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Is Snowden buying asylum by fanning the flames of anti-Americanism?
Didn't this Snowden/Greenwald thing start out being about the NSA spying on American citizens? How did it morph into being about America spying on foreign countries? Why would it?
One possible reason is simple. Snowden's Russian asylum runs out in July 2014. He needs to start finding somewhere else to go. And that raises a huge conflict of interest. It is now good for Snowden to try to portray the United States as some kind of "Great Spying Satan" to anyone and everyone who will listen. By fanning the flames of anti-Americanism abroad, Snowden increases the likelihood of future grants of asylum. If he enrages the populace of foreign countries against the United States, that populace might force or allow its leadership to harbor Snowden after his Russian asylum runs out. It's terrible for America but good for Snowden.
I'm not sure his American fan club noticed the change in message emphasis by Snowden, so I thought I would call it out. What if Snowden had led with revelations that the NSA was spying on Brazil and Germany? Would he have gotten his U.S. fans on board with that? I doubt it. Now that it looks like Snowden is arguably playing some seriously dirty pool, will they stay with him?
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Vox Moi
(546 posts)It would be Anti-American not to.
karynnj
(59,501 posts)The WAY he did this has definitely been harmful to the United States. I know you will and can argue that the real cause of any damage was the spying itself. While that is true, it is also true that the damage in HOW it came out was severe.
I don't believe that he even tried to go to anyone - whether Rand Paul or Pat Leahy (a very liberal chair of a relevant committee - with a history that would suggest he could be trusted. Had he gone this way, there would have been no law broken and there likely would have been the same discussion we are having now.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)and he would be dead or in jail by now.
The NSA spying does not permit anyone to react to or disclose the NSA wrongdoing.
Other whistleblowers had tried going to Congress. It is not safe. The NSA is watching as I type this into my computer.
That is why what the NSA is doing is so harmful, so dangerous to our democracy. It silences legitimate criticism.
karynnj
(59,501 posts)He also could have told Leahy quite a bit without violating any law as Leahy has the clearance to know.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Surely the NSA places its own employees' telephones and communication devices under surveillance. Snowden would have known whether he had any alternative to what he did.
karynnj
(59,501 posts)Here are possibilities:
1) Go to his office and wait to speak to him
2) Go to his office in Vermont during the times when he is out of DC. He is known to be approachable.
3) Attend an open hearing for a committee he is on -- and then speak to him.
4) Call on a private mobile phone that the government does not know is his.
Even if he called on his private home phone (likely a mobile), the MOST the NSA would have is that there was a call between that number and Leahy's office.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)karynnj
(59,501 posts)He supposedly took that job just for that. Not to mention it is as easy to get to DC as to China.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)D.C. You have to have a reason to go to D.C. or Vermont from Hawaii.
Besides, it is clear from the guarded statements that Wyden made that even senators and members of the House were not able to discuss the surveillance in public. And if you watch the Guardian video here,
http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/nov/01/snowden-nsa-files-surveillance-revelations-decoded
you learn that Congress was not informed of all that Snowden brought out. It takes a long time, vetting and patience to catch the attention of Congress. Think of the young soldier who was raped, what a hard time she had getting the attention of Congress.
No. I think Snowden did the best that he could. There wasn't any realistic or workable alternative in my view.
karynnj
(59,501 posts)I will give you that his motives may have been good, but his giving completely unvetted stuff to Greenwald and others left him with no ability to control whatever damage he caused.
Nothing Wyden says suggests that SNowden coming before a closed hearing of the committee would not have led to change.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)We deserve to be world pariahs.
We need to own up to our sins, stop doing them and try to make amends.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Thank you.
Cordelio Maldonado
(18 posts)However, Ron Wyden has made it clear that he knew many things that he only hinted of (without clearly explaining what he was talking about) due to the fact that Senators by law can't disclose secret information.
Therefore, your claim that Leahy or Paul would have opened the same can of worms opened by Poitras, Greenwald, and Gellman is off base.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Cordelio Maldonado
(18 posts)
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)All Snowden did was tell the truth. He is soft-spoken and unemotional. He didn't stir anything up.
He just told the truth.
If anyone has hurt the US, it's our overzealous, out-of-control spying networks and those who run and manage it.
pnwmom
(108,976 posts)about our spying on other countries. That is an entirely separate issue from his leaks about internal US surveillance.
Leaking information about our spying approaches treason, depending on the circumstances.
I don't think Snowden, Greenwald or Assange are any kind of heroes or the martyrs they would like to be. Three gigantic narcissistic jerks. Especially Greenwald and Assange. Somebody was just using Eddie. Snowden goes to China, then Russia? Spare me. It's damn annoying when the person becomes bigger than the story.
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)UnAmerican would be shredding the constitution
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Im tired of people worshipping it. It was written by a bunch of old white men who didn't have issues with people owning slaves. Now the same constitution is allowing a tiny faction within a political party to paralyze our government. The parliamentary system in Europe and Canada is superior IMO.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Consider yourself outed
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)I've been outed on the interwebz! The horror!
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)However, the Constitution is the law of the land. If we are a nation of laws, then we must adhere to the Constitution however flawed it may be.
Ordinary citizens are not allowed to ignore the law because they think it is flawed. Legislators, military commanders and security state bureaucrats should not be able to do so either.
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)Oh yes - so much better
last1standing
(11,709 posts)Please explain why Snowden had an obligation to keep the NSA's illegal activities secret that overrode his obligation to warn the American people.
xiamiam
(4,906 posts)there is no other reason anyone would support the nsa's action on a supposed democratic website. .pitiful excuse in my opinion
randome
(34,845 posts)That the NSA spies on other countries? Meh. That they have copies of the telecoms' metadata reports? Again, meh.
And none of this is illegal.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
last1standing
(11,709 posts)It's been proved that the NSA has been intercepting emails, hacking into major internet services, listening to telephone calls, etc... all without warrants. Those are all illegal.
Also, if you don't care that the NSA is apparently spying on allies without the knowledge or approval of our president or secretary of state, then it follows that you would also approve of bush's shadow government that didn't answer to the people.
randome
(34,845 posts)To individuals who are not U.S. citizens.
Except the 'listening to phone calls'. I don't think they have anything to do with that. That's the FBI's responsibility -with the appropriate warrants and such.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
last1standing
(11,709 posts)The NSA has hacked into US companies as well as intercepted emails and telephone calls between US citizens so long as one part of the communication leaves the country - which is nearly every single communication including those of the House of Representatives.
So try all you like, the NSA is engaging in illegal activity.
randome
(34,845 posts)If the NSA has a warrant to monitor the communications of Suspect A, and that person receives an email from an American citizen, how does the NSA 'unsee' that email?
