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Sun Nov 10, 2013, 10:54 AM

Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?



OPINION
Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?


SAN FRANCISCO — EVERYBODY who knows me knows that I love cycling and that I’m also completely freaked out by it. I got into the sport for middle-aged reasons: fat; creaky knees; the delusional vanity of tight shorts. Registering for a triathlon, I took my first ride in decades. Wind in my hair, smile on my face, I decided instantly that I would bike everywhere like all those beautiful hipster kids on fixies. Within minutes, however, I watched an S.U.V. hit another cyclist, and then I got my own front wheel stuck in a streetcar track, sending me to the pavement.

I made it home alive and bought a stationary bike trainer and workout DVDs with the ex-pro Robbie Ventura guiding virtual rides on Wisconsin farm roads, so that I could sweat safely in my California basement. Then I called my buddy Russ, one of 13,500 daily bike commuters in Washington, D.C. Russ swore cycling was harmless but confessed to awakening recently in a Level 4 trauma center, having been hit by a car he could not remember. Still, Russ insisted I could avoid harm by assuming that every driver was “a mouth-breathing drug addict with a murderous hatred for cyclists.”

The anecdotes mounted: my wife’s childhood friend was cycling with Mom and Dad when a city truck killed her; two of my father’s law partners, maimed. I began noticing “cyclist killed” news articles, like one about Amelie Le Moullac, 24, pedaling inside a bike lane in San Francisco’s SOMA district when a truck turned right and killed her. In these articles, I found a recurring phrase: to quote from The San Francisco Chronicle story about Ms. Le Moullac, “The truck driver stayed at the scene and was not cited.”

In stories where the driver had been cited, the penalty’s meagerness defied belief, like the teenager in 2011 who drove into the 49-year-old cyclist John Przychodzen from behind on a road just outside Seattle, running over and killing him. The police issued only a $42 ticket for an “unsafe lane change” because the kid hadn’t been drunk and, as they saw it, had not been driving recklessly.

....................

the rest:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/is-it-ok-to-kill-cyclists.html

160 replies, 9702 views

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Arrow 160 replies Author Time Post
Reply Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists? (Original post)
kpete Nov 2013 OP
Recursion Nov 2013 #1
cali Nov 2013 #2
Duckhunter935 Nov 2013 #4
RC Nov 2013 #49
Yo_Mama Nov 2013 #66
Scootaloo Nov 2013 #117
Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #140
FreeState Nov 2013 #142
Berlum Nov 2013 #12
Yo_Mama Nov 2013 #73
Iggo Nov 2013 #18
RiffRandell Nov 2013 #44
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #59
dionysus Nov 2013 #88
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #112
dionysus Nov 2013 #113
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #137
dionysus Nov 2013 #139
Gormy Cuss Nov 2013 #64
Recursion Nov 2013 #67
Gormy Cuss Nov 2013 #78
redwitch Nov 2013 #109
KAESNO2 Nov 2013 #129
redwitch Nov 2013 #150
Lizzie Poppet Nov 2013 #130
Duckhunter935 Nov 2013 #3
jberryhill Nov 2013 #10
Duckhunter935 Nov 2013 #19
duffyduff Nov 2013 #27
Recursion Nov 2013 #47
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #62
jberryhill Nov 2013 #147
Duckhunter935 Nov 2013 #107
Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #141
Duckhunter935 Nov 2013 #151
Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #152
Hoyt Nov 2013 #14
duffyduff Nov 2013 #29
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #63
NutmegYankee Nov 2013 #5
AndyA Nov 2013 #6
duffyduff Nov 2013 #23
Daemonaquila Nov 2013 #33
Hoyt Nov 2013 #57
wercal Nov 2013 #85
AndyA Nov 2013 #34
kcr Nov 2013 #96
Niceguy1 Nov 2013 #38
Orrex Nov 2013 #7
IDemo Nov 2013 #8
kpete Nov 2013 #9
Berlum Nov 2013 #15
Ikonoklast Nov 2013 #103
duffyduff Nov 2013 #24
Gore1FL Nov 2013 #36
Bjorn Against Nov 2013 #45
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #68
Yo_Mama Nov 2013 #76
surrealAmerican Nov 2013 #11
Chan790 Nov 2013 #13
IDemo Nov 2013 #16
surrealAmerican Nov 2013 #20
PasadenaTrudy Nov 2013 #17
meadowlark5 Nov 2013 #32
PasadenaTrudy Nov 2013 #35
bhikkhu Nov 2013 #21
duffyduff Nov 2013 #25
loli phabay Nov 2013 #26
Daemonaquila Nov 2013 #37
loli phabay Nov 2013 #43
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #69
Yo_Mama Nov 2013 #79
ancianita Nov 2013 #90
msanthrope Nov 2013 #22
KentuckyWoman Nov 2013 #28
duffyduff Nov 2013 #30
Recursion Nov 2013 #61
pangaia Nov 2013 #31
renie408 Nov 2013 #39
PasadenaTrudy Nov 2013 #42
bobclark86 Nov 2013 #46
renie408 Nov 2013 #50
bobclark86 Nov 2013 #52
renie408 Nov 2013 #53
bobclark86 Nov 2013 #56
renie408 Nov 2013 #94
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #72
renie408 Nov 2013 #84
LanternWaste Nov 2013 #156
awoke_in_2003 Nov 2013 #40
tenderfoot Nov 2013 #41
B Calm Nov 2013 #70
tenderfoot Nov 2013 #80
gollygee Nov 2013 #153
sir pball Nov 2013 #155
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #74
tenderfoot Nov 2013 #82
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #87
tenderfoot Nov 2013 #93
Shankapotomus Nov 2013 #77
Tree-Hugger Nov 2013 #116
Fla Dem Nov 2013 #127
tenderfoot Nov 2013 #145
Prism Nov 2013 #48
renie408 Nov 2013 #51
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #83
Prism Nov 2013 #86
hfojvt Nov 2013 #102
hfojvt Nov 2013 #54
Duckhunter935 Nov 2013 #60
hfojvt Nov 2013 #71
Duckhunter935 Nov 2013 #91
hfojvt Nov 2013 #99
Duckhunter935 Nov 2013 #108
Duckhunter935 Nov 2013 #101
hfojvt Nov 2013 #106
Duckhunter935 Nov 2013 #111
Decaffeinated Nov 2013 #55
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #89
Decaffeinated Nov 2013 #98
XRubicon Nov 2013 #104
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #132
Springslips Nov 2013 #97
Bjorn Against Nov 2013 #100
Decaffeinated Nov 2013 #118
Bjorn Against Nov 2013 #119
Decaffeinated Nov 2013 #120
Bjorn Against Nov 2013 #121
morningfog Nov 2013 #124
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #135
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #134
Decaffeinated Nov 2013 #143
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #146
Decaffeinated Nov 2013 #148
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #158
Decaffeinated Nov 2013 #159
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #160
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #133
morningfog Nov 2013 #123
Duckhunter935 Nov 2013 #125
TlalocW Nov 2013 #58
lumberjack_jeff Nov 2013 #65
B Calm Nov 2013 #75
LittleBlue Nov 2013 #81
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #92
LittleBlue Nov 2013 #95
Hoyt Nov 2013 #105
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #115
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #114
kpete Nov 2013 #136
kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #138
Captain Stern Nov 2013 #110
Initech Nov 2013 #122
MADem Nov 2013 #126
ileus Nov 2013 #128
KAESNO2 Nov 2013 #131
AngryOldDem Nov 2013 #144
slor Nov 2013 #149
gollygee Nov 2013 #154
Pretzel_Warrior Nov 2013 #157

Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 10:58 AM

1. Stop at stoplights and don't try to whip around cars

I've found that actually obeying traffic laws always kept me pretty safe.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:01 AM

2. and please, if you're going to cycle at night, particularly on poorly lit roads

 

or roads with no lighting, wear reflective clothing.

