on other things now. His girlfriend is in the process of acquiring her teaching credentials to become an elementary school teacher, so they're putting career ahead of marriage and children for now, although she definitely does want children. Eventually.
Brigid
(17,621 posts)It has a lot to do with today's lousy economy.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)many men and women around my age really are not in a rush to marry because of financial issues.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)poor when we got married. We wore jeans, didn't have flowers or a band. Had close friends and family gather at a church and got married. We just wanted to be married. We didn't care what the ceremony looked like. But I can understand why people who really want a beautiful ceremony and can't really afford it would put it off.
My first thought was that young people struggle through college, come out with a 4 year degree then move back in with Mom and Dad because there're no jobs out there and the student loans suck up anything they can save. A lot of 20somethings can't even contemplate marriage; they need to get on their feet first and the effed-up system does nothing to help them.
I'm an Oldie, and I jump all over anyone my age who assumes young kids have it totally easy today. They're under a ton of pressure, so methinks the delay in marriage is nothing to do with guys being jerks and women not wanting to put up with them anymore. I know so many good young men (more conscious and kinder than the boomer dudes were at their age) who couldn't get married now if they wanted to. Let's wait and see what the statistics tell us in 10 years before we diss them all as assholes.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)Before the 60's/70's, women HAD to marry to have a family (or risk being looked down on by society for having "illegitimate" children)
Men were alone at the "top of the hill" (jobwise), and were still very under-the-influence of prior generations (sole provider/head-of-household/king-of-castle)
Integration/women's movement put younger men entering the jobforce in the workplace (on a more or less equal-footing) with females of equal abilities..and with people of other races. There was dating, to be sure, but for the unmarried ones, it was an opportunity to see women as more than potential wives.
These days, dating lasts a VERY long time. In past generations, girls often were not even allowed to date until they were 16, and then married at 18, so there was only a few years' window...and since divorce was not common, their life was planned out.
Modern girls (and boys) start "dating" now at a very young age, and since each sex can support themselves, and even have kids without being married (societally), many find themselves in the dating-pool for decades.
It's easy to see how , at some point, they could just sour on the whole "forever" aspect of marriage.
Many also come from unhappy/broken homes (after the 80's divorce lost its stigma), and may not want to risk repeating the experience.
Also, since college debt (and credit card debt) is rampant, a lot of couples who might really want to marry, hold off because they are too broke to start a fresh marriage with staggering debt.
Our 3 boys all waited for marriage until after they were 30, because they wanted financial security before they took on marriage.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)wants what we have. It matters not to me whether she gets married, but what I do wish for her is to find love and support. My husband and I are best friends and that is what I wish for her. I hope she finds someone to love who is her best friend and someone she can laugh with during the good times and cry with during the hard times.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)Two really nice people who know, love and care for each other and are smart enough to realize that real commitment takes intelligence and hard work. It's such a wonderful example for my nieces who are college age now. Their family was a warn and comfortable nest to be raised in as well.
But let's be truthful. You are few and far between.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Many changes have occurred over the last few decades. I don't think it's a men vs. women then, but more the changes in society in general.
RKP5637
(67,103 posts)there are more options today. Also, many might not want to follow fallacies of what is "normal."
treestar
(82,383 posts)Since the early 70s it has been free sex without marriage. I actually don't get why they ever do - the men who have married since the early 70s to me must have been incurable romantics.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)A person doesn't have to be an incurable romantic. Some people just need a person to come home to each day. The biggest hurdles for marriage is two people finding someone that they are compatible with and being able to adapt as dynamics of the relationship changes with time.
Too many people pay more attention when buying a watch or car than they do when selecting a mate. Characteristics of a person that are on full display if a suitor pays attention get missed and that leads to trouble in marriage. It is possible to learn the most about a person in situations where they don't expect to be found out, those situations happen many times during a day or week.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)
DireStrike
(6,452 posts)
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 3, 2013, 12:39 AM - Edit history (1)
Is it possible that marriage and family are fading anachronisms of the agrarian past - like religion? Many of the reasons why these institutions came into being in the first place are no longer issues. They still exist at all not because of the reasons that created them - but because social inertia still leaves them for those who choose to have them for other reasons than the necessities that led to their establishment.
RKP5637
(67,103 posts)FarCenter
(19,429 posts)The elevation of the nuclear family of a couple and children to mythical status is part of the post WW II world characterized by a lot of mobility, marriages, and the baby boom.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)and a few who married but never had kids. In fact, none of my 7 blood-relation great aunts, who were nearly all born in the 19th century, ever had kids.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I don't think it's an anachronism. Setting aside the personal and social merits of commitment, Issues like rights of inheritance are still germane.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Traditional marriage instead of sexual freedom for all.
Fighting for the military instead of peace.
The most visible goals of the LGBT community are traditional/religious or militaristic.
A progressive movement would work for peace during a time of unending war and for legal frameworks to support non traditional partnerships, instead of fitting itself to the dominant culturally conservative norm.
Joining the status quo is not radical.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)You don't simply pick the parts of equality which sound fun and/or profitable.
I think the LGBT activists have it right. Fight for the right to serve in the armed forces while engaging in a political process which makes it less necessary and war less likely.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)I doubt that it will ever reach the current percentage for heterosexuals.
After the initial pent-up demand, gay marriage is likely to be fairly uncommon.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I have a 23 year old adoptive son who just married his partner. I don't see any reason to believe that gays and lesbians - in general - are looking for anything out of life other than what heterosexual people are. Happiness, companionship, community, etc.
I suspect that in 20 years the rate of marriage (and divorce) will be comparable to heterosexuals.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)FarCenter
(19,429 posts)A lot of the legal framework for marriage revolves around the support of and inheritance by children. Without children there is less incentive to get married, although, as noted up thread, there are lots of childless by choice hetero marriages.
Or they will have children from previous unions, who are already entangled in legal ties to previous partners.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)
Mz Pip
(27,436 posts)It doesn't mean anyone has to get married.
My older son is straight, has a long time partner and a little daughter. They own property together and have a legal domestic partnership. But for tax purposes it's cheaper to not be married. She also is in a student loan forgiveness program through Georgetown Law. Her public service income must stay below a certain level or she will no longer qualify. If they get married that will screw that up.
For them it's purely economic.
rdharma
(6,057 posts)
niyad
(113,254 posts)
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)I've been divorced a few years now and have taken a look around...damn, talk about not even trying! It's like so many seem to have hit somewhere over 40 and thought to themselves "ok, I'm old now, I surrender". Frankly I think this is more common with men since women are conditioned from birth to be judged by appearance.
Damn sad.
Julie
tridim
(45,358 posts)It's pretty much the best thing I've ever done for myself. I feel and look better than I have since my 20's. My 30's SUCKED, but that was mostly my fault.
