Kerry gives Netanyahu a well-deserved diplomatic slap in the face

[Zeke L Brimstone]

From The Times of Israel:

On Wednesday, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told his old friend John Kerry in Jerusalem that he was concerned about the peace process, and asked the visiting US secretary of state to “steer [the Palestinians] back to a place where we could achieve the historical peace that we seek.” John Kerry quickly responded by lauding both sides’ “good faith,” and said he was “very confident” the negotiations would succeed.

But on Thursday, he loosened the diplomatic straitjacket, and we all got a much better look at what John Kerry really thinks about progress — and blame — in the new peace effort he worked so strenuously to revive a little over three months ago. He turned directly to the Israeli and Palestinian peoples and showed them rather more of his true colors. To the prime minister, it is safe to assume, they did not look particularly blue-and-white.

For the first time since he managed to restart the talks in July, Kerry dropped his statesman-like public impartiality, and clearly spoke from the heart — and what emerged were a series of accusations that amounted to a forceful slap in the face for Netanyahu. It was a rhetorical onslaught that the prime minister cannot have expected and one he will not quickly forget.

In an extremely unusual joint interview with Israel’s Channel 2 and the Palestinian Broadcasting Corporation, a very frustrated Kerry basically blamed the Israeli government for stealing the Palestinians’ land and the Israeli public for living in bubble that prevents them from caring much about it. If that wasn’t enough, he railed against the untenability of the Israel Defense Forces staying “perpetually” in the West Bank. In warning that a violent Palestinian leadership might supplant Mahmoud Abbas if there was not sufficient progress at the peace table, he appeared to come perilously close to empathizing with potential Palestinian aggression against Israel.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/frustrated-kerrys-peace-critique-a-heavy-slap-in-netanyahus-face/

Hey, Bibes, when you go into the bloody OVAL OFFICE and lecture the President of the United States, do not bitch and whine when it comes back to bite you in the arse, you racist thug!

[Zeke L Brimstone]

1. At least four (presumably American) DUers recommended this

I hope that of you courageous Yanks are allowed to remain on this site, something I rather suspect shall not be true in my case.

[LuvNewcastle]

5. I don't see why they would ban you for posting this.

They might move it to the I/P forum, but it really needs to be in GD because it's such big news. As long as your behavior isn't out of line, you should be fine.

[Zeke L Brimstone]

12. I hope that you're correct, sir

But I never underestimate the Power of PC.

[elleng]

60. The points made in the article

and by Sec. Kerry sure as hell should be 'PC.'

Welcome.

[DonViejo]

127. Then you have little to zero understanding of what

"pc" is or truly means. Until this moment, I never "met" any liberal or progressive that didn't know the true definition of "pc." In my experience, it is only wing nuts and flying monkeys who throw around the "I'm not pc" line of BS. Sorry for you!

[Zeke L Brimstone]

128. Of course, sir

I hereby stand in awe of your brilliance.

[Ned Flanders]

40. I was banned for similar comments

My first attempt to join this site met with failure when I was immediately banned for making similar comments, as well as for pointing out that Israel is doomed to fundamentalist hell, what with the religious whack jobs doing their best to breed more of the faithful, while the secular types think about such things as the effects of overpopulation on a small nation that already is engaged in territorial wars. I didn't comment for, like, 10 years, that left such a bad taste in my mouth.

[karynnj]

72. What you just wrote is OCEANS away from what John Kerry said

His comments dealt with the issues that are fundamental to a peace agreement.

[aquart]

83. I feel awful about that.

Recommend any birth control to the Palestinians, btw?

[Enthusiast]

87. Sometimes crticism is essential.

Fundamentalist hell. Exactly. It's having an effect over much of the world.

[LeftishBrit]

55. American DU-ers would be banned for supporting their own Secretary of State?

Seriously - that is NOT going to happen!

From your flag I assume you're a Brit like me. Would you expect to be banned for recommending a speech by Ed Miliband?

[Blue_In_AK]

68. Number 155

[MADem]

101. The number is a couple of hundred now

And the headline is quite descriptive, and apt:

Frustrated Kerry’s peace critique a heavy slap in Netanyahu’s face

A patently bitter secretary of state asks why Israel keeps taking Palestinian land, and why the Israeli public doesn’t seem to care about it

[The Straight Story]

104. If ya wanna know how I feel on it, see my interview with UK's Harry Fear

&feature=youtu.be

[cali]

125. utterly ridiculous

I've posted plenty of posts along these lines and been criticizing Israel for years here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=50964

You think it takes courage to be critical of Israel on DU? what nonsense.

[Zeke L Brimstone]

2. Seven!

Wow!

[Barack_America]

61. 134.

That was me.

[LuvNewcastle]

3. Wow, is this for real?

If Kerry really said this, my opinion of him just got dramatically better. That's my opinion of the situation, pretty much down to the letter, and I can't believe he not only said this, but he did so publicly. It's about fucking time somebody did. I think most of the world feels the same way. Those settlements have to stop if there's ever going to be something resembling peace over there. In other words, Israel can't expect the Palestinians to do all the bending.

[Zeke L Brimstone]

6. Check the link, my friend!

As rich and aloof as John Kerry is, I do believe that even he can sense the anger rising toward the Israeli government and its meddling in other countries' affairs (especially yours).

[blm]

14. This has been Kerry's position for years. Corpmedia has NEVER been honest in its depiction

of Kerry because he showed them up as Reagan/Bush sycophants when he and a couple REAL investigative reporters started peeling back the layers of IranContra, BCCI and CIA drug running.

