JFK Conference: Bill Kelly introduced new evidence - adding Air Force One tape recordings

[Octafish]

As a Democrat, a DUer and as a citizen of the United States, I was proud to attend the Passing the Torch: An International Symposium on the 50th Anniversary of the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy at Duquesne University. One of the many important things discussed there was what historian and researcher, William E. Kelly, Jr. presented to the conference. He added new information to the historical record: a more complete record of the Air Force One radio transmissions made on Nov. 22, 1963. Now a fellow DUer, please welcome Bill Kelly, should he pop up on a thread.



In his presentation, Mr. Kelly described the provenance of the new recording -- discovered among the personal effects of Gen. Chester Clifton, an aide to President Kennedy who was aboard Air Force One on the trip to Dallas. The new tapes add content to what was on the version held by the National Archives.

To get as much information as possible from the new material, Mr. Kelly contacted Ed Primeau, the audio expert who had assisted in the analysis of 9-11 recordings in the Trayvon Martin case. Mr. Kelly and Mr. Primeau combined the tapes and created a transcript. It is available online:

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/

Interestingly, the more complete tape still does not have information that was, evidently, available in the mid-1960s when authors Theodore White, William Manchester and JFK Press Secretary Pierre Salinger quoted from them in their books. Among the points those authors made that are not on the tapes available: Sections of military personnel conversations from the plane to Washington; President Lyndon B. Johnson was concerned about Soviet involvement in the assassination; McGeorge Bundy was in charge of the Situation Room at the White House; Bundy contacted Air Force One to report Oswald arrested and there was no conspiracy.

Here's an overview of what the new Air Force One tapes:

http://vimeo.com/76173546

The new combined Air Force One tape is about an hour and half long. It still may be a small fraction of what may still be available in some archive, based on the amount of material referenced and the normal procedure to tape all transmissions between Air Force One and the various governmental and military authorities. Mr. Kelly estimates there may be as much as 8 hours of AF1 tapes from that terrible day in Dallas.

Some important background on the tapes and the history:

Chilling tape from Air Force One on day JFK shot just released.

CBS News, Jan. 31, 2012

It's been nearly a half-century since the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

EXCERPT...

The full audio of transmissions from White House Communications Agency (which captured the tapes) that day includes 42 minutes edited out of the original public version. It's likely to peak the interest of conspiracy theorists who are already asking why this material was cut out of the original.

Then-Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Curtis LeMay had been a frequent opponent of Kennedy's. His whereabouts on the day of the assassination has always been a mystery.

In the newly public audio, we learn that LeMay was airborne, even as JFK's body was being flown back to Washington. And an aide to LeMay tried urgently to reach his boss.

"General LeMay," the aide said, "is in a C 140. ... He's inbound. His code name is Grandson. And I wanna talk to him. ... If you can't work him now, it's gonna be too late, because he'll be on the ground in a half-hour."

Historian Robert Dallek suggests doubters will wonder if the aide's comments about not reaching LeMay within 30 minutes may be "too late" could have some sinister meaning. "I'd doubt these tapes will put the conspiracy theory to rest," he says. "They continue to believe it was a conspiracy and again, they just can't accept the proposition that a lone wolf, a single, and someone as dysfunctional as Lee Harvey Oswald, could have carried off this assassination of the president."

CONTINUED...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57368696/chilling-tape-from-air-force-one-on-day-jfk-shot/

For those new to Gen. Curtis LeMay and his relationship with President Kennedy:

JFK Cuba crisis tapes released

By Jon Marcus
Associated Press

BOSTON (AP) -117 ‹ At the height of the Cuban missile crisis, one of President John F. Kennedy's top military commanders warned him that failing to invade the island would be like backing down to Hitler's initial demands in Europe.

"This is almost as bad as the appeasement at Munich," Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Curtis LeMay told Kennedy on Oct. 19, 1962, according to newly declassified White House tape recordings released Thursday.

LeMay's comment "was an amazing thing to say to any president, but it was a particularly amazing thing to say to this president," said Sheldon Stern, historian at the John F. Kennedy Library in Boston, where the tape recordings were released. "It's a deep personal insult."

Kennedy's father, Joseph P. Kennedy, served as U.S. ambassador to Britain at the time of the 1938 Munich conference, where the British and French agreed to let Nazi Germany take land from Czechoslovakia in exch ange for a short-lived promise of peace. The elder Kennedy's support of appeasement later was strongly criticized and may have cost him any hope of running for national office.

LeMay, like other military leaders, advocated immediate military intervention to destroy the Soviet missiles and unfinished silos that had been detected by aerial reconnaissance in Cuba. He said blockading ships bound for Cuba, as other presidential advisers urged, would lead to war anyway.

President Kennedy, who privately called LeMay "field marshal," did not respond to the remark and the meeting went on to cover other military and diplomatic issues.

CONTINUED...

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/1996_1373492/tapes-from-cuban-missile-crisis-reveal-insult-by-k.html

The tapes show that Col. Dorman wanted desperately to reach Gen. Curtis LeMay to know before he landed. The tapes also show Gen. LeMay disobeyed an order from Air Force Secretary Zuckert to return to Andrews Air Force Base on Nov. 22, 1963, choosing instead to fly to Washington National Airport. Mr. Kelly explains why this is important:

WAS GENERAL LEMAY AT CAMP X ON 11/22/63?

Where was General Curtis LeMay at the time president Kennedy was assassinated?

by Bill Kelly
JFK Countercoup, June 4, 2012

Was he on vacation hunting and fishing in upstate Michigan, as his official biographies attest, or was he at Camp X or at a secret command & control bunker overseeing the Dealey Plaza operation?

An official biography of Air Force General Curtis LeMay reports that at the time President Kennedy was assassinated he was on vacation, hunting and fishing with family members in upstate Michigan.

"Iron Eagle: The Turbulent Life of General Curtis LeMay," by Thomas M. Coffey (p.430) reports that LeMay's wife was from Michigan and he had apparently told his biographer he was in Michigan on vacation and "hurried back to Washington in time for the funeral."

But an Andrews Air Force base log book, that was salvaged from the trash and almost destroyed, indicates that LeMay ordered a special Air Force jet to pick him up in Canada shortly after news of the assassination was widely broadcast, which indicated to some that he wasn’t hunting and fishing in Michigan.

Exploring the possibility that Gen. LeMay attended JFK’s autopsy at Bethesda, as Navy medical corpsman Paul O’Conner attests, Doug Horne, the Chief Analyst for Military Records for the Assassination Records Review Board, made note of LeMay’s presence in Canada rather than Michigan, as his official biography reports.

And Larry Hancock, author of “Someone Would Have Talked” and “Nexus,” also thought it significant and notes: "I was struck by the fact that it (LeMay’s bio) made a big deal of his being so remote that he was out of contact and was not even able to make it back to Washington until the funeral. I don't see that as a minor thing, the book definitely creates the impression that he was not back in Washington that weekend. This really is an important point, if Doug is right and can be verified it looks pretty certain that LeMay was handing out disinformation and there would need to be a good reason for that. After all, it would not be unusual for him to rush back to DC or to some other AF base where he could achieve command and control capability. What seems to me not at all understandable is why he would go to Bethesda, and then lie about it."

From the salvaged Andrews Air Force Base Log Book for 11/22/63, it is officially noted that a special order to pick up LeMay in Toronto was requested at 1:20 PM CST (2:20 PM EST, 1420 GMT) and a special SAM – Special Air Mission C-140 jet took off Andrews at 1446 (1:46 PM CST 2:46 PM EST) to pick him up in Toronto, but after the plane took off (1:50 PM CST 2:50 PM EST) it was redirected to Wiarton, a Canadian Air Force base north of Toronto.

The official internet web site for Wiarton includes a photo of the Air Force base, but also makes tantalizing references to Camp X, the secret training camp for spies used by the British and Americans during World War II, and used as a hideaway for a prominent Soviet defector during the Cold War.

CONTINUED...

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/search?q=lemay+whereabouts

Why it matters.

Democracy depends on Truth. The Republic depends on Justice. That is, the reality that ours is a nation under law.

Once a criminal is, or criminals are, allowed to go free, Justice has been denied. We find ourselves operating under a falsehood, we are living a Big Lie.

We as a Nation have been on the criminal path since November 22, 1963.

DUers know you don’t need to read a history book or watch a tee vee special to know: It shows. Since 1964 and the Gulf of Tonkin, it’s been a series of wars without end for profit. And in the process, the rich became super-rich -- the richest and most powerful people in history.

