Blaming a 13yr old holding a toy is like blaming the Rape Victim for wearing a dress

[FreakinDJ]

Its the delusional SOB jumping to conclusions in his head who is at fault

What we do know is witnesses claim the officers only shouted drop the weapon once from inside their car. The officers failed to identify their selves as law enforcement as prescribe by Supreme Court Decisions governing lawful use of deadly force. The victim was given No Time to drop the toy. Andy Lopez was breaking no laws.

So when some one perceives in their own mind they have a Adult Gang Banger out on a mission with a REAL Weapon before they even approach the scene - THEY and they alone have acted/assumed improperly and are 100% at fault

just the same as if they see a woman wearing a dress and perceive "She Wants it" and Rape her

[leftyohiolib]

1. no it's not but thanks for playing the 'really bad analogies' game

[FreakinDJ]

3. Thanks for the lame Murder Apology

Justifying murdering kids is sick

[Nuclear Unicorn]

11. It's not justifying murder, it's pointing out a bad analogy.

You're bolstering a bad analogy with a false dichotomy.

I'm on record lamenting what I perceive as an escalation of police force against citizens who are not threats to themselves or anyone else.

The reason you analogy fails is because a rapist seeks out a victim. This was a crime in that the policies governing our police are geared confront violent criminals rather than being public servants -- who are also capable of confronting violent criminals if/when the need arises. Victims aren't raped because of bad policies and militant mindsets leading to tragic consequences.

We can (must) confront these outrageous acts of police brutality but bad analogies do more harm than good.

[FreakinDJ]

14. It was the perception in the shooters mind that caused this

he wasn't following any procedures when he exited that car.

If he was Andy would still be alive

[Nuclear Unicorn]

16. The police are becoming militarized.

They are not acting as public servants but as soldiers patrolling an occupied, hostile nation.

[Orrex]

19. What is proper procedure when someone points an apparently real weapon at a cop?

You seem to possess all of the facts, so I'm eager to hear your response.

Thanks!

[Lancero]

22. OP isn't here...

But according to OP, proper procedure would be for the cop to...

A) Do nothing

And

B) Pray they don't get shot

...Which is kind of ironic, since thats what a good number of people do when the police approach them.

[FreakinDJ]

24. The "Pointing" thingy is in dispute - or do apologist not recognise multiple witnesses

just the cop's testimony

[Orrex]

39. I can't speak for the apologists, and you didn't answer my question.

[FreakinDJ]

41. Bullet Trajectory proves he never "Pointed" the toy

so what am I supposed to explain that the victim supposedly did

[Orrex]

55. That wasn't the question

The question is this: What is proper procedure when someone points an apparently real weapon at a cop?

[FreakinDJ]

56. Doesn't apply to this case

Just exactly would be the point hypothesizing over some thing that didn't happen

Are you suggesting people be shot on sight just for holding such a weapon?

Because that is the point of my analogy - should people ASSUME the Victim's intentions by what they are HOLDING or WEARING

So far this proves my point

[Orrex]

60. As everyone in the thread has already observed, your analogy is bullshit

Therefore, rather than wasting time on your bullshit analogy, I have instead asked you a simple question that you are unable to answer.

Are you suggesting people be shot on sight just for holding such a weapon?

Nope. And instead of asking questions that have nothing to do with anything that I've posted, why don't you answer the question asked of you?

[FreakinDJ]

61. Every citizen has the Right to Defend themselves

But You have made it a point to infuse that into the conversation for what point

Would a citizen be in jail for shooting Andy Lopez that day - absolutely

Would the investigation be 100% transparent if a citizen had shot Andy Lopez - Absolutely

Would state laws allow the Sheriffs Dept to keep the results of their investigation secret - Not a Chance

Would have the FBI investigated the case for a Hate Crime rather then just assest the Sheriff's Whitewash - completely

[Orrex]

62. You still haven't answered the question that I asked. Why not?

[FreakinDJ]

65. His hand wasn't on the trigger - it doesn't apply

What - You want to ASSUME because he was holding a toy that this police officer chooses to percive as a threat that the child was in a firing position ?

Which is what an honest investigation should be concerned with. Even thou witnesses have come forth claiming the child was swinging it back and forth like the toy that it was

Your assumptions are quite telling of your mindet

[Orrex]

67. I want you to answer the question that I asked

What - You want to ASSUME because he was holding a toy that this police officer chooses to percive as a threat that the child was in a firing position?

Nope. Here is the question that I asked, which you still haven't answered:

[font size=3]What is proper procedure when someone points an apparently real weapon at a cop?[/font]

Your assumptions are quite telling of your mindet.