A couple of years ago I nearly hit a cyclist on a dark road.

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Response to cali (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:03 AM

4. they should also

 

have lights on the bikes

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Response to cali (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:30 PM

49. Do NOT wear black at night, especially if you are dark skinned.

 

Do not decide that you want to ride on the other side of the street, in front of on coming traffic, especially at night when you are wearing black. This is suicidal in 40 MPH zones.
Use lights AND reflective clothing. More than once the only thing that saved you from me, was a little reflective stripe on the back of your shoes. No lights, no reflectors on bike. Street lights hidden in leaves on trees, or even no street lights.
You need to be seen to be avoided.
Also putting your head down and peddling harder through stop signs and red lights is not conducive to a long life. Again the warning about wearing black and using lights at night.

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Response to cali (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:05 PM

66. Same thing with walking or running!

People try to get themselves fit and instead get themselves dead.

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Response to cali (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:45 PM

117. HUGE problem where I live

 

Lots of night-cyclists, next to no road lighting, and a preponderance for wearing black. Thankfully, traffic is very light, except when the ferry disgorges - in which case traffic is. slow and well-lit from the three mile trail of headlights. We DO have dedicated bike lanes, as well... So even with those problems, biking is pretty safe. But it's still a little unnerving to have a cyclist suddenly "appear" five feet ahead of you to the right.

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Response to cali (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 06:51 PM

140. Better yet -

wear one of these: https://www.noxgear.com/

(I participated in the kickstarter funding for the initial run of these, but have no other interest - aside from being pleased with the ability to be seen at dusk and later.)

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Response to cali (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 07:11 PM

142. As a distance runner I have more issues with cyclist than cars

I wear a head lamp and run on the road, towards traffic. I move over to the shoulder when I see a car or cyclist coming towards me. For some reason about 10% of the cyclist try to pass me by going to the curb - meaning they will run me down unless I run towards the middle of the road at the last second. This happens every other day. (These are also casual cyclist, not hobbits or those that ride a lot.)

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Response to Recursion (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:51 AM

12. I ride every day, and the biggest danger is: other bikers who pay no attention to laws

ticks me off. So many bike riders just kiss off the rules of the road, endangering themselves and everyone else. Smarten up, folks; arrogance will only take you so far.

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Response to Berlum (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:15 PM

73. Hey, I saw a distracted jogger cause a bad bike accident

There were two bikers, paying attention, moving right along a road on the side - they looked to be training. They were going quite fast, but safely, and they were probably 6-8 miles below the posted speed limit. A jogger playing with her cell phone came trotting out a side street, not looking where she was going, right in front of the oncoming bikers. In order to avoid her, both bikers swerved from the pavement to go off the road. They had to react very suddenly, you understand?

One of their wheels hit the other, they both took a spill, and one had to go to the hospital. I think his arm hit a curb and he broke it.,

I stopped to give a statement to the cop exonerating the bikers. The jogger was extremely pissy about the ticket, but she was at fault, and only the fact that the bikers WERE alert saved her from the collision.

Sharing the road means SHARING IT. Careless bikers kill other bikers and pedestrians, and careless drivers kill other drivers, bikers and pedestrians. We all have the responsibility to be using public rights of way safely.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:04 PM

18. ...or get killed!

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Response to Recursion (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:21 PM

44. Thank you. nt

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Response to Recursion (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:56 PM

59. I obey the law scrupulously. It does nothing to protect me from

 

murderous drivers who like to pass within inches of me at high speed when the other lane is clear.

Drivers are doing the murdering and are not being punished. This is shameful.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #59)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:26 PM

88. what happens to me if, the other lane isn't clear, i am too paranoid to get too close to the cyclist

so I end up puttering in the right hand lane until I can pull to the left. I ain't gonna run over somebody. sometimes it causes angry drivers to line up behind me. I know bikes are supposed to use the street, but its a 40mph zone and only real cyclists do it; all the recreational bike riders like me use the sidewalk. cops don't seem to care.

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Response to dionysus (Reply #88)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:26 PM

112. You putter along until the coast is clear for you to pass -

 

because you are an adult and not a spoiled child. You'd do the same if it were a marked SMV, right?

It's not the legally-riding cyclist's job to get out of your way just because you're in a hurry.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #112)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:28 PM

113. smv? slow moving vehicles? guess so. i wish we could have dedicated bike paths everywhere,

because even when obeying traffic rules cyclists get run over. with cars its a fender bender, with a bicycle its serious injury or death.

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Response to dionysus (Reply #113)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 05:34 PM

137. There is no way to have bike paths everywhere, sadly. And bike lanes are almost as

 

dangerous as riding in traffic. A cyclist was killed just 2 blocks from my home a couple of months ago while riding in a bike lane with a helmet on. The car hit him so hard the helmet came off. He died of the head injury.

And the driver wasn't even cited. It was deemed an unfortunate "accident".

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #137)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 06:16 PM

139. tragic. i know it's a pipe dream but it'd create jobs, save lives, and help people get more exercise

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Response to Recursion (Reply #1)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:03 PM

64. I stop at stops, I don't whip around cars, and still have to deal with dangerous drivers weekly.

I live in an area with excellent bike routes, bike lanes, shoulders, etc. but not all of those roads are equal. There are some routes I just won't ride anymore because of the high level of inattentive or aggressive drivers. Regardless of where I ride though I always ride defensively. I assume that drivers don't see me. I assume that drivers don't want to share the road. I assume that drivers will ignore my left turn signal and that I may not be able to move over and make the turn. I assume that bike sharing markings (as opposed to bike lanes) are not understood.

I also assume that there will be potholes, glass, and other debris when I'm riding on a shoulder. I assume that I'll spend a lot of time at dead stops when I'm traveling through a business district or in an area where wild turkeys congregate. I assume that I'll have to slow down for slow walkers, dogs on leashes, and little kids when I use multi-use trails. I know that I'm required to come to a full stop to let a horse and rider pass.

I always wear a helmet, high visibility clothing, and don't ride at night if I can help it, yet I have front and rear lights ready if I do.

IOW, I'm a defensive cyclist and I have to take corrective action to avoid dangerous drivers all too often. Drivers who pass me too closely, drivers who turn in front of me when I'm crossing an intersection or passing the entrance to a parking lot. They're a tiny fraction of the drivers I encountered but they're the ones that make it dangerous, not me.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #64)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:05 PM

67. Do you watch out for pedestrians?

My only personal experience with bike accidents has been having cyclists who don't seem to care about stop signs or stop lights ram into me as I'm crossing the street. Three times so far.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #67)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:18 PM

78. What's a pedestrian?

Riding defensively naturally assumes that people walk across streets where you're cycling. Some of them are jaywalking, which makes it a bit more interesting. However, since my routes through areas with a lot of foot traffic have stops every other block or so it's rare that I'm traveling more than 10 MPH and my brakes work well.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #78)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:16 PM

109. My pedestrian son got clobbered by bicyclist going wrong way on one way street.

They both got a ride in an ambulance, cyclist hurt worst as she flew over handlebars. She was going really fast and he had just stepped off the curb.