Fortunately it's very quick and easy to determine who has given up after 40 and who hasn't.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)And I'm sterile.
For both me and my girlfriend (of six years) marriage was the issue over which our previous relationships blew-up. So why even go there?
My ex became extremely possessive and controlling and her ex (or his parents) basically demanding she turn into a different person. He didn't want to marry "one of the boys".
avebury
(10,952 posts)outmoded institution. When you consider the efforts of the far right to try to control society with all their lunatic legislation it is probably becoming smarter to not get married. Women, as a whole, are not as eager to get married as they were in our parents' and grandparents' time.
NickB79
(19,233 posts)We had been an unmarried couple for 7 years, perfectly content to stay that way. Unfortunately, she had health issues that would have made it very difficult for her to carry a pregnancy to term without medical care, and we wanted to start a family. Her health insurance was utter shit, while mine was stellar (thank you Teamster's Union!).
So, we were married by a justice of the peace, I added her to my health insurance plan, and 18 months later we were blessed with a healthy baby girl 
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)NickB79
(19,233 posts)
ProfessorGAC
(64,993 posts)Biggest reason i'm a union supporter. I get the whole "rising tide" thing too, but i the personal experience trumps the intellectual reasons to support unions.
GAC
mythology
(9,527 posts)Wealthier and better educated people are more likely to get and stay married. People who are less wealthy and lower educated tend to not be in a financial situation to get married.
But the average age of first marriage is also rising, and given that marriage overall is trending toward the wealthier, it makes sense that people are waiting until they are a little more settled, after college and starting a career.
As for me, I'm not married and even though I would like to get married, I doubt I will for a whole host of reasons.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)The odds were against us, but we made it. My daughter wants to get married too. She does want to go to college and start a career first though. She is actually the same age right now that I was when I had her. She told me she would not want to be pregnant right now. I support her in anything she wants to do. I enjoy watching her come home from college and talk about what she learned in school that day. I sit back and realize the things she is learning is helping her learn who she is and helping her become a strong, independent woman. She is a wonderful young woman. I can't wait to see what she does with her life.
Response to mythology (Reply #24)
LiberalLoner This message was self-deleted by its author.
bermudat
(1,329 posts)Response to bermudat (Reply #105)
LiberalLoner This message was self-deleted by its author.
JustAnotherGen
(31,810 posts)We were 36/40 when we met and 39/43 when we married.
Huge advantages to that - HUGE. Financially set, ZERO debt, both have fully funded retirements, bought a home, traveled pre and post wedding, etc. etc.
We both have a travel addiction - one of the things that is a commonality. I know in my case I would not give back a single last minute solo trip to Europe or anywhere else. I had a blast!
I could not have done that, met the people I did, experienced the things I did married with two kids in my 20's and living in Western NY. I could not.
I wouldn't change my life or the age I got married at for the world.
Really - to each their own. And in my case -having a brass ring holding mom who doesn't regret getting married and having two kids before her 24th birthday . . . she really influenced me to delay marriage.
I was born in 1973 - not 43/53 or hell - even 63. Why not get my kicks in while I could ? No one says you ever HAVE to get married.
Male or Female - truthfully - it's NOT the be all and end all and my husband and I both came from Till Death Did They Part Loving Homes . . . but those homes sent out self sufficient self-actualized individuals who were taught to build their lives, friendships, knowledge and experience base on the idea that . . .
What IF you never get married?
Too many folks say - I must . . . and then they are crying themselves to sleep in their early 30's and makind desperate choices later because they fear being alone more than they fear being stuck with a dud for the rest of their natural lives or divorce (ruins people financially).
Better to be single and having an awesome life than sorry and a sucky one.
wickerwoman
(5,662 posts)If you read up on the Industrial Revolution in the 19th century it was actually pretty uncommon for working class people to bother getting married. You just shacked up and after seven years you were common law married.
There were constant moral panics among the upper classes about how to get the great unwashed to actually marry each other and stop having kids out of wedlock.
Cannikin
(8,359 posts)At least...that's what they tell me here in Arkansas. 
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)I just wanted to wait until i was absolutely certain I'd met the right woman, and I'm married to an amazing woman. Incredible. If I told y'all all of her good points, you simply wouldn't believe me.
However, I had a kid when I was 20. I raised that kid, because her mom is...I don't want to say bad things about her, but she is, for lack of a better term, "flawed" as a parent.
I dated around around some, but tried not to expose my daughter to a parade of strange women.
Later I had a stable career, a home, a dog, and a fantastic kid. I was mostly celibate, but my kid was at an impressionable age, I was busy, I felt like I didn't have a lot to offer a woman, and I hadn't met the right one yet. And being both the child of divorced parents (before it was cool) and having a child of my own, a commitment like that is something I take very seriously.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Congratulations.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)I can also relate in terms of having kids. My childhood was not particularly good and I felt like having children was for me a bad idea. I think on life decisions like that people have to go with their gut if there is a reason to not get married or put off getting married, the same with children. Nobody has to do either. Personally I think the people who give marriage and having children deep consideration if they have something in their background that bugs them are doing the right thing.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)I probably wouldn't have gone to college either, but that's another story...
Behind the Aegis
(53,945 posts)
DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)Behind the Aegis
(53,945 posts)DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)you don't get the advantages of it being a federal law. can't file joint income tax returns. no social security survivor benefits. hopefully one day it will pass on the federal level.
when my husband passed i was able to collect his pension and 401k and got social security survivor benefits.
Behind the Aegis
(53,945 posts)If, G-d forbid, something happens to my partner, I will get nothing in the way of social security benefits, and I can be sued, by the state, over his retirement accounts. It doesn't matter if he wills it to me or not, that is what is most scary to me.
Been thinking of you.
DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)she left my friend her house and her insurance, but the family gave her a hard time. she was afraid if they went to court the judge would not side with her so she gave the family 1/2 of the insurance money. they had been together almost 25 years and were in the process of getting back together when linda died.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)ieoeja
(9,748 posts)The portion of DOMA that allowed the federal government to ignore same-gender marriages was struck down. There is some question whether they can use the law based on your place of residence. But for now the IRS has simply stated that they don't care. If you get married in Massachussetts and move to Illinois, as far as the IRS is concerned ... you are married.
So you can file jointly or separately. You can not file single.
In 10 years, you will be eligible for social security survivor benefits.
Those states not recognizing same-gender marriages performed out of state, but require you carry forward a lot of information from your federal taxes have put themselves into quite a bind. "Enter line #41 from federal taxes," will be replaced by a complex form to figure out what line 41 would have been had you been single. These states have to create a gay-only tax form! And enact all the rules and regulations that go along with it.
These states are so fucked.
And I don't think most have figured it out yet. We certainly haven't seen any hue and cry about this issue. The first three and a half months of 2014 could be really interesting as these state's treasury departments start fielding calls and discover their rules do not allow married gay people to pay state taxes!