The answer is: they do the next best thing and hand that information over to the FBI.
If they monitor a Skype conversation, how do they not watch potentially innocent individuals communicating with Suspect A?
If we think the laws and rules need to be changed, I don't see that anyone has a problem with that.
But all this hand-wringing and screaming ala Breitbart "Stop spying on us!" does not move us closer to that objective.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)It cracks me up how hard (and increasingly desperate) you post on every thread about how trivial it all is....
Please proceed governor.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)they are hoarding.
They also collect all of our credit card statements. That means they check your statements too.
Do you think the government needs to know where you ate dinner with your girl- or boyfriend or spouse last Saturday night, whether you buy caviar or McDonalds. Do you think that is information the government needs to know to keep us safe?
This is vast collection of the metadata. It isn't just a collection of the records of criminal suspects.
How do you, in your mind justify this? If you can justify it, why is it necessary? Why is it a priority in your mind?
randome
(34,845 posts)Mr. Wyden said that the government’s theory of its power under the Patriot Act to collect records about people from third parties is “essentially limitless,” saying it could use that authority to gather in bulk medical, financial, credit card and gun-ownership records or lists of “readers of books and magazines deemed subversive.” He also dwelled on the potential for cellphones to serve as secret monitoring devices, saying everyone is carrying a “combination phone bug, listening device, location tracker and hidden camera.”
IOW, the potential is there. I agree, make sure it never becomes a reality.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/24/us/politics/nsa-director-lobbies-house-on-eve-of-critical-vote.html?_r=0
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
last1standing
(11,709 posts)We have to be reasonable (by your definition, of course) by quietly working within the system (never mind that the system is broken) to get more legislation on the agenda that, if by some miracle it passes, will be ignored in the same manner the criminals at the NSA have already ignored current laws.
Makes sense to me.
randome
(34,845 posts)Your local police department?
Laws. Regulations. Rules.
If you don't think any of that counts, then why even bother getting up in the morning?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
last1standing
(11,709 posts)The laws, regulations and rules that are supposed to stop these people from spying on us are being broken with no repercussion for those doing it.
Why bother getting up in the morning? Because I'd rather be awake to the problem than continue to doze in ignorance.
randome
(34,845 posts)As in my examples above, it is impossible to monitor only foreign individuals. We have no evidence that the NSA is deliberately spying on American citizens on American soil.
If their current definition of whom they can monitor is too broad, scale it back.
What other solution is there? Disband the NSA? How are you going to do that? By passing a law.
Laws and oversight and accountability are all we ever have. Pressing for more in regards to the NSA seems justified.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
last1standing
(11,709 posts)It's a misleading argument to say that the NSA only monitors communications with a foreign element when nearly every communication leaves this country before reaching its destination - even when all parties reside in the US. Many people have pointed this out but you continue to ignore that reality. Why is this? Do you believe that these communications should be fair game or that the NSA is following the law when spying on US citizens without a warrant using this pretext?
As for passing laws, how is that going to happen if no one objects to the current situation? Furthermore, why should we expect that the current heads of the NSA will follow new laws any better than the current ones if we don't prosecute them for their crimes? Should we give them "too big to fail" status and only go after the small fries like Snowden?
We need a government that is accountable to the people but we will not get it by remaining silent while these people rape our laws and customs. We won't get it by ignoring obvious crimes or claiming that no one should be prosecuted because they found a loophole.
Yes, we need to press for more laws, oversight and accountability but we can't do that in silence.
Cordelio Maldonado
(18 posts)You know, in allied countries where dozens of millions have had their metadata collected regardless of suspicion.
randome
(34,845 posts)The only way to change that is to change the law.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)all this stuff? That is the number the New York Times reported yesterday.
Please explain why you think this surveillance is worth the money taxpayers are spending on it.
We have to make choices. Why do you choose surveillance over, say forgiving some of the student loan debt or simply lowering taxes?
randome
(34,845 posts)Fine, scale down the amount of foreign intelligence snooping. I don't care. But I also don't see the need to focus like a laser on something that apparently, so far as we know, has no victims.
We have real victims in this country to see to first without trying to take care of hypothetical victims.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)last1standing
(11,709 posts)"You can't have your privacy violated if you don't know your privacy is violated, right?"
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131029/18020225059/mike-rogers-you-cant-have-your-privacy-violated-if-you-dont-know-about-it.shtml
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I was in central Europe when Poland and other countries were struggling to get rid of the very primitive amount of surveillance that harassed them.
We Americans like to feel we are free. We have the right to privacy in our papers and things. The NSA surveillance especially the metadata collection, sorting and analysis is a huge violation of our right to privacy. Either it will end or our Constitution will end. That's our choice. We cannot have a working democracy with the government collecting our metadata. According to the New York Times yesterday, they have 35,000 employees sorting through and translating and analyzing all the junk mail they collect. At approximately $100,000 for each employee (workplace, equipment, insurance, security, pay, pension, etc. costs) that's over 3 billion dollars. For what? To satisfy the obsessive-compulsive neuroses of a few at the top of the government?
Please. There is no excuse for this. $3 billion could pay for a lot of head start teachers, create a lot of useful jobs maybe even cure some disease, many other useful things. And that $3 billion minimum is per year. The cost is not justified.
Nor is the absurd invasion of our privacy and that of certain others overseas who don't deserve this kind of surveillance.
Placing criminals, including terrorists and drug-dealers? Fine. But the rest of us? Totally excessive and unneeded.
A few generals and other bureaucrats indulging their obsessive-compulsive neuroses at public expense. That's all it is.
randome
(34,845 posts)We have real things in the real world that demand our attention.
The NSA doing its job of monitoring foreign communications is not that big a deal to me. Scale 'em back. No problems here.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)last1standing
(11,709 posts)Thanks for clearing that up.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)They are not....but we are also not doing anything other countries are not also doing....
last1standing
(11,709 posts)n.
1. An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal.
2. One who is playfully mischievous; a scamp.
3. A wandering beggar; a vagrant.
4. A vicious and solitary animal, especially an elephant that has separated itself from its herd.
5. An organism, especially a plant, that shows an undesirable variation from a standard.
adj.
1. Vicious and solitary. Used of an animal, especially an elephant.
2. Large, destructive, and anomalous or unpredictable: a rogue wave; a rogue tornado.
3. Operating outside normal or desirable controls: "How could a single rogue trader bring down an otherwise profitable and well-regarded institution?" (Saul Hansell).
v. rogued, rogu·ing, rogues
v.tr.