Thanks for reading. Keep spreading the Truth, DU! The next 50 years can be different -- they can be decades of peace and prosperity for ALL: They can be Democratic.

[Sanity Claws]

1. How could Bundy have possibly known there was no conspiracy when Oswald was arrested?

Bundy's name rang a bell with me so I looked him up on Wikipedia. He is mainly known for escalating the Vietnam War. He came from a wealthy Republican family.

So the person who immediately claims there's no conspiracy escalates Vietnam. Hmmmm. My tinfoil hat is around here somewhere. Excuse me while I go look.

[Octafish]

7. JFK's aide Kenny O'Donnell may have wondered about that...

From The Secret History of the CIA by Joseph Trento:

EXCERPT…

Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest accompanying them? To this day, nothing has been found in government archives tying the killings to either John or Robert Kennedy. So how did the tools and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he came up with: “On instructions from Averell Harriman…. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodge’s own military assistant.”

Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York, W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long public career. In 1960, President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate “with the full confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of all aspects of United States policy.” By 1963, according to Corson, Harriman was running “Vietnam without consulting the president or the attorney general.”

The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security team was loyal. As Corson put it, “Kenny O’Donnell (JFK’s appointments secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor, was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president. He was especially worried about Michael Forrestal, a young man on the White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.”

At the heart of the murders was the sudden and strange recall of Saigon Station Chief Jocko Richardson and his replacement by a no-name team barely known to history. The key member was a Special Operations Army officer, John Michael Dunn, who took his orders, not from the normal CIA hierarchy but from Harriman and Forrestal.

According to Corson, “John Michael Dunn was known to be in touch with the coup plotters,” although Dunn’s role has never been made public. Corson believes that Richardson was removed so that Dunn, assigned to Ambassador Lodtge for “special operations,” could act without hindrance.

SOURCE:

“The Secret History of the CIA.” Joseph Trento. 2001, Prima Publishing. pp. 334-335.

[hootinholler]

19. Is this the same Harriman as in

Brown Brothers Harriman? Later Kellog, Brown and Root IIRC.

It's like a smell in your refrigerator that you can't seem to find.

[Octafish]

27. The very same.

Family made its fortune in the rail business. He was in the Wall Street insider investment banking business with George Herbert Walker and later Prescott Bush, Sr.

Vietnam and Iraq Wars Started by Same People

Here's another DU Oldie I can find on the subject via GOOGLE:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2933358

I do remember discussing this and a whole lot more earlier on DU1 -- where I learned a lot of important information that doesn't get addressed on the television, radio, print or school.

[Holly_Hobby]

102. Jackie and the children stayed at Averell Harriman's home

during the winter of 1964 after the assassination. Isn't that interesting? Then she bought a house on the same street as Harriman before moving to NYC.

Wish I could remember which book it was in.

[Octafish]

103. James Galbraith wrote his dad, John Kenneth Galbraith, made the arrangements...

JFK After 50 Years

By Prof. James K Galbraith
Global Research, November 12, 2013
Austin American-Statesman

I never met President Kennedy although I have a letter from him, on my ninth birthday in 1961, expressing hope that I might grow up to be as good a Democrat as my father “but possibly of a more convenient size.” On the day he was shot I was at school. I remember above all Mother’s gray face, and the small clumps of men gathered on the Cambridge sidewalks, talking quietly as we drove home.

Dad was in Washington. His message home was, “it’s the worst day of my life.” Realizing that the White House would no longer be hers, he arranged for Mrs. Kennedy to stay at Averell Harriman’s house in Georgetown. A few days later, he wrote a first draft of President Johnson’s address to Congress. It was not the one Johnson used.

For thirty years afterward I barely thought about those days. In our family – I now realize – they were walled off by pain. Vietnam, Watergate, career, marriage and divorce came and went. And then, by happenstance in 1993, I started thinking again. There were by that time some 600 books on the assassination, or so I heard.

I read perhaps one-tenth that number, in those days when the topic gripped me. What did I learn? That contested history is hard. Length does not correlate with depth. Authorities and endorsements mean nothing. Footnotes matter. To plumb the murder of John F. Kennedy you have to know how to read.

I have contributed to the history. One issue concerned Kennedy’s decision, made in October 1963 with the support of Robert McNamara, to order the withdrawal of all US advisers from Vietnam by the end of 1965. The fact of that decision was later suppressed. To re-establish it, even with clear evidence, took a battle among historians that lasted fifteen years. And the battle goes on. On October 27, Jill Abramson published a long essay in The New York Times Book Review that includes this statement: “…the belief that [Kennedy] would have limited the American presence in Vietnam is rooted as much in the romance of “what might have been” as in the documented record.”

CONTINUED...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/jfk-after-50-years/5357874?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=jfk-after-50-years

PS: Thank you for remembering, Holly_Hobby. You are doing the work of Democracy.

[gopiscrap]

12. yup, I agree with you suspicions

[gopiscrap]

2. I would love to be there

[Octafish]

8. Generals mocking JFK behind his back during Cuban Missile Crisis caught on another tape...

"Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it." -- Anonymous.

Me, too, gopiscrap. So, talking about pressure:

'Go in there and frig around with the missiles, you're screwed'

The moment general mocked JFK behind his back at the height of Cuban Missile Crisis caught on tape

By DANIEL BATES
The Mail
24 September 2012

It was the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis and the nation was supposed to be pulling together.

But John F Kennedy’s top generals were actually bad-mouthing him behind his back - whilst standing in the White House.

When the former US President left the room Marine Corps Commandant General David Shoup said that Mr Kennedy was doing things ‘piecemeal’ and needed a talking to.

SNIP...

But the tapes reveal that after Mr Kennedy and Defence Secretary Robert McNamara went out the room, General Shoup launched into his own tirade - without realising the tape was still running.

CONTINUED...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2207946/Revealed-JFKs-stabbing-generals-mocked-President-battled-avoid-regarded-trigger-happy-Americans-lost-Berlin.html

I posted this previously on DU, because I find it odd that this is never mentioned in my hometown newspaper nor in any history book I've seen in school. They must want us to forget something important. Thanks for remembering to ask "Why?", gopiscrap.

[gopiscrap]

9. wow, fucking warmongers!

[Octafish]

56. Lisa Pease: JFK, FDR and 'Seven Days in May'

JFK, FDR and 'Seven Days in May'

By Lisa Pease
ConsortiumNews, February 24, 2009

EXCERPT...

The film "Seven Days in May" began as a novel by Fletcher Knebel, inspired to a great degree by Knebel's conversations with Gen. Curtis LeMay, President Kennedy's contentious Air Force Chief of Staff who was furious at Kennedy for not sending in full military support during the Bay of Pigs incident.

Additionally, LeMay infamously argued during the Cuban Missile Crisis for a preemptive nuclear first-strike against the Soviet Union, a move Kennedy abhorred.

One of Kennedy's friends, Paul Fay, Jr., wrote in his book The Pleasure of His Company how one summer weekend in 1962, one of Kennedy's friends bought Knebel's book to his attention, and Kennedy read the book that night.

The next day, Kennedy discussed the plot with friends, who wanted to know if Kennedy felt such a scenario was possible. Bear in mind this was after the Bay of Pigs but before the Cuban Missile Crisis.

"It's possible," Kennedy acknowledged. "It could happen in this country, but the conditions would have to be just right. If, for example, the country had a young President, and he had a Bay of Pigs, there would be a certain uneasiness.

“Maybe the military would do a little criticizing behind his back, but this would be written off as the usual military dissatisfaction with civilian control. Then if there were another Bay of Pigs, the reaction of the country would be, 'Is he too young and inexperienced?'

“The military would almost feel that it was their patriotic obligation to stand ready to preserve the integrity of the nation, and only God knows just what segment of democracy they would be defending if they overthrew the elected establishment."

After a moment, Kennedy continued. "Then, if there were a third Bay of Pigs, it could happen."

CONTINUED...

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/022409a.html

[gopiscrap]

57. thanks I want to read that!

[kelliekat44]

59. If JFK had to put up with this sh*t, what do imagine President Obama has to face? nt

[851-977]

3. Did LBJ suspect Soviet involvement, or was he pretending to suspect it? nt

[Octafish]

6. That's all Mr. Kelly said on that. Others at the conference expressed the opinion LBJ...

...had zero to do with what happened at Dallas. Others at the conference expressed suspicions.

BTW: Welcome to DU, 951-977!

[arthritisR_US]

79. Are you familiar with the book Thom Hartmann

co wrote with another chap? If so what do you think of their premise?

