General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsYes, I want abortion to be "rare" (and why it doesn't matter what I want).
Why?
Because as safe as abortions are, most forms of contraceptives are even safer.
Because as inexpensive as abortions are, most forms of contraceptives are even less expensive.
Because as non-time consuming as abortions are, most forms of contraceptives are even less time consuming.
That said, I also support abortion on demand for any woman who wants one without judgment or recrimination. Abortion is a matter for her and her doctor to discuss, and for her to decide, based on the facts (not anti-choice myths) of that woman's particular situation.
So does my desire, as a man, that abortions be a rare event have any practical purpose in this conversation other than expressing a sincere concern for the welfare of the woman? No.
I want women to use the safest, cost-effective, and convenient forms of birth control possible, but I want poor people to manage their money better and I want the ill to take better care of themselves. I want a whole slew of things, in the name of helping people, but I don't try to get laws passed that force them to take the actions I desire, nor do I generally believe it's my place to tell them how to handle their personal affairs.
As someone not directly affected by a woman's decision whether to have an abortion, I can sit here and pontificate on how better access to contraceptives is the way to go - and I'm likely right. But when I do, I should expect to read several posts telling me to mind my own body and stay the fuck out of theirs.
So for every man out there defending the "rare" in "safe, legal, and rare," understand that you're entitled to your beliefs, and you may not even be wrong. But it's not our place to lecture women on what they should and shouldn't do, just as it isn't their place to tell us whether to get a vasectomy or take Viagra.
When you have the issue, you get to make the decision. Anyone else telling you what you should do isn't really pro-choice.
gopiscrap
(23,757 posts)I don't want abortion to be rare! I want to be very common. We have way too many people on this planet as it. If some one wants an abortion they should be given it free of charge and receive a tax credit for doing so! That said, I also understand folks who go to term and give birth.
Nine
(1,741 posts)Your position sounds like what a clueless right-winger thinks liberals believe.
gopiscrap
(23,757 posts)but I also believe in encouraging aggressive family planning.
Nine
(1,741 posts)Nope. Not buying it.
gopiscrap
(23,757 posts)my only thing is that there are way too many children as is...so I would encourage serious family planning.
Nine
(1,741 posts)Now you are talking about aggressive family planning. Either you see abortion as a family planning method or you are talking about family planning to distract from your earlier statement. If you really are talking about abortion as a family planning method, I am more convinced then ever that you are acting out some fictional persona.
gopiscrap
(23,757 posts)I want anyone anywhere to be able to walk up and get a free abortion and also free health care for that matter. We should have a single payer but that's another topic...also I think that most business should be nationalized. I am actually a socialist way more than a Democrat. But then that's another discussion topic. BTW agressive family planning includes liberal use of abortions, along with contraceptives.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)really.
Daemonaquila
(1,712 posts)Sorry you can't handle our message, but there are a lot of us - who actually have wombs and for whom this is NOT a theoretical argument - who believe exactly that. On the other hand, your statements that you want women to have more access to other forms of "safer" birth control, yadda, yadda, is another form of the paternalistic nonsense we're hearing from the right-wingers who want to rape us with transvaginal ultrasounds, close down clinics because doctors don't have admitting privilages, and require us to watch propaganda about the birth process and abortion, all for our own good, dontcha know.
Here's a really simple message: everybody, of all genders, butt out. Our safety isn't your concern. It's our choice whether we drink or smoke. It's our choice whether we jump out of a plane or ski. It's our choice whether we take 4 ibuprofen regularly, or take the pain and settle for an occasional aspirin. It's our choice whether we wear button up sweaters or bare our cleavage to the navel. Most guys have gotten the idea that you don't mansplain about why we should or shouldn't do the things I've mentioned, but abortion/birth control? Well, clearly some people think that's different. Nope. Our bodies, our choice. Really, it's that basic.
gopiscrap
(23,757 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Abortion Safe and Legal? Yes. Make it Rare? Not. The. Point.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1152484
I know a lot of people are 'personally' opposed to abortion and claim that they would never have one or encourage a loved one to. I hear and see a lot of Democrats using the "safe, legal, rare" phrase and, honestly, it bugs the SHIT out of me. Why? Because the "safe, legal and rare" language still stigmatizes women's health care choices. We don't owe anybody an explanation when we need abortions any more than we do when we need breast exams or pap smears, and their frequency is a medical matter, not a legal one.
I see Democrats reference party icons like Kennedy, Clinton and the party itself using this phrase. Thankfully the Democratic Party dropped that seriously antiquated language in 2008: http://thecoathangerproject.blogspot.com/2008/08/reclaiming-morality-of-abortion-and.html
And here is a good piece summarizing my feelings on this matter: http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2010/04/26/safe-legal-rare-another-perspective
A common narrative in the political and cultural discussions of reproductive health focuses on reducing the number of abortions taking place every year. Its supposed to be one thing that those who support abortion rights and those who oppose abortion can agree on, the so-called common ground. The assumption is that we can all agree that abortion itself is a bad thing, perhaps necessary, but definitely not a good thing. Even President Clinton declared (and many others have embraced) that abortion should be safe, legal and rare. According to the Guttmacher Institute, almost half of all pregnancies among American women in 2005 were unplanned or unintended. And of those, four in 10 ended in abortion. (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html#1) In other words, between one-fifth and one-quarter of all pregnancies ended in abortion. Without any other information, those statistics can sound scary and paint a picture of women as irresponsible or poor decision-makers. Therefore reducing the number of abortions is a goal that reproductive health, rights and justice activists should work toward, right?