1. To defraud.
2. To remove (diseased or abnormal specimens) from a group of plants of the same variety.
v.intr.
To remove diseased or abnormal plants.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rogue
Now that you have a definition we can look at context. In the context of "it is a rogue agency," the operative word is used as an adjective and would therefore fit within definitions #2 or #3 under "adj." To be clear, the NSA is a rogue agency of the United States. It is not an agency of the World Community. It is supposedly bound by the laws and customs of this nation, not those of France, Germany, Ecuador or Mali unless our laws state that we will not violate their laws - which they do. However, in the context before us, "rogue" means that they are acting as an out of control agency unlike the EPA or the Department of Agriculture.
As for your "everyone else does it" argument, I've yet to read any account stating that another country has tapped Obama's cell phone and even if you could prove your baseless assertion, it still would not make it right but merely show that other countries also need to reign in their spy networks.
Now, are you going to insinuate that I'm Un-American like you've done with other posters? I've very much enjoyed reading your Joe McCarthy impersonations.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)deviating from the norm....
A rogue elephant is one who lives alone and is violent and territorial. If you "go rogue" you leave the group and act on your own, usually in an unstable manner.
A Rogue wave or tornado...is one that is different from normal predictable pattern....it is singular...doesn't go along with the herd...
seperating from the herd....
That is what it means in THIS case...
Remember the headlines "Sarah Palin Goes Rogue" Was she a "rogue" tornado?
last1standing
(11,709 posts)As I said, the NSA is a rogue agency. It is out of control. If you like, it is singularly out of control (as I pointed out) but it is definitely out of control.
You have provided not one single shred of evidence that anything I've pointed out is untrue. You merely keep aping words about "everyone else does it" even though you can't point to one instance of another nation's spy network tapping President Obama's cell phone.
You ignored nearly my entire post in order to cherry pick your response which shows that you have your own agenda (note, in this context the word agenda is being used as a noun, not a verb; I noticed you have trouble with that). Obviously, your only interest is in trying to blur the lines between what is, and is not, acceptable in the hopes that people will become confused and give up on the subject.
Since you have again been proved wrong will you stoop to questioning my patriotism as you have with others?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)it is not anyone's "interpretation" of rogue....
last1standing
(11,709 posts)As I have repeatedly pointed out, and you have not refuted, there is not one single example of any of our allies (or other nations) tapping President Obama's cell phone. Therefore, not only have you not established your comment, your silence on the matter shows the level of your sincerity.
And since I have stated this in previous posts to you in this thread you obviously know that what you are writing is not true.
Why do you continue to post things that you know are not true?
I think my sig line provides the answer.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Spying...THAT'S WHAT "spying" angencys are supposed to be doing!!!
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)This is text-book case of how sound "anti-american" instead of anti-spying. That you cannot even contemplate that other governments are spying on each other too! In fact you completely dismiss the thought!
last1standing
(11,709 posts)You cannot show one instance of another country tapping President Obama's cell phone. You post links that say nothing of the sort and you try to pervert my statement to say something I never typed, but you still can't get away from the fact that you are unable to refute what I'm writing.
Why do you continue to post comments that mislead others and why are you trying to pervert my words? If you can't show where I'm wrong act like an adult and admit it. Don't try to weasel out of it by making claims you can't prove.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Russia used thumbdrives on diplomats at the G20?
What part of Spying agencies do you not understand? Spying on world leaders is what spying agencies are supposed to do!
I would be more surprised to discover no one tried to spy on PBO!
For crying out loud...JFK sent poisonous cigars to Fidel Castro!
last1standing
(11,709 posts)Nothing you have posted amounts to anything more than base propaganda. You've made several claims, none of which you've been able to back up, but have never refuted my statement, which I have backed up, that the NSA is a rogue agency that even the Obama administration is distancing itself from.
If you want to be on the wrong side of history by arguing in favor of unlimited spying on US citizens and allied heads of state, go for it. But don't expect others to follow you down that corrupt path.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I gave you 2 links to very recent stories...like in the past week! One of which is from SNOWDEN and The Guardian!
last1standing
(11,709 posts)You've also ventured into suggesting that I'm Anti-American which is a blatant McCarthy tactic.
To sum up:
You have made several claims you cannot back up and have tried to twist the meaning of words to suit your propaganda.
You have made the same "anti-American" claims used by Joe McCarthy and the John Birchers in order to demean and frighten others from voicing their views.
You have even posted comments in direct opposition to posts you made minutes before.
I'm not going to waste any more of my time responding to someone who has so little affection for honest debate. If you have nothing but misleading posts and disparaging comments about my loyalties, I have little left to say to you.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Sweden spying on the UK
"Swedish, German, French and Spanish intelligence services have conducted a close cooperation with GCHQ over the past five years, developing methods for the mass surveillance of data and telecom networks, The Guardian wrote on Friday." http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/01/gchq-europe-spy-agencies-mass-surveillance-snowden
brush
(53,765 posts)Maybe because those other countries don't have a Snowden, but you better believe they are spying too. And have been spying on us and every other country for forever that they consider important enough for not just military/strategic reasons but for business and economic advantage also.
I've posted this before that we all need to remember Jonathan Pollard who was busted in the 80s for spying on us for Israel, one of our staunchest allies.
So yeah, other countries do it. Hell, they'd be remiss in their responsibilities towards their own national security if they weren't.
Let's not be naive here.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)at best.
Yes, all nations spy.
If the world were nothing more than a yes/no equation you would have a point, but it's not. All nations spy, but not all nations' spy outfits have been proved to be spying on their own citizens in violation of their laws and customs. Not all nations' outfits have been proved to have tapped into the cell phones of their staunchest allies' heads of state. Not all nations' spy outfits have been proved to have lied directly to the very people charged with their oversight.
And by the way, even if some others are proved to have done so, it still does not make the NSA's abuses legal or ethical.
mimi85
(1,805 posts)Spying has been going on since the beginning of time (human time anyway). Now the technology makes it a bigger deal. I am sick and tired of people thinking we're the only ones engaged in this ancient pastime.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)just try to kill each other creatively like the old Spy Vs Spy cartoons?
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)We're bound by international law against wars of aggression. We start them. We've got the largest WMD stockpiles in the world, and have used them in war either ourselves or through people we've sold them to. We have a habit of overthrowing democratically elected governments. We very nearly launched an attack on Syria without international support.
How the hell are we not a rogue nation?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Our spying serves to aid our national interests, which more often than not involves forcing our "provinces" overseas to do what we want them to do.