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Response to redwitch (Reply #109)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 05:14 PM

129. Hope she learned a lesson. nt

 

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Response to KAESNO2 (Reply #129)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 12:27 PM

150. I hope she did too. Also hope she is ok.

I have no idea how things ended up for her or if there is lasting damage.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #64)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 05:17 PM

130. I've been hit twice.

 

Not a bad number, considering how much cycling I do, I suppose (and living in extremely bike-friendly Portland certainly helps). I'm pretty law-abiding (that is, I only blow off traffic controls, etc., when there's no one else around for it to inconvenience), and in both cases the car driver was completely in the wrong. Like you, I wear high-visibility clothing and use lights in the dark. And like you, I find myself taking evasive action on a very regular basis...

Here in Portland, it's very rare to get the sort of harassing behavior from motorists I read about elsewhere (and I suspect it's usually some prat from the 'burbs when it does happen).

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:02 AM

3. No

 

but cyclists also have to follow the laws as well. That means STOP and stop lights and signs. That means stay to the right of the road. Car need to look for both bicycles and motorcycles, they have just as much right to be on the road.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:42 AM

10. "stay to the right of the road"

 

Ah, one of those "why does a cyclist think he can make a left turn" people. I have a special love for drivers who think bikes are restricted to right turns only.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:08 PM

19. Follow the rules

 

Stay to the right UNLESS making a left turn and use the proper hand signals. Just where did I say you could not make a left turn. As a motorcycle rider I am very careful and drive like the other guy does not see me.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:40 PM

27. That comes from the mentality they think cyclists are pedestrians.

 

They are NOT. The rules for cars apply to cyclists.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:29 PM

47. Did you know in several cities the law is that cyclists should dismount and walk at intersections?

I actually did that quite a bit when I was biking in DC.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #47)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:01 PM

62. That's only if you are in the crosswalk. If you are in traffic lanes,

 

you are not permitted to be a pedestrian there.

Here in Los Angeles there is no such stupid traffic-delaying rule.

We have the right here to be on the street just like any car. AND we have the right to use the sidewalk/crosswalks, which is helpful when there is a lot of car traffic and no bike lane (we have very few bike lanes).

Nonetheless, drivers act like they have the right to speed past cyclists (who are obeying the law, mind you) within inches, honking their horn and behaving like complete asswipes.

I happen to think they need their licenses revoked.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #47)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 09:49 PM

147. DC has updated their bike lanes

 

And I will admit that making a left turn using some of them is a real head-scratcher.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:02 PM

107. Yes on the right with some exceptions

 

Operation on Roadway

21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:

(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.

(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this section, a "substandard width lane" is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.

(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway of a highway, which highway carries traffic in one direction only and has two or more marked traffic lanes, may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of that roadway as practicable.


Some more

BIKING ON THE ROAD

Ride to the Right, But Within Limits - When riding slower than the normal speed of traffic, you are required to ride as far right as “practicable” (meaning safe). You are not required to ride as far right as possible, which may not be safe. You are allowed, but not required, to ride on the shoulder. CVC 21202, CVC 21650, CVC 21650.1

Take the Lane - If a travel lane is too narrow to safely share side by side with a motor vehicle, you can prevent unsafe passing by riding near the center of the lane. On two-lane roads where it’s illegal or unsafe to pass, you must turn off the roadway at a designated or safe location to allow a line of 5 or more vehicles behind you to pass. CVC 21202 (a)(3), CVC 21656

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #107)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 06:57 PM

141. You are aware that that is a local law -

Not one applicable outside of your particular jurisdiction, right?

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #141)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:02 PM

151. of course

 

but most are the same

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #151)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:49 PM

152. Not really.

There is a tremendous variation in how well bikes are addressed, separate from how vehicles are addressed.

In Ohio, for example, bicycles are not required to yield to faster moving vehicles, or to stay to the far right to permit vehicles to pass unless the lane is wide enough for both the vehicle and the bicycle to share - and otherwise safe. Bicyclists (or motorcyclists) may also ride two abreast. There is absolutely no requirement to pull off the road to permit vehicles to pass. ORC 4511.55.

But - even a no passing zone - faster moving vehicles may pass a bicycle (or other slow moving vehicle) when:
(1) The slower vehicle is proceeding at less than half the speed of the speed limit applicable to that location.
(2) The faster vehicle is capable of overtaking and passing the slower vehicle without exceeding the speed limit.
(3) There is sufficient clear sight distance to the left of the center or center line of the roadway to meet the overtaking and passing provisions of section 4511.29 of the Revised Code, considering the speed of the slower vehicle. (ORC §4511.31(B).)

So the tension between slow moving vehicles and faster moving vehicles is resolved differently in Ohio than in the jurisdiction you were quoting.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:55 AM

14. When I rode, stayed right on the edge. Yahoos still tried to see how close they could come

Last edited Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:57 PM - Edit history (2)

blew their horn when right next to you, yelled crud, threw stuff, etc. I caught a few of them too, the look on a yahoo's face who gets a kick out of trying to intimidate a cyclist - when they thought they left you far behind - is priceless.

At worst, slowing down for a cyclist will set you back a few seconds, and those seconds are easy to make up in an auto.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:41 PM

29. Sometimes you can't go all the way to the right, and the law recognizes this.

 

There is gravel, there is debris, there are storm drains and other such obstacles.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:02 PM

63. ^^^THIS^^^

 

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:18 AM

5. I have seen some with a death wish

Riding in the middle of a 45 MPH winding Connecticut road (Many of which are narrower than modern standards, typically have trees right up to the road and the branches over it high up to shield sunlight) is pure suicide. Cars come around the corners not expecting a 10 MPH object right in their lane, and given the choice between swerving and hitting a tree (probably fatal for driver) or the cyclist, the cyclist loses. If the cyclist is staying close to the side, they are usually ok. But there has been a movement to ride in the middle of lanes. Absolute suicide.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:29 AM

6. No, it is certainly not OK to kill cyclists

As others have said, cyclists must be responsible for their own safety as well. They should obey the traffic laws, just as people in cars must. Cyclists should avoid narrow roads where they don't have a safety zone whenever possible, as well as poorly lit areas or areas with lots of curves where motorists can come up on them quickly and not have time to react.

Lighting and reflective clothing should be required.

Cyclists should understand they don't have the visibility of an automobile, and when they weave in and out of traffic, ride down between cars, cut between cars, etc., they increase their risk of being hit.

I can usually tell when a person is cycling for leisure or is using it as primary transportation. The primary transportation riders do seem to be more alert to their surroundings, and share the road better. They also seem to be better equipped with reflective clothing and lighting.

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Response to AndyA (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:36 PM

23. If you hit and kill one, the onus is on YOU.

 

Stop trashing cyclists.

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Response to duffyduff (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:52 PM

33. Hell yes.

 

If only cyclists would just do this or that... Whine, whine, whine. I am sick of hearing about how we should be the ones to go to inordinate lengths for our safety, 'cuz of course everyone knows that roads are for cars and we're the ones causing a risk for ourselves and drivers.