Wrong. Those numbers mean nothing without context. If the 1.21 million abortions that took place in 2005 (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html#1) represent the number of women who needed abortions (and in my opinion, if a woman decides she needs an abortion, then she does), as well as the many women who chose to terminate pregnancies that they very much wanted but could not afford to carry to term, then that number is too high. The work of reducing the number of abortions, therefore, would entail creating an authentically family-friendly society, where women would have the support they need to raise their families, whatever forms they took. That could include eliminating the family caps in TANF, encouraging unionization of low-wage workers, reforming immigration policies and making vocational and higher education more accessible.
On the other hand, if those 1.21 million abortions represent only the women who could access abortion financially, geographically or otherwise, then that number is too low. Yes, too low. If thats the case, then what is an appropriate response? How do we best support women and their reproductive health? Do we dare admit that increasing the number of abortions might be not only good for womens health, but also moral and just?
What if we stopped focusing on the number of abortions and instead focused on the women themselves? Much of the work of the reproductive health, rights and justice movements would remain the same. We would still advocate for legislation that helps our families. We would still fight to protect abortion providers and their staffs from verbal harassment and physical violence. What would change, however, is the stigma and shame. By focusing on supporting womens agency and self-determination, rather than judging the outcomes of that agency, we send a powerful message. We say that we trust women. We say we will not use them and their experiences as pawns in a political game. We say we care about women and want them to have access to all the information, services and resources necessary to make the best decisions they can for themselves and their families. That is at the core of reproductive justice. Not reducing the number of abortions. Safe yes. Legal absolutely. Rare not the point.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)+infinity.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)To sum up the OP: It doesn't matter what I think. It's not my decision.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)deal with it.
no offense.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)I'm going to ignore your comments on this subject since your anger appears to be blinding you to what I'm saying.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)You do have opinions on abortion ... but you realize that your "opinion" is irrelevant.
I am a woman and my opinion is irrelevant to any situation involving an other woman (in this conversation r/t choice) that does not involve my choice ... because, it is not my decision.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)I knew I'd be stepping into a hornets nest with this post but I seem to have mostly angered those I agreed with.
Maybe I have a unique talent for that.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Too often making access to abortions "rare" does not include increasing contraception but instead is putting limits on abortion access.
THAT is the problem with the statement "safe legal rare".
last1standing
(11,709 posts)That's why it's not my place to make those decisions for women. By definition, I can't understand the realities of a situation I can't ever be placed into.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)work and fight as hard as she could to keep them legal so we could. It was what changed her politics as an adult, and what she used for her basis as whom to vote and campaign for. Women's rights = support. Any sort of anti-women or abortion restrictions = fight against.
Some mean "rare" as in "I hope no one has to get one", which translates into shaming those who do because they "had to". Some use "rare" like having appendicitis, which is not preventable but treatable in most cases.
Recognize the word "rare" implies judgement too often and make sure to define what it is you mean by it.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)And my desire for "rare" is, as I pointed out in my OP, merely my ignorant prejudice that has no bearing on the discussion. It stems out of the misguided belief that I can manage someone else's life better than they can manage it themselves.
I understand most of my prejudices and work to either eliminate them or at least not let them harm others. As I learn more, I find I have more prejudices I have to work on. This is merely one of the many.
leftstreet
(36,106 posts)wtf is that about?
last1standing
(11,709 posts)It's never a good thing, whether it's trying to tell a woman how to manage her body or tell an impoverished family not to buy junk food.
leftstreet
(36,106 posts)Is that what you're saying?
And you're assuming if poor people managed their money better, they'd need less help. Or if sick people took better care of themselves, they'd need less surgery or something
I'm not clear though what that has to do with human rights
last1standing
(11,709 posts)And I was saying that my ignorant prejudices don't give me the right to try to manage other people's lives.
We all have prejudices and we all think we can make decisions for other people better than they can (especially when we can't properly manage our own lives). The point of the OP was to expose these prejudices for what they are.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #12)
LiberalLoner This message was self-deleted by its author.
locks
(2,012 posts)I'm old now and I'm tired that we still feel the need to say "Of course, none of us want abortions to take place" and change the argument to contraceptives in order to convince others that they should be pro-choice. Whatever the reason, whatever the situation, every woman has the right to a safe and legal abortion. Just as the anti-choice people have the right to choose not to.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)I also understand, and agree with, those who say that "rare" implies a stigma.
get the red out
(13,462 posts)Abortion should be safe, legal, and without stigma.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)I don't think I said anything to the contrary in my OP.
cali
(114,904 posts)and the problems women now have accessing legal abortion.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)I think the real problem is that people who are ignorant of the realities (such as myself) think their opinions should have more merit than they do.