Yes, they spy, but Germany, Mexico, Italy, and Brazil haven't attempted a coup in our country or stationed military bases on our lands.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)
G_j
(40,366 posts)
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)Putting personal interests above the interests of the country has become a part of American culture thanks to Corporate America and the Republican Party.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)And, yes, if he had led with American spying on other countries he would still get my applause.
OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)Blaming the messenger is for sad, little people.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Besides Russia and China… there's also every other "first world" country.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)No other country would waste the money and manpower on this obsessive-compulsive endeavor.
35,000 employees according to the New York Times yesterday. And they are collecting and sorting and analyzing your credit card bills. It's ridiculous.
I figure it probably costs at least 3 billion dollars per year to keep this obsessive-compulsive stuff going. Think what we could do with that money. What a waste.
Some surveillance is useful and necessary. But the NSA program is way out of bounds.
And they should not be spying on communications between lawyers and clients or between companies and their employees, especially not if it is intercontinental or between countries.
Think of the opportunities for patent thefts, research theft. This is absolutely horrible.
The only reason people approve of it is that they don't understand what it means. It does not amaze me at all that the leaders, especially the business leaders in other countries like the innovative Germans are just furious.
This program may be hiding untold crimes. We don't know, but if I were Angela Merkel, I would be furious.
Other countries do not have the means or money to conduct a surveillance program as vast and invasive as the NSA program. They have quite a few different collection databases, surveillance programs, etc. according to the New York Times article yesterday.
If you have never worked with information, then you may naively think this is much ado about nothing, but it is absolutely horrific.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)"The files also make clear that GCHQ played a leading role in advising its European counterparts how to work around national laws intended to restrict the surveillance power of intelligence agencies.
The German, French and Spanish governments have reacted angrily to reports based on National Security Agency (NSA) files leaked by Snowden since June, revealing the interception of communications by tens of millions of their citizens each month. US intelligence officials have insisted the mass monitoring was carried out by the security agencies in the countries involved and shared with the US.
. . . .
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/01/gchq-europe-spy-agencies-mass-surveillance-snowden
The German laws prohibit this sort of thing. It is of course appropriate in the case of criminals. But I seriously doubt that Germany is wiretapping Obama's phones or the c?ommunications at the UN.
Every country has intelligence capacity. But no country is as hogwildly ignoring the human right to privacy to the extent that we are.
And that article talks about the potential of other countries and states that the British are advising other countries on how to circumvent the legal restrictions other countries have placed on the surveillance.
That means to me that other countries are not spying anywhere near the extent that the British and Americans are.
I know people who are employees involved in these sorts of activities and apologists for the NSA would like us to think that "everybody is doing it," but the fact is no other country would be so stupid as to employ 35,000 people in this sort of useless random surveillance. That is especially true of Angela Merkel who grew up as the daughter of a pastor in East Germany. What a fable.
"Having initially trained as a physical chemist, Merkel entered politics in the wake of the Revolutions of 1989, briefly serving as the deputy spokesperson for the East German Government. Following reunification in 1990, she was elected to the Bundestag for Stralsund-Nordvorpommern-Rügen in the state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, a seat she has held since. She was later appointed as the Federal Minister for Women and Youth in 1991 under Chancellor Helmut Kohl, being promoted to become Federal Minister for the Environment, Nature Conservation and Nuclear Safety in 1994. After the CDU/CSU coalition was defeated in 1998, she was elected Secretary-General of the CDU, before being elected the party's first ever female Leader in 2000.
. . . .
Merkel was born Angela Dorothea Kasner in Hamburg, West Germany, the daughter of Horst Kasner (1926–2011),[12][13] native of Berlin, and his wife Herlind, born in 1928 in Danzig (now Gdańsk, Poland) as Herlind Jentzsch, a teacher of English and Latin. Her mother was once a member of the Social Democratic Party of Germany.[14] Merkel has some Polish ancestry as her paternal grandfather, Ludwig Kazmierczak, was a German[15] of Polish origin.[16]
Merkel's father studied theology in Heidelberg and, afterwards, in Hamburg. In 1954 her father received a pastorate at the church in Quitzow (near Perleberg in Brandenburg), which then was in East Germany, and the family moved to Templin. Thus Merkel grew up in the countryside 80 km (50 mi) north of East Berlin. Gerd Langguth, a former senior member of Merkel's Christian Democratic Union, states in his book[17] that the family's ability to travel freely from East to West Germany during the following years, as well as their possession of two automobiles, leads to the conclusion that Merkel's father had a "sympathetic" relationship with the communist regime, since such freedom and perquisites for a Christian pastor and his family would have been otherwise impossible in East Germany.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel
Cordelio Maldonado
(18 posts)?
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)but I've always found it funny that Snowden and his supporters have been complaining about the U.S. spying on other countries, yet they apparently don't have much to say when other countries partake in spying. They seem to act like the U.S. is the only country that spies on people, and that all of this just started under Obama.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)As a U.S. citizen my complaints would have zero influence over a foreign government's spying policies.
And if a Chinese dissident were to do what Snowden did, I'd champion that person and call for her or his protection from the U.S. and the international community.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)when Germany, England, Canada etc all also spy.
Germany took over the NSA operations there and EXPANDED IT.
treestar
(82,383 posts)is
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)A waste of time because, AS A U.S. CITIZEN, I've zero influence on the activities or their government.
I would, though, support any whistleblower from any "et cetera" country. And would petition my own country to do so.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)I strongly suspect that the NSA's activities are vastly more extensive than those of its European counterpart, however.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)If so I have a bridge to sell you.
The Merkle incident will not change one iota of how the US deals with Germany spying-wise.
If anything it will improve it because they will sign a treaty saying they won't spy on each other's top officials.
Note: they'll still do it and the highest most secure channels will only be made aware.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)docs have ignited both a national and intentional dialog. The ONLY influence I can hope to have as a U.S. citizen is on the national level.
I'll leave it up to activists in other countries to take on their own governments.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)For instance I helped shut down the Pinion Canyon military drill site expansion in Colorado, as did a lot of other Democrats (and I think even some Libertarians were in on that one).
All politics is local, after all.
But we aren't going to do shit, collectively, or otherwise, to stop the security state.
How do I know?
The United Kingdom is absolute proof. There are even DUers here who get offended when you point out their incredible police state and try to deflect from it.
Us, in the developed world, in the western world, we'd be happy to give up a bit of privacy for a little (or no) security. OK so some robber got caught after hitting a store in the UK. Is that worth a camera for every 32 people in the UK (same link)? Is it? Fuck no it's not.
You're not going to change it, we're not going to change it, no one is going to change it, it's going to get worse. The more fat and happy we are the more we don't give a shit.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)That you think we are ignoring and should be getting upset about? Or are you just trying to create some sort of straw man to argue against?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)No other country, especially not Germany, would just give free reign to its paranoid and obsessive-compulsive generals.