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)
We FINALLY got rid of Prop. H8 here in California but I hung my head in shame until it was wiped off our state Constitution. To this day I can't believe it passed in the first place.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)The movement has unstoppable momentum now. City by city, state by state until it's national.
Julie
irisblue
(32,966 posts)Ohio passed a constitutional amendment in 2004 to define marriage as male female only. My partner and I spent several hundred dollars so we could have legal protection for each other. I had been blocked by a late partners family from our house. It was very ugly.
IronLionZion
(45,423 posts)
I'm holding out as long as I can. I keep coming up with every more creative excuses. It infuriates my parents.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)cured my mother of her desire to see me married. My dad still every so often gets on that "kick". My mom tells me she thinks I have been smart not getting married, which winds up Dad...lol.
left on green only
(1,484 posts)I used to endure tons of crapola from my parents for not providing them with the grandchildren they felt the were entitled to (presumably as the result of my not having married). Finally one day I told them flat out, "Ya know, I think I would enjoy being a parent, almost as much as you did."
End of problem, except there was a repercussion. In their will, they left twice as much to my brother as they left to me; because after all, he had two little hungry, screaming mouths to feed and educate.
But I had the last laugh when I let the good times roll by spending all of mine during a period of sex (I mean six) months. It was my private campaign of economic stimulus to an area of our society that is so often overlooked and under appreciated.
flvegan
(64,407 posts)And with that, if that is the case, men choosing not to marry, I can only offer this...because women.
*lol* skips off, flamesuit in hand
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)And Benghazi.
Avalux
(35,015 posts) larkrake
(1,674 posts)and many men feel they cannot support a family with today's wages, and they are right. I engage in "friends with benefits". Marriage is for the children, not couples.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)children. Everyone makes the choice that is right for them. There is no one size fits all marriage or relationship.
ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)and the kids just sort of happened. we finally figured out WHY we were having kids and put a stop to THAT (I kid, I kid). We got married because we love each other and wanted then and want now to be in a committed relationship... so we put everything we have together into being a married couple. and it is great for us...
sP
DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)day i was at the beauty salon. one of the male hairdressers had gotten married 3 weeks before. he's 34. 2 of the female hairdressers recently got engaged -- both in their early 30s. my hairdresser has a 2 year old child. they live together but not married. i don't know if they ever will marry. she's 34. he's been married several times.
my husband and i were together for almost 42 years when he passed. we were married for almost 41 of those years. we were happy.
my friend is 55 and has never been married and never will be. he came from a dysfunctional family -- his parents fought constantly. his brother married young and was miserable. he's still married -- just turned 50. i think they can't afford to live apart.
my stepdaughter has been in a relationship for 9 years. his family will not accept her because she's not southern baptist. she sees him once of twice a week -- sometimes not at all because he's off with his friends. she's 44 -- never been married -- came close 10 years ago and the guy backed out. so she stays in this sick relationship. i think she's afraid of another rejection. she's nice looking, intelligent, has a good job and would love to be married. would have loved to have a child but at her age that's unlikely.
demosincebirth
(12,536 posts)
Freddie
(9,259 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)IronLionZion
(45,423 posts)I don't call them sluts. I just call them. 
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts) 
polly7
(20,582 posts)I know many women who are quite happy with an active social life - which includes sex when they want it, who nearly gag at the thought of being married. It's not just men who are choosing to see marriage as outdated and unnecessary - for many reasons, good and bad.
demosincebirth
(12,536 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)Imagine how shocked they'd be if they knew now it applies to women as well!
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)Then you have the ones who stood up before a preacher or judge and when they promised to love, honor and cherish, they were lying. So then you have to get a divorce because they don't love, honor and cherish you; they never will. I took marriage seriously; I discovered too late that they didn't really mean it. There is no way to make a marriage work if the other person doesn't want to honor those vows.
I found that out the hard way.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)they be man or woman. Such people are looking for something other than companionship.
But, some people come into marriage with good intentions and change as time goes on. Violating marriage vows could happen because one or both people change. The husband or wife may develop sexual needs that the other can't or won't satisfy. One person in the marriage may choose to go deeply into a professional pursuit and largely ignore the partner because of that. There are factors that end marriages that have nothing to do with lying in front of the Priest as marriage vows are made.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Ask someone what the opposite of love is, and they will say "hate", or the more clever answer "apathy". Of course, neither answer is correct. The opposite of love is manipulation.
Love is acting entirely in the interests of the other person for their sake alone. It is completely and totally unselfish. When you manipulate, you are acting on YOUR own interests to try to get the desired response.
So yes, giving your wife flowers hoping to have sex is not a loving gesture but giving her flowers to help cheer her up after a bad day is a loving gesture. Buying your kid designer clothes so YOU can be sure the other parent's notice is also not a loving gesture, working an extra job so you can afford the Air Jordans so the kid will not feel left on with the rest of the basketball team is a loving gesture.
Working on yourself as a human being is a lifelong venture.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)Yes, I am incredibly stupid when it comes to relationships, because I didn't know what a healthy relationship looked like. My parents griped at each other constantly and never resolved everything.
The first one couldn't keep it in his pants and flaunted his affairs. Slept with seven of my girlfriends. I didn't run around on him.
The second one told me that I had to "earn his respect" (after marriage) and of course, I would never meet his standards that he never explicitly told me. Never said he loved me, withheld affection, stopped taking baths in order to discourage me touching him, didn't think it was his responsibility to encourage me, basically thought women were "strange". Disappeared on weekends riding dirt bikes with his macho buddies. 
His idea of marriage was what I would call living in a boarding house.
Then he would do things that he told other people were to punish me, without telling me anything except "you don't do this and that". He had hobbies I enjoyed doing with him, but he stopped doing them with me after I had a baby, in order to punish me, because he was quote, "tied down by a baby".
After he nagged me into a physical breakdown, he told the babysitter that I was "faking it" and "bribed the doctor to put me in the hospital with pneumonia" (severe bacterial pneumonia, had to get my lungs rinsed out several times so I wouldn't die).
Some people just don't understand nice. I wonder how he would have treated me if I had ever argued with him or raised my voice against him? I still can't figure out what his problem is. I think it's called "sociopath".
I learned the hard way not to go out with men with bad attitudes about everything. Almost died before I learned to get away from tiresome people.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)I'm not getting married because I am:
*Happily single
*Non-fertile
*Committed to a non-monogamous lifestyle
*Uninterested in marriage or relationships
*Skeptical of long-term entanglements
*I like dating
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)
Warpy
(111,241 posts)The girlfriends often think marriage is unnecessary even if they have a child or two with the guy. They've seen the mess even an amicable civil divorce causes and want no part of it. It's also an economic decision, neither partner willing to pay the marriage penalty for spouses who don't stay home to raise the kiddies.