Anyone who HAS been paying close attention to these matters over the decades is UNSURPRISED by Kerry's eye-to-eye frankness with Bibi.

[karynnj]

35. The administration also refuses to let Saudi Arabia determine their ME policy

Kerry's trip has been eye opening as in most countries he has been trying to simultaneously tamp down their anger while defending US policies that they are against.

Obama's call at the UN that engaging Iran, resolving Syria diplomatically and getting an Israeli/Palestinian peace are his three highest foreign policy goals can be seen as a shift away from letting SA and Israel have big says in what our policy is.

Here is a link to a Gulf state source that speaks of how Saudi Arabia view things. It is interesting that they quote a Bush era ambassador against Kerry/Obama. http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/saudi-arabia/saudis-unconvinced-by-john-kerry-s-show-of-goodwill-1.1251842#.Un5l7s02A3I.twitter

[Fuddnik]

16. Maybe he's been spending time with Jimmy Carter.

Or Chris Hedges.

[Zeke L Brimstone]

39. James Earl Carter is a fine man!

[Whisp]

53. I've generally liked and respect Kerry for a while but

Last edited Sat Nov 9, 2013, 04:47 PM - Edit history (1)

this puts him in the Hero category for me.


and ty banksy

[LiberalEsto]

64. +1 nt

[Enthusiast]

88. This is one liberal that agrees with you.

But I want justice all over the globe. It ain't happening.

[99Forever]

4. Netanyahu is an authoritarian thug.

The brutal treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis shows the true nature of the ages old conflict.

[Zen Democrat]

7. Israel is better than Bibi. They can't throw him out fast enough for the rest of the world.

[LuvNewcastle]

9. I agree. Most Israelis are good people.

They just have an awful leader right now, and we all know what that's like. I hope their next one is ready to make a deal and they have a lasting peace.

[PCIntern]

13. Here's the deal favored by many DUers:

the Israelis cede all their land to the Palestinians and jump on ships and head for...anywhere else. And then, after they land there and cultivate and improve the region, they will be asked to leave again. This includes, but is not limited to, the planet Mars.

[FarrenH]

19. ...for a very peculiar definition of "many" n/t

[PCIntern]

20. Oh...there are enough

Can't fool me...I've been here WAY too long.

You know, the Israelis only get ONE failed war and then it is genocide for them. Sorry...but it is true.

thus...Never again!

[rudolph the red]

54. +1,000

[Vinnie From Indy]

79. Absolute hogwash!

Please tell me what country in the ME is going to tangle with Israel knowing that any existential threat to the country will be met with 200+ nuclear weapons the Israelis will rain down on them. Your breathless offering that Israel faces annihilation from a neighbor is nonsense. Not even the Mullahs in Iran would attack Israel with a nuke because they know that the resulting counter attack would be an extinction level event for Iran.

Your argument does not persuade.

[LuvNewcastle]

25. Well I don't know about anybody else, but that isn't how I feel.

The only time I go into the I/P forum is by accident. That place is pretty toxic. I haven't seen the issue discussed much in GD, so I really don't know anybody else's opinion about it.

I think that anyone who wants either the Israelis or the Palestinians to leave isn't very grounded in reality. Right now I would just like to see permanent borders drawn between Israel and the future Palestine and for both sides to stay out of the other's territory. Maybe one day they will be able to move freely back and forth without there being any problems, but I think that day is going to be a long time coming.

[Blue State Bandit]

27. To be clear, most settlers in the West Bank are foreigners paid to move there...

by Bibi's allies, Sheldon Adelson, and US Dominianists hell bent on convincing the Jews of the world to go back to Israel to bring about Armageddon.

It is sad that the Jewish people are used as such pawns, by "Us" as well as their own leaders, but that is what it is.

It's funny (not really) how the loudest cries of "Anti-Semitism" come from non-Semitic people.

This is a general statement, and not directed at you or anyone who's post I've read here... so far.

[PCIntern]

28. It is almost funny:

when the more moderate establishment was running Israel, all their Peace initiatives were vetoed by whomever and whatever entitites are REALLY behind the PA and associated groups. Rockets rained down upon kibbutzim and cities, and cafes in Tel Aviv were bombed. This was, unbelievably, NOT OK with the residents, so they voted this crowd in, which displeases some DUers, but in fact, you can go somewhere post-Shabbat without the coffee bar exploding, or the bus you arrived in being blown, along with its passengers, to smithereens. So, as they say in NYC about Giuliani and Bloomberg, "It's a lot safer to walk in the streets."

And, as we all know, all politics is local.

I rest my case.

[Blue State Bandit]

30. Rabin was not vetoed, he was assassinated.

[PCIntern]

37. Oh...so he'd still be in charge, eh?

right...I forgot...

[karynnj]

33. Add to that that a supermajority of American Jews favor the 2 state solution -

which Obama and Kerry are working for.

AIPAC has rarely represented the American Jewish population. It has supported right wing, neo con positions. The ONLY time it did not support official Israeli positions was when the more leftist parties were in power there.

[aquart]

85. "Foreigners"?

The Jews are pawns. The Palestinians are ...... (25 words or less, please)?

[Blue State Bandit]

112. Challenge accepted. Taking a few more than 25, because I sense an additude...

...and you posed 2 question; it's only fair.

Aliyah/Olim- The imigration of Jews to Israel.