Well, your bullshit analogy is quite telling of your mindset, as many in this thread have already observed. It's also quite telling that you can't answer a simple question, which I will ask again:

[font size=3]What is proper procedure when someone points an apparently real weapon at a cop?[/font]

Do you understand? I'm not asking what the boy did or what the cop did or whether the real-looking "toy" weapon looked like a real weapon. What I am asking is this:

[font size=3]What is proper procedure when someone points an apparently real weapon at a cop?[/font]


Why do you refuse to answer?

[FreakinDJ]

74. I've answered the question repeatedly - you don't like the answer

Sorry - as the Op states "preconceived notions" are not accurate nor legal

[Orrex]

75. In which post did you answer it?

Obviously, you haven't.
You have posed numerous other questions and answered those while pretending that I had asked them.

You have not, however, answered my question.


So here's where we stand: you posted a bullshit analogy and have been repeatedly (and rightly) called out for it; you have been asked simple questions that you have refused to answer, and you have, Rumsfeld-style, posed/answered the questions that you would prefer to answer.

You aren't doing to well here. Care to try again, or would you rather just cut your losses and quit?

[FreakinDJ]

78. Every Citizen has the Right to Defend Theirself

Do you need me to explain THAT to make it anymore Clear to you - or are capable of comprehending that statement

Of course you might want elaborate what part of holding a toy is considered a lethal threat

[Orrex]

86. Amazingly, you still haven't answered my question.

You are arguing against a point that I haven't made, and you're upset that I'm not defending an argument that you have assigned to me. I'm not in any way inclined to answer your questions when you refuse to answer mine.

Here is my question:
[font size=3]What is proper procedure when someone points an apparently real weapon at a cop? [/font]

[FreakinDJ]

89. Amazing you still lack the ability to comprehend

Is the weapon a threat to life or property is the question you might be trying to fathom

Or how to tie your shoes - not really sure what level of comprehention you capable of at this point

But thanks for keeping my thread alive on the latest page

[Orrex]

92. I am more than happy to draw attention to your bullshit analogy.

However, I'm not asking about the child who was shot or the cop who shot him. Again, you are pretending that I asked a question that I didn't actually ask. Here is the what I am asking, and here is the question that you refuse (or are unable) to answer:

[font size=3]What is proper procedure when someone points an apparently real weapon at a cop? [/font]


If it makes you feel better, you're welcome to attempt to insult my intelligence, because that simply highlights your bullshit analogy and the fact that you still haven't answered the question.

[FreakinDJ]

93. Almost verbatim from SCOTUS decision

Governing the use of Lethal Force is what I told you TWICE and still you FAIL to comprehend

And yet again you have proven my point

Your preconceived notion of the events that took place that day. Your preconceived notions of how I should reply have eliminated ALL other options from transpiring

Now how is that not unlike the Rape Apologist

[Orrex]

94. You STILL aren't answering the question that I asked

You claim to have answered it twice. Tell me in which replies you answered. If you have any interest in intellectual honesty, you might cite the actual SCOTUS decision, so that all can benefit from your wisdom.

I have reviewed your posts in this sub-thread and have found nothing that approaches an answer to this question:

[font size=3]What is proper procedure when someone points an apparently real weapon at a cop? [/font]

Your preconceived notion of the events that took place that day. Your preconceived notions of how I should reply have eliminated ALL other options from transpiring

As I have stated repeatedly, I'm not asking about the child and I'm not asking about the cop. I'm asking a general question:

[font size=3]What is proper procedure when someone points an apparently real weapon at a cop? [/font]

I ask that you provide a clear, succinct answer, rather than referring to a court case (which you haven't actually cited) or claiming that you've already answered (which you haven't actually done). Plain and simple, post your answer to this question:

[font size=3]What is proper procedure when someone points an apparently real weapon at a cop? [/font]

Now how is that not unlike the Rape Apologist

Do you not see the difference? Truly? I am asking you to clarify a point by posing this question:

[font size=3]What is proper procedure when someone points an apparently real weapon at a cop? [/font]

I'm not justifying anyone's action nor advocating on anyone's behalf. I am asking a question, and you STILL aren't answering.

[seabeyond]

63. the analogy goes beyond bullshit and is offensive. i agree. to use rape in this manner is more

than weak

[Orrex]

68. How many times have we read about this?

Recent history is chock full of stories about women using their high heels and tight dresses to shoot up a school or mall or restaurant or military base or post office. The message is clear: women can't be trusted with sexy clothes!!!!1!

[seabeyond]

71. point

[reddread]

70. the difference between LEO/militarist kneejerks and 2nd Amendment buffs

I will take the 2nd Amendment backers over nutcase law enforcement zealots.
the racism is stronger with the LEO maniacs.

[NaturalHigh]

2. I don't know what you're talking about...

but that is a really offensive comparison.