[jehop61]

4. Curtis Lemay

Had been shot at several weeks before the assination while sitting in his home. I seem to remember that Oswald was blamed later. Any old DUers like myself have better facts?

[former9thward]

5. You are thinking of General Edwin Walker.

He was a right wing retired General who was shot at in Dallas in April, 1963. Oswald was blamed for the shooting after he was arrested though it was never proved.

[gopiscrap]

11. I doubt that Osawld did that

but then again I don't think Oswald was the lone shooter.

[zeemike]

22. No but he was the lone patsy.

And the rest got away with it.

[Sanity Claws]

14. And Walker maintained that there was someone else involved.

Walker was no prize.
He was a bigot and incited a riot to prevent a college from being desegregated.

Oswald supposedly hit a window frame instead of getting a direct hit on Walker in the alleged assassination, even though he was only about 100 feet away (per Wikipedia.) However, Oswald supposedly was a crack shot who hit Kennedy from way off.
My tinfoil hat is all lit up.

[former9thward]

21. The only reason Oswald was considered a crack shot was because

he was ranked as "expert" in his qualification shooting in the Marine Corps. That is just a standard military feel good ranking. I was in the Air Force and handled a rifle for all of 4 hours on the range one day and I got an "expert" ranking. In real life I'm not a very good shot. It is all B.S.

[jehop61]

16. thanks. memory does, at times, play tricks

Knew it was some crazy general.

[gopiscrap]

10. no LeMay was the crazy fuck who was a vice presidential candidate

and war criminal!

[xiamiam]

13. have you come to your own conclusions?

I've followed on and off for the past 50 years and have finally lumped just about everything I've learned into my own scenario. There is a video available from jerry kroth which comes close to what I think ..just curious as you seem to have devoted a lot of time to uncovering the truth. Here is a link to his video ..

[Octafish]

29. The evidence seems to show a clear trail from LHO to Moscow.

Guy has a record as a disaffected shmo. Guy goes to work with a package. President shot outside place he works. Guy runs and is arrested at the movies with a gun. Guy says he's a patsy to reporters and asks to speak to a lawyer specializing in defending those in political conspiracies. Guy tries to make a phone call from jail to a US Army intelligence big wig in North Carolina. Guy gets shot dead in police custody. J Edgar Hoover tells new President about a "little incident" in Mexico City involving someone impersonating the guy.

A great chunk of the rest of the evidence shows the guy couldn't have done what he is accused of doing.

Who laid down the evidence, and why, are other matters. Personally, it looks like figures in the national security establishment. My reasons: JFK said "No" to them every time they wanted war.

JFK stood up to the War Party at least four times...

Even though they knew their invasion plans were compromised, the CIA and Pentagon tried to force Kennedy to make war over the Bay of Pigs.

While an attack on Soviet missile bases in Cuba and on ships at sea would escalate to nuclear war, the Pentagon and most of the Cabinet tried to force Kennedy to make war, nuclear if necessary -- the Cuban Missile Crisis.

The Pentagon and the Hawks in Congress and his Cabinet recommended war in Vietnam and southeast Asia to stop the spread of Communism, Kennedy sent volunteers -- which he ordered out by the end of 1964 -- but said he would never commit U.S. draftees to fight in another country's civil war, Vietnam.

DUers -- especially Democrats -- should read for themselves what JFK faced from the Joint Chiefs and the Big Money, uh, supporters of the Military Industrial Complex when he proposed the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty. It's almost unbelievable, until one remembers the rest of the story.

Most troublesome to me, seeing how the Hawks lied America into invading Iraq twice in the last 22 years, DCI Allen Dulles and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Lyman Lemnitzer counseled Kennedy to order an all-out nuclear attack on the Soviet Union in Fall of 1963 -- the optimal time for a successful pre-emptive war.

PS: Thank you very much for the heads-up on Jerry Kroth. I have not read his work, but will check him and the video out more this weekend.

[deutsey]

15. Oliver Stone was on Democracy Now! today talking about JFK

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/11/5/oliver_stone_on_50th_anniversary_of

Three-time Academy Award-winning director, producer and screenwriter Oliver Stone joins us for the hour to discuss the 50th anniversary of President John F. Kennedy’s assassination on November 22, which was chronicled in his blockbuster film, "JFK." A Vietnam War veteran, Stone has made around two dozen acclaimed Hollywood films, including "Platoon," "Salvador," "Born on the Fourth of July," "Nixon," "South of the Border" and "Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps." A commemorative edition of "JFK" comes out next week. Most recently, Stone has co-written the 10-part Showtime series, "Oliver Stone’s Untold History of the United States," and companion book with the same name, co-written by Peter Kuznick, professor of history and director of the Nuclear Studies Institute at American University.

[avaistheone1]

18. Excellent!

Thanks for sharing.

[Octafish]

30. Oliver Stone may've saved democracy in the United States of America.

He created "JFK" as counter-myth, in opposition to the Big Lie foisted by those running the national security state. Stone said he doubts he could get the film made today.

Thank you for the heads-up. In the DemocracyNow! interview with Amy Goodman, Stone makes clear that his movie is correct in regards to the assassination itself: from the time frame in Dallas to the bogus magic bullet spun to make the government's theory work. He and the historian also do an excellent job detailing their documentary. Amy demonstrates the journalist's dilemma: Insufficient time to become an expert in all the various fields covered by just one day's news. Still, she is light years beyond most reporters around.

Oliver Stone was profound at the conference in Duquesne. I plan on writing a report on what he said as a speaker in regards to the untold history of the nation. I also plan to write about a panel on the media in which he and several other speakers participated. If they'd asked, I'd have brought up the importance of word-of-mouth, among other things, in spreading truth.

When it comes to these issues, you're no slouch, deutsey. Very much appreciate your writings and analyses. We need to continue, if we want the next generations to get anything approaching the truth, money and power are so closely allied.

[deutsey]

31. Thanks, Octa!

Wish I could've been there at the conference, so I appreciate your reports on it (as well as your other posts, of course!).

[calimary]

17. Thanks, Octafish! And a Big DU Welcome to Bill Kelly, wherever you are!

Glad BOTH of you are with us!

[Octafish]

75. Thank you, calimary!

DU represents one of the few habitable islands in a deadly sea of disinformation when it comes to discussing the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. While we can't force the news media to cover what's been learned over the past 50 years, the powers that control the news still haven't been able to stop people from spreading ideas by word of mouth.

[louis-t]

20. I doubt the "LeMay was really in Canada" thing has any legs.

Northern Michigan is very close to Canada. It would not have been easy to get directly to Washington from there. He could have picked up a flight from Michigan or Canada to Toronto (almost exactly one half the distance in a fairly straight line back to Washington).

Besides, I saw the special the other night that claims a SS agent accidentally fired the fatal shot. As long as that theory has apparently been around, that was the first I've heard it.

Learning the difference between a 'Hawk' and 'Dove' in grade school is where I first heard the name Curtis LeMay.

[zeemike]

26. Yep there are all kinds of theories around.

And they are disinformation to cover up what actually happened...and to discredit it by mixing the truth with a whole bunch of shit so that no one will dig through it to the truth.

[stranger81]

23. Here's Bill Kelly's thread at the JFK Education Forum on the same subject.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15544

Long, but well worth the read.

[stranger81]

25. Also see the Doug Horne interview linked here, re the Clifton tapes:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18865

[Octafish]

44. Doug Horne worked for the ARRB...

...Thank you, stranger81! He is most profound.

http://fff.org/explore-freedom/article/jfks-war-against-the-national-security-establishment/

[zeemike]

24. Hope this doesn't get locked.

Because there is a lot of good information in this thread.
But the way things are I would not be surprised if it did

[Octafish]

83. Detroit Free Press has story on Sunday front page...

Echoes of History

JFK's last day: Rochester Hills audio expert's care, tapes reveal info, hint at more

By Julie Hinds Detroit Free Press Staff Writer
November 9, 2013

EXCERPT...

It's an 88-minute audio recording of Air Force One radio transmissions that's described as the most complete version of those communications yet.

SNIP...

It was enhanced for sound quality and combined from two separate tapes by audio and video forensic expert Ed Primeau and his Rochester Hills-based Primeau Forensics.

SNIP...

Primeau said he believes "100%" that there was editing done to the two tapes that were used in the 88-minute version. And that's bound to raise the sort of questions that keep the search for answers alive.