Germany learned that lesson the hard way in WWII.
All countries spy and try to collect information, intelligence about other countries and those they don't like in their own country including criminals, potential terrorists, etc.
But the programs the NSA has assembled as described in the New York Times yesterday are way over the top. No other country has enough money to waste on putting together such an invasive, overly thorough system. 35,000 employees reported to be working on these programs. We could solve a lot of problems in our country with the money it is costing us.
Laughing Mirror
(4,185 posts)Name the countries that have been listening in on all the calls on the personal cell phones of Dilma Rousseff and Angela Merkel, in Merkel's case since 2002, before she was chancellor.
Those are just two examples that came to light recently of why the world outside the world you apparently live in is outraged at this behavior and why the world condemns it. People don't find it funny.
Hekate
(90,645 posts)It's like Obama started it from scratch, and no other country does it.
Tell me about how we can protect what's left of our privacy at home, regulate and reform our intelligence-gathering agencies, roll back what Bush/Cheney did ... and don't go out of your way to destroy our standing in the world. And use the actual whistleblower mechanisms instead of using outright espionage.
Then I'll have some respect.
But this business of dumping everything in the hands of our enemies and having Greenwald publish a slow-motion train wreck with it strikes me as extremely destructive. I don't feel like the two heroes have accomplished what they initially said they wanted to do in the actual US.
Once again, I will point out that the two people Greenwald "befriended" have ended up in deep Shinola. One is in prison and the other has temporary asylum in Russia. How many others has he done this to on a lesser scale?
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Really?
And as I'm being reliably informed over and over and over on this thread, none of this is "important" or even a mystery - why EVERYONE does it!!
You are all going to have to do better than this to persuade the fence-sitters that this is traitorous.
Number23
(24,544 posts)spy even more! So some countries will use their own spying apparatus and then join that up with what they've learned from the NSA to connect any dots they may be missing. Has been going on for DECADES but apparently, a large, loud swath of DU just learned about it a few months ago.
If I had a dollar for every bewildered spy chief, politician, public servant etc. that has absolutely no idea what this issue is about and who are bemused at the indignant flutterings of world leaders "caught by surprise" that the NSA spies on other countries, I'd be swimming in dough.
This entire exercise appears to have appealed to low information voters who had absolutely no clue of what the Patriot Act was or have never seen a James Bond movie.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Therein lies the difference. Countries do spy on each other, but we spy on others because we think we own them. Our interests are so widespread that every country's activities somehow affect our "national interest."
We're the empire keeping tabs on our provinces.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)the gratitude of people all over the world. All free people everywhere owe them a debt of gratitude
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)boomersense
(147 posts)awards. His actions may well have sparked a sea change in the way America is viewed both abroad and within its own borders. Looking over one's shoulder while seated in front of the puter is now routine. I just hope someone can come up with some better encryption software so that some of the more private health sites can reopen. Some of those places really helped people.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)is chilling to Orwellian levels - all people who believe in freedom and liberal democracy find this extremely disturbing. Only the enemies of liberal democracy are not disturbed by this That is why those of us in the traditional of liberal democracy owe Mr. Snowden a great debt of gratitude for bringing this to light -
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Spying is what these people do..
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)a massive and highly intrusive surveillance state that is incompatible with sustaining in the long run anything resembling the norms of a liberal western democracy
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)The NSA is the large governmental security network in the world and as a U.S. citizen I do have a right to a say in the policies of my government. To not draw attention to my countries intelligence gathering gone array would be unpatriotic and immoral.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)If other countries are involved - then all the greater the threat to the future of freedom.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)it seems pretty typical....
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)that is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
boomersense
(147 posts)ddddddd
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)boomersense
(147 posts)US is. There has been spying since the dawn of time. But this Stasi stuff is pure Americana right now. The Swiss will get to the bottom of it. I just hope they don't trick Snowden with a phony lure.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)how much gets a pass from you?
Or is it JUST the U.S. in general that bugs you?
boomersense
(147 posts)just as I do.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Spy agencies in Germany, France, Spain and Sweden are carrying out mass surveillance of online and phone traffic in collaboration with Britain, according to documents leaked by Edward Snowden, the Guardian newspaper reported Saturday.
Britain’s GCHQ electronic eavesdropping centre — which has a close relationship with the United States’ National Security Agency (NSA) — has taken a leading role in helping the other countries work around laws intended to limit spying, the British newspaper said.
The report is likely to prove embarrassing for governments including those of Germany and Spain, which had denounced earlier reports that the NSA was electronically spying on their citizens.
Saturday’s report said the intelligence services of the European countries, in a “loose but growing” alliance, carried out surveillance through directly tapping fibre-optic cables and through secret relationships with communications companies.
The newspaper has previously reported that GCHQ taps transatlantic fibre-optic cables.
boomersense
(147 posts)Snowden or his people myself. This could be NSA itself tilting the playing field.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)boomersense
(147 posts)the French Press. Whoa, that's near gospel. This is nothing more than an orchestrated push-back.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)black and white...words on paper...remember that?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)boomersense
(147 posts)ddd
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Would you prefer if one of our enemies said so? Even Canada does
America is NOT rogue on this....
boomersense
(147 posts)was my original contention. When Merkel puts a mosquito camera in Michelle's bathroom, I may retreat, but you'll have to present in another form than from "...a French news source..."
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I don't think you do
Russia gave everyone at the GQ thumbdrives with spyware in their swag bags!
boomersense
(147 posts)turning in the opposite direction of the other rogue.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)and so does Canada...
Are they all rogue?
boomersense
(147 posts)what varying degrees of rogue means. If I listen to my neighbor Sally's private phone call because she is on my party line, I am somewhat rogue. If, however, I tap Sally's phone line at work and listen to her conversation between her and her customers, I am infinitely more rogue. Spain, et al is the first case. America, Russia the latter.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)being a lone wolf...
boomersense
(147 posts)rogue (rg)
n.
1. An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal.
2. One who is playfully mischievous; a scamp.
3. A wandering beggar; a vagrant.
4. A vicious and solitary animal, especially an elephant that has separated itself from its herd.
5. An organism, especially a plant, that shows an undesirable variation from a standard.
adj.
1. Vicious and solitary. Used of an animal, especially an elephant.
2. Large, destructive, and anomalous or unpredictable: a rogue wave; a rogue tornado.
3. Operating outside normal or desirable controls: "How could a single rogue trader bring down an otherwise profitable and well-regarded institution?" (Saul Hansell).
v. rogued, rogu·ing, rogues
v.tr.