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Response to Daemonaquila (Reply #33)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:52 PM

57. +100. At worst, cyclists cost motorists a few seconds. Heck, slow cars held me up plenty of times.


Cyclists can ride pretty fast, and they are easy to get around. Jeeez, if one can't spare a few seconds to get around a cyclist, maybe they need to reevaluate their priorities.

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Response to Daemonaquila (Reply #33)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:25 PM

85. Inordinate lengths?

Have you ever driven a car? Do you find it more difficult to see a cyclist than a car? I do. I would not consider wearing reflective cothing and following traffic laws to be 'inordinate'.

I occasionally ride...and its a very defensive exercise. Nothing I can say or do will change the visibility issues that come with riding a bike....so I go to all sorts of 'inordinate lengths' to stay alive.

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Response to duffyduff (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:52 PM

34. Cyclists have the same responsibilities on the road as automobile drivers

Quit excusing them for breaking the law.

I did not trash cyclists. They have the same responsibilities and obligations.

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Response to duffyduff (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:36 PM

96. Hardly.

Not only is it entirely possible for a cyclist to be at fault, I see them breaking the rules of the road all the time, placing themselves in danger. It shouldn't be automatically assume the driver is at fault.

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Response to AndyA (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:05 PM

38. I can agree with you on the narrow curved roads

But on the straight narrow roads where there isn't enough room for both bike and car sometimes you have to ride in the lane so cars don't try to squeeze past you unsafely...same thing for right turn lanes. Motorists get impatient and forget that they have to share.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:35 AM

7. Where I live, there's a bag limit of two per season

I've fallen way behind in recent years, alas.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:38 AM

8. News flash: it cuts both ways, folks

Cyclists aren't the only ones at fault here. When I bicycle commuted a few years ago, I had to drive the route one day because of a doctor's appointment. The woman directly ahead of me drifted all the way into the bike lane I would normally have been riding, apparently mesmerized by something utterly fascinating on her MoronPhone. She did this three times, once over-correcting into the center turn lane.

Negligence and dangerous idiocy is not indicated by the number of wheels on one's vehicle.

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Response to IDemo (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:41 AM

9. thanks IDemo

mr. pete & I love our bikes

it does cut both ways
like you say

and, bikes are here to stay.

peace, kp

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Response to IDemo (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:56 AM

15. Be Ware MoronPhone

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Response to Berlum (Reply #15)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:57 PM

103. Yep.

[link:|

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Response to IDemo (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:37 PM

24. And frankly, the driver is at fault if he or she kills one.

 

Use some common sense, people.

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Response to duffyduff (Reply #24)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:03 PM

36. Fault depends on who is breaking the traffic laws not vehicle size. n/t

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Response to IDemo (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:25 PM

45. Agreed, when I biked I followed all traffic laws but had many drivers nearly run me down

I don't bike anymore in large part because it is so dangerous, I have known many people who were hit by cars while biking. I do see cyclists do stupid things and disobey traffic laws all the time, but I also see cars act aggressively towards bikes as well. It does cut both ways, cyclists need to obey the laws but cars need to slow down and act cautiously around bikes as well.

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Response to IDemo (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:07 PM

68. For anybody who BOTHERED to read the article, it does cite a study that

 

showed that in the majority of cases, DRIVERS were at fault. Yet the usual crew of bicycle haters piles on here as usual, just like their gun nutter compatriots, to rant and rave about mythical irresponsible cyclists filling the streets.

Drivers are the ones operating deadly weapons. THEY are the ones with the special duty to exercise caution. We cyclists need to obey the law, but generally we DO.

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Response to IDemo (Reply #8)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:17 PM

76. Very precisely stated.

Anyone using the road carelessly can present a danger to others.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:46 AM

11. I can't help but feel that part of the problem with our society ...

... stems from large numbers of people daily putting themselves into situations where they need to think of their fellow human beings as people who will kill them. It undermines our ability to trust one another, and without a minimum level of mutual trust, the whole culture suffers.

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Response to surrealAmerican (Reply #11)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:54 AM

13. you're right...

 

we should just ban cars in order to improve the national karma and not have to feel like motorists are a continuing and ongoing threat to our lives.

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:59 AM

16. And short skirts. They're just asking for trouble n/t

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Response to Chan790 (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:25 PM

20. ... or, just maybe, we could make driving ...

... a less lethal activity. We are still a few years away from self-driving cars. If we ever get there, it could change so much.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:03 PM

17. No way in hell

would I ride a bike here in the city. I'm older now and my reaction time is not what it once was. I used to ride a bike all over Pasadena in the '70s and early 80s. There are more cars on the road now and cell phones in the mix. No thanks, I want to live a while longer if I can. Bike vs car is never good.

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Response to PasadenaTrudy (Reply #17)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:51 PM

32. I stick to bike trails and only one road do I ride

Because of the stories I hear of cyclists getting killed around here.

Since I do ride, I notice the way other cyclists ride and think to myself, "that's how you get hit by a car." I forever wonder why people ride on the busy 2 lane highways around here. There is no room for cars to go around and no shoulder for the cyclist - these are not commuters just out riding. Because it's not a usual thing to see on a highway, people aren't in the habit of watching for cyclists. More power to them, but I would NEVER trust a motorist on a highway that narrow to see me. Not in this day and age with cell phones. And now that we have a car with one of those LCD screens that display music, maps, climate controls, I find those to be more distracting than my old van that had none of that.

I ride bike trails and I ride one rural road with a big shoulder and that road still makes me a little nervous when I ride.

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Response to meadowlark5 (Reply #32)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:59 PM

35. I hear ya!

I think the safest bike is a stationary one Yes, trails sound fun or a bike path like the one in Eugene, OR right along the river. I'm just afraid of falling and breaking bones. I have osteopaenia now....aging sucks

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:35 PM

21. In 100k+ miles of cycling, I've never been hit or threatened

...so while it does happen and I can see how it can be tragic or scary, its pretty rare. I live in a RW non-cycling town, but people are still pretty good about cyclists. Follow the rules, be aware of drivers, always be ready to stop, and its probably safer than driving.

The one thing to remember is that on a bicycle you can turn, stop, accelerate, or otherwise react to circumstances much faster than a car can. Getting hit from behind is the one thing hard to avoid, but I use a light and bright clothes and ride predictably, and it is extremely rare.

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Response to bhikkhu (Reply #21)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:38 PM

25. True. I have done it close to 40 years.

 

There is only one bicycle path locally where bikes don't come in contact with cars, but I have never had problems with a car.

The problem is with drivers that don't treat bicycles as VEHICLES.

Cyclists are NOT pedestrians.

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Response to bhikkhu (Reply #21)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:39 PM

26. ride predictably is the most important thing in this thread

 

Dont do stuff that surprises the guy in his pickup coming past you as there is no time to react.

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #26)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:03 PM

37. Wrong.

 

Half the time, the guy in the pickup is going to be "surprised" no matter what because he isn't watching for anything but cars, assuming he's even paying that much attention. It doesn't matter how predictably a biker rides. The couple times I've been nearly taken out, I was riding in the most predictable way possible - in a well-marked bike lane. For good or ill in the larger social sense, riding aggressively and like an asshat is the best way to be noticed, nimble, and safe.

I've biked in big cities for 20+ years, and I'm long past any delusions that there is a way to ride safely, but I happily ride anyway. I don't wear a helmet, reflectors, or protective clothes - they're a waste of money and just cut down on your freedom of movement. I assume every car on the road is out to nail me. So far, zero accidents. I can't say the same for the people I know who go to great lengths for the delusion of bike safety.