Nefesh B'Nefesh Benefits of Aliyah- Financial assistance provided by Misrad Haklita (Ministry of Immigrant Absorption). You receive an initial cash payment at Ben Gurion Airport, followed by an additional wire transfer after you give Misrad Haklita your bank details. You will receive six monthly installments of Sal Klita, all of which will be transferred directly into your Israeli bank account. Singles receive approximately 18,069 NIS. A family of five receives between 55,740 NIS and 66,507, depending on the ages of the children.

Oh, and pawns... as well.

[greiner3]

69. "Here's the deal favored by many DUers:"

Dude, I was wondering when the Jewish Defense League spokesperson would appear.

I see it took all of 2 hours.

Dude, thank you for putting words in so 'many DUers'' mouths and thoughts in their heads.

Oh, wait, you meant to post this on Freeper.com.

[PCIntern]

73. DU Rules prevent me from properly addressing your post

How dare you...

My bona fides are beyond reproach here.

[demwing]

82. No commentary on your credentials

but there's not a single thing that's absolutely beyond reproach--here, or anywhere else.

[Enthusiast]

89. Beyond reproach is a novel concept...........nt

[Violet_Crumble]

95. That's blatantly untrue...

Most DUers support a two-state solution, which would result in an independent Palestine alongside Israel. A smaller number support one binational and democratic state encompassing what's now Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. The sorry few who turn up calling for Israel to not exist anymore (roughly the same numbers as turn up spouting that the West Bank and Gaza is part of Israel and the 'Arabs' can move somewhere else) are shown the door. See, there's this thing called the TOS that specifically states:

'Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion or lack thereof, disability, or other comparable personal characteristic. To be clear: This includes any post which states opposition to full equal rights for gays and lesbians; it also includes any post asserting disloyalty by Jewish Americans, claiming nefarious influence by Jews/Zionists/Israel, advocating the destruction of the state of Israel, or arguing that Holocaust deniers are just misunderstood.'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

I guess if someone were of the mindset that those who oppose the occupation and dare to utter any criticism of Israel for it are all pushing for the destruction of Israel, then there's nowhere at DU they can avoid seeing it. I guess they could find a refuge somewhere like this http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/

[JDPriestly]

97. Yes. Kerry is not quoted as having addressed this key issue posed by the Palestinians' stance:

That line of thinking reflects much international conventional wisdom on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict — the assumption that Israel could attain peace with the Palestinians if only it wanted to, but that it just doesn’t want to enough. Many Israelis, Netanyahu most certainly among them, would counter that Israel cannot impose terms on a Palestinian leadership that, among numerous other problematic negotiating positions, still demands a “right of return” that would constitute suicide for the Jewish state. Many Israelis, their prime minister among them, too, would note that Israel is only too aware of how easily the relative calm could deteriorate, and thus are wary of relinquishing territory to a Palestinian leadership that, relatively moderate though it may be, might not be in a position to retain power and honor any accord amid sweeping regional instability.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/frustrated-kerrys-peace-critique-a-heavy-slap-in-netanyahus-face/

Kerry is going to appeal to the moderates, the rational on both sides, I expect. And that is the right approach. The extremists on both sides should be disarmed, and the moderates on both sides can then make a peace that will improve all of their future lives.

[Violet_Crumble]

103. Did you reply in the wrong place? That doesn't seem to relate to what I posted...

If not, I can run on the different tangent. After years and years of watching the US pretty much absolve Israel of any responsibility when criticising the Palestinians, it's a change to see it happen in reverse....

[PCIntern]

108. Even at 4:15 AM

You're predictable. Nice try with the alert. I felt my post was actually rather amusing. But opinions vary.

Israel will always be there. I know exactly how that makes you feel.

Warm and fuzzy. Of that I'm certain.

[Violet_Crumble]

110. It's not 4:15, I didn't alert, and I don't want to see Israel destroyed...

Got any other imaginary stuff to fling around?

[PCIntern]

119. It was 4:15 for me

And you're "innocent"...

Your agenda is, and has always been, quite clear.

[JDPriestly]

126. We don't know what diplomats say when they close the doors and talk amongst themselves.

Jimmy Carter was president from 1976-1980 and negotiated with Egypt. That accord seems to have held up.

[Agony]

70. Yes, there are good Israelis, but who has ever heard of Rami Elhanan?

or Ghazi Briegeith for that matter? There are good Palestinians as well...

If these people can forgive and strive for peace, what the FUCK is Netanyahu's problem?

If you have never read Rami's story it is here with many others...
http://theforgivenessproject.com/stories/ghazi-briegeith-rami-elhanan-israel/

Cheers and hoping for sanity and Peace,
Agony

[hopemountain]

63. netanyahu is the exactly that: a thug

and is responsible for the ill will toward israel by the rest of the world. his arrogance, ignorance and disrespect of other peoples and governments have no place in these times if we are ever to have a peaceful world.

wake up, israel - get rid of this bully and replace him with someone who truly cares not only about jews and being a jew and one who respects other cultures and religions.

[loudsue]

8. Netanyahu is Israel's george w. bush. Even many Jewish DUers don't like him and his

war criminal attitude, even a little bit. The tea-bagger type Jews continue to put him and his ilk in office. I, for one, cheer for peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, as do millions and billions of people across the globe. It will NEVER come with Netanyahu and his goons in office.