1. To defraud.
2. To remove (diseased or abnormal specimens) from a group of plants of the same variety.
v.intr.
To remove diseased or abnormal plants.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)remember the Sarah Palin book "Going Rogue"?
It means breaking away from the herd....NOT doing what everyone else is doing..
in this case they ARE doing what everyone else is doing...thus not Rogue.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)4. A vicious and solitary animal, especially an elephant that has separated itself from its herd.
5. An organism, especially a plant, that shows an undesirable variation from a standard.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Apparently, America isn’t the only country to spy on neighbors and world leaders. Russia gave out goodie bags filled with USB drives and telephone chargers at the recent G-20 summit in St. Petersburg — but the devices were designed to download the users’ information and pass it along to intelligence agents at the Kremlin.
Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/30/russia-bugged-goodie-bags-spy-technology-g-20/#ixzz2jdJxo8ut
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)The German government, however, has expressed disbelief and fury at the revelations from the Snowden documents, including the fact that the NSA monitored Angela Merkel's mobile phone calls.
After the Guardian revealed the existence of GCHQ's Tempora programme, in which the electronic intelligence agency tapped directly into the transatlantic fibre optic cables to carry out bulk surveillance, the German justice minister, Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger, said it sounded "like a Hollywood nightmare", and warned the UK government that free and democratic societies could not flourish when states shielded their actions in "a veil of secrecy".
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)why is it just the U.S. doing it that bugs you?
boomersense
(147 posts)families, the spying and intrusion they are experiencing as common people is nowhere near what we in the US are experiencing. Is this clearer? As far as exactly what bothers me, you'll have to check with any people you may know at NSA. When I hear of Obama's cell phone being tapped by Merkel operatives, I may reassess my position. But I would bet that is not happening. There seems to be a bridge too far in foreign security ops.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I don't understand how you come to your conclusions....
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/01/gchq-europe-spy-agencies-mass-surveillance-snowden
boomersense
(147 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 3, 2013, 10:32 PM - Edit history (1)
ddddddd
Cordelio Maldonado
(18 posts)You claim that the amount of spying by others countries is acceptable, without having any idea how much spying they do. Let's see. Once you give us the information, tell us what is your thresshold.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)DontTreadOnMe
(2,442 posts)They must be rogue corporations... 
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)people from all over the world and at home. Name one.
The criticism is not of the whole program but of the facts that a) it is not under enough independent civilian supervision in that judging from its orders, the FISA court is a rubber stamp, a joke and b) it is overly inclusive, much too large and invades the privacy of millions around the world who are innocent, law-abiding citizens, c) it has been and remains due to its inherent nature overly secretive.
Who knows what they are really doing? And how can you approve of it when you do not know what it will mean for you and for our country? And you can't because even with all of Snowden's revelations, we cannot imagine the half of what they can find out based on this information.
Let's say you have an important criminal charge, an unwarranted, false charge against you filed by a federal attorney with a grudge against you. You hire a lawyer. Do you realize that the Justice Department can listen in on or read all your correspondence and communications with that lawyer thanks to this program? In my view that would be a serious ethical violation if not illegal, but who is to know, who is to stop the government?
This is a very serious matter. It's rogue because it is excessive, and the only countries that could possibly match this program are Russia and China, but I doubt that they have quite enough computer expertise. Of course, all they have to do is to break into our systems and they can steal that expertise. Probably already have. But they would still have to have the computers, the storage and the 35,000 computer nerds, translators, bureaucrats, etc. to do the day-to-day work (and it is no doubt very boring).
These programs are like the pot stirred by the sorcerer's apprentice. They are going to spill over and cover everything. This will bring the ultimate loss of individuality and privacy in our society.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)spying networks...
You do realize not everyone at the NSA is spying on your personal cellphone right?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Spy agencies in Germany, France, Spain and Sweden are carrying out mass surveillance of online and phone traffic in collaboration with Britain, according to documents leaked by Edward Snowden, the Guardian newspaper reported Saturday.
Britain’s GCHQ electronic eavesdropping centre — which has a close relationship with the United States’ National Security Agency (NSA) — has taken a leading role in helping the other countries work around laws intended to limit spying, the British newspaper said.
The report is likely to prove embarrassing for governments including those of Germany and Spain, which had denounced earlier reports that the NSA was electronically spying on their citizens.
Saturday’s report said the intelligence services of the European countries, in a “loose but growing” alliance, carried out surveillance through directly tapping fibre-optic cables and through secret relationships with communications companies.
The newspaper has previously reported that GCHQ taps transatlantic fibre-optic cables.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Well if you do, nothing picked up by the NSA is going to come in as evidence in that case.
The ordinary mechanism for remedies of Fourth Amendment violations is to bar the use of evidence obtained in violation of the Fourth Amendment in a criminal prosecution. I asked previously for references to criminal prosecutions in which any of this stuff was used as evidence to convict anyone of anything, and never got an answer.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)see -- america isn't the be all or end all in every ones mind.
it's just becoming a burden -- for every one.
maybe you should take a clue from our allies.
i swear -- there's MAYBE a hairs breadth of difference between democratic centrists and george w. bush.
maybe.
ForgoTheConsequence
(4,868 posts)The more I see people starting threads that seem to parrot Bill Bennet talking points.
Anti-Americanism? OH NO! Hide under your school desk kids!
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)ForgoTheConsequence
(4,868 posts)NO WAY!
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)ForgoTheConsequence
(4,868 posts)I wonder if Kitty has any more Hannity-esque insults to throw around
bemildred
(90,061 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)Left wing ideologues. LWI not a cute acronym.
But we could frolic there.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)
But anyway, "left wing" is the important part, the trailing insult tends to become a cliche and changes. The real problem is they are all cliches by now.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Crazy.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)xiamiam
(4,906 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)So far as we know.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)and storing it in a search-able database, essentially creating a dossier on everyone. Every detail about your life that can be accessed online, will be available to the NSA, including your online searches and purchases and even your medical history. It's likely that all of your e-mails and text messages are being stored as well. As this system grows and matures with advancing computer technology, it will become a powerful tool indeed for controlling the population and limiting dissent. This does not bode well for our future ability to reform our government.
No thinking person should accept this.
on point
(2,506 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,307 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)but Snowden defenders are immune to reality and ignore that.
Certainly a huge overlap between Snowden defenders and Chomsky fans, I'm sure.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,307 posts)The thread starter thought, mistakenly, that Snowden had only recently started talking about the USA spying on other countries. So I showed a couple of examples from June. The OP wasn't about whether other countries spy too. Someone trying to defend Snowden would, actually, be more likely to point out examples of him saying other countries spy, since that would help defend him against the charge of building up anti-Americanism.