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Response to Daemonaquila (Reply #37)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:20 PM

43. no not wrong, almost hit one last night on a country road, no lights reflectors etc, luckily for thi

 

Idiot i was watching for deer and saw him at the last minute and swerved to avoid contact. So far you have been lucky but the attitude of no lights etc is you asking for a darwin award, i feel sorry for the person who ends up hitting you.

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Response to Daemonaquila (Reply #37)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:11 PM

69. Basic safety FAIL. I'm living proof that hypervigilant

 

defensive cycling works.

Been cycling a LOT in Los Angeles for the past 5 years and nobody has struck me yet (but that's not for lack of trying).

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Response to bhikkhu (Reply #21)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:21 PM

79. There is a rise in distracted drivers, cyclists and runners

I have now seen TWO separate incidents where runners were distracted by cell phones and caused cycling accidents. One looked bad.

But I've seen lunatic bikers and I've seen lunatic drivers. I just watch for the loons now.

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Response to bhikkhu (Reply #21)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:29 PM

90. Same here. Ridden 40 yrs. all over Chicago, just not at night; bright clothes, rear view mirror,

awareness, following rules, etc. do go a long way. City hall has declared this a bike friendly town, as all towns should.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:35 PM

22. Having been seriously hit by a bike, and having seriously hit a cyclist, I

 

can only ask that cyclists obey the rules and Wear Helmets!!!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:41 PM

28. NO

I've seen some cyclists with a seeming death wish - some are just jackass dumbshits..... but that does NOT excuse drivers.

Fair or not fair - give the folks on bikes the right of way. Period. This also goes for kids running around the neighborhood and pedestrians.

If you are behind the wheel with the attitude everyone else should just get the eff out of your way, your time is more precious than anyone else's and you have a right to screw with your phone/radio/dvd blah blah while driving like Richard Petty at Talladega - well when you maim or kill someone - and you will eventually - then you better be prepared to spend some time in jail.


Edit to add -- all that said cyclists do need to follow the rules and I'm not advocating sending drivers to jail if it's clearly the cyclist who is at fault and no way even a super cautious driver could avoid the incident. But most incidents I see involve an aggressive cyclist and an aggressive driver both.

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Response to KentuckyWoman (Reply #28)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:43 PM

30. It's the LAW. Bicycles are considered vehicles. They are not pedestrians. n/t

 

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Response to duffyduff (Reply #30)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:58 PM

61. Actually that depends. In some jurisdictions they are considered vehicles *and* pedestrians

Bicycle law still hasn't caught up with reality in a lot of places; consider the fact I mentioned above that in a lot of cities the law says you should dismount at intersections and walk across.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 12:44 PM

31. I almost hit a guy on a bike..

in San Francisco, no less. It was totally my fault. Something I will never, ever forget. As a longtime motorcycle rider, I should have known better.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:07 PM

39. Is it OK for cyclists to ride down the middle of the road in groups of 40-50...

because they want to pretend that they are in the Tour de France, ignoring every single rule of public road use?

We live in the country...unfortunately, not FAR ENOUGH in the country. We are about thirty minutes outside of Charlotte, NC, and every weekend HORDES of cyclists park at the local elementary school and bike around here. Nearly every weekend we are held up by groups of 40-50 cyclists strung out over several hundred feet of road, taking up the entire lane. You cannot pass them because they are too strung out. But they can only go about 30 mph. When you do finally get into our little one stop light town, you will find yourself stuck at the light while hordes of bikers just run right through it.

I hate cyclists. I would not intentionally endanger one with my vehicle, but I have been seriously tempted to stop and beat the hell out of them on more than one occasion. Almost worse than the giant groups are the little packs of 3-4 that ride side by side taking up the road. WTF? Why can't they go single file when a car comes? Around here it is almost as if the cyclists take pride in holding up the cars.

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Response to renie408 (Reply #39)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:19 PM

42. Same thing here

Big packs take up the whole road. There's a pack that rides at the Rose Bowl every week. They take up the whole narrow road. Guys in lycra, wannabe Lance Armstrongs, conformist members of the "team." They are so arrogant! I've had to honk at them before to get them to move over a bit so I could drive past them. Then they flip me off. I imagine they are all junior executives and business type clean-cut guys during the day. Competitive types. Grrrr...

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Response to renie408 (Reply #39)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:26 PM

46. Under my state's laws:

1) Cyclists are considered motor vehicles. The furthest right "straight" lane, except when turning left, is theirs.
2) Cyclists may ride two abreast. It's their lane.

Most states are like that, from what I gather.

"I would not intentionally endanger one with my vehicle, but I have been seriously tempted to stop and beat the hell out of them on more than one occasion."

I wish I could be this flippant about another person's safety. Just FYI, many bike riders want to get off their bikes with a handgun or bear mace (some carry for dogs and such) and shoot people for breaking the law by zipping around too close IN THEIR LANE.

Old people coming out of church at 25 mph don't make me want to get out of my car "and beat the hell out of them." Stopping school buses don't make me want to "beat the hell out of them."

In short: Chill the fuck out, bro. Wait for a passing lane and lay off the meth, man.

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Response to bobclark86 (Reply #46)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:32 PM

50. What part of 'in the country' did you not understand, bro?

What passing lane? And why don't you come down here and get stuck behind 300 feet of cyclists on Hwy 75 for TEN MILES and then tell me to chill the fuck out? This is a hilly and curvy road and one of the only roads between me and my work. And it is VERY common to get stuck behind large groups of cyclists that you cannot pass. I guess it is inconsiderate of me to think that THEY should obey the rules.

And if I get stuck behind a car being driven by an elderly person going slowly, there are places to pass a single car. Not a strung out line of 50 cyclists. You don't pass because you are afraid you are going to hit one. Yet I am the jerk here, right??

And I am not a man, asshole.

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Response to renie408 (Reply #50)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:44 PM

52. ERMEGERD! I'm being inconvenienced!!!

Oh, BTW, when you start talking about road rage and piss-pounding people, I assumed you were some testosterone-jacking douchebag guy. Because statistically it's men who go on the Internet talking tough about fighting people for doing something as simple as using the roadway.

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Response to bobclark86 (Reply #52)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:46 PM

53. LOL

Well, you are better natured than I am about other people being assholes and taking up the road and breaking the rules.

I guess you get the gold star.

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Response to renie408 (Reply #53)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:52 PM

56. Better than threatening people...

for using a roadway.

Life's short. Very soon, you will be dead. Statistically, within the next 50 years or so, you will be nothing but a rotting pile of bones in a fancy box underground (or a few pounds of carbon dust in a jar on the mantle). I don't believe in an afterlife, so I picture your (and mine, and everybody's) existence coming to an abrupt end -- no white light, no consciousness, no anything. The most resounding darkness, making the inside of a black hole look like you're tanning at Club Med.

How do you want to spend what limited time you have left? Angry at people enjoying their lives by using a roadway?

As I said, chill.

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Response to bobclark86 (Reply #56)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:33 PM

94. I would like to spend my time getting where I need to go

and not held up because of a bunch of people who feel that their desire to 'enjoy their lives by using a roadway' (and who are breaking the law) supersedes my desire to enjoy my life by being where I am supposed to be.