Are there some terrorists in Palestine? Yes, of course, and those do not want peace. But it is the hard-line al qaeda-type, extremist & brainwashed, very small minority in Palestine who keep hurtling terror at the Israeli people, and THEY are the ones trying to prevent peace. They need to be treated as criminals and outlaws, and sought out by both parties.

It isn't Abbas' government and the everyday Palestinian that is trying to make war. They know they can't win a war against Israel, with war criminal Netanyahu at the helm or anybody else.

[northoftheborder]

17. check; well put.

[PCIntern]

18. you have got to be kidding...

you really believe that? that there are just a few hostiles?

wow. just wow.

No wonder a thread like this gets recced up the wazoo.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

23. "I, for one, cheer for peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians"

That's not going to happen as long as Israel refuses to sit down as equals.

It's been Israel and the US on one side of the table and Palestine alone on the other.

[JDPriestly]

98. Two attitudes must change. Israel must agree to sit down with Palestinians as equals but

the Palestinians have to give up their claim of a right to return.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

100. There are still people holding onto deeds and keys out of sentiment....

Even for buildings that don't exist anymore. Ever see a map of the "settlements" in the West Bank?

[JDPriestly]

107. They are no different from the many Jews who held keys and rights to properties all over Europe.

Some of them received monetary compensation for their losses.

How to compensate for lost property is something that must be negotiated. It's easily resolved if people really have keys and deeds and were never compensated for their losses.

As I see it, the problem is the Palestinians who claim the right to return but have no concrete proof of ownership of property in the past. It is hard to calculate or prove their losses and determine just compensation. It is also hard to know who actually sold their property to Jewish people at some point (and many may have done this). All of that can be negotiated.

Israel wants security. Palestine has thus far not be willing to negotiate that. We shall see how it turns out, but Palestinians cannot claim that Kerry does not understand the situation.

In my view, although Israel has the upper hand in military terms, negotiations really rest on the willingness and ability of the Palestinians to guarantee Israel's security under whatever terms are agreed to. Therein lies the rub.

Israel can be forced to comply with an agreement. Palestine -- not so much. And Israel cannot be expected to accept an agreement knowing it must comply but Palestine can do whatever it wants.

So Kerry is doing a good job. I trust that he will be just as tough with the Palestinians as he is being with the Israelis. Both sides have a lot of work to do.

I have said this on DU before. In the mid 1960s, I lived in the Alsace-Lorraine. That was an area that had been fought over by the French and Germans for a long, long, long, long time. The area was officially French, but the people there still spoke French and/or German and kind of a combination when I lived there. The two peoples were living in peace in spite of old grudges and injuries.

I hope that Palestine and Israel can work out their situation as the Alsace-Lorraine has. But I think it will take a very long time to achieve that. The two-nation solution can take many forms. But people need to be able to lead their lives in peace and in the present and let go of the anger of the past. As the Palestinians who lived in Israel at one time and the Israelis who remember Europe and the US as their homes gradually fade out of the picture, their children and grandchildren will approach the situation with new understanding. That is my expectation.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

123. The way I see it the US is blindly supporting a right wing theocracy that's a lousy neighbor.

[Violet_Crumble]

105. Why do they have to give up Right of Return?

That doesn't make any sense. There has to be a limited physical return accompanied by compensation for those who don't get to physically return. Right of Return is something that will be one of the things left till the end when it comes to real negotiations, if they ever happen, and it has to be resolved in a way that works for both Palestinians and Israelis. Saying they have to drop it isn't something that would work...

[JDPriestly]

109. Security. The Palestinians and Israelis might not be able to live in what is now Israel

in security and peacefully for quite some time. Palestinians who stayed in Israel are still there and vote, etc. If the entire area becomes peaceful and safe for everyone, who knows who will live where?

We fought with Mexico. Today, Americans can live safely in Mexico, and Mexicans can live safely in much of America, especially in California. That's the way things work. If you look at history, you realize that Scotland and Great Britain are two separate countries with the same language spoken very differently and have fought in the past. Nevertheless, the countries work together more or less now. Ireland and England have a very bloody history. The British nearly forced the Irish into starvation. And not so long ago, the two countries suffered a lot of violence and fighting between them or at least some parts of their populations. But now they are at peace. Peace takes time and work on both sides. That's just the way it is.

You never go home. You can try, but you never do. Take it from one who has tried.

[Violet_Crumble]

111. Right of Return means returning to the West Bank and Gaza as well as Israel...

I'm not seeing what reason there would be not to have a physical return of refugees to what will be Palestine. With Israel itself things are a bit different, and any right of return would have to be a symbolic one on a small scale of Palestinians approved by Israel to return.

I don't think there's going to be any end of the occupation in our lifetimes, but I'd be hoping that at some point in the future real Palestinian and Israeli leaders will emerge that will bring a peaceful resolution, and eventually the two countries will live side by side in peace. But that's a long way off...

[Spitfire of ATJ]

124. Contrary to popular belief, the white man didn't win California in a war and,...

....then run off all the Mexicans off to the south over the border.

Former Mexican Nationals VOTED for statehood and became US Citizens with the promise of rising above peasant status.

That worked out like the Indian Treaties.

[Enthusiast]

90. I get the exact same impression,

of Netanyahu.

I think the "American" hawks would like go along with Netanyahu to ramp up animosity ultimately leading to a war. I think this much is clear and I'm just a dumb guy in the Midwest. The rest of the world sees through this bullshit.

[malaise]

10. Good

Israel is nothing without American aid. Bibi will learn.