Does this mean you're saying you like Chomsky?
Zorra
(27,670 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)
mike_c
(36,281 posts)If you can come up with a cogent argument that Snowden's revelations are incorrect, then maybe I'll reconsider membership in his "American fan club." But all this searching for an angle for discrediting the messenger and blaming the victims is unseemly.
diabeticman
(3,121 posts)?
former9thward
(31,981 posts)I hope the flames get fanned to a huge fire that burns those who deserve it.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Seems like a rehash of all the other sensible woodchucks' Snowden bashing. Nothing new here at all.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Snowden isn't in charge of the leaks anymore, Greenwald and Poitras and the newspapers are now.
Those reporters and news agencies have no asylum issues so your conspiracy theory is moot.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Or that Snowden is conducting the campaign against "us" now.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,233 posts)
grasswire
(50,130 posts)I would be embarrassed at this point to be anti-Snowden.
The majority feel otherwise about him.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Cause you know what, I heard the Yankee go Home and Dysney is part of the American Empire way before Echelon even came online.
There are reasons people dislike the bully, we are. And like good bullies we now claim victim hood
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)of domestic spying because they open a discussion that needs to happen, I think his latest revelations are fairly trite and going from rebellious to treasonous real quick.
Proof the NSA spies on Americans= good because it is our business that affects us.
Revealing the NSA spies on other countries = potentially devastating consequences beyond our control that hurts all of us as Americans.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
99Forever
(14,524 posts)He's a better American than anyone who is trying to put him down for doing THE RIGHT THING, by a long shot.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)alarimer
(16,245 posts)We should be unwelcome anywhere and all our diplomats kicked out.
And fuck the authoritarian bullshit.
I DESPISE what this country has done.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)So the question becomes, do you understand why everyone who has the means to do it, does "it"? i.e. spies on everyone, allies and adversaries alike? Do you understand that all governments also know that this goes on and feign surprise and indignation when someone is caught spying on them? Do you understand that England, France, Germany, Sweden and everyone else who can, spies on us and each other?
Do you understand that much of the info the NSA collected overseas was handed over by the intelligence agencies of those countries at the behest of their governments?
Rex
(65,616 posts)It has always been about America spying.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)His moves recently are self serving. I am in the wilderness camp that thinks the man is kinda screwy while also having realized the NSA is out of control.
MADem
(135,425 posts)He'll get to Germany when pigs fly. He's STUCK in Russia, and that's the way Pootie likes it. Pootie is using that poor fool, and probably his thugs RECRUITED him--even as Pootie pretends he doesn't know much about the boy. See: http://www.smh.com.au/world/vladimir-putin-calls-edward-snowden-a-strange-guy-20130904-2t5qd.html
His visa can be renewed--he's not at the mercy of a ticking clock. After a year in country, he simply has to reapply. And he has to keep doing this for five years, or so--then he can get Russian citizenship, lucky Ed!
Of course, we have a couple of Russians that Pootie DEARLY wants back. If we were willing to trade them, Ed would have reason to sweat. Bottom line, though--Ed is a prisoner in a gilded (and soon to be very cold and snowy) cage.
Now, since he's running out of dough (I guess Assange isn't sending him any more money?) he has to work for a living. One theory out there is that Assange "sold" Snowden to Pootie...it's an interesting one, for sure. Funny how Assange hasn't released much Russian data with his wiki revelations, even after he promised to so do. Did he make a deal with Vladimir? Inquiring minds want to know....
In Europe, here's the unspoken truth. Those countries affect faux outrage and say "WE don't spy!!!!!"
What they don't say is "We pay the US--in base rights, in overflight rights, and in other considerations--to do OUR spying FOR us!!!" That way, they can play the "clean hands" game, but the intel apparatus knows better.
What was Snowden doing when he was working for CIA in Europe? You seriously think, with a straight face, that our allies were in the dark as to CIA's activities in their countries? Of course not.
But plausible deniability has its place. USA can afford to play the Big Bad Guy. It's a role we take on regularly. Funny how all these governments that get elected by railing about how awful we are continue to snuggle up to us after they've gotten their ministers installed.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It is not as if they would not accept the CIAs help if they had issues in their countries.
Moving the goalposts to how evil it is to spy on Americans (which didn't happen) to spying on foreign powers is interesting. People really think we have no ability/right to spy on foreigners? And that they don't spy on us? Being against that too is like wanting to sign a death warrant for the United States.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)playing stupid when it comes to spying by other countries (besides Russia/China).
Just one link I could find… I deleted a lot a while back as I've grown sick of the topic:
http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/20/19585366-report-germany-used-key-nsa-surveillance-program
MADem
(135,425 posts)Funny how he had a trove of Kremlin docs to release via Wikileaks....and then he got himself a tv show on Putin's RT and the docs went away.
Next thing you know, he's delivering Snowden (via Ecuadorian travel letter, later disavowed by Ecuador) straight to Russia.
Very odd, all that.
boomersense
(147 posts)heavily he actually may be far far luckier than the average person living in the United States. If you can't see what's coming, you're not paying attention.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Please--don't spare the horses, now....give me the scoop, since you Know It All!
boomersense
(147 posts)the law that required big banks to move some derivatives trading into separate units that aren’t backed by the government’s insurance fund. This is clearing the way for TPP. I don't know it all. Just most of it Like I said: five years.
MADem
(135,425 posts)But do go on--what happens in five years? Cats lying down with dogs?
Don't play the "dire" game with a few cryptic, oblique sentences.
You'd probably do better to try to advance your thesis in a separate OP.
boomersense
(147 posts)dddd
MADem
(135,425 posts)Where is that bill now?
It's not on the President's desk, is it?
It's not even on the Senate floor.
It's in committee....a long way from a done deal.
Number23
(24,544 posts)what to do with him.
Poll after poll has his support in the low 50's at the highest. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/30/edward-snowden-poll_n_4175089.html
A poll of Russians had his support at 51% and that was AFTER he made his 'Russia is a paragon of human rights' kissy kissy at them shortly before being admitted to the country.
So this whole "the world loves him" is just not true. There are some that do, and there are just as many that don't.
MADem
(135,425 posts)hero, Rand Paul, and done his "whistleblowing" through the Senate Intel Committee, not put his life in the hands of Assange, Greenwald, et. al.
joshcryer
(62,269 posts)Wikileaks has been trying to get this data for a long time now.
Here's what you do: you find a patsy, you groom them, and then you fucking destroy said patsy by making sure that they get the right information that causes the least amount of damage. How much damage have the Snowden files caused? Hardly any.