I do not feel angry when I see a couple of cyclists enjoying a nice day on their bikes. I said I feel angry when huge groups take up the roads. A flaw in me, I am sure.

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Response to renie408 (Reply #50)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:15 PM

72. It is not a cyclist's job to "get out of your way" any more than it is

 

a marked slow moving vehicle's job to "get out of your way". The streets and highways are not NASCAR tracks.

Get over yourself.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #72)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:24 PM

84. You can read, right?

They are traveling in large groups, which is against the law. I do not want to speed, I would like to go over 30 mph on a public highway. God, I am SO unreasonable, aren't I?

They. Are. Breaking. The. Law. So, why don't YOU get over YOURSELF?

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Response to renie408 (Reply #84)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:04 PM

156. As are those who drive 65 in a zoned-60 thoroughfare.

"They. Are. Breaking. The. Law...."

As are those who drive 65 in a zoned-60 thoroughfare.

I can only imagine you share the same disdain for them that you do for cyclists in packs... unless of course, the disdain is predicated only on your own convenience being lessened-- which would of course, be quite unreasonable, as well as rather irrational...

(insert rationalization here...)

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:10 PM

40. If you kill someone on two wheels...

 

whether a bike or motorcycle, you will usually not be punished- at least not much more beyond a ticket. I keep this in mind when I am riding. Everyone with more than two wheels is the enemy, and they don't pay attention.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:12 PM

41. I wish this nation would seriously consider contructing Bike Lanes in any future urban planning...

and that's all I have to say.

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Response to tenderfoot (Reply #41)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:12 PM

70. Then the joggers will whine about the cyclists!

 

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Response to B Calm (Reply #70)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:21 PM

80. Why? How many people jog on the street?

I see your point but doubt it will happen. If anything, it's conservatives that don't think money should be spent on such a thing.

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Response to tenderfoot (Reply #80)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:52 PM

153. Most of them around here

and it drives me crazy! A friend of mine who is a marathon runner said that asphalt is more forgiving on the joints than concrete so she always runs in the street.

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Response to tenderfoot (Reply #80)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 02:50 PM

155. I run smack dab in the middle of Madison Avenue.

The sidewalk is far too crowded to run safely, so I get out in the bus lanes instead. I'm going against traffic, and the bus lanes are indeed bus-only, so it's actually quite safe and enjoyable.

I have almost clotheslined asshat cyclists blowing through red lights at cross streets doing that though. One day punks, one day..

(I ride and I respect riders but red lights mean STOP. You blow one, your ass is fair game.)

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Response to tenderfoot (Reply #41)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:16 PM

74. I wish this nation would seriously consider appropriate punishments

 

for people who operate deadly weapons unsafely.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #74)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:22 PM

82. Like guns? This thread is about bicycles.

???

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Response to tenderfoot (Reply #82)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:26 PM

87. Cars are deadly weapons. And they are used irresponsibly in a way

 

not unlike guns.

But I was referring to cars, as you full well know. Bicycles are not the deadly weapons in this picture.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #87)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:32 PM

93. I saw that was addressed in the article and I agree, it is really effed up...

I was not sure what you were referring to at first.

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Response to tenderfoot (Reply #41)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:18 PM

77. +1

yep. Bike lanes should be everywhere. It's the only way to resolve the feud between drivers and cyclists.

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Response to tenderfoot (Reply #41)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:36 PM

116. They have them in Philadelphia

They've had bike lanes for well over a decade. I think they were done when Rendell was mayor.

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Response to tenderfoot (Reply #41)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 04:43 PM

127. Bike lanes are great, except when cyclists insist on riding 3 & 4 abreast.

I always give cyclist a wide berth. Mainly because I don't know what they will do; at the last minute lose control, swerve into my lane, etc. I respect their right to use the roads just as much as I have a right. But don't endanger pedestrian and motorists with reckless biking.

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Response to Fla Dem (Reply #127)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 08:12 PM

145. How about when cars veer into bike lanes?

Mentioned in the article.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:30 PM

48. The fact of the matter is

 

When I bike to work, every car is trying to kill me.

When I drive to work, every cyclist has a death wish.

That said, the fact of the matter is that car vs cyclist is a more dangerous equation. The car is going to win every time. There can be a thousand car vs car collisions in a day, and you can have everyone walk away due to seat belts, air bags, the fact you're in a four thousand pound steel cage, etc.

The exact same scenario between two automobiles that might result in an annoying insurance claim can and will result in death if it's car vs. cyclist.

On balance and through my experience, cyclists will break the rules more frequently. How many cars per day would you say you see fly through a stop sign in an intersection? Seeing one do it would be noteworthy. You'd say, "look at that crazy asshole!" You know how many cyclists I see blowing through intersections during busy traffic per day?

A lot.

And I don't hate cyclists. I am one. But here is San Francisco, I see some crazy people who think whizzing around on two wheels is a license to play in heavy traffic. It's dangerous and frequent. And yes, shit will happen. That doesn't absolve drivers of their responsibility, but let's at least acknowledge the practical equation we're working with.

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Response to Prism (Reply #48)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:37 PM

51. Thank you.

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Response to Prism (Reply #48)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:23 PM

83. I live in Los Angeles and can say that in 30+ years here I have NEVER seen

 

a cyclist run a red light. I have occasionally seen them go through stop signs, generally at 4-way stops with no cars near, or in cases where they were clearly not going to impede a soul, and even those times they slowed way down.

Need I tell you how many hundreds of thousands of times I have seen cars run stop signs and red lights during that same time frame in this city????? You can stand at literally any stop lighted intersection in Los Angeles, any time of day or night, and at literally EVERY cycle of the light you will see 5-10 cars blowing through the red light. Hour after hour, day after day, month after month, year after year, decade after decade. Tens of thousands of intersections, just in this city.

So people really need to STFU about the occasional cyclist who doesn't come to a complete stop when there isn't any cross traffic.

ETA: And don't even get me started on the drivers who come shooting out of driveways and alleys without looking or even slowing down slightly.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #83)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:26 PM

86. Not what I'm talking about

 

As a cyclist, I'll glide through a stop sign or red light if there is no traffic about. Couldn't care less if others do it as well.

Blazing through during traffic is something i do see on a daily basis in SF and East Bay.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #83)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:55 PM

102. I do it myself in a car

not really run a red light, just a very pink one. If a yellow one turns red before I have passed underneath it, I feel like I should have stopped.

It goes both ways though, sometimes I stop for yellows when I shouldn't and sometimes I go through yellows when I shouldn't.

The part that kinda kills me are the cars directly behind me. Sometimes I will go through a yellow and think "ah crud, I should have stopped" and I notice the car two car lengths behind me also goes through and I think "I KNOW you should have stopped". They seem to feel like "I can go through this light, because 'I am with him'"

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:47 PM

54. sigh, another day, another mountain out of a molehill

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times ..."

"The anecdotes mounted ..."

So I did not bother with any actual data. I read three stories, heard of two more and immediately ran out into the street yelling "the sky is falling, the sky is falling ..."

Here - try some data http://www.bicyclinginfo.org/facts/crash-facts.cfm

Cycling deaths are pretty rare.
In rural states/areas they are even rarer - a whopping TWO bicyclists were killed in Kansas in 2011.
more data http://floridacyclinglaw.com/images/uploads/blog/2011_NTSA_Traffic_Safety_Facts_-_Bicyclists_and_other_Cyclists.pdf

Even though that last link I got from an article that was screaming "the sky is falling". "Omigosh, cycling deaths are way up!!! It's a trend."