It's not a matter of men not wanting to be trapped. It's more often a mutual decision, no one wanting the expense and prolonged agony of divorce or the ding their paychecks will get from the tax man if they make it legal.
Relatively rare but increasing in number are the old folks who would marry for the companionship but are loath to let go of their full Social Security benefits in exchange for the married couple payment, which is considerably lower. They are increasingly doing shackups, too.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Why is this assumed to be a man's choice alone? maybe the women won't marry them.
cali
(114,904 posts)bluestate10
(10,942 posts)that most married women would want. I have thought about marriage in an analytical way. The best woman for me would be an extremely independent woman who largely wants nothing more out of the marriage than to produce one or two children, have the man meet his financial and child raising responsibilities, but otherwise stay out of the way.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
thelordofhell
(4,569 posts)Taitertots
(7,745 posts)As a Man....
I would like my spouse to earn enough so that I could stay home and we could spend all her time out of work together. I wish I could earn enough to offer her the same opportunity.
The modern American family life is becoming...
Two people work all day and spend their free time doing work around the house.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Well there's many a change in the winter wind
And a change in the cloud's design
There's many a change in a young man's heart
But never a change in mine
I never will marry
I'll be no man's wife
I expect to live single
All the days of my life
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)I would also ask why it seems there are also less relationships in general between people?
My guess is with the enhanced personal freedom modern society affords us, more people are free to do their own thing and pursue what they want in their life. And that causes people to be less compatible with each other than they would be under the old rigid social systems of the past where everyone was assigned a specific role and had to stick to it. No one buys that anymore so every relationship can come under much more scrutiny for compatibility with an ever increasingly more diverse cast of characters.
If two individuals are already quite different in their tastes and pursuits (and in today's society it is more likely they are) marriage entails a whole nother level of possible compromises people are just unwilling to make because we are so different from each other now.
People's wants out of life are just intersecting less and less and in a lot of cases they are clashing.
madville
(7,408 posts)I don't see any reason to ever do it again. The first time was because of an unexpected pregnancy and we were both young, the second time it was just so she could get on my insurance, getting married really had no other upside.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)niyad
(113,254 posts)TransitJohn
(6,932 posts)n/t
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)That's not an arguable issue. And I think it is a factor why some men are choosing not to get married in the numbers they use to.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)As one of the Western Spanish influenced states, the marital property laws are far more equal in Texas than they are in common law states. This equality has been true since 1836, the first year of the Republic. Texas is a community property state and a common law marriage state. And has no-fault divorce.
Women sometimes get "separate maintenance" for a limited time after divorce, but both spouses are expected to contribute equally to the support of the family.
It's not like New England with English law, or Louisiana, with French Law as a basis.
If Michelle Triola Marvin had lived in Texas instead of California, her case would have been a slam-dunk for common-law marriage (to Lee Marvin) AND community property.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)You get taken for years and finally stand up for yourself. Once the "user" party realizes they can not use you any more, they use the court system to take whatever you have left.
I have first hand experience with that. Fuck that noise ever again.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Both genders are marrying later and less frequently. There's not as much of a need for it.
arthritisR_US
(7,286 posts)them to that decision by constantly answering "no fecking way" to their marriage proposals
redqueen
(115,103 posts)marshall
(6,665 posts)Men and women have always carried on furtive sexual congress without the "benefit" of marriage. But in today's world marriage is more and more infrequently expected as a prerequisite for sex, so it can be done in the light of day. Which is also why we also have the growing trend in sexting.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)In 1953, 85% of men had jobs.
In 1977, 73% of men had jobs.
In 2000, 72% of men had jobs.
Today, 64% of men have jobs.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=o0i
Setting aside the issue of who is choosing... In my experience men ask and women choose.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)all three marriages were prompted by the woman, who would be basically waiting forever for that piece of paper from guys (who were going no where, but dragging their feet about it) . Same with having kids, women know that it gets much harder the longer you pt it off, and the guys I know are never in a rush about these things.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,868 posts)I don't think I'll ever trust someone enough to try it again.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)I stumbled across it while researching custody issues for a family member.
Further reading/viewing:
dontmarry.wordpress.co
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt230223.html
Book: Men on Strike by Dr. Helen Smith -- here's a review:
American society has become anti-male. Men are sensing the backlash and are consciously and unconsciously going “on strike.” They are dropping out of college, leaving the workforce and avoiding marriage and fatherhood at alarming rates. The trend is so pronounced that a number of books have been written about this “man-child” phenomenon, concluding that men have taken a vacation from responsibility simply because they can. But why should men participate in a system that seems to be increasingly stacked against them?
As Men on Strike demonstrates, men aren’t dropping out because they are stuck in arrested development. They are instead acting rationally in response to the lack of incentives society offers them to be responsible fathers, husbands and providers. In addition, men are going on strike, either consciously or unconsciously, because they do not want to be injured by the myriad of laws, attitudes and hostility against them for the crime of happening to be male in the twenty-first century. Men are starting to fight back against the backlash. Men on Strike explains their battle cry.(
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)"dropping out of college, leaving the workforce and avoiding marriage and fatherhood"
would this abandoning fatherhood be after they have the kids. you know,w alking away from responsibilityu leaving these kids to be raised in poverty?
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Never fail to post in the same vein....
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)why are you one my ass. i didnt post that. talk to the person that posted the article. on edit... or the person who wrote the article, or the men participating in this anti woman whatever
i would say that you are the one not being much of a surprise, a bogus attack on me instead of where it should be directed.
what you are really saying that seems to be consistent on du, is the anti woman crap is suppose to go unchallenged to not offend
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)No attack, simply a factual statement. All anyone has to do is look up some of your posts.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)"lol, living a loser life and blaming it on women."
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you are quoting my post. fuck, that i have to spell this out to you. i will try to talk really slow for you.
you say i make up anti woman stuff
it is IN THE POST i replied to. i did not pull it out of the air. i REPLIED to a post that had the snivelling men accomplishing nothing in life blaming women because they are ANTI WOMAN, per the post i replied to. geeez.
go after that poster that brought in an article about men snivelling about doing nothing in life cause they are anti woman
go after the person who wrtoe the article about the snivelling men whining because the are anti women
go after the very men that are doing the snivelling whiney because they are anti woman
but noooooo.... you do not address them. god no. get all over me and try to make a stupid ass case against me.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)They will get where your coming from soon enough
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)nothing.
whatever dude.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts) seabeyond
(110,159 posts)because of " incoherent babbling"? dude. we see your 3 or more posts that you responded to that " incoherent babbling". even in this you fail in argument. are you .... high.
lmfao
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts) NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)You willingness to attempt to continue communication in good faith with those who communicate in bad faith is a true reflection of your character. You want everyone to understand the realities in society and are willing to go to great lengths to try and break through to someone. I must say, some seem to be a lost cause, not able to admit to the true realities facing women.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)
BainsBane
(53,029 posts)Any educated person knows that. That you would prefer not to confront reality is your problem entirely.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)I'm not denying at all that sexism isnt built into society. As usual you miss the real point entirely, it's not about sexism at all.