[Martin Eden]

22. The problem with American aid to Israel ...

... is that it's never contingent on Israel's good behavior. A hardline Israeli government can continue to build in the West Bank & East Jerusalem in contravention of official US policy, but the cash cow keeps giving.

When a US president can legitimately threaten to withhold US aid, then we will see results. Until then, it's just rhetoric.

But there would be a very high political price to pay for that domestically. AIPAC wields too much influence, and the RWers would excoriate the president for siding with Palestinian terrorists against our "biggest ally" and the only "real democracy" in the region.

[malaise]

26. Nothing is forever

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/08/hawks-iran-nuclear-deal-us-israel-middle-east
<snip>
Hawks squawk even before Iran nuclear deal is sealed


Hardliners in Tehran, hawks in Tel Aviv and Washington, nervous Saudis and their Gulf allies are all alarmed at the prospect of a nuclear deal between Iran, the US and the international community.

In the US, suspicions look likely to harden on Capitol Hill as the crucial details of the Geneva agreement, and especially any relief from sanctions, become clear. The White House has already had to urge Congress not to tie its hands in the talks with Iran.

Saudi Arabia, which has dramatically demonstrated its chagrin at Barack Obama's policies towards both Iran and Syria, kept silent on Friday. But no one has forgotten – thanks to WikiLeaks – King Abdullah's famous call to "cut off the head of the snake" in Tehran. Warnings this week that the kingdom may acquire its own nuclear weapons from Pakistan were a reminder – perhaps a deliberate one – of the high stakes being played for in the Middle East. The United Arab Emirates is also likely to be deeply unhappy about the beginning of a rapprochement between its powerful regional rival and traditional protector.

Israel's ill-tempered opposition – even before anything has been formally agreed – looks set to further strain its already tense relations with Washignton. "Netanyahu unwise to challenge US so openly/dismissively on possible Iran nuclear deal," tweeted Nicholas Burns, a former senior US diplomat. "Netanyahu's outburst was a serious tactical error." The Israeli prime minister has taken a hard line on this issue for years, so it is no surprise he is taking the news badly. It is still hard to imagine, however, that Israel would attack Iran – even if it has the military capability to do so alone – while a prolonged and internationally backed agreement is in place.

[Martin Eden]

44. In regards to Iran ...

... time is on our side.

Iran has a young population, most of whom support moderate reformist leaders. They want more personal liberty and like Western-style fashion & entertainment. The worst thing we could possibly do with Iran is be a party to a military attack that would outrage Iranian youth and push them into the hardliner camp.

Iran really should be our natural ally. The Iranians began a tradition of democracy, which we and the British crushed in 1953 in the coup that installed the repressive regime of the Shah. Iran, not America, is much more the aggrieved party in this relationship. Iran insists their nuclear program is for energy, not weapons, and our own intelligence agencies concur they stopped actively pursuing nukes a decade ago. If that is true, there should be a path forward to verify & monitor their nuclear program in exchange for lifting sanctions and building the economic and cultural ties that will eventually make us the allies that we should have been for 60 years now.

Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, is NOT our natural ally despite our close ties and military relationship. The autocratic royal regime imposes Shariah Law restrictions on society (especially women) and funds madrasa schools in the Islamic world that teach little besides the Koran and hatred of America. Protecting that regime with our military is an abomination that makes it easy to dismiss as sheer hypocrisy all our rhetoric about freedom & democracy.

We need some real American leadership to step outside the box that confines our foreign policy and geostrategic vision. We are where we are now because the Powers That Be and the MIC either want it that way or have been blinded by their own greed.

President Barack Obama was given the Nobel Peace Prize because the free world wants and needs America to be that shining city on the hill; because they had high hopes Barack Obama would bring about real change; and because he was not George W Bush.

I would really like to see Our President earn that Prize for Peace.

[jaysunb]

49. +1 n/t

[erronis]

80. Massad has long arms

Polonium has been a recent weapon of choice.

I fear for any US president that goes against the demands of the Israeli lobby.

[Martin Eden]

114. AIPAC, MIC, NSA ...

The Powers That Be.

How much REAL POWER does a president actually have compared to the entrenched monied interests and the National Security State?

I think most people understand the political price is too high for a politician to support cutting off aid to Israel if they don't stop building settlements in Palestinian territory. But as you pointed out, the price could be much higher than the end of a political career.

IMHO a president's course of action is much more constrained than most people think. I don't know if Obama wants to put real pressure on Israel, or stop propping up the Saudi regime, or curtail the domestic surveillance of the NSA, but I suspect he'd be shot down (figuratively and maybe literally) if he tried.

[Enthusiast]

92. But you are talking about what is righteous.

And that ain't never gonna happen. Because of the influence of the corporations that will benefit from war, the petrochemical industries and the like. You're speaking of a democracy.

[Martin Eden]

115. The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.

I don't know if MLK's vision is true, but I sincerely hope so.

What I do believe is the arc will not bend towards justice unless We The People do the bending.

[JDPriestly]

99. Agreed!

Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, is NOT our natural ally despite our close ties and military relationship. The autocratic royal regime imposes Shariah Law restrictions on society (especially women) and funds madrasa schools in the Islamic world that teach little besides the Koran and hatred of America. Protecting that regime with our military is an abomination that makes it easy to dismiss as sheer hypocrisy all our rhetoric about freedom & democracy.

[LeftishBrit]

56. It is certainly contingent on Israel's behaviour; whether what we would call their GOOD behaviour is

another matter.