Expert witness

Kennedy's death is a 50-year-old case where almost anything can be viewed different ways by different people. But Primeau's expertise is driven by fulfilling the assignment, not furthering an agenda.

"I work both sides," he said of his past experience with both prosecutors and defense attorneys.

Primeau, 55, grew up in Detroit and Troy originally wanting to be a DJ. Instead, he built a career behind the scenes in audio and video production and founded Primeau Productions in 1984, which lists Bob Seger and Billy Sims Barbecue among its past clients.

In the mid-1990s, Primeau started focusing on the growing field of audio and video forensics. He has been an expert witness for criminal and civil cases across the country. In 2012, he was asked by the Orlando Sentinel to analyze the desperate voice overheard in the 911 call in the Trayvon Martin case, a task that led to appearances on CNN and MSNBC and to his being named as a potential witness by the prosecution.

CONTINUED...

http://m.freep.com/localnews/article?a=2013311100070&f=1232

PS: The article details Mr. Kelly's role, as well.

PPS: Shows also how DU is ahead of the pack.

[zeemike]

90. Well I am glad this is still hear and active.

It was an important event in my life and the truth has never been told...and the information was locked up for 75 years so that all involved could get away with the crime...and no one alive would remember it.
Hopefully the 50 anniversary will keep the hunt for the truth alive.

[Bolo Boffin]

28. More from your jfkcountercoup link:

And although both Toronto and Wiarton are in Canada, they are actually south east of the rural lake area of North Michigan where LeMay was said to have been at the time of the assassination, and it is possible that LeMay flew by private airplane across Lake Huron that separates Michigan and Canada, to Wiarton, which is closer to Michigan than Toronto.

[SidDithers]

33. SOP doesn't apply to some posters...nt

Sid

[Bolo Boffin]

34. So it goes.

But that means discussing the OP is OK, too.

[Octafish]

36. Why do you continue to imply things that are not true about me, SidDithers?

Show where I am wrong and I will apologize for making a mistake and correct my post.

Otherwise, it's odd how you so regularly pop up to defend the warmongers and banksters of the BFEE.

http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/10023176980#post58

[sabrina 1]

88. You are a very respected DUer Octafish, one of the most respected, in fact one of the reasons

many people are still here. Keep up the good work. You make this forum worth reading!

[Bolo Boffin]

43. The "new tape" was released in Jan '12. And the article shows it's not a lie

necessarily. It says there's time for a private flight from Northern Michigan to Wiarton. So the "new tape" is not conclusive evidence for a lie on his part.

[Octafish]

45. The salient information from the new tape is LeMay lied about his whereabouts (REPOST).

(Below is what I deleted above. Sorry, Bolo Boffin. Wrong button.)

Near Toronto, Canada is not near Northern Michigan.

http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/experts/enhanced-air-force-one-tapes-captures-top-generals-response-to-jfks-murder/

Then, LeMay disobeyed an order from his civilian superior, Air Force Secretary Eugene M. Zuckert, to return to Andrews Air Force Base on Nov. 22, 1963. LeMay instead chose to fly to Washington National Airport, much closer to Bethesda Naval Hospital.



Why misdirect? Take the shortest route between two points. Things in '63 were slower, too, as the Interstates weren't what they are today as seen on that map, courtesy of GOOGLE.

[Bolo Boffin]

46. And my points still remain valid. Not a new tape, and not proof of a lie.

Evidence of this order LeMay disobeyed? Thanks.

Washington National is right outside the Pentagon, right?

If someone is in Northern Michigan and wants to get to Washington, DC, an excellent place to meet a plane is in Toronto/Wiarton. Shortest route between two points and all that.

[Octafish]

47. Absolutely. And the fact remains LeMay disobeyed orders...

...about where he was to land and meet with Sec. Zuckert, which reminds me:

The parts referencing LeMay were the ones cut from the Air Force One tapes in the National Archives.

Missing minutes from Air Force One recording made after JFK’s assassination reveal anguish on plane

President ‘Kennedy apparently shot in the head,’ radio operator heard saying

BY CORKY SIEMASZKO / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
TUESDAY, JANUARY 31, 2012, 1:35 PM

EXCERPT...

On the tape, a LeMay aide can be heard explaining that he has been trying to reach the general.

“General LeMay,” the aide said, “is in a C 140... He's inbound. His code name is Grandson. And I wanna talk to him... If you can't work him now, it's gonna be too late, because he'll be on the ground in a half-hour.”

SOURCE: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/missing-minutes-air-force-recording-made-jfk-assassination-reveal-anguish-plane-article-1.1014653

Gee. Why would that information be cut out of the copy in the National Archives?

I'll have to listen to my recording, but I believe the other thing missing was the new information referencing the missing code book from Air Force One. That was needed to identify a person in the White House situation room.

Why, come to think of it, if anyone wanted to declare nuclear war, they'd need that code book.

[Bolo Boffin]

48. Lemay disobeying orders is yet to be established, Octafish.

I don't know why it was cut out, and you haven't given me any reason to think this at all relevant.

[Octafish]

49. It's relevant because it was edited out of the tapes in the National Archives.

That's a problem.

As for LeMay: He was ordered to go one place and meet with the Secretary of the Air Force and went to another. I didn't make that up. That's what the record shows.

That's not my problem.

Both are relevant, however, as most people who read about them are reading them for the first time (evidence for how bad the nation's news media and history books are).

And both are things people should know about in a democracy. That goes for Republicans, Independents and whatever the 50-percent who don't bother to vote in addition to Democrats.

[Bolo Boffin]

50. The conversation between LBJ, Ladybird, and Rose Kennedy was also edited out, Octafish.

Is that relevant? It was edited out, your reason for considering the conversation about LeMay relevant:

For the first time, the complete audio record of the flight back from Dallas to Washington is available to the public online, from the National Archives, for free.

It helps to fill in the record of that day of sorrow, confusion and fear.

"Gonna put Mrs. Rose Kennedy on the line now," one voice can be heard saying.

Lyndon Johnson, newly sworn-in as president of the United States, and his wife, Ladybird, attempted to console President Kennedy's mother.

"I wish to God," Lyndon Johnson said, "there was something that I could do. And I wanted to tell you that we are grieving with you."

"Thank you very much," Rose Kennedy responded. "Thank you very much. I know you loved Jack. And he loved you."

"Mrs. Kennedy," Ladybird said, "We just wanted to -- we feel like we've lost..."

"Thank you very much," Rose Kennedy repeated." Then, goodbyes all-around.

I find the conversation about LeMay just about as relevant as this one to the assassination. I don't have any reason to select between one or the other.

And you will excuse me if I do not accept your simple assertion that LeMay disobeyed an order. Until I see corroborating evidence, you're just begging the question. I've done a couple of Internet searches and found nothing about this. Since it's your assertion, I'll wait for you to back it up.

[Octafish]

53. My source is Bill Kelly. His source is Andrews AFB Log from 22 November 1963.

From his blog:

General Curtis LeMay on 11/22/63

Friday, July 15, 2011

According to the Andrews AFB Log from that day (posted below on this blog), LeMay flew from Wiarton to Washington National Airport, despite being ordered to fly to Andrews.

LeMay's official biography (p.430, "Iron Eagle: The Turbulent Life of General Curtis LeMay," by Thomas M. Coffey)says he was visiting his wife's family in Michigan when the news arrived about JFK's assassination, so there is a discrepancy in the records.

Randy Owen makes the following observations:

-LeMay departed Wiarton at 4:04pm (Eastern) and arrived in Washington at 5:12pm

-LeMay disobeyed Air Force Sec. Zuckert's wishes to meet him at Andrews Air Force Base before Air Force One arrived with JFK's body. Instead, LeMay insisted his military plane land at the civilian Washington National Airport. Horne says this would put LeMay closer to Bethesda than Andrews.

-Oddly, the website for the Wiarton Airport has a link to a website about Camp-X. Camp-X was created in World War II in Oshawa, Ont. to train spies. The Camp-X website even has a photo of Ian Fleming visiting the Camp site.

Larry Hancock notes: "I was struck by the fact that it made a big deal of his being so remote that he was out of contact and was not even able to make it back to Washington until the funeral. I don't see that as a minor thing, the book definitely creates the impression that he was not back in Washington that weekend. This really is an important point, if Doug is right and can be verified it looks pretty certain that LeMay was handing out disinformation and there would need to be a good reason for that. After all, it would not be unusual for him to rush back to DC or to some other AF base where he could achieve command and control capability. What seems to me not at all understandable is why he would go to Bethesda, and then lie about it."