Seriously stick with fluff.
BainsBane
(53,029 posts)It's always the same.
I'm sorry you find it so difficult to engage in an actual discussion of the subject matter and devote yourself entirely to personal hostilities. But if that's all you can manage, so be it.
BainsBane
(53,029 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=58126
http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/?com=journals&uid=273497&page=7
To the woman who objected to Weiner's language choices that you somehow decided was about passion (
the guy never even had sex with the women. ). you treated her with derision, as you have done with me, seabeyond, and I'm guessing, many, many other women.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3338175
Speaking of which: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2946582
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2525636
And then there is this, which is explained by the examples above: http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1018&pid=400823
Here's a hint. Women like men who actually like them. The same holds true for men. No one wants to be with someone who holds them in contempt. It's human nature.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Really ugly judgmentalist terminology there.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)and for most of the problems in society as well.
So, yeah.
BainsBane
(53,029 posts)that some are unable to distinguish between their own personal issues and political ideology, but the general point is the same. Some project their own failings in life onto women as a whole.
BainsBane
(53,029 posts)Men's Rights Association propaganda. It is the gender equivalent of White Supremacist ideology.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)It does. I've seen message boards filled with posts from men who are embittered against women for various reasons.
The OP asked why men are no longer getting married. I posted a possible reason: a men's movement.
No reason to scold me. That reflects badly on you.
BainsBane
(53,029 posts)I thought you were portraying that quote as if it were an actual description of women's behavior. The MRA clearly does exist. I will edit my post.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)HappyMe
(20,277 posts)
There are still people that can't get married.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)They're like supposed "right wing militias" in the US - you hear about them all of the time, but In reality their numbers are so small to the point of insignificance. The few among their ranks scream loudly, but there's still very few of them.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and see what pops up. i think this is what our reality is. it is not the few.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)The AVoiceForMen, etc. losers that are actually part of a group. This is not to be confused with misogynist trolls or "teh feminists iz evils!1!" idiots. There's many of those.
I always thought MRAs are a different breed than the other two. Same hate, but the only difference is MRAs are organized.
A valid comparison would be racist YouTube trolls vs. the real KKK or Nazis.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i too felt it was low in numbers. i do not know anymore.
tapermaker
(244 posts)All my romantic adventures have been with women that have turned out to be lesbian or bi- sexuals.My first time was with a highschool varsity basketball player.After a yr together she informed me that she was gay.I was married for 7 yrs in my mid twenties.I traveled for work ,when I came home one night I was told by my wife she fell in love with a women coworker at the post office.both these women are great people that I still have contact with. In my 30`s I had a young 19yrold virgin move in with me .We had a daughter together.Once she had the baby she ran away with a neighbor lady taking my child with them . It took 2 yrs to get her back from the courts. So at the ripe age of 35 I was given full custody. Fast forward 20 yrs Since this time I have pretty much blocked myself off from further frustrations.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)Actually, there are some pretty compelling reasons for my partner and I to marry, not least of which is assuring that she gets my pension-- including lifetime health care-- when I die. But our previous marriages did not end happily, so I'm reluctant to do it again. We will almost certainly marry at some point, but neither of us seems in any hurry at the moment.
redgreenandblue
(2,088 posts)hard-working and more ambitious than the generation of their parents?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)
tc45a
(12 posts)but not sure about more ambitious or hardworking. We have a relaxed culture today. Everyone wants to live the leisure life. Even how we dress for work.
For instance very few new doctors are wanting their own practice, they would rather work for the hospital, work their 40 hours and leave and enjoy life. I hear this from old the old doc's who tell me this all the time. The new ones coming out of med school do not want to put in a large amount of hours.
The general trend today is many are not as hard working as their parents or grandparents. Sorta like what the Japanese went through previous to us. No longer wanting to go on the knife for big business.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)
Populist_Prole
(5,364 posts)To put it another way, I was "allowed" to skip past the "you have to get married now because it's the next thing in life's timeline for someone of your age" stage many of my peers couldn't and then once my job/career made it possible to live somewhat comfortably I was having too good a time and I didn't want to change anything.
The backdrop was I was the oldest child of a nasty divorce, the only of all my brothers/sisters that really experienced a pre-divorce nuclear family lifestyle and watched as it melted down. It was very unpleasant. From then on I craved comfortable stability...one that was denied me the first 20 years of my life.
I never did, and never will rule out marriage but I can see how inertia of single living will only make it harder for me to find "Mrs Right".
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)(it took four tries to get it right), but if anything happened to my husband, I would never, ever, ever get married again. Never. Until the last 10 years, my experience with the institution was not positive. Too much training involved.
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)Do you have some statistics to offer that show that men are choosing not to marry? I seem to be going to weddings about as often as ever. Men are involved in most of them.
tc45a
(12 posts)Nice to come home to someone or have my wife walk in the door. Always having someone to do something with, spooning in bed on a lazy rainy Sunday watching a movie. Long trail hikes which we are about to do in 10 minutes talking about nearly every subject matter.
I went 3 years between gf's once and never want to go back to those lonely times. And the sex truly is better with someone you love, not that I did not enjoy the flings I had before marriage.
Living together would not have been the same. We feel as one. Our relationship felt different after marriage in a good way.
Proles
(466 posts)My opinion might change when I reach my thirties, but until then I'd rather build my wealth, focus on traveling and getting additional education.
I think more people need to learn how to enjoy life on their own.
There is no denying people aren't getting married as much. Personally, I fear divorce and the costs, paperwork and emotional turmoil it would cause. Statistics show I would probably end up divorced, so why bother?
Codeine
(25,586 posts)If my fiancee and I weary of each other we just walk away, no strings attached.
tc45a
(12 posts)that is if you are interested in getting married one day.
The best lot's in a new subdivision get bought first, the best produce in the store get's picked first, the best goods get's bought first on Black Friday. Humans are not any different.
I hear it all the time from men and women who regret waiting too long. Slimmer pickings in the late 30's and early 40's on up. Divorced men and women tell me the same thing, very difficult to find quality people in their 50's.
Don't get me wrong, there is a ton of great people in the late 30's and early 40's but let's be honest and cut out the crap. Many people cannot find someone to marry because they have:
1. Crappy personality
2. No ambition
3. Bad vice habits
4. Character flaws
5. Generally not a nice person
Numerous people in their 40's and 50's wish to remain single by choice I'm not including these people in this category.
Proles
(466 posts)That's quite possibly the worse reason to get married, in my opinion, is to do so out of fear.