Mostly they are bribed to buy American weaponry and support its military adventures. Glad to see that Kerry is exerting pressure in the direction of more peaceful actions rather than the reverse!

[Martin Eden]

58. When has the US ever cut off aid to Israel, based on their behavior?

Or even threeatened to cut off aid?

[whathehell]

11. Good -- It's about time. n/t

[mountain grammy]

15. Yes, I will recommend this post and why not?

My Jewish Mother always said "Israel, right or wrong" but she knew the danger of that sentiment having been around for WW2 and all. By the time she died in 1988, she was disappointed with Israel's policies.
I remember how hopeful and proud she was in 1978 when President Carter brought Begin and Sadat together at Camp David.
I have no doubt, if she was still here, she would agree with our Secretary of State and with your last statement. I do too.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

21. Funny how many Liberals blindly support the right wing government in Israel.

[seveneyes]

24. Funny how so many support those who refuse to recognize Israel as a nation

And support those who brainwash their children to hate and to follow in the steps of a messiah that impregnates nine year old children while slaughtering others with swords. There is too much hate going on between sides to support much of anything involving war. You don't have to go back very far in time to when all the countries surrounding Israel tried to wipe them off the map.

[karynnj]

31. False choice

Saying that the Likud position is wrong does not mean that one agrees with the worst of the Palestinians.

The majority position (as much as 80% in the only poll I know of) is for a two state solution - the very position that Kerry and Obama are working toward. J Street has substantial Jewish support and they support the effort being made.

There are other articles where Kerry's words are simply quoted - without the editorializing here. They were strong - and they needed to be. The day before - while Kerry sat next to him - Netanyahu tried to move the goal posts and to blame the Palestinians in advance for the failure of negotiations. He LIED that the Palestinians had agreed to the continued building of settlements. Kerry, as the lead mediator in a sense, had the responsibility to state that it was not true - and he did.

Kerry is speaking from his heart here when he speaks of the consequences of not having a peace settlements. If you think he went too far, do you know that a deputy Defense Minister complained that we should be speaking of Palestinian enclaves in Israel instead of Jewish settlements in the West Bank - essentially annexing the West Bank as part of Israel?

Many people have said that Israel must choose two out of the three things it is said to be - a Jewish state, controlling all the land, and democratic. It looks like some in the Likud wing are playing with ideas that threaten the last - rather than ceding the middle. At this point it is already hard to not see similarities between appartheid and Israel.

[seveneyes]

34. Controlling all the land

Maybe it's just me. When I look at a map and see the tiny speck that is Israel and all the land surrounding it which belongs to people with more in common with each other than with Israel. It's not like Israel lashed out of the blue and started taking over land. Everything they now hold was strategic in the game of war, which their many enemies started. I don't see the pressing NEED for Israel to shrink any more than their enemies need to expand.

[PCIntern]

38. +10000

"All the land" - wotta laugh. Do they mean All the Land which is the SIZE OF VERMONT? All THAT land?

Speck is right...a green speck, now. It wasn't beforehand...it wouldn't be for long if there were an 'after'.

[loudsue]

41. Seveneyes, so much of what you said is strictly Likud spin.

That "tiny speck" that is Israel .... that part is true. The other land belongs to people who are all vying for this or that from one another. This didn't start with Israel's enemies.... it started thousands of years ago. Israel has created enemies where it wasn't necessary to, and if they didn't have the biggest bully in the world protecting them UNCONDITIONALLY, they would have smartened up generations ago, and tried to be a little more conciliatory by this time in history.

Now, the real problem in the middle east is NOT Iran, where our media keeps trying to make people look....it is Saudi Arabia. Ruled by a handful of religiously oppressive people (women can't drive?), and that family making a couple of billion dollars PER DAY in oil revenues, owns as much of the United States and the rest of the world as is humanly imaginable. (And at least 6% of Fox News (links available, but not from me), and they own Rupert Murdoch, always have....no link, just observation.) Saudi Arabia hates Iran as much as Israel does. Don't try to simplify the situation in the middle east by making Israel the victim here. They make trouble for themselves....like it or not....but it is all historical and cultural....not just to the holocaust, but centuries well before.

It is a different world for ALL of us on this planet. We are either going to learn to get along, or we are all going to annihilate ourselves. Nobody is blameless. Nobody. Don't try to convince yourself that Israel is blameless, especially with the current government under what is their version of george w. bush/dick cheney/donald rumsfeld/henry kissinger.

[karynnj]

42. The Palestinians are a people too

Not to mention it is against international law to build settlements in the occupied areas.

As to Israel shrinking, Israel itself does NOT treat those areas as if they are Israel. If they are Israel, shouldn't the people living their have all the same rights and privileges given to people living in Israel proper? Including the ability to vote?

If you say yes, consider that Likud absolutely does not want that. It would mean that soon (or possibly now) Jews would no longer be the majority.

If you say no, what are you calling for -
- a state where half (or more eventually) of its people are disenfranchised and suppressed in many ways - unable to easily drive from one city to another - and unable in most areas to purchase homes or land.
- the mass expulsion to (who knows where) of all the Palestinians - freeing up the area for Israelis.

[progressoid]

45. " the tiny speck that is Israel"

If Israel is a tiny speck, what do you call something smaller than a tiny speck and getting smaller?

[LittleBlue]

46. Great, I'll come take your house

After all, it's just a tiny speck of land compared to Israel. Not even visible on a map.

The people like you, in your neighborhood, have plenty of land.

Nice logic.