Yeah, uh huh. Way up, unless you look at the large picture where 677 in 2011 is NOT way up from 786 in 2005.

Really moronic and dishonest headline http://floridacyclinglaw.com/blog/archives/bicycle-death-rates

That said, from where this biker sits, some of those cyclists in urban areas seem to have a death wish. There are places and streets that I just will NOT ride on. That includes most of the country roads around where I live. Too busy and no shoulders. Also too hilly.

Which is a funny thing to say considering I am in Kansas and used to live in the "driftless region". But in Wisconsin, roads would often follow a valley, so they were quite flat for many miles. Here in Kansas it is just up and down and up and down.

Oh, and on this thread, I really have to roll my eyes at the finger wagging of "bicyclists need to stop for stop signs" and "need to wear helmets" and "reflective clothing".

Well, I am 0 for 3 on those, with 30,000+ miles on my bikes, a fair number of those miles at night.

The times I fear death are when MOTORISTS race up to stop signs and roll halfway into the intersection before stopping or when it looks like they want to make a quick perfunctory stop without looking in my direction. Then there are the rare morons who pass and then turn right, right in front of me.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #54)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:58 PM

60. good to know

 

the laws and rules of the road do not apply to you. Glad to hear you have not been hit yet by not stopping as required by law like cars.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #60)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:12 PM

71. petulance does not become you

is the law for the people?
or is the law OVER the people?

I say the law is for the people.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #71)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:31 PM

91. so you do not follow the law?

 

Seems you do not and have been lucky so far. Been driving for 30 plus years, cars pickup and motorcycle. Always follow the law and drive defensibly. One accident while waiting to get on post. That was a distracted driver hitting my stopped truck. Couple of close calls on my motorcycle but I anticipated and was able to avoid it. I see many bikes that just do not follow the rules of the road. SIMPLE things like SIGNALING and STOPPING. Seems like you have a chip on your shoulder. If we all would follow the rules and laws things would be much less likely to happen ti either party.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #91)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:49 PM

99. it's not luck

When I ride through a four way stop sign on an empty street, there is a zero percent chance that I will get in an accident.

Zero.

I have a chip? You are the one waving around "the law" like it is the ultimate authority.

Ha.

This is America.

We follow the law of common sense. If the street is empty - you walk across it. You don't wait for the light to change like some kind of automaton, or like some peasant cowing before the awesome might of a king and his "laws".

This is America. We make the laws. The laws are there for US. We rule them. They do not rule us.

The real laws are the laws of physics. The law of conservation of momentum. Momentum is a terrible thing to waste for no reason.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #99)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:06 PM

108. I guess I will start doing this as you say it is OK

 

With my car and motorcycle.

"When I ride through a four way stop sign on an empty street, there is a zero percent chance that I will get in an accident."

I hope you will get some tickets

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #54)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:55 PM

101. You say your location is Kansas

 

Laws.....

"8-1587. Traffic laws apply to persons riding bicycles. (All traffic laws apply to bicyclists.)
Every person riding a bicycle upon a roadway shall be granted all of the rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this act, except as otherwise provided in K.S.A. 8-1586 to 8-1592, inclusive, and except as to those provisions of this act which by their nature can have no application."

(a) Every person operating a bicycle or a moped upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable, except under any of the following situations when: (1) Overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction; (2) preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway; or (3) reasonably necessary to avoid conditions including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, parked or moving bicycles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or narrow width lanes that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand edge of the roadway.

(a) Every bicycle when in use at nighttime shall be equipped with a lamp on the front which shall emit a white light visible from a distance of at least five hundred (500) feet to the front and with a red reflector on the rear of a type approved by the secretary of transportation which shall be visible from all distances from one hundred (100) feet to six hundred (600) feet to the rear when directly in front of lawful lower beams of head lamps on a motor vehicle. A lamp emitting a red light visible from a distance of five hundred (500) feet to the rear may be used in addition to the red reflector.

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Response to Duckhunter935 (Reply #101)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:00 PM

106. fortunately you can still rock in America

"In fact, in the eyes of many citizens, any army at all seemed out of place in a society so highly individualistic as their own, in which almost everyone appeared to be in rebellion against all forms of subordination and regimentation." Black Hawk - The Battle for the Heart of America by Kerry A. Trask 2006 p. 25


So don't fill me up with your rules, 'cause everybody knows that smokin' ain't allowed in school.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #106)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:17 PM

111. just do not cry when you get hit

 

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:51 PM

55. Fun fact... Roads are for cars...

 

If there were herds of people wandering down the main streets and getting hit, no one would be surprised.

Take that and add the insanity of bikers and you have a recipe for the ER.

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Response to Decaffeinated (Reply #55)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:29 PM

89. Read your state laws. You will find that in all 50 states, roads are for

 

cars AND bicycles AND motorcycles AND slow moving vehicles AND Amish buggies.

Get over yourself. You freaks don't own everything.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #89)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:45 PM

98. I should have spoken more specifically..

 

Roads are built for cars physically. Morons who have the legal right to play in traffic are just as likely to get creamed as those who don't.

Feel free to get huffy about it but steel bumpers at 50 mph will always come out on top of poly carbonate at 10.

Math and physics... Crazy right?

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Response to Decaffeinated (Reply #98)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:59 PM

104. You should recaffinate...

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Response to Decaffeinated (Reply #98)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 05:24 PM

132. It's the car drivers who are "playing" in traffic with their NASCAR antics.

 

I'm just moseying along at a safe, legal speed avoiding causing problems for others. Perhaps I should start packing a pistol for self defense.

If I get rear-ended by a motorist, just like if I get rear-ended in a car guess who is totally at fault.

You asswipes need to grow up and stop acting like spoiled little children. It isn't all about you and what you want.

Enjoy your stay.

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Response to Decaffeinated (Reply #55)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:38 PM

97. Wrong

Roads are for cars, motorcycles and bicycles, so sayth the law.

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Response to Decaffeinated (Reply #55)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:54 PM

100. Fun fact, the law says roads are for bikes as well

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #100)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 04:04 PM

118. As stated above...

 

... the law doesn't keep that F-250 from operating where it's supposed be.

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Response to Decaffeinated (Reply #118)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 04:05 PM

119. No one said it did, but that truck needs to share the road.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #119)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 04:16 PM

120. Ahh.. the magical realm of Shouldland...

 

The bikers should stay out of the way and not expect everyone to accommodate them.

As long as we're talking about what "should" happen.

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Response to Decaffeinated (Reply #120)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 04:19 PM

121. And cars should respect the bikers who do stay to the side of the road

If you can't handle bikes on the road then you are the one who should stay off the road because the law clearly allows bikes on most city roads.

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Response to Decaffeinated (Reply #120)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 04:29 PM

124. Have you ever hit a cyclist?

 

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Response to morningfog (Reply #124)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 05:28 PM

135. He's probably the type that never misses an opportunity to sideswipe one

 

for kicks, madly honking and tossing beer cans at them all the while. Then he goes home and beats his dog.

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Response to Decaffeinated (Reply #120)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 05:27 PM

134. No, you hypergonadal tweaker types need to get out of your fucking hurry.

 

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #134)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 07:18 PM

143. I'll hurry where I please...

 

It's a road... built for cars... that drive relatively fast...