Anyways, women tend to be more attracted to older men who are more established in their careers rather than fresh out of college "boys." Unfair perhaps, but that's how it is.
As for your list of character flaws, lets face it, pretty much everyone has at least 2 or 3 of those 5 deficiencies.
tc45a
(12 posts)thing is no longer the case. Huffpost had article on this last year. Women have successful careers now and no longer want or need an older man.
"Trophy" husbands is the latest trend. Women are wanting younger, good looking guys.. https://www.google.com/#q=women+want+trophy+husbands
I would never marry a woman with any of the deficiencies I posted, especially crappy personality and no ambition. Vices? I would never marry a woman who lied or did drugs or had character flaws..character flaws as in shallowness, that sort of thing.
I understand what you mean about marrying out of fear of being alone. I suspect as you get older coming home to an empty house will start to suck and not having someone to share your life's accomplishments get's old. Plus all your friends in your age group will be married and you will fill left out.
I was terrified about getting married and went through everything you are . So glad I met my wife.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)And having a piece of paper doesn't prove anything to anyone.
In my opinion, except for health insurance (which I guess isn't such a big deal with the ACA), there is no reason to get married. Ever.
It is a sexist institution, in my opinion. And about men "owning" women.
They give up their freedom and their name. No thanks.
raccoon
(31,110 posts)that they don't want someone to wait on, to placate and cater to.
It used to be that most women had to marry because of economic necessity. Now they don't. And they
don't put up with as much crap as they used to.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)Not many younger guys expect this anymore. It's fairly unheard of in this area at least. Plopping yourself on the couch and not putting in a 50-50 effort is asking for a butt kicking.
raccoon
(31,110 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)
ejpoeta
(8,933 posts)and virtually everyone there was divorced. I feel like I am odd or something. My parents were married for 24 years until my Mom died. Then my dad and his girlfriend were together for over 20 years. I have 5 siblings. I have 3 older sisters that have been married for at 24 and 25 years. My brother has been married for 14 or 15 years and had a 4 year old son at the time. My little sister has been married for 15 years... she married at 19. I was the last to marry.... My husband and I were together for 10 years before we got married. My oldest was the flower girl.... she was 4 or 5 at the time. My second child was born two months later.... For my husband and I, we had already made that commitment. The marriage was for everyone else... We wanted it for legal protections. And I changed my name because it would make it easier since everyone kept calling me Mrs. Ostrander. Marriage isn't always easy.... no relationship is. But I know I have one person who believes in me. We are outnumbered... us and 3 kids! Bob is my best friend. He makes me laugh... He loves me unconditionally. And I love him no matter what. Sometimes I think people jump in too fast and by the time they figure out they aren't compatible it becomes a very sticky situation. Or they discover a controlling personality... or so many things that end up causing friction. At least for me, being able to listen to the other person and work together towards a common goal is key. But it doesn't work unless both parties are on the same page and willing to walk that path together.
Marriage isn't for everyone. It isn't as important as it once was.... to me it is merely a piece of paper for the state (and your family, I guess). Some folks plan a wedding without considering the marriage. What it means. I got married at the family reunion. Our commitment was already made. The theme: the 60s. My aunt made a cake, my dad had a propeller hat on and my uncle played his guitar. I couldn't ask for anything better.
Not everyone wants to make that commitment. They should not be chided or called names because of it. We all have the right to make choices for ourselves. As long as everyone knows beforehand, then that is all that matters. Marriage is not what it once was. And I really hate the saying about making an honest woman out of her.... Oh i see.... the man can do whatever and sleep with whoever and it's just fine... but a woman needs a man to make HER honest. but i digress! What's great is having the choice. That we can choose to marry or not. Choose to have kids or not.
Marr
(20,317 posts)I've had long term girlfriends, several of which are now my most cherished, life-long, platonic friendships. They feel the same way about this issue, or so they tell me.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)Spend the rest of my life with. IF I find someone I would consider marrying and then decide not to, I'll let you know. Otherwise my answer is "haven't found the right person".
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Less men getting married equals less children. We have to start somewhere on the overpopulation problem. This may be a good start.
flvegan
(64,407 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)starting at 97. not the post 97. but the subthread.
give me one of your brilliant arguments proving me wrong. what in the world is flvegan talking about. agreeing that men are no longer looking for jobs, being educated, marrying and being fathers cause they are anti woman? you think that is what flygan is suggesting?
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)he is not talking about you. that you are special, or with the oppressor. steinam said it perfectly about the women that hang with the oppressor feeling they are part of the group. you only belong as long as you tow the male line. you think you are accepted. but you are not. you just enable. we reasonably know that i personally am not the reason so many men are not marrying. so it has to be my behavior as a woman that he has an issue with. and that can only be that i dared to speak out and not take an insult given.
but pretend msantrope.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)from your post.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)post, make any kind of sense out of the post, to show me he is not insulting all women.
lawyer right? compelling arguments? i dont gotta..... lol
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)is your "oppressor?"
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)general is why you do not clarify.... anything
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)who are claiming 'oppression.'
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)woman list.
i am off to enjoy my day,
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)can't pick up on the social cue an 0-6 jury is trying to give you is pretty telling.
Yes...seabeyond...you are the one who was rude. You can argue that flvegan's pointing out your rudeness is also rude, but the core issue remains that your rude subthread does not make you a victim of oppression.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)argument. woosh, about time.
it doesnt make sense, but what the hell, right?
not seeing how i am personally responsible for men not marrying. really has nothing to do with what flvegan said. but hey... if it works for you to get on with your day, that works.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the anti woman spew. right?
bah hahaha. like if women do not hear that all the time, if we dare to address the ugly. we werent nice enough. how well you fit yourself into the conditioning of how women are to behave. which kinda reinforces what i said above. thank you.
you have made my point. repeatedly.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)board, and then cheer it on vociferously if one is going to have a serious discussion about gender issues.
It floors me that you and grasswire are high-fiving yourselves over something written by a rightwing crackpot who blogs at Pajamas Media. Pajamas Media....Brietbart for the even stupider.
That is where you are rude, sea, and you would not tolerate this from a male if the situation were reversed.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you have well put me in my place. are we done yet?
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)insults by not apologizing.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)now. for real, done with this silliness.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)on gender issues. The use of winger crackpots as your source of truth is rude and insulting to the rest of us.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and others are having a field day jumping on the band wagon insulting me, for being snarky with an anti female group.
but hey, glad you jumped in with this really false clarification of flvegans insult to me and all women. maybe it will build steam and take off.
tell me how this fits flvegans statement that the reason men are not marrying is the 97 subthread? oh wait, i already asked a number of times and none of you have the answer.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)A Pajamas Media blogger.
It's been interesting, reading your claims of 'insult.'