[Violet_Crumble]

106. The territory being talked about is the West Bank...

Guess what? That's an even tinier speck than Israel.

I'm curious. Do you think Israel should retain the West Bank and continue to build settlements there?

[vaberella]

43. I think Israel is recognized as a nation. Just not a Jewish one, just for Jews.

The land was populated majority by Palestinian people and a common wealth of England. Historically it has passed hands under the control of Jews, Muslims, and Christians. Then it was systematically turned into a Jewish nation by a slight of hand by an England that either wanted to rid themselves of Jewish people or felt sorry for them post WWII. It sort of reminds me of what the American government did to Blacks and Native Americans when they got Puerto Rico. I don't mean to sound flippant but that was always my interpretation of how they went about helping the development of Israel.

Then we have the war that developed and Israel winning against roughly 5 nations. Fine. Now the Palestinians for the last few decades have been systematically victimized, I won't say the same has not been done to Israel. Because really the blame lies on both ends of the spectrum. However, as of late, Israel has been committing serious human rights atrocities against the Palestinian people which are UNDENIABLE.

And to comment on your last statement, "You don't have to go back very far in time to when all the countries surrounding Israel tried to wipe them off the map." And sadly you don't have to go back very far to a week or a few days to see the many ways that Israel is working to wipe the Palestinians off the map.

In any event, the issue is that the area has to find some peace because there has been continuous death and killing on both sides.

[JDPriestly]

102. Here is interesting information about what happened in the Truman White House with regard

to the partition that divided Israel from Palestine.

Truman was concerned that the Russians (the idea of a Jewish state in Palestine had originated among Russian Jews according to the article I am citing) were attempting to establish a foothold in Palestine by sending Communist Jews there. I quote:

Lovett still had not given up: “Indecent haste in recognizing the new state would be unfortunate for the very reasons that I mentioned on Wednesday. Please get the President to delay for a day or so. It is hard for me to believe that one day could make so much difference. There will be a tremendous reaction in the Arab world. We might lose the effects of many years of hard work with the Arabs. We will lose our position with Arab leaders. It will put our diplomatic missions and consular representa­tives into personal jeopardy.”

“Speed is essential to preempt the Russians,” I replied, and reminded him that he and Marshall had been expressing great concern that the Soviet Union might take advantage of indecision on our part to gain a toehold in the area. “And a one-day delay will become two days, three days, and so on.”

http://jcpa.org/article/president-truman%E2%80%99s-decision-to-recognize-israel/

Clark M. Clifford served as Special Counsel to President Truman from 1946 to 1950 and as Secretary of Defense in 1968-69 under President Johnson.

Richard C. Holbrooke served as Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs (1977-81), U.S. Ambassador to Germany (1993-94), Assistant Secretary of State for European and Canadian Affairs (1994-96), and U.S. Ambassador to the UN (1999-2001). He was the chief architect of the 1995 Dayton Peace Agreement which ended the war in Bosnia.

This is an account by an eyewitness to the discussions in the Truman White House prior to the recognition of Israel.

It is easy to second-guess the thoughts of historical figures. Truman wrestled with this decision to recognize Israel, heard both sides of the issue and decided for Israel.

I am quoting from a Jewish publication which I found by Googling terms.

Here is a summary of the same information from the Truman library for those who feel uncomfortable about the source of the notes from the jcpa.

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/hst/h.htm

[Spitfire of ATJ]

59. Put it to you this way....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/121897057

[Barack_America]

62. Seems there is a good amount of hatred coming from you. Nt

[dead_head]

65. What?

Why do people always have to exagerate and say bad stuff like ¨brain washing¨ Like there's no reason why palestinians woud be upset. It's cartoonish its like there's a super villain using palestians just to be villainous toward Israel.

As well, why say ¨impregnates 9 years old¨? How does that help? As if Judaism does'nt have weird stuff too.

[magical thyme]

118. you also don't have to go back to far in time to when Israel

wasn't even on the map. See, those arguments have a way of working two ways, don't they?

[totodeinhere]

48. Not every issue should be seen through the prism of right vs left.

And who really are the leftists and who are the rightists? Even with the present government in power Israel remains a European style center left country with universal health care, gay rights codified in law, an independent judiciary and many other similar virtues. Yet many of the countries surrounding Israel are fascist or border on fascism. So who really are the right wingers in this case?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

50. The SCAM has been the good Christians (USA! USA! USA!) bringing peace to the region.

[Violet_Crumble]

94. It's not confusing. Netanyahu is a bona-fide hardline right-winger...

Think Bush. Then yr getting the idea...

[totodeinhere]

122. Yes he is a hard liner on foreign affairs. But on domestic issues he supports

policies such as single payer health care that would be unthinkable in our country. On domestic issues he is to the left of most of our Democratic Party. So it isn't quite as straightforward as you indicate.

[bobGandolf]

29. Good for Kerry! Just watch the repugs jump on....

the Netanyahu band wagon. Of course their public criticism of our foreign policy is nothing new.

[Faux pas]

32. The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

Kudos John Kerry!

[LittleBlue]

36. Good. Now turn those words into action

Well said, John Kerry

[totodeinhere]

47. You did not make it obvious that the term "well deserved" was your own words and not the

words of the article you linked to.

[Zeke L Brimstone]

57. This is GD.....

...not LBN

[haikugal]

51. Thanks Kerry...it's about time!

Kick!! Thanks Zeke!!