It's interesting that we never read about how women are trying to tell men what to do with their bodies.
Rex
(65,616 posts)So that really is not a valid argument imo.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)Neither does anyone other than the specific woman who has to make the decision.
Rex
(65,616 posts)We have no real input in the matter or should not. I have no problem giving my opinion on something (obviously) but I should never be in a position of dictating what a woman can or cannot do with her own body.
I know I would HATE it, if the shoe was on the other foot.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)I'm at least as guilty as anyone else in believing that I can manage other people's lives better than they can do it themselves. I also know, intellectually, that belief is wrong and offensive to those I want to manage.
That's why it doesn't matter if I think abortions should be rare. It's not my business, and it's not the business of anyone other than the woman who has to make the decision. Stating my opinion of the matter can't help, it can only offend. It does imply the stigma of an action that is inherently wrong, just maybe less wrong in the given circumstance.
In some ways, this OP was written to help me understand my own issues with trying to manage someone else's life. If others benefit from it (doubtful, as we all have to find out own way through ignorance) then I've provided a service, but really this is little more than a vanity thread.
Rex
(65,616 posts)someone else's life better then they can. Probably due to the fact that I have a hard time managing mine most of the time. Also, I don't think there is anything wrong with giving your own subjective opinion on something. I would be more worried if we lived in a society that censored opinions and everyone was afraid to give theirs. That being said, it is still just my opinion and should not be construed as giving instructions on how to live ones life.
You sound like you have control issues that you would like to let go of, because you know they are not going to benefit a situation. Self reflection is a good thing! If only we could get the GOP to do such things.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)This post should have followed your last comment.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023976932#post41
last1standing
(11,709 posts)This is just one instance where I felt I needed to out myself - for my own sake.
Rex
(65,616 posts)As long as we continue to learn and love imo, we are doing the right thing.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)How can be fight our own ignorance if we don't admit it exists?
The problem is every time I overcome one ignorant belief, I find two more that propped it up.
Daemonaquila
(1,712 posts)If you know you don't have a valid argument, you don't make one.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)I'll make sure to defer to your opinion before making my next post.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)I have made stance on women's issues and choice known on this board for the last 8 or 9 years. I view women as autonomous self determined beings (period). I am staunchly pro-choice, my emphasis is on choice ... Each individual woman has the right to make decisions that are right for her. (for the record I am a woman)
I am not seeing the offensive nature others are seeing in the OP ... the OP goes on to further clarify later in the thread. to me this is a guy saying ... "It is solely a woman's choice when it comes to abortion" ... he appears to view his role as helping in the political process to make sure women have the right to make their own choices.
I don't think he was attempting to use terms that shame or denigrate ... I think he really wanted to express support. From his OP (last line) "When you have the issue, you get to make the decision. Anyone else telling you what you should do isn't really pro-choice."
His last line tells me what i really need to know. I appreciate that.
I know, I know ... it's a discussion board and "we're discussing" ... I do not know the OP and couldn't actually tell you if I have ever read a post/comment by him. I am not trying to chastise anybody ... I really can't tell you why I feel bad for the guy (r/t responses), but I do ... perhaps it because I too can be "in-artful" at times (ie I can piss folk off when I am trying to express complete agreement)
last1standing
(11,709 posts)It's hard to blame them for disagreeing with things that I don't even agree with, myself. I know my prejudices are wrong and while I work to eliminate them, I can only admit they are there and try extremely hard not to let them affect others.
I think most of us have a prejudice that makes us believe we can manage other people's lives better than they can. In fact, I think that reality television is premised almost entirely on that belief. As a society, we love to judge other people's lives and think about how we would do better in their situation.
I admit my guilt in the OP but go on to say that my prejudice doesn't give me the right to tell someone else what they should do (which as you noticed is different than trying to tell people what the MUST do). Since it's not my body, or my life, it's offensive for me to try to tell others they should try to keep abortion rare. It's not my place because I'm not there.
Anyway, thanks again.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)because you are applying thought to a very important subject. It is clear that you have thought this out and have come to an opinion on it. Like all of us, your opinion will evolve. That is why I ask you to be of an open mind as you read some of the responses. Even the ones that have an argumentative tone.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)I've always spouted the "safe, legal, and rare" talking point because ... well, I don't know why, really. I guess it's because I tend to think I make better decisions than others - which is patently untrue. It was likely a bad decision to even make this OP.
Unfortunately, logic can live with ignorance and does in all of us to some extent. My empathy for the pain of others can overcome the logic that I can't completely understand their situation. It's not for me to judge them or to try to manage their lives for them.
While I knew that logically, the OP and the resulting thread has helped me sort it in my mind a bit better.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Making this op was a very good decision on your part. Everyone willing to read through the op and sub threads in good faith will gain something.
ancianita
(36,039 posts)Your statement here is my position. Particularly, the word rare doesn't enter into the 'moral and just' argument, either.
Abortion's been shown to be good for the health of all the women, including myself, who've ever had one. "Dare" implies that women, on some level, are surrounded by shame messages about it. They probably are. But I, for one, will never be ashamed of women's free will, legal and social autonomy or spiritual status over the issues that keep getting shoved forward about abortion.