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)making false claims i made up anti woman stuff, while grasswires post was all about anti woman. reading comprehension msanthrope.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Why would you find it persuasive? Lmfao
Logical
(22,457 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)really people, if i am so fuckin out there, you tell me what flvegan is saying when he says the subthread at 97 is the reason men are not marrying.
because he will not be back in to clarify his own statement. he throw out insults and runs away, never to be seen in a thread again.
flvegan
(64,407 posts)You want to dance, lets get at it or shut the FUCK up.
I'm RIGHT HERE.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)an article had been posted about women not marrying, and if in response, someone posted an extreme example from some quack on the Internet about an extreme minority of women...well, it would be pitchforks and torches time.
That some posters cannot understand when they have been rude....nay, when they claim they are the victim, and cannot even comprehend that they are the ones giving offense....just floors me.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)hoot.
but hey. you insult me and that is cool. flvegan insults me and no problem. the other poster insults me and no problem.
i insult an article describing a pathetic man, and i am the problem. though i did not put the article up, write that article nor start the anti woman group. merely commented on it. right.... there is that compelling argument.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)you...they've merely pointed out your inappropriate subthread.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)flvegan
(64,407 posts)Accuse me by name, you better be damn fucking specific about how I insulted you. And then how I was "crying victim of women like (you)" because, thankfully...no, I'll save it.
Now step up.
flvegan
(64,407 posts)Be severely specific.
BainsBane
(53,029 posts)Point, aim, miss.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)flvegan
(64,407 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)this would be simply a mean insult. as i asked the other poster. am i causing men to not marry? is it the fact that i speak out? i am being insulted stupidly in that subthread. am i suppose to stay quiet? since surely i am not the cause of men not marrying, are you two men suggesting that i represent all women and not staying quiet, taking an insult is stopping men from getting married?
tell me what this compelling argument is of yours.
or is it the fact you two men throw out an insult to me and i do not slink away with hurt feelings?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The entire premise of the question is steeped in such biased assumptions that even the most outrageously biased answers seem legitimate. The underlying question "why do younger americans delay marriage?" is phrased in such a way that women's difficulty finding "marrying type" men is men's fault, and many of the responses are dedicated to deciding which stick to poke men with to make them straighten out.
The subthread reads like a competition of who hates men more.
They are "living a loser life" because the system is set up for them to fail, and personally I don't think it's funny. They are systematically denied the education and opportunities which might arrest their fall.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the post. thank you so much for the validation to the statement that i am the cause for all of men to turn away from women. wow. the power i have. k.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i would like to see ONE person, just one, call them out for being anti white, or anti christian because they called these hate groups losers.
but... on du we have a mans org that is anti woman. and because i call them out, it makes me anti man.
and all of a sudden, men that use women as excuses for their failures, i become the one that is dissing all men.
the thinking here is different.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Yes. This is what I'm talking about.
Being hesitant to marry and burning crosses on peoples yards are qualitatively different kinds of bias.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Are to Kkk. Yes Jeff. That would be the comparison. I was speaking to an anti woman hate group. Not to men. Is that not obvious to you?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)who we are and why men are not marrying? are you insulting all women, per my posts?
what is it you do not like flvegan, that i speak? that i call out stupid? that i call out insults? that i do not sit quietly and allow your insult? or the other posters that you point out in that subthread.
or do you simply insult a duer and not have the courage to clarify?
Response to seabeyond (Reply #170)
Post removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you people are amazing. do you think people cannot read the whole post? that they will just take that little you pull out as a fact? only the people playing a game will pretend that what you have done is even kinda honest.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)flvegan
(64,407 posts)Didn't see your name in my response. Hmmm...
You represent ALL women? Words in my mouth, much? Is that what your kind does? Please clarify before I respond further, lest I suffer (LOL) more of your...whatever that is.
For the record, in these regards, you don't call out stupid. You...nope, won't do it. Not gonna have a deleted post.
Missn-Hitch
(1,383 posts)41 years old, I am fortunate to have a good job and I am currently in a 5 year relationship. At first, we wanted to have kids. 1 year passed and we decided to have 1. Well, you see where this is going after 5 years.
We are hitting rough patches lately. I have been contemplating finishing up the 2nd half of life alone. Admittedly for selfish reasons but not completely. There are times when I feel incapable of making someone happy. Maybe I am the one making things impossible.
It is a little frightening to think of finishing the final chapters of my journey alone - not sharing the journey with someone.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)1. I like children but don't really care to be a Father.
2. Most of the Women I've dated in the past year have been either..non-political, Republican, non-science.
3. Maybe I'm at fault...I use fault for lack of another word ????
I don't think anybody I've dated would be a Bad wife....they were just not for me.
BainsBane
(53,029 posts)Only they don't like to admit they are married. My impression is there is no shortage of married men, certainly not in my age range.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)In my generation and even more commonly in those previous, it was explicit and later implicit that the sole purpose for any sexual relationship was to get married and have kids. It is still a strong influence today, but since women do have more opportunity to support themselves (though still unequal), they are not so dependent on "getting a man".
LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)I would have no interest in it at all. I see marriage as primarily a religious ceremony and a skeptic like me could not possibly care less what these hypothetical gods think about my relationship with another person.
If my significant other were religious and wanted a marriage I would go along with it because it makes them happy. That is it. But the law is so entangled with marriage now that I probably would want to get married for the rights associated with it.
[p class=post-sig style=margin-top:0px;text-align:center;] 
steve2470
(37,457 posts)Bad reasons: Loneliness, family pressure, social expectations, I could probably name a few others.
Good reasons: True compatibility, love, companionship, other reasons people have mentioned.
If more people thought things through thoroughly and got married for "the right reasons", there would
a) be a lot less marriages ; b) be a lot more happy marriages and less infidelity; c) less divorce; and d) a lot more
happy well-adjusted children. Now mind you, two people do NOT have to get married to have well-adjusted happy
children.
Bluestate10 really nailed it here:
A person doesn't have to be an incurable romantic. Some people just need a person to come home to each day. The biggest hurdles for marriage is two people finding someone that they are compatible with and being able to adapt as dynamics of the relationship changes with time.
Too many people pay more attention when buying a watch or car than they do when selecting a mate. Characteristics of a person that are on full display if a suitor pays attention get missed and that leads to trouble in marriage. It is possible to learn the most about a person in situations where they don't expect to be found out, those situations happen many times during a day or week.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023969281#post63
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Genetically Modified Organisms. Genetically modified Orgasms. Generically Milked Ostriches. That God-Damn Auto Tune. Unleaded gasoline. 24 Hour Mini Marts. Electronic Toll Devices as opposed to good old-fashioned human staffed tollbooths. Teaching Evolution in schools. Boy Bands. Dancing With The Stars. The fact that the Star Wars prequels sucked.
