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louis-t

(23,266 posts)
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 02:44 PM Nov 2013

Fla. teacher suspended for forcing 4th-grader to participate in Pledge of Allegiance

Anne Daigle-McDonald, a teacher at Explorer K-8 School in Spring Hill, Fla., made the student, a Jehovah's Witness, place his hand over his heart during the Sept. 11 pledge, according to a report by the Tampa Bay Times. (Jehovah's Witnesses are forbidden from worshiping objects — including the American flag.) When he resisted, she said, "You are an American, and you are supposed to salute the flag," the boy told a school administrator.

According to several students, Daigle-McDonald admonished the class the following day. "In my classroom, everyone will do the pledge; no religion says that you can't do the pledge," she said. "If you can't put your hand on your heart, then you need to move out of the country."

It's not the first time the Pledge of Allegiance has been at the center of a controversy in Hernando County. Last year, a high school student was suspended for three days for confronting a classmate wearing a traditional Muslim headscarf who she said did not stand for the pledge.

"Take that thing off your head and act like you're proud to be an American," the girl said, according to a teacher who witnessed the confrontation.


Florida teabaggery in all its glory.

http://news.yahoo.com/teacher-pledge-of-allegiance-us-160820504.html

41 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Fla. teacher suspended for forcing 4th-grader to participate in Pledge of Allegiance (Original Post) louis-t Nov 2013 OP
And yet, she probably hates our President ProudToBeBlueInRhody Nov 2013 #1
Indeed. n/t earthside Nov 2013 #2
Most likely...imagine humiliating a 9-year-old joeybee12 Nov 2013 #3
My 6th grader just went through this last week. giftedgirl77 Nov 2013 #4
Do they still say 'under God" there? i'm almost 50 and i remember when we stopped saying the under okaawhatever Nov 2013 #12
Since when have schools altered the PoA? WinkyDink Nov 2013 #13
When I was a kid we used to say "one nation, under God, indivisible..." at some point, I remember I okaawhatever Nov 2013 #16
Oh yeah... giftedgirl77 Nov 2013 #20
Why say a pledge if you have no idea what the country stands for, Ms. McDonald? sinkingfeeling Nov 2013 #5
yeap! penultimate Nov 2013 #8
I remember getting really angry at a jerk who burned a flag Warpy Nov 2013 #21
The teacher has NO legal right to require it. That's been the law for decades. duffyduff Nov 2013 #23
Tell Florida Peregrine Nov 2013 #34
Most of my teachers let it pass when I was a kid. hunter Nov 2013 #6
Fucking authoritarians. Sick sick people. Rex Nov 2013 #7
"I was talking about pledging allegiance to our country" dballance Nov 2013 #9
West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette starroute Nov 2013 #10
So naturally, after requiring a Nazi salute, they decided louis-t Nov 2013 #14
Didn't see your post and had linked the same thing. duffyduff Nov 2013 #25
Nobody should be pledging allegiance to a flying red white and blue piece of cloth. The gov't should Dash87 Nov 2013 #11
We don't so force; it is illegal to so force in public schools. That is why this teacher is in Dutch WinkyDink Nov 2013 #15
It shouldn't even be a classroom activity. Dash87 Nov 2013 #18
I wouldn't say it "promotes" religion. louis-t Nov 2013 #31
Why do you hate Richard Stands? :-) WinkyDink Nov 2013 #36
a pledge that is coerced and not voluntary loses all meaning. scheming daemons Nov 2013 #17
Astonishing that people can't understand that simple truth. (nt) Posteritatis Nov 2013 #30
In my 64 years on this planet I have never uttered the words 'under god' while saying the... Tikki Nov 2013 #19
You cannot do that. I can't believe any teacher doesn't know the law about this. n/t duffyduff Nov 2013 #22
You don't know the law Peregrine Nov 2013 #33
FL doesn't know the law, as that sort of thing was ruled unconstitutional decades ago. (nt) Posteritatis Nov 2013 #35
ILLEGAL. WinkyDink Nov 2013 #37
That pesky first amendment again. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #24
Nekkid boobeez and their assault on our good patriotic youth! NuclearDem Nov 2013 #38
I fudged the "Under God" part of the Pledge daily by the time I was 9. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #40
I had a JW classmate in elementary school prole_for_peace Nov 2013 #26
Me too teenagebambam Nov 2013 #28
Big no-no! longship Nov 2013 #27
A teacher did that in my country school (OK) yellerpup Nov 2013 #29
Florida law requires every student to recite the pledge Peregrine Nov 2013 #32
"CAN OPT OUT = "DOES NOT REQUIRE." WinkyDink Nov 2013 #39
I don't think you can force someone to do that davidpdx Nov 2013 #41
 

giftedgirl77

(4,713 posts)
4. My 6th grader just went through this last week.
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 03:04 PM
Nov 2013

He refused to stand, when his teacher asked him why he told her my mother & I talked about it & since we don't believe in god I have decided I don't want to participate. She then told my son he should be ashamed of himself & that he is disrespecting the country & the principl's rules.