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Response to Decaffeinated (Reply #143)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 08:32 PM

146. It's built for ALL PEOPLE to use by VARIOUS MODES OF TRANSPORTATION.

 

Roads are not and never have been for the exclusive use of passenger cars.

I guess they don't teach that little factoid in RW christian homeschool, eh?

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #146)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 10:50 PM

148. Projecting much?

 

Breathe deeply and try again....

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Response to Decaffeinated (Reply #148)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 05:50 PM

158. I'm not the uneducated conservative in this picture, sweetcakes.

 

Oh, and I've figured out your other name. Sockpuppetry is frowned upon here.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #158)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 05:54 PM

159. That makes two...

 

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Response to Decaffeinated (Reply #159)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 06:44 PM

160. Hahahaha, I'm not computer savvy enough to know how to circumvent the TOS.

 

Nor do I need to.

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Response to Decaffeinated (Reply #118)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 05:26 PM

133. Your entitled attitude marks you as a person who is so much of a danger to others on the road,

 

you need your license permanently revoked.

Enjoy your stay.

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Response to Decaffeinated (Reply #55)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 04:28 PM

123. Correction: Roads are for wheels, bikes included.

 

They have as much a right as a car to be on the roads.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #123)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 04:30 PM

125. and also follow the rules

 

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 01:53 PM

58. I want to get into cycling, and this has been a bit of an eye-opener for me

Obviously both sides need to improve their on-road behavior and look out for each other and do a better job following the law - motorists respecting cyclists, and cyclists respecting the law but as a motorist, I think a lot of the responsibility is on cyclists. There's that ad campaign of, "Start Seeing Motorcycles," which is fine, but if I'm going to start seeing them then people on motorcycles need to stop driving batshit insane - a bigger complaint for me right now than cyclists (although, I've seen my fair share of cyclists feeling like they can do whatever the hell they want).

TlalocW

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:04 PM

65. Generally, no.

 

But their militant hyperbole should be a mitigating factor at the trial.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:16 PM

75. One must first learn the #1 rule of the road, the one with the biggest wheels wins

 

everytime!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:22 PM

81. Dumb article title

 

Of course it's not okay. Most of them are accidents though.

Pretty simple, really. You ride in a car and hit another car, you have the protection of being surrounded in and protected by a metal frame. You ride on a cycle, you are protected by absolutely nothing. I only ride on paths physically separated from traffic in the street, either by barrier or distance.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #81)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:31 PM

92. My bicycle is perfectly safe until some driver of a deadly weapon decides

 

that the rules of the road don't apply to them. Every single time I have been nearly hit, I have been obeying the very letter of the law and the car has NOT.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #92)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 02:33 PM

95. How many drivers decide to murder you?

 

It's pretty simple, really. Those drivers aren't trying to kill you, they just don't see you. It's an accident.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #95)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:00 PM

105. Nope, I've had people try to intimidate me, throw things at me, try to scare me, and worse.


There are morons out there. If a person can't see a bicyclist, maybe it's time they give up driving.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #105)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:31 PM

115. Exactly. There's the clueless ones, and there's the vicious ones.

 

They're all murderers as far as I'm concerned.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #95)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:29 PM

114. They have all decided to not pay attention. They have all decided

 

that something else (hair, nails, cell phone, texting, eating, chatting) is more important than paying attention to where they are going in their deadly weapon and obeying all laws.

It's not an accident. It's willful gross negligence, and I call that murder.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #114)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 05:32 PM

136. It is the

"not paying attention"
part that bothers me too.



I cannot count the number of times, someone has come out of a driveway from a Gas Station, Market, whatever --they look at the road for cars, but NOT for bikes - I try to make eye contact, but...


We are out there people, like it or not
-please keep an eye out for us
Why do you think we wear such funny clothes?


peace,
kp

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Response to kpete (Reply #136)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 05:46 PM

138. These driveway dashers are terrifying for pedestrians, too.

 

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 03:17 PM

110. Of course it isn't "ok" to kill cyclists.

Any more than it's ok to kill motorists. Collisions happen. They happen between cars and they happen between cars and bikes. When a collision happens between a car and a bicycle, the bicycle is usually going to get the worst of it, regardless of who was at fault.

The fact is that deaths accidentally caused by motor vehicles just don't really that have huge a penalty, unless the driver was committing another crime at the time. Here in North Carolina, the penalty for misdemeanor death by motor vehicle was recently "toughened" to include up to 60 days in jail for the offender.....before that, it was a suspended sentence, probation, and loss of license for two years.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 04:26 PM

122. Short answer: NOOOOOOOO!!!!!

WTF is wrong with some people?

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 04:35 PM

126. Is it "OK" to T-bone safe drivers in cars? Is it "OK" to hit someone walking on a dark road with no

streetlights going eighty miles an hour...and not stop?

That's what I've been dealing with this last two months--two well-loved relatives, murdered by assholes, in two separate and distinct incidents....and no one's gone to court yet.

It's not just cyclists who are getting run over.

Assholes behind the wheel, not paying attention, texting, drunk, whatever, are the problem.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 04:57 PM

128. I've ridden 6 or 7 years now.

Mostly road riding here in the county (we're a road and Mt. bike county, with riders all year around) non riders hate us that's for sure. Of course I rarely ever ride without my LCP for safeties sake...I don't really worry about carrying an extra pound, normally during the biking season (I don't ride in the winter) I'll lose 7 pounds or so.

Every driver should be required to ride a bike on hardpan for a few weeks before they get behind the wheel.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 05:23 PM

131. Seems to me there are four problems here:

 

1) Stupid bicyclists.
2) Arrogant bicyclists.
3) Stupid drivers.
4) Asshole drivers.
Oh and maybe 5) Stupid pedestrians.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 07:27 PM

144. Absolutely not.

But I don't think it's too much to ask that they follow the same rules of the road for the rest of us. Stop signs and stop lights mean STOP. Not slow down to just below Tour de France speed and glide through an intersection, most times without looking. I have been in my car and also a passenger on a bus where that has happened -- more than once. It is not cool, and a situation that nobody has to be in if people just obey the damn laws of the road.

I will say that cities need to rethink the idea of "bike lanes," especially in downtown areas. Where I live, the some curb lanes downtown have been re-lined to allow for bikes. Hardly enough room for both cars and bikes to navigate safely. Also, the bike lanes come to an abrupt end.

There's a lot more work to be done in order for cars and bikes to coexist. But both obeying traffic laws would be a great first start.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sun Nov 10, 2013, 11:24 PM

149. I always just slow down when I am approaching people on bikes...

it was my exclusive form of transportation in my younger days and I loved it. I did always try to maintain situational awareness and I always assumed that car drivers would not. These days I would only venture on trails honestly because I have seen too many asshole drivers that show obvious disregard for cyclists. I never understood it, I love to see folks on bikes!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 01:54 PM

154. I am super careful when driving around someone on a bike

the same way I am when I see a squirrel by the side of the road, but honestly people on bikes can be as unpredictable as the squirrels. They swerve for some reason I can't see and even going really slowly, giving tons of room, and waiting until there's no oncoming traffic so I can pass with lots of space, they sometimes freak me out.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Mon Nov 11, 2013, 03:11 PM

157. Only in cyclist season

 

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