Oh, yeah, I forgot one more: Why the fuck should I care what other people choose to do?
steve2470
(37,457 posts)
All kidding aside, I agree with you.
JVS
(61,935 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)...don't ask.
get the red out
(13,461 posts)People are more free to live in ways that best fit them now, with less stigma than a generation ago. That's just my guess.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)...that we've expected people to follow for a long, long time.
In the 1950's, if you weren't married before the age of 23, you were considered an Old Maid and it was considered odd.
People started getting married later, and of course the boom in the divorce rate (50 percent of marriages end in divorce) caused people to rethink this stalwart institution.
Of course, women rarely worked outside of the home just a few decades ago. Now, that is not the case. As women have their own careers, money and lives--this also leads to fewer marriages.
I think our society is in the throes of re-examining what is expected of us. People are getting married later, or not getting married at all. They're also having fewer children or not having children at all.
I think we're shedding some of the norms and asking more questions about these norms. Look at organized religion. People are leaving in droves.
I'm happily married and also a stay-at-home mom. However, that's my choice. I'm happy to see women and men making choices that fit for them, instead of making choices based on societal pressures.
I'd like to think that human beings are evolving.
Have you seen the hysteria generated from the right, due to fewer marriages/fewer children? They've got wingnuts writing books about how essential it is for conservatives to have more babies. They're completely terrified of the progress that is happening.
PasadenaTrudy
(3,998 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Come to me, she said, my girl
I must teach you of the world
It is full of hungry men
Who will drag you to their den
But their feelings they won't share
And of yours they do not care
And they think that they're so smart
But they're not
Men are stupid, men are stupid
And that's just the way it's got to be
Happy anniversary
Come to me my boy, he said
Better get this in your head
All the girls will use their sex
To get a yoke around your neck
Then they'll try to make you change
And when they fail, hold you to blame
And they don't care what's real or true
Like we do
Women are evil, women are evil
And that's just the way it's got to be
Happy anniversary
You'd like to change it but there ain't no way
Cause you're a slave to your DNA
It's so unfair but it's the game we play
We're only slaves to our DNA
Men are stupid, women are evil
Happy anniversary
And is that the way it has to be?
Happy anniversary
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Omnith
(171 posts)
Xyzse
(8,217 posts)I am nearing my mid-30s, but haven't had that.
Let's try it in chronological order:
Grade School - I was in a Private Parochial ALL Boys School. No girls there.
Middle School - I was finally placed in a co-ed school in America. I was harassed by a girl who "Likes Me"... more like she found some shy guy who blushes at the slightest thing. It was the first time I saw PDA(Public Displays of Affection), and I was frickin shocked. I thought I wanted to be a Monk/Hermit, that girl made that feeling much stronger.
High School - Junior/Senior year was the first time I finally was interested with someone. We had an off and on relationship till mid-way to College.
College - There were a bunch of girls who I was friendly with, however I have always been stuck with my off and on relationship that I just relegated everyone to "Friends Only".
This continued till after college.
I fall for my female best friend who lives half-way across the country. This took a long while, and she has become my standard in regards to having a relationship, if even then.
So now, I am still single. Still friends with my female best friend, who we have this odd long distance thing going on. If someone comes and sweeps us off our feet, fine, but otherwise, we have this affectionate and fulfilling friendship.
I am living a monkish lifestyle. I work, work out, keep busy, hang with friends but it is just that. It is never more than that. I think I am fine as I am. I have brothers and sisters who can be in the gene pool so it has not been a priority for me. If it happens, then it happens... Otherwise, I will remain single. It isn't worth it to be with someone who I can't be a partner to.
Prism
(5,815 posts)As women reached economic parity, they didn't need to marry to ensure their security. This, to me, seems like a positive development and the biggest driving force in the marriage decline.
Student loans and a crap economy are forcing more and more twenty and even thirtysomething males to live at home or live with multiple roommates, and generally lead a somewhat fluid existence whose parameters can change at any given moment. People don't want to "settle down" when they cannot say for certain where they are headed or where they'll even be in six months. Hell, I'm in my early 30s, I would love kids, but I know it's just not going to happen until I sense economic stability in my life. I do not sense that stability in this economy. So, I'm content to remain unmarried and say, "Meh, maybe someday."
Given the first two, I feel like men and women are more segregated socially than they used to be. There were always "nights with the guys" and that sort of thing, but both online and off, I'm perceiving a kind of increased clannishness between the sexes. Oh, sure, both sexes are having sex, of course, but with less attachment hung on that interaction, social sexual contracts seem to have a more make-then-break quality to them.
Culture seems to encourage this as more and more hobbies/interests/marketed consumables seem to target one gender if not actively pit them against the other.
It's a total thing.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)They don't want to grow up.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)I am a 30 year old male, unmarried, and single and don't plan on marrying anytime soon, if ever. For my age group men and women are not really interested in marriage in general and both genders are choosing to opt out of this institution for similar reasons.
However, this shaming language is often directed at men for supposedly being more immature, but women are viewed as making a logical, rational choice to pursue their careers. I am making a rational choice, just like women in my age group, to pursue my career as well and I am currently happy but no means does that make me immature.
Just my honest opinion.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Do they fall into the don't want to grow up category?
Heterosexuals have the luxury of deciding to marry or not. Many lgbt people do not.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)I mean, honestly, who cares of people have sex without marriage and who really believes that some omnipotent sky being is keeping tabs on it all except a shrinking, older group of the extremely religious...
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Having my first child around April 18th. Fiance already has a 3 year old. I'm 40 and she's 28. I was beginning to think I wouldn't have a chance. I'm a social worker and she is a elementary school teacher.
TroglodyteScholar
(5,477 posts)Had another chance to marry recently, but we would need two incomes and couldn't both find work in our fields in the same town. She dumped me because I wouldn't propose before we knew how we would ever live together (or even in the same state).
We're both educated, hard-working people, but neither of us makes enough to reliably support the other, much less a family. So basically what I'm saying is economics is the answer.
wickerwoman
(5,662 posts)With modern medical advances, people in their 20s and 30s today are likely to live well past 100, possibly up to 140 or 150. Saying "til death do us part" when that meant 40 years is a bit different to saying it when it means 130 years.
I don't want to spend 100 years of my life not eating what I want to eat, seeing movies I don't really want to see, pretending to care about things I don't care about, having to have a goddamn debate over what style of furniture to buy or how much to pay for my internet plan. I don't want to spend 100 years in a city I don't want to live in because someone else's dream job is there. I don't want to change diapers or wash someone else's dirty dishes or watch my savings be drained by someone else's medical problems or addictions or mid-life crisis. I don't want to put up with someone else's snarky, sulky bullshit all the time.
Being single is absolutely fabulous. The world is overpopulated already, so no pressure to reproduce. Call me selfish, but I think the real question is why does anyone still choose to get married?