Needless to say the next morning I was in the principal's office. The teacher had sent & email to her saying she was going to force him to stand, instead she ended up apologizing in front of the entire class.

okaawhatever

(9,457 posts)
12. Do they still say 'under God" there? i'm almost 50 and i remember when we stopped saying the under
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 04:46 PM
Nov 2013

God portion in the pledge of allegiance. (for schools) Have the school systems started saying that again?

okaawhatever

(9,457 posts)
16. When I was a kid we used to say "one nation, under God, indivisible..." at some point, I remember I
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 04:58 PM
Nov 2013

was living in California (around 1971-1972 my dad was Air Force) they dropped the "under God" and we said "one nation, indivisible".

The pledge was initially written by a Baptist preacher and it didn't include under God. That wasn't added until the 1950's. Dropping it makes sense anyway.

 

giftedgirl77

(4,713 posts)
20. Oh yeah...
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 05:39 PM
Nov 2013

Mind you we live in SC. Apparently he has started his own little revolution, as of today number 4 has refused to stand.

The first couple of days weren't easy for him but he doesn't take shit from anyone so he took it in stride.

penultimate

(1,110 posts)
8. yeap!
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 03:55 PM
Nov 2013

Last edited Wed Nov 6, 2013, 06:19 PM - Edit history (1)

It's like those people who get all pissy about the right to burn the flag. You don't have want to burn the flag or even support it being (I personally think burning flags is teh dumb), but trying outlaw it goes against what this country is supposed to stand for. Same goes for not wanting to say the pledge of allegiance. Instead of trying to force the girl to say it, she could have explained why she feels the need to say the pledge and then asked the girl to explain why she doesn't want to say it. It could have been an interesting learning opportunity on both sides.

Warpy

(111,124 posts)
21. I remember getting really angry at a jerk who burned a flag
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 06:12 PM
Nov 2013

during an antiwar demonstration since it was such a fucking stupid tactic that drew nothing but blowback. I wondered audibly if he was the government stooge sent to spy on us and discredit us. He slunk away, never to be seen again, so I guess I outed him.

 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
23. The teacher has NO legal right to require it. That's been the law for decades.
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 06:15 PM
Nov 2013

They teach about this USSC case, which overruled a previous ruling, in introductory education courses:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette#Subsequent_history


We are talking about a case 70 YEARS old.

hunter

(38,301 posts)
6. Most of my teachers let it pass when I was a kid.
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 03:42 PM
Nov 2013

My mom was a Jehovah's Witness until they kicked her out because she couldn't stay out of politics. (This wasn't the first or last church my mom's been in trouble with. It's not in my mom's blood to "respect authority." That's how her ancestors ended up as ranchers in the Wild West where certain authorities couldn't imprison them or shun them for thought crimes and heresies.)

Anyways, I already had the aura of a "weird" little kid. Me not standing up or saying the pledge was just another one of my oddities.

One embarrassing incident was a teacher who used me as an example of religious freedom in the U.S.A.. She may have meant well but everyone in the class was looking at me and it made me want to disappear. Usually I just ran off in situations like that, right out the door, but I managed to stay in my seat long enough that she recognized my discomfort, distracted the class with something else, and that was the end of it.

I hope this teacher in Florida learns something. If not she should be fired. Getting fired under those circumstances would probably greatly increase her chances for getting hired at some horrible "tea party" private school where she might be happier.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
7. Fucking authoritarians. Sick sick people.
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 03:46 PM
Nov 2013

DON'T do what they say and you might get killed! This kid is lucky.

 

dballance

(5,756 posts)
9. "I was talking about pledging allegiance to our country"
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 04:13 PM
Nov 2013

"I was talking about pledging allegiance to our country," Daigle-McDonald told a district official. "And if you don't want to pledge to our country, you should go to your home country."

Well that makes it so much better.

Did she get her "values" from a Hitler Youth campaign and what if the US IS my home country and I don't want to recite a stupid pledge? Where should I be going home to?

starroute

(12,977 posts)
10. West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 04:39 PM
Nov 2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_vs._Barnette

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), is a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States holding that the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protected students from being forced to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school. The Court's 6-3 opinion, delivered by Justice Robert H. Jackson, is remembered for its forceful defense of free speech and constitutional rights generally as being placed "beyond the reach of majorities and officials."

It was a significant court victory won by Jehovah's Witnesses, whose religion forbade them from saluting or pledging to symbols, including symbols of political institutions. However, the Court did not address the effect the compelled salutation and recital ruling had upon their particular religious beliefs, but instead ruled that the state did not have the power to compel speech in that manner for anyone. . . .