SOURCE: http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2011/07/general-curtis-lemay-on-112263.html

[Bolo Boffin]

54. OK, already it's changed from "disobeyed an order" to "disobeyed wishes."

(Added to be clear: Octafish says "disobeyed order," but the link (Kelly) says "disobeyed wishes.&quot

Do you admit there is a difference between an order and a wish?

Now your link says this came from the log "posted below" on that website. Here's the link to that actual page.

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2011/07/andrews-afb-log-112263.html

OK, now that we've gotten to the actual log, let's see what we have. (I'm granting that Kelly has transcribed it correctly.)

1625 [4:25pm] 24197 Gen Lemay Dept Wairton 1604 ETA DCA 1715, Driver & Aide at DCA ETA charged 1710, Secy Zuckert Will Meet Lemay at ADW. (notified AC f t )

1650 [4:50] =09=09Call From 26000, need steps FWD Door, FWD Gally Door & Lift Truck AfT Pax Door, Body in Rear.

1700 [5:00pm] =09Gen Lemay Will land DCA NOT ADW.

Now what does that say? The middle notation (1650) isn't necessary for our purposes. The first is the "order/wish" and the second is where Lemay is landing at DCA.

But wait. What's this in the 1625 entry? "Gen Lemay Dept Wairton 1604 ETA DCA 1715."

In standard English, this first part of the 16:25 entry says General LeMay departed Wiarton at 16:04 and his estimated time of arrival at DCA would be 17:15.

At DCA. Not ADW, Andrews Air Force Base. DCA. So when the 16:25 entry at the end says that Secretary Zuckert is going to meet LeMay at Andrews, what the heck is going on? The entry just said Lemay is landing at DCA at 17:15. So why in the world does Zuckert think the meeting's at ADW at all?

Which is why, I'd say, at 17:00, LeMay evidently sends a clarification that he is landing at DCA, not ADW.

But there's a third part of the 16:25 entry. The first part is that LeMay has left Wiarton and is landing at DCA. The last part is that Zuckert is meeting LeMay at Andrews.

What's that middle part?

"Driver & Aide at DCA ETA charged 1710"

To my eye, that looks like a driver and LeMay's aide are expected to be at DCA at 17:10, five minutes before LeMay lands there.

I wonder where they are going to drive him? Naturally you will say Bethesda because LeMay can run the Dealey Plaza operation from a secret camp in Canada, but he has to be personally present for the autopsy. I say he's going to be driven to Andrews after landing at DCA to meet Zuckert, because that makes more sense of what the log says.

YMMV.

[Octafish]

55. No. LeMay disobeyed an order to fly to Andrews AFB. All the rest of that is what you say.

Why do you have to imply I wrote something I didn't write, Bolo Boffin?

[Bolo Boffin]

58. I have shown you are wrong about that.

Now comes the part where you completely ignore what the log said and that you are misstating even what Bill Kelly said.

And I have not implied you wrote anything other than what you wrote. I made sure to clarify who said what. Now comes the part where you continue to say I did misrepresent you when I didn't.

You and Kelly both have no evidence LeMay disobeyed anything that day.

[Octafish]

60. The log puts 'NOT' in all caps, meaning Le May is not going where he was ordered.

What more do you want, Bolo Boffin?

Even better, think about the big picture. LeMay did a lot worse than disobey an order.

The general was insubordinate to the Commander-in-Chief.

Bomb Cuba! LeMay urged JFK Tapes: Secret tape recordings released this week show Gen. Curtis E. LeMay, the Air Force chief, urging President John F. Kennedy to bomb and invade Cuba. His failure to do so would be likened to Munich, the general said

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1996-10-26/news/1996300008_1_cuba-lemay-president-john-f

So, LeMay expressed open contempt for JFK when the president told him to stand down from launching an attack that easily could escalate to nuclear war. What else makes me sad is that he never was called to answer for his crime.

[Bolo Boffin]

61. There was no order. You are 100% wrong about that.

LeMay was always heading for DCA as the log plainly shows, and from all available information he was then going to be driven to ADW to meet with Zuckert. You can continue to believe exactly what you want, and no doubt will, but you and Kelly are misinterpreting this. And you are overstating what Kelly said - he says "disobeyed wishes" but you say "disobeyed an order," which this most manifestly was not.

The actual log, with the information that LeMay was always going to DCA:

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2012/02/andrews-afb-log-book-112263.html

1625 [4:25pm] 24197 Gen Lemay Dept Wairton 1604 ETA DCA 1715, Driver & Aide at DCA ETA charged 1710, Secy Zuckert Will Meet Lemay at ADW. (notified AC f t )

He was going to DCA where a driver and his aide was picking him up. A drive over to Andrews would be a matter of minutes.

As to the Munich comment, overwrought rhetoric in support of your preferred course of action is not insubordination. He was never called to answer for this crime because it was not a crime.

[Octafish]

62. Insubordination is a crime, Bolo Boffin.

Don't get mad at me for mentioning it. It's in the UCMJ. You can look it up.

[Bolo Boffin]

63. But what you are saying is insubordination is not insubordination, Octafish.

Don't get mad at me for mentioning it.

[Octafish]

64. Something to remember to ask when going over all this: Why was LeMay in Canada?

Is that a good place for secure, undisclosed locations or what?

[Bolo Boffin]

65. He was in Upper Michigan on a hunting and fishing trip.

Do you have evidence he was doing anything else, or just baseless speculation?

[Octafish]

67. No. I'm just wondering why he had to be picked up hundreds of miles away in Canada.

Northern Michigan was home to K.I. Sawyer AFB and Kincheloe AFB in 1963.

They're a lot closer to everyplace in northern Michigan than Toronto.

[Bolo Boffin]

69. Well, whatever floats your boat.

You haven't given me any credible reason to share your concern.

Toronto and Wiarton are in a straight line between Northern Michigan and DC. Maybe LeMay was saving the government some gas by meeting the C140 halfway. Maybe he figured he could get back to DC faster by meeting the C140 halfway. Maybe he felt time was of the essence since no one knew if the assassination was the first step in a full fledged attack on the country and he needed to be back in DC.

Until you give me any credible evidence to think otherwise, good luck with whyever you think it was. Unless you'd like to share your suspicions and theories on the subject.

[Octafish]

70. There's no need to theorize. The facts themselves are startling.

Personally, I greatly admire Gen. LeMay for his bravery during World War II. The guy did what he asked his men to do. (Looking back, I disagree with firebombing Japan's cities and civilian population. Same for the raids on Germany's civilians. And you know how I hate NAZIs and Imperialists, seeing how they were and are business partners with a certain class of wealth.)

Of course, I don't agree with LeMay's postwar leadership and politics. He seemed to want to spark World War III, after Krushchev blinked during the Cuban Missile Crisis:

In Washington most of us felt a sense of limitless relief. Not all the Chiefs, however: "Admiral (George) Anderson's reaction to the news," Robert Kennedy noted, "was, 'We have been had.' [font color="red"]General LeMay said, 'Why don't we go in and make a strike on Monday anyway.'[/font color]" "The military are mad," the President told me the next morning. "They wanted to do this. It's lucky for us that we have McNamara over there." The first advice I'm going to give my successor," he said just two weeks later, "is to watch the generals and to avoid feeling that just because they were military men their opinions on military matters were worth a damn." Still, for the moment, even the original hawk, Dean Acheson, was confounded. On October 29, he congratulated Kennedy on his "leadership, firmness and judgment," adding that the dénouement "amply shows the wisdom of the course you chose -- and stuck to."

-- "Robert Kennedy and His Times" by Arthur M. Schlesinger, page 524.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5L-EeG9djO4C&pg=PA524&lpg=PA524&dq=lemay+%22go+in+and+make+a+strike+on+Monday+anyway.%22&source=bl&ots=_HavpOAieK&sig=n3RlkX26I_j_LrgVHdMcRkPHwEQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mBF9UuuVPImjqgG2woDADA&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=lemay%20%22go%20in%20and%20make%20a%20strike%20on%20Monday%20anyway.%22&f=false

So, there's that, too.

[Bolo Boffin]

71. Hammer sees every problem as a nail: startling! n/t

[Octafish]

72. Which is why Dulles and Lemnitzer counseled all-out nuclear sneak attack on USSR

They, and the Hawks who believe nuclear war is winnable, if not survivable, said there'd be a war sooner or later, so let's get it over with while the odds are in our favor. They also said the optimum time to strike was Fall 63. Kennedy said, "No." The rest is history, from Chicago to Dealey Plaza to Vietnam to Baghdad.