[Whisp]

52. John Kerry appears to be a very brave man.

[AzDar]

66. K & R

[Blue_In_AK]

67. Netanyahu is a menace to world peace.

[KG]

71. 'steer back to a place where we could achieve the historical peace that we seek' =

we get to steal all the land we want.

[fadedrose]

74. When Hillary left her State position...

I saw her and Netanyahu together in some appearance somewhere, can't remember where or what the occasion was, but they drooled all over each other, he saying, "I hope to see you in a new position in the future, Madam Secretary. She beaming, smiled...and it was wink wink nudge nudge...

This is of course, paraphrasing, but anyone could have figured out what that was about.

What in the hell did she promise him if he wants her to be president? Scary.

I've seen so many posts in DU about how Mrs. Clinton never met a war she didn't like...

[bravenak]

75. I'm glad he said what needed to be said.

I'm tired of Bibi. Really cannot stand him. And yes, he is a racist thug.

[riverbendviewgal]

76. today 75 years ago began thief of the Jewish peoples home and property

Which led to millions of deaths and captivity.

I can not understand how israel can do what they are doing to the Palestinian people. Like building walls into the Palestine lands and blocking off well water from Palestinians.

I watched the Eichman trial in 1961 and felt such sadness for the jewish people. I can not understand what the Israel government now doing to the Palestinians in this time such aparthide .

[uponit7771]

121. +1

[c588415]

77. Way to go, Kerry!

We need to continue to support Israel, and at the same time, Israel needs to allow the Palestinians to have their own state.

[emsimon33]

78. Thank you for the post!

And welcome!!!!

[randome]

81. This DOES need to stay in GD.

Some of us don't have time for other forums and this is an important political change of pace.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[Mira]

84. How many times can I recommend this? n/t

[Enthusiast]

86. We don't like corruption and war mongering wherever it is.

Or, we shouldn't. Come on. When it comes to the Palestinian issue we should try to remain as neutral as possible. Just my take, fwiw. I can not accept an Israeli version of manifest destiny.

[King_Klonopin]

91. He is the Israeli Neo-Con -- a Judeo-Con, if you will (rim shot, please.)

Arafat and Rabin have been mentioned in the news recently.
I can't divine a person's motive or intent, but those two seemed
to be "willing", at the very least, to reach a peace agreement. Of
course, they were eliminated from the discussion -- just like Robert
Kennedy was.

An aggressive foreign policy stance (i.e. pre-emptive wars) justified
in the name of "self-defense" and "National Security" is surely a Neo-
Con philosophy. The folks on the receiving end of the policy, however,
tend to experience it as the provocative behavior of a bully. Might
makes right; makes tight ....

There are forces for good in this world, and then there are forces for
evil. These days, I believe the evil ones are winning.

[yurbud]

93. boo ya! Now if he could just act like he means it.

[Violet_Crumble]

96. Yep. There's talking the talk...

...but actions speak much louder than words, and the US has long followed up their words with actions like voting with Israel in the UN to oppose a Palestinian state being recognised...

[karynnj]

120. His actions on the peace negotiations have been strong and consistent

He does not have the power to force Netanyahu or the Palestinians to do anything - nor should he (or even Obama). His role is to try to get the two sides to see that there is a solution that will provided a better future for both sides than the one the status quo offers.

Even the normal tool of granting or withholding US money is not really available because of the unique status of Israel in the US. (Oddly coming more from Christians than from the smaller Jewish population.) In fact, I worry with Iran that the US Congress might actually listen more to Netanyahu than Obama.

Kerry is a diplomat and personally very very hard to get to respond out of anger. I think that he HAD to take issue with Netanyahu lying that Assad had agreed to settlements - something that undermines Assad and also allowing more settlements just makes things less solvable.

[sendero]

113. Just when I was losing all respect for Kerry..

... (over the bomb Syria bullshit) he goes and does something like this. Well, someone has to speak a bit of reality but I didn't think it would be him.

[karynnj]

117. You might even have to reconsider his role on Syria

What is very clear is that he was a voice against the US getting more involved in the civil war. It also was clearly not an accident that he was instrumental in creating a different way to respond to the use of chemical weapons. (Interesting that the left was so mad at him and Obama that they did not consider that Russia had never pushed this before and the right did not see it as a victory as they wanted to bomb the hell out of Syria - and were already complaining that what Kerry and Obama spoke of was too small and targeted to win the war for the rebels - something that was EXPLICITLY not the Obama administration's goal with the targeted attack.)

You might find his comments on Syria - made standing with the SA foreign minister - interesting. http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/saudi-arabia/saudis-unconvinced-by-john-kerry-s-show-of-goodwill-1.1251842#.Un5l7s02A3I.twitter (The link is to a Gulf States source - so this is from SA's POV which is interesting.)

What is clear is that September MAY be a point that we can look back at where US policy in the ME actually changed. May explain the anger of both SA and Israel.

[yellowwoodII]

116. Kudos to Kerry

I'm pretty tired of Netanyahu trying to call the shots. It's been going on for a long time.

[yurbud]

129. This fits an unfortunate theory I've had about Israel for a while: they can do no wrong while we

still need them and see military options in the Middle East as viable.

With the military option damn near dead, our government has to work harder to keep big dogs in the oil world happy.

Once the oil is gone, our government will give exactly zero fucks what Israel does to Palestinians, Palestinians do to Israelis or whether Saudi decides to become a communist nudist colony.

Israel's governments of various parties all include people smart enough to do this math, so I'm wondering what their endgame is.