The Board of Education on January 9, 1942, adopted a resolution containing recitals taken largely from the Court's Gobitis opinion and ordering that the salute to the flag become "a regular part of the program of activities in the public schools," that all teachers and pupils "shall be required to participate in the salute honoring the Nation represented by the Flag; provided, however, that refusal to salute the Flag be regarded as an Act of insubordination, and shall be dealt with accordingly." The resolution originally required the "commonly accepted salute to the Flag" which it defined. Objections to the salute as "being too much like Hitler's" were raised by the Parent and Teachers Association, the Boy and Girl Scouts, the Red Cross, and the General Federation of Women's Clubs. Some modification appears to have been made in deference to these objections, but no concession was made to Jehovah's Witnesses. What was required after the modification was a "stiff-arm" salute, the saluter to keep the right hand raised with palm turned up while the following is repeated: "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Failure to comply was considered "insubordination" and dealt with by expulsion. Readmission was denied by statute until the student complied. This expulsion, in turn, automatically exposed the child and their parents to criminal prosecution; the expelled child was considered "unlawfully absent" and could be proceeded against as a delinquent, and their parents or guardians could be fined as much as $50 and jailed up to thirty days.


 

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)
25. Didn't see your post and had linked the same thing.
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 06:19 PM
Nov 2013

It has been the law for DECADES.

However, I have known teachers to actually pull this garbage.

I have also seen teachers violate Title IX repeatedly.

Dash87

(3,220 posts)
11. Nobody should be pledging allegiance to a flying red white and blue piece of cloth. The gov't should
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 04:44 PM
Nov 2013

pledge allegiance to its people.

We shouldn't be forcing kids to recite words they don't know the meaning of, and we certainly shouldn't use it as an indirect way to demand that everybody be a Christian.

 

WinkyDink

(51,311 posts)
15. We don't so force; it is illegal to so force in public schools. That is why this teacher is in Dutch
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 04:55 PM
Nov 2013

Dash87

(3,220 posts)
18. It shouldn't even be a classroom activity.
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 05:08 PM
Nov 2013

There's nothing "American" about the pledge of allegiance.

1 - It promotes a religion, contradictory to the Constitution.

2 - It is an oath of blind allegiance

3 - We make kids who are too young to question the pledge say it, and it's implied in most schools that they have to. Doesn't matter if it's illegal or not - most schools quietly make it a mandatory activity.

louis-t

(23,266 posts)
31. I wouldn't say it "promotes" religion.
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 07:32 PM
Nov 2013

The religious wackos forced adding "under God" in the '50s. It also asks you to pledge allegiance to your country. Nothing wrong with that. It doesn't say "blind allegiance", you added that part. It also should be required that teachers discuss what it means with their classes.

Tikki

(14,549 posts)
19. In my 64 years on this planet I have never uttered the words 'under god' while saying the...
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 05:14 PM
Nov 2013

Pledge of Allegiance. No one ever called me on it and I never really felt like I should make
people around me aware of it either.

I keep the cadence and tone and volume with the crowd and just skip over those words
and get back into it to finish the pledge…

Maybe it's just where I have lived but no one seems worried about how others express
their degree of patriotism.

Tikki


Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
24. That pesky first amendment again.
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 06:17 PM
Nov 2013

Not only is it responsible for all the nekkid boobeez on teh internet (and the subsequent, dangerous erotoxin levels) but now this.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
40. I fudged the "Under God" part of the Pledge daily by the time I was 9.
Thu Nov 7, 2013, 12:25 AM
Nov 2013

I knew I was an Atheist.

Didn't discover I liked teh nekkind booberz until a few years later, though.

Somehow I still haven't repented for either of those sins. Many Haz Sad

prole_for_peace

(2,064 posts)
26. I had a JW classmate in elementary school
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 06:25 PM
Nov 2013

and she used to leave the room and stand in the hall when we said the pledge each morning. I never found out if the school made her do it so it wouldn't give the rest of use ideas if she sat through it or if it was her family's decision.

longship

(40,416 posts)
27. Big no-no!
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 06:33 PM
Nov 2013

I am an atheist, but forcing a JW to say the pledge is just plain wrong headed from any perspective.

She should have been suspended. The school did the right thing here.

As a HS teacher in CA, I never once said the pledge. Nobody said a word about it. Nor should they have. The only thing I required was that students could stand and say it if they wanted or could sit quietly. I stood silently.

yellerpup

(12,252 posts)
29. A teacher did that in my country school (OK)
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 06:36 PM
Nov 2013

when I was in the 5th grade. Grades 4-8 were all taught in the same room. An eighth grade boy refused to say the pledge and the teacher berated him, called him Communist, and ridiculed him down to nothing. He never came back to school; he just worked the farm with his dad.

Peregrine

(992 posts)
32. Florida law requires every student to recite the pledge
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 07:45 PM
Nov 2013

Only the parent, not the student, can opt out.

And remember the JWs lost the last time they took it to the Supreme Court.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
41. I don't think you can force someone to do that
Thu Nov 7, 2013, 01:03 AM
Nov 2013

But as someone pointed out, it is possible to say it without "under God"

Maybe you could just add the words "underwear".

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