[Bolo Boffin]

73. And so how did the all-out nuclear attack on USSR go after Kennedy was out of the way? n/t

[Octafish]

74. THE TAKE-AWAY: JFK stood up to the Cold War hawks who counseled war -- EVERY TIME.

The fact LBJ, McNamara and Earl Warren helped prevent its occurrence doesn't change the fact that the Hawk's first choice for solving the "Communist Threat" was all-out nuclear war.

[Bolo Boffin]

76. You mean they killed Kennedy to get a nuclear war and then they didn't get one?

Awkward.

[Octafish]

77. It looks that way.

The trail of warmongering -- interrupted here and there by a few Democratic administrations -- now going on 50 years isn't awkward, it's telling.

[Bolo Boffin]

82. It's not telling. It's not relevant.

There were many bad actors in the world. There were many people who would find a way to benefit from the President of the United States dying. This does not mean any of them did it.

Motive is the one of the most useless things to focus on in an investigation. Looking for motive trips you up. By deciding who has the biggest motive to do the deed first, you give yourself a stumbling block. You decide on your perp first for illegitimate reasons and then you go looking for evidence to justify it. It's counter to legal procedure, it's counter to logic, and it's a rich breeding ground for confirmation bias.

Lee Harvey Oswald came to the attention of the police when he murdered Officer Tippit. His absence had been noted at the TSBD already. A description of the shooter (from, among others, Howard Brennan, the person who saw Oswald shoot JFK) was sent out over the police radio. Tippit stopped Oswald and got shot for his thanks in front of several witnesses. Oswald then fled to the Texas Theater, where upon apprehension he tried again to shoot one of the officers.

He was quite naturally a suspect after that, and as the evidence mounted up, it showed that he was the sole shooter in Dealey Plaza. To date, there has been no credible evidence produced that he was a part of any conspiracy, although the HSCA was willing to allow that individual members of the Mob or the Cuban anti-Castro community may have been in one with him. No evidence precluded this either.

And to convict Oswald of the assassination, no one need prove his motive. Guilt is determined by credible evidence, eyewitness and circumstantial. Motive is useful to demonstrate intent: for example, when someone happens to run over a relative and their large debts and inheritance of the relative's money are revealed, a conclusion that the death was accidental may not be warranted.

But that's irrelevant in this case. Here the actions Oswald took were aiming a rifle at the President and firing three shots, striking him twice and killing him. Having established that, the only thing to demonstrate mens rea in Oswald would be showing he knew that by so doing, he would harm and/or kill Kennedy. Demonstrating his sanity would be the sole need there - not a detailed proof of any motive he might have. That's because motive is so often a matter of interpretation. It's almost useless in criminal cases.

It's the staple of movies and entertainment. But legally? Motive isn't all that. You can continue this quest to publish a motive for the MIC/BFEE killing Kennedy all you like. But in the end, the event isn't about Curtis LeMay in Canada or Michigan. It's not the CIA overthrowing leader after leader in Central and South America (something for which there IS evidence). In the end, determining who shot Kennedy comes down to who was shooting at him.

And Lee Oswald was the only person doing that on November 22, 1963.

[Octafish]

84. Well, that certainly is what Allen Dulles and J Edgar Hoover said happened.

Of course, Allen Dulles never spoke a word about the plans he and his underlings entered into to assassinate Fidel Castro with the Mafia in December, 1960.

Interestingly, that's the same mob of killers, dope dealers, gamblers and money launderers who J Edgar Hoover never acknowledged existed until one of his underlings got a tip from a New York State policeman in Appalachin in November, 1957.

So, their word isn't what I'd take unequivocally. I would take the word of the late President's brother, Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy on the matter. He called the Warren report "a shoddy piece of workmanship."

[Bolo Boffin]

94. You certainly do have an addiction to the genetic fallacy.

I don't care if that's what Hitler and Justin Bieber said that's what happened, either. If that's what happened, that's what happened.

[Octafish]

95. Hitler connects directly to Allen Dulles and John McCloy...

The fact is curiously missing from American history and any mention of the Warren Commission.



Here's a fact curiously missing from American history and any mention of the Warren Commission: Two of its members were directly responsible for the rise of post-war fascism. Allen Dulles, as a top official of the OSS and CIA, incorporated NAZI war criminals into the CIA from its founding. John McCloy, as High Commissioner for Germany, allowed Klaus Barbie and who-knows-who-else to escape justice. Of course, both men were also barons of Wall Street and Beltway Insiders, at the heart of the military industrial complex. We all can see what that means for the United States today.

[Bolo Boffin]

97. And Justin Bieber?

There are lots of very bad men and women in the world. Which of them was in Dealey Plaza on November 22 shooting at JFK?

All credible evidence points to Lee Oswald alone.

Here's a question you won't answer, but I'll ask it anyway: Was it common knowledge in 1963 that the CIA was trying to assassinate Fidel Castro? By "common knowledge," I mean would the average person on the street know this? Was it covered on the news? Did people talk about the wisdom of trying to assassinate Castro while they drank iced tea on the porch? Was this a hidden thing or was it well publicized in 1963?

[Octafish]

98. The CIA enlisted the Mafia to assassinate Castro in 1960.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Castro_Assassination_Plots

For some reason, disinformation artistes like to push the date back.

[Bolo Boffin]

99. And this was openly known and provable in 1960? Which was my question? n/t

[Octafish]

100. You asked about Justin Bieber, Bolo Boffin.

As for the CIA-Mafia assassination plots, from what I can tell, they were not public knowledge until Gerald Ford brought them up and Daniel Schorr reported it.

For some reason, disinformationists like to imply RFK was behind them. They started before his brother's election to the presidency.

[Bolo Boffin]

101. Yes, to introduce some much needed levity to this discussion. Nevertheless

you have finally answer my actual question: no, it wasn't known that the CIA was trying to kill Castro. And it would be a very natural assumption that Castro had been successful in retaliating for the several attempts on his life. That was what many in the government feared had happened. And that revelation in the immediate aftermath of the assassination would have been catastrophic for the government.

What we have evidence for, then, is the paramount importance that investigators not find evidence that Castro was responsible, whether that evidence was there to find or not. If Castro had done this and it had been revealed, it would have meant war. If Mongoose had been revealed, it would have meant the loss of international support and the open ire of the American public. They could have lost Berlin over this, an unacceptable loss.

And before that happened, the nukes would have started flying. You have said repeatedly that the perps did this to justify a nuclear first strike. But given the perfect causus belli to start one, finding out Castro had done this, the American government made every attempt to avoid seeing that - in short, to avoid nuclear war. Not to mention, the destruction of the Democratic Party in national politics, if these attempts to overthrow Castro by any means necessary had been linked up with the Diem coup. Mongoose had to remain hidden. And so it was until the next decade.

But Castro had not done it. The government pulled a reverse LAPD. They didn't have to frame OJ because the evidence would be sufficient to convict him as is - but Mark Fuhrman had already thrown that bloody glove. Just so, there was no evidence Castro had assassinated Kennedy because he hadn't. But they internally didn't go looking for what they thought they might find.

That was the government coverup. The only person responsible for the death of President Kennedy was Lee Oswald. But because of the very first JFK conspiracy theorists, the Johnson administration, 50 years later we are still arguing about it.

[LongTomH]

32. A recurring theme throughout Kennedy's term in office seems to be the Pentagon's 'desire' for a.....

.....pre-emptive nuclear strike! That showed in the Berlin Crisis and the Cuban Missile Crisis.

This also seems to be a recurring theme through the Reagan years, at least.

By the way, have you had a chance to look at the Google Books link I sent you?
http://books.google.com/books/about/To_Win_a_Nuclear_War.html?id=yOP2v_vy2GIC

[Bolo Boffin]

35. Yes, and once they offed JFK, they starting shooting nukes!

Wait...

[Octafish]

37. It looks like that was their plan in Dallas, too, doesn't it?

"General Lemnitzer stated that the assumption of this year's study was a surprise attack in late 1963, preceded by a period of heightened tensions." -- Col. Howard Burris

Did the U.S. Military Plan a Nuclear First Strike for 1963?

Recently declassified information shows that the military presented President Kennedy with a plan for a surprise nuclear attack on the Soviet Union in the early 1960s.

James K. Galbraith and Heather A. Purcell
The American Prospect | September 21, 1994

During the early 1960s the intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) introduced the world to the possibility of instant total war. Thirty years later, no nation has yet fired any nuclear missile at a real target. Orthodox history holds that a succession of defensive nuclear doctrines and strategies -- from "massive retaliation" to "mutual assured destruction" -- worked, almost seamlessly, to deter Soviet aggression against the United States and to prevent the use of nuclear weapons.