Why haven't there been a dozen other releases like Snowden had? If security really was that bad, why the hell aren't dozens of workers leaking crap? We're talking almost 30k employees at Booz Allen.
One of my earlier predictions (after 9/11) was that the security culture would get so big that it wouldn't be able to be contained. Yet that's it? I might've been wrong.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It could be that he was used by both NSA and the denizen of the Ecuadorian Embassy in Knightsbridge.
I think it's funny that Wikileaks was going to publish a bunch of embarrassing Russian stuff, and lickity split, Assange gets a TV show on Putin's RT and that threat went away. And how odd that Assange's "advisor" conveniently had a Russian visa at the ready.
Then Assange, using fake Ecuadorian letters of transit, gets Snowden escorted by his "advisor" from the Russian consulate out of Hong Kong to Moscow, right where Pootie wants him. And there, he's STUCK.
And quick like a bunny, one of Poot's old KGB pals becomes his "lawyer."
I'm not the only one wondering about this. I smell a huge rat, I just don't know where it's hiding:
http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/Did-WikiLeaks-Sell-Out-Snowden-To-The-Russians-4783929.php
..... in October 2010 WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange said: "We have {compromising materials} about Russia, about your government and businessmen. ... We will publish these materials soon."
Subsequently, an FSB official issued a threat via independent Russian news website LifeNews: "It's essential to remember that given the will and the relevant orders, WikiLeaks can be made inaccessible forever."
Those files were never published.
In December 2010, Israel Shamir, a friend of Assange, provided Russian ally Belarus with a cache of WikiLeaks files about opposition members in the country. .......
In April 2012, the government-funded Russian TV station RT gave Assange his own talk show........On June 19 Assange said WikiLeaks was providing legal counsel to Snowden helping him get asylum in Iceland. Around that time Assange's closest advisor, Sarah Harrison, met Snowden in Hong Kong.
Kommersant, a daily business paper in Russia, reported that Snowden spent several days in the Russian consulate in Hong Kong, starting either June 20 or 21, after meeting Harrison.
Will Englund of The Washington Post noted that the Kommersant article "implies that Snowden’s decision to seek Russian help came after he was joined in Hong Kong by Sarah Harrison."
Ya gotta wonder if there isn't one of Poppy's Quid Pro Quos happening here, but engineered by Pootie and Assange. If that is the case, I have to tip the hat to Pootie--it's a pretty masterful con. It's an anti-technology hack, in a way, in that it relied on a HUMINT asset to turn and run with all the "goods"--and get him to be spooked and run without any preparation, with no damn plan, it would seem.
So yeah, I can see Snowden as a patsy, but maybe a patsy of someone he thought he could trust--like Assange.
Even the guy who went to see him and give him that meaningless "award" said he wasn't "free."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/01/world/europe/snowden-russia.html?_r=0
Andrei Soldatov, a journalist who has written extensively about the security services, said that the F.S.B., the domestic successor to the Soviet-era intelligence service, clearly controlled the circumstances of Mr. Snowden’s life now, protecting him and also circumscribing his activities, even if not directly controlling him.
“He’s actually surrounded by these people,” said Mr. Soldatov, who, with Irina Borogan, wrote a history of the new Russian security services, “The New Nobility.”........The security services now protecting Mr. Snowden, he said, might not even try to question him soon on what he knows — perhaps the greatest worry of American officials — but rather simply let him live in such circumstances and become increasingly dependent on them.
“He’s free, but he’s not completely free,” said Ray McGovern, a former C.I.A. official and a member of the Sam Adams Associates for Integrity in Intelligence, which met with Mr. Snowden three weeks ago in his only verified public appearance since he received asylum on July 31. Even those who attended were not exactly sure where the meeting took place, having been driven in a van with darkened windows.
He's a bird in a gilded cage, if you ask me...and it's his own damn fault. He shot HIMSELF in the balls (what he said should happen to leakers).
treestar
(82,383 posts)Learn Russian, Eddie!
Anti-Americanism is all he has left.
Autumn
(45,056 posts)Sincerely, a member of his American fan club.
boomersense
(147 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)So much information has come out since Snowden's initial leaks, that attacking him at this point makes you look like an NSA public relations officer.
Historic NY
(37,449 posts)at this point he isn't ever coming back to the US.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)Don't care for Snowden, but he is not "fanning the flames."
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)The Swedish spy on their friends and potential adversaries
The Germans spy on their friends and potential adversaries
The French spy on their friends and potential adversaries
The Brits "" "" "" "" "" "" ""...
.
.
.
etc.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)What the government does in our name is what I am concerned about.
And bugging the phone of a head of state is technically a act of war. We did that to our allies, bugged their personal cell phones.
So "everybody does it" is simply wrong.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)EU Social Democracies think it's necessary.
That destroys the entire premise from where you approach this issue.
KG
(28,751 posts)hilarious.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)Hit & Run.
Notice?
People, people, people, some of you have been around too long to fall for this kind of thing. Let's pay attention, shall we? 
Now, back to your regular programming . . . (pun intended)
Recursion
(56,582 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Putin loves this as much as he loves money and his nubile 20-something gymnast mistress.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Putin (and for that matter Merkel) are more than happy to see the US embarrassed; the problem is Snowden has already implicated the French, Aussie, and Israeli intelligence services, and nobody really wants that whole box opened (well, 99% of the world does, but nobody in political power does).
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)"how did it morph into being about America spying on foreign countries"? Probably because most of those countries are US allies whose citizens are no happier about being subjected to surveillance by the USA than Americans would be if they were being surveilled by MI6 or DGSE, that's why. The dismissive attitude of "oh well if they were only spying on foreigners that's okay, it's not like they're real people, or have rights, or anything"...as though it's only problematic if the NSA is spying on Americans...is really kind of sad (note to USA: this kind of thinking is why people in other countries don't like you).
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Whether they are going to renew his asylum for another year or whether the purpose of giving him asylum was to allow him time to find another place where he could go permanently.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)so that they can deflect calls from the US to improve their own anti-Democratic and human rights records.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)It seems like things politically are getting worse in Russia with Putin thinking he can be president for life.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,349 posts)concept of a right to privacy whether it be friend, ally or foe.
Snowden and Greenwald warned that arsonists were burning the house or forest down.
Thanks for the thread, gulliver.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)are being fanned by drone strikes, endless wars and illegal occupations.
This country is a laughing stock. We can't even keep our people healthy. Nothing Snowden says can make non Americans think any less of us. Unless you believe the line that the whole world looks up to us and that we are "exceptional".