[FreakinDJ]

5. about as offensive as murdering a 13yr old boy blaming a toy

[NaturalHigh]

7. Like I said...I have no idea what you're talking about.

[FreakinDJ]

9. This

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Justice-For-Andy-Lopez/662773033753360?hc_location=stream

[Duckhunter935]

18. look here

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/24/justice/california-fake-rifle-boy-killed/

Fake AK that looked very real and had the mandatory red muzzle tip illegally removed

[NaturalHigh]

20. Yes, that definitely looks real.

Looking at the picture, I can't tell which one is real and which one is fake.

[FreakinDJ]

35. Which is why Gelhaus thinks he can "Get Away with Murder"

Gelhaus had determined he was going to fire shots before he ever got out of the car

He was in a Brown Neighborhood. He had a Brown skinned Perp. ....

[Eleanors38]

50. The "gun" on the right looks as if it has a truncated barrel...

Is this where the bright orange section indicating a toy should be?

[tapermaker]

85. we could have used a cop like this guy

in the parking lot in Texas ,where there were gang members brandishing guns. I am sure the mothers against gun violence would have approved .

[left is right]

4. why would a kid holding a toy gun

think that anyone shouting “drop the weapon” was shouting at him?

[FreakinDJ]

6. Especially when they DON'T idfentiy their self as Law Enforcement

[cali]

8. no, it's not although I appreciate the point you're trying to make

some toy guns look awfully realistic. I don't know the one this particular child was carrying, but that seems beside the point. It's the specifics of the case that are so disturbig.

[FreakinDJ]

10. Some dresses look so sexy and inviting

I think the specifics in the case point to the cop's mind was made up before he got out of the car

[Nine]

12. Oh, come on.

Not the same thing at all.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

17. I think at this point

the OP is more interested in defending a bad analogy than making any valid point about this heinous tragedy -- or rape.

[cali]

13. cops are afraid of being shot which makes some of them trigger happy

rapists are not afraid of being physically harmed by a sexy dress. Unless your argument is that the gun plays the same role as a sexy dress, it doesnt work to well. And though I'm sure there are cops that get a rush out of shooting people, I don't see that as a factor here. They guy was, most likely, scared, amped on adrenalin and trigger happy. there's no excuse for that. It's my understanding he didn't even wait for his partner to get out of the car.

[FreakinDJ]

15. My point is - his mind was made up BEFORE he got out the car

shots would be fired

[JI7]

25. it is reasonable to fear guns, it's not reasonable to rape in any case

the cop was wrong to shoot the 13 year old.

but your comparison just sucks.

[FreakinDJ]

26. In BOTH cases they "See what they WANT to see"

They have a preconceived idea of some one else

They carry out their intended actions without thought for what the other person is doing or about to do

[JI7]

27. it's never ok to rape anyone

[jberryhill]

28. "Fear" and "criminal intent" are two entirely different motivations

An intent to commit an unconsented sexual act is a criminal intent, no matter how you slice it.

A reaction to a perceived threat is not a criminal intent.

Criminal violations, with certain limited exceptions, rely on the combination of criminal mental intent (mens rea) and action (actus reus).

To say that someone responded to a perceived threat, and was incorrect in that perception, is different from someone affirmatively acting on a criminal intent to engage in an unconsented sexual act.

That is why, subject to other conditions, "mistake of fact" is a criminal defense which seeks to establish lack of criminal intent.

[FreakinDJ]

29. The Bullet Trajectory proved he didn't point the toy at the cop

The sheriffs Dept. keeps referring to the 10 second time line for shots being fired. The apologist keep referring to that as well. that was the time lapse between when they reported on the radio to seeing Andy Lopez and when they called back to report shots fired

Witnesses claim as little as 3 seconds transpired between the time the car stopped tell Andy was shot. They also report the police yelled "Drop the Weapon" from inside the car and only once. No one even addresses the Supreme Court Decision governing Officers use of deadly force requiring officers to identify their self as Law Enforcement

The "Weapons Expert" Deputy Gelhaus can tell you from holding a toy gun by the stock to raising a weapon WITH Your Hand on the Pistol Grip TAKES 2 HANDS or some very fancy Western Style Gun Slinger crap that ALL the witnesses must have missed

NOPE - his mind was made up before he exited the car - shots were going to be fired

Hence my argument - his preconceived notion

[seabeyond]

64. wrong. as rapists fuck 80 yr old women, a rapist does not THINK about his victim. the victim is a

thing to be used. it is a bullshit and offensive and unmaintainable position for you to have.

you are working toward disgusting.

i was in the thread early i read the crap. but you keep pushing it further and further

[aikoaiko]

21. The police could have acted differently, but you're terrible at supporting the victim.

Last edited Mon Nov 11, 2013, 05:59 PM - Edit history (1)

Your analogy is weak. Nobody thinks Andy Lopez wanted to be shot.