The possibility of U.S. aggression in nuclear conflict is seldom considered. And why should it be? Virtually nothing in the public record suggests that high U.S. authorities ever contemplated a first strike against the Soviet Union, except in response to a Soviet invasion of Western Europe, or that they doubted the deterrent power of Soviet nuclear forces. The main documented exception was the Air Force Chief of Staff in the early 1960s, Curtis LeMay, a seemingly idiosyncratic case.

But beginning in 1957 the U.S. military did prepare plans for a preemptive nuclear strike against the U.S.S.R., based on our growing lead in land-based missiles. And top military and intelligence leaders presented an assessment of those plans to President John F. Kennedy in July of 1961. At that time, some high Air Force and CIA leaders apparently believed that a window of outright ballistic missile superiority, perhaps sufficient for a successful first strike, would be open in late 1963.

The document reproduced opposite is published here for the first time. It describes a meeting of the National Security Council on July 20, 1961. At that meeting, the document shows, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the director of the CIA, and others presented plans for a surprise attack. They answered some questions from Kennedy about timing and effects, and promised further information. The meeting recessed under a presidential injunction of secrecy that has not been broken until now.

CONTINUED...

http://prospect.org/article/did-us-military-plan-nuclear-first-strike-1963

Here's the memo:

TOP SECRET EYES ONLY

Notes on National Security Council Meeting July 20, 1961

General Hickey, Chairman of the Net Evaluation Subcommittee, presented the annual report of his group. General Lemnitzer stated that the assumption of this year's study was a surprise attack in late 1963, preceded by a period of heightened tensions.

After the presentation by General Hickey and by the various members of the Subcommittee, the President asked if there had ever been made an assessment of damage results to the U.S.S.R which would be incurred by a preemptive attack. General Lemnitzer stated that such studies had been made and that he would bring them over and discuss them personally with the President. In recalling General Hickey's opening statement that these studies have been made since 1957, the President asked for an appraisal of the trend in the effectiveness of the attack. General Lemnitzer replied that he would also discuss this with the President.

Since the basic assumption of this year's presentation was an attack in late 1963, the President asked about probable effects in the winter of 1962. Mr. Dulles observed that the attack would be much less effective since there would be considerably fewer missiles involved. General Lemnitzer added a word of caution about accepting the precise findings of the Committee since these findings were based upon certain assumptions which themselves might not be valid.

The President posed the question as to the period of time necessary for citizens to remain in shelters following an attack. A member of the Subcommittee replied that no specific period of time could be cited due to the variables involved, but generally speaking, a period of two weeks should be expected.

The President directed that no member in attendance at the meeting disclose even the subject of the meeting.

Declassified: June, 1993

SOURCE: http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Essay_-_Did_the_US_Military_Plan_a_Nuclear_First_Strike_for_1963

Ha ha. Always with the plausible deniability. It is to laugh.

[Bolo Boffin]

39. So how did that late 1963 preemptive nuclear strike work out for the Pentagon?

After all, that is why they killed Kennedy, yes? To carry out a preemptive nuclear strike.

I guess the same conspiracy capable of hiding all evidence of their existence in JFK's murder was also powerful enough to cover up a nuclear strike on the Soviet Union, too.

[Octafish]

41. That would make an excellent avenue of inquiry, Bolo Boffin.

You should report back what you find.

[Bolo Boffin]

42. I'll get right on that. n/t

[Octafish]

38. Interesting collection of books, including Michio Kaku and Daniel Axelrod's...

"To Win a Nuclear War: The Pentagon's Secret War Plans."

There was a mindset at the highest levels, that nuclear war was survivable. As

"Look. At the end of the war, if there are two Americans and one Russian, we win!” -- Gen. Thomas Power, a man considered insane by his boss, Gen. Curtis LeMay.

SOURCE in PDF format: "On 'Winning the War'" by Robert Higgs: http://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_11_01_09_higgs.pdf

Thank you for kind reminder on the links, LongTomH! I knew there was something I had to do. One can read excerpts of "To Win a Nuclear War" online, only making me want to buy the thing. I'm so far behind...

[JDPriestly]

51. What Curtis LeMay had to say about things:

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/c/curtislema228406.html

Nasty guy.

[Octafish]

52. LeMay was Dixiecrat George Wallace's running mate in '68.

Seven years earlier, while still in uniform, what he said at a cocktail party (via Robert Morrow):

“At a Georgetown dinner party recently, the wife of a leading senator sat next to Gen. Curtis LeMay, chief of staff of the Air Force. He told her a nuclear war was inevitable. It would begin in December and be all over by the first of the year. In that interval, every major American city — Washington, New York, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles — would be reduced to rubble. Similarly, the principal cities of the Soviet Union would be destroyed. The lady, as she tells it, asked if there were any place where she could take her children and grandchildren to safety; the general would, of course, at the first alert be inside the top-secret underground hideout near Washington from which the retaliatory strike would be directed. He told her that certain unpopulated areas in the far west would be safest.” – Marquis Childs, nationally syndicated columnist, Washington Post, 19 July 1961

Very nasty.

[Myrina]

66. Sorry if this was asked/answered already ...

.... didn't Jacqueline do a taped interview that she then requested be locked away until the 50 year anniversary so her kids would be grown/safe etc?

Any info on that tape(s) being released this year?


Thanks!

[Octafish]

68. That was addressed at the Duquesne conference...

...One of the speakers indicated some of the material has been released ahead of schedule, thanks to Caroline. Others may be awaiting publication. I promise, Myrina, to post full details when I get them. In the meantime, info from The Atlantic in 2011:

On the Cuban Missile Crisis: She told her husband, "If anything happens, we're all going to stay right here with you. Even if there's not room in the bomb shelter in the White House. ... I just want to be with you, and I want to die with you, and the children do, too--than live without you."

On her husband's opinion of LBJ: "Jack said it to me sometimes. He said, 'Oh, God, can you ever imagine what would happen to the country if Lyndon were president?'"

[grasswire]

78. something that has always bothered me was...

.....the information that many top officials were on a flight to somewhere in Asia on the day of the attack. Why? At whose instigation?

Also, the info from Fletcher Prouty that in real time, newspapers elsewhere in the world reported Oswald as the killer before the assassination actually happened. Some kind of discrepancy there. Although I read Prouty's book a long time ago.

[Octafish]

80. Many in the Cabinet were over the Pacific, en route to Tokyo...

...Pierre Salinger can be heard on the Air Force One tapes calling for information about the President. Gosh, it breaks me up, hearing "Wayside" trying to restrain the anguish in his voice.

The Cabinet was heading for some important, but pre-planned shindig. J. Gary Shaw writes in his book Cover-Up, "that Secretary of State (Dean) Rusk, Treasury Secretary Douglas Dillon, Interior Secretary Stewart Udall and Labor Secretary W.W. Wirtz, as well as other administration officials like White House Press Secretary (Pierre) Salinger, were trapped in an airplane over the Pacific Ocean at such a critical time."

I agree with several others who have wondered why Salinger was not with the President in Dallas. He might've asked "WTF?" on seeing the motorcade and security arrangements in Dallas.

The thing that is most treasonous that few Americans know: Two weeks before Dallas, Secret Service in Chicago had busted up an attempt by a team of four shooters. Same schema, high powered rifles, skyscrapers, JFK in open car, making a hairpin turn. Knowing all that, the Secret Service allowed the motorcade in Dallas.



One of the agents who helped break up the Chicago plot was the first African American Secret Service Agent to serve on the White House detail, Abraham Bolden. He was personally selected by President Kennedy, whom he describes in this address at JFK Lancer.

[bobthedrummer]

81. Analysis Of Reports And Data Bearing On Circumstances Of Death Of Twenty-One Individuals Connected

With The Assassination Of President John F. Kennedy (The Library of Congress, Congressional Research Service 6-5-1978)
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/jfkdeaths.htm

Dorothy Kilgallen was listed as Death #11 in the link above. Below is a fascinating well-researched article by Sara Jordan that was published July 14, 2007 in Midwest Today.

"Who Killed Dorothy Kilgallen?"
http://www.midtod.com/new/articles/7_14_07_Dorothy.html

Interesting, to say the least.

[The Midway Rebel]

85. Interesting, yes.

Conclusive, not so much. In fact some of that list of 21 people really are a stretch.

[Logical]

87. She overdosed. Plain and simple. Happens all the time. n-t

[sabrina 1]

86. Fascinating OP, Octafish. I had never heard of LeMay before.

Your OPs are always educational and informative.

Completely agree as to why getting the full truth about the actions of our government.

[Octafish]

91. LeMay was very complicated fellow...a Hero and a Patriot...

...and probably crazy with the knowledge of what he had done. Here's an excellent profile -- hagiography, I think, is the word:

LeMay

Doolittle and Eaker said he was the greatest air commander of all time.

By Walter J. Boyne
Air Force Magazine, March 1998

There has never been anyone like Gen. Curtis E. LeMay. Within the Air Force, he was extraordinarily successful at every level of command, from squadron to the entire service. He was a brilliant pilot, preeminent navigator, and excellent bombardier, as well as a daring combat leader who always flew the toughest missions.

A master of tactics and strategy, LeMay not only played key World War II roles in both Europe and the Pacific but also pushed Strategic Air Command to the pinnacle of greatness and served as the architect of victory in the Cold War. He was the greatest air commander of all time, determined to win as quickly as possible with the minimum number of casualties.

SNIP...

Despite his own inclination to avoid it, LeMay became a celebrity as SAC's commander, in small part because he continued flying and setting records. More than anything else, it is important to emphasize that LeMay had been a simple good soldier at SAC. Recent sensationalist television presentations and revisionist articles have claimed that he authorized, on his own, provocative overflights of the Soviet Union. They have alleged that his intentions were to acquire justification for launching a preemptive nuclear strike. These claims are totally false, fabrications made up from partial truths, comments taken out of context, and-on occasion-deliberately literal interpretations of obviously sarcastic remarks.

SNIP...

LeMay found himself caught in an impossible situation when he became Chief on June 30, 1961, for he did not understand his leaders and they did not appreciate his experience as a warrior. The new civilian authority, led by President John F. Kennedy and Defense Secretary Robert S. McNamara, adopted a policy of "flexible response" advocated by the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Army Gen. Maxwell D. Taylor.

To a significant degree, flexible response led the US into a ground war in Southeast Asia; it made no sense to LeMay. His advice on not entering combat in Southeast Asia was ignored, and most galling of all, once combat began, his advice on how to win the war was ignored as well. Later, he noted that the US dropped 502,000 tons of bombs on Japan and won the war. In Southeast Asia, the US dropped 6,162,000 tons of bombs (mostly on our ally, South Vietnam) and lost the war.

The difference was that in Japan, LeMay chose the targets, and in Vietnam, McNamara and President Lyndon B. Johnson did.

His inability to deal with the Kennedy and Johnson administrations filled his years as Chief with frustration. LeMay believed in civilian control but also believed that civilian control of the military implicitly required careful consideration of the military's advice on military matters. He particularly resented McNamara's continual use of "military" rationale to explain decisions that he made based only on quantitative analysis.

SNIP...

Gen. David Jones, former USAF Chief of Staff and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was once LeMay's aide and pilot. He has related how, many years later, in Orlando, Fla., in a gathering of retired generals, LeMay was asked why he had run with Wallace. LeMay was silent, then replied that he despised Wallace's policies and would never have run with him if he thought he had a chance at winning. He did, however, believe that the Democratic nominee for President, Hubert Humphrey, would be disastrous for the country's defenses if elected. Thus, according to LeMay, he ran with Wallace, against all his desires, simply to help take votes away from Humphrey.

CONTINUED...

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/1998/March%201998/0398lemay.aspx

So, the idea of him going against his civilian commander-in-chief is pretty revolting. The thing is, what was LeMay hearing from the others at the top of the secret heap? That Kennedy was a commie? A sexual deviant? A drug user? We don't know. We do know that some at the top of the secret heap have done a lot to obstruct justice. We also know LeMay did not care for leadership as envisioned by Liberal Democrats.

[warrior1]

89. Why did Jack Ruby kill Oswald?

[Octafish]

92. That is a very important question.

One aspect about it that has gotten near-zero press is the connection between Ruby and CIA.

In the late 1950s, Ruby helped CIA arm Fidel Castro's revolutionaries.

Gunrunner Ruby and the CIA

by Lisa Pease

"They're going to find out about Cuba.
They're going to find out about the guns,
find out about New Orleans,
find out about everything."

CONTINUED...

http://www.ctka.net/pr795-ruby.html

PS: I plan on detailing what Lisa Pease said at Duquesne in a future thread. She is one of the most profound -- and kind -- people I've ever met.

[Oilwellian]

93. A very clear example of info tampering

Why would they withhold this seemingly mundane information about LeMay's whereabouts, and then find he later lied about it in his biography? Very curious, indeed.

[Octafish]

104. CNN Failed to Credit Bill Kelly's role in their report on the Air Force One tapes.

More JFK denialism: CNN fails to credit source for Air Force One tape story

Jefferson Morley
November 16, 2013

Picking up on a story first reported in JFK Facts, CNN reporter Jake Tapper aired dramatic conversations from the reconstituted Air Force Once tapes from November 22, 1963, capturing the real-time reaction of U.S. government officials as the news spreads that President Kennedy had been shot in Dallas.

But Tapper’s otherwise compelling report also illuminates the unfortunate power of JFK denialism in major news organizations.

JFK denialism is the impulse to deny or avoid the troubling facts of JFK’s assassination in the service of presenting a reassuring narrative about the causes of the murder of the president.

SNIP...

Tapper didn’t succumb to JFK denialim entirely. He recognized the AIr Force One tapes story is “an unflinching look at history unfolding.” He rightly highlights the role of audio expert Ed Primeau in making the recording audible. And he let Primeau explain one of the most important facts about the Air Force One tape: It has been edited out of a longer tape that has never been heard.

“Whoever created the tapes had certain parts of the conversation they didn’t want anyone to hear,” Primeau says.

CONTINUED...

http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/news/more-jfk-denial-cnn-fails-to-credit-source-for-air-force-one-tape-story/

[YoungDemCA]

96. Alan Moore (author of V For Vendetta) on conspiracy theories...

The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is, that it is not the Jewish banking conspiracy or the grey aliens or the 12 foot reptiloids from another dimension that are in control. The truth is more frightening, nobody is in control. The world is rudderless.

-from "The Mindscape of Alan Moore (2003)

[Octafish]

105. How many JFK assassination books has he read?

Last edited Wed Nov 20, 2013, 04:55 PM - Edit history (3)

Is he familiar with any of these?

Rush to Judgment -- Mark Lane

Accessories After the Fact -- Sylvia Meagher

On the Trail of the Assassins -- Jim Garrison

Whitewash -- Harold Weisberg

The Echo From Dealey Plaza -- Abraham Bolden

Plausible Denial -- Mark Lane

Spy Saga -- Philip Melanson

Treachery in Dallas -- Walt Brown

The Man Who Knew Too Much -- Dick Russell

JFK and Vietnam -- John M. Newman

Deep Politics and the Death of JFK -- Peter Dale Scott

Oswald and the CIA -- John M. Newman

The Last Investigation -- Gaeton Fonzi

Destiny Betrayed: JFK, Cuba, and the Garrison Case -- James DiEugenio

Deadly Secrets -- Warren Hinckle and William Turner

Act of Treason -- Mark North

JFK -- Fletcher Prouty

Not in Your Lifetime -- Anthony Summers

Crossfire -- Jim Marrs

High Treason -- Harrison Edward Livingstone and Robert J. Groden

High Treason 2 -- Harrison Edward Livingstone

The Killing of a President -- Robert J. Groden

Coup d'Etat in America -- Alan J. Weberman and Michael Canfield

First Hand Knowledge: How I Participated in the CIA-Mafia Murder of President Kennedy -- Robert D. Morrow

Who Killed JFK? -- Carl Oglesby

Brothers -- David Talbot

A Farewell to Justice -- Joan Mellen

Family of Secrets -- Russ Baker

Breach of Trust -- Gerald D. McKnight

Our Man in Mexico: Winston Scott and the Hidden History of the CIA -- Jefferson Morley

Perils of Dominance: Imbalance of Power and the Road to War in Vietnam -- Gareth Porter

JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters -- James Douglass

The Last Word -- Mark Lane


===-- HAVE NOT READ THESE, BUT PLAN TO


Nexus: The CIA and Political Assassination -- Larry Hancock

Crime and Cover-Up -- Peter Dale Scott

JFK vs. CIA: The Central Intelligence Agency's Assassination of the President -- Michael Calder