At some point you really should acknowledge how a realistic looking airsoft AK47 could fool a reasonable person/police officer into thinking it was a real firearm.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

23. If you're looking to salvage your rape analogy WRT out-of-control police procedure and

an overly militant mindset, consider the man in New Mexico that was subjected to 2 body cavity searches, a colonoscopy and 3 forced enemas via a bogus probable cause affidavit to search for non-existent drugs.

[Throd]

30. You can kill someone with a dress?

[Crabby Appleton]

31. No it's not - I miss unrec. nt

[Ohio Joe]

32. gun nuts will justify any violence to keep their guns

It matters not who or how many get murdered, their fear overrides everything.

[FreakinDJ]

33. ^^^^ THIS ^^^^

Doesn't matter it was a 13yr old boy

[Eleanors38]

53. ^^^AND THIS^^^is the real intent of your OP.

[Tikki]

34. I agree with the OP…this child was wearing a hoodie and carrying a toy type gun…that in itself….

should not be enough to cause a law enforcement official to gun down first and ask questions later…


Tikki
there are all kinds of ways that policeman could have approached the situation...

[Duckhunter935]

36. sorry it was not a toy type gun

It is an air-soft gun that looked very real and had the required red identifying tip removed.

[FreakinDJ]

37. Sorry your excuse was "She was wearing a sexy dress"

You have got to be kidding me

[Tikki]

38. The fact is this was a kid and and it was a toy and the only solution was to shoot first!!!???...

Shoot first…this was a cop with lots of resources at hand…and this was his first and only solution..

This was not correct, appropriate or crucial action in any way...

Tikki

[1000words]

40. Rigorous defense of a feeble analogy.

[Decaffeinated]

42. That is just a terrible comparison...

Morally offensive to rape victims as well... Stay classy...

[FreakinDJ]

45. Disturbing folks here want to justify shooting children

If the shooter had been a civilian (not hiding behind the Sheriffs "Cone of Silence&quot they would most definitely be behind bars awaiting court.

In California you can not shoot some one in the back for holding a REAL Weapon if they pose no threat to other persons. Yet we've had quite a few "Murder apologist" on here claiming "I would have shot him if he came on my property with that thing"

Which reminds me more of how they used to treat Blacks in the South 100 yrs ago

[Bazinga]

46. This fallacy is rampant in the gun control arguments.

It appears from time to time on the pro-gun side as well, usually in the form of "if you want to make it harder to get guns, you must be a freedom hating authoritarian."

In this thread you repeatedly try to frame those who take issue with your poor analogy as "murder apologists."

Obviously one can be for an increase in firearms regulation without wanting to take a match to the constitution, and similarly one can disagree with a tactless analogy without wanting 13 year olds to get shot.

In fact, if I remember correctly (and i have the link to show I do) you are the only one talking about this case who HAS wished harm on children.

So do be careful claiming "if you think X, you must be Y."

[Decaffeinated]

47. This is basically you...

This shooting is just like pedophilia and anyone who disagrees must love to touch children.

It's almost offensive just for being so transparent.

[DeSwiss]

43. Exactly.

- You're right. Speak your truth, and screw everything else.

K&R

[Norrin Radd]

44. The word "rape" in our culture is now sacred.

You are never to utter it under any circumstances or contexts.

[cali]

54. huh? what is it you're trying to say?

[Iggo]

82. the fuck?

[Nine]

48. Any time you openly carry a firearm or a convincing firearm replica around in public...

...you're already creating a bad situation from the get go. How many stories have we had about people doing such a thing? There was the guy walking around outside a school, the guy who took a gun into Walmart or someplace, the large group of "protesters" outside the Mothers Demand Action meeting. What if those guns had been fake? What if the had been unloaded? Would that have changed the dynamics of the situation any? People would still be just as justifiably frightened and intimidated. Would you want kids to be able to carry "toy" guns like the one that kid had into your own kid's school? I sure as hell wouldn't. Would I shoot that kid if I saw him on my property? No, because I don't own a gun. But I would definitely lock the doors, go to the safest place I could find, and call the police. In case you missed watching the news for the last, oh let's just go back 20 years, kids that young have been known to kill people, even go on killing rampages.

Did the police respond appropriately to the situation? Perhaps not. But it's completely disingenuous to keep going on about how it was just a "kid with a toy gun." A 13-year-old with a gun is just as dangerous as a 19-year-old with a gun. And an object that is designed to look exactly like a firearm IS a firearm for all intents and purposes, just like a loaded and unloaded firearm are the same thing if you're not the one in a position to know.

It boggles my mind how things can be turned completely upside down around here. Now if you object to people walking around in public with a firearm or a convincing firearm replica, that makes you a gun nut.

[B Calm]

49. +1 Couldn't agree more!

[FreakinDJ]

58. Those cases you cited the Police did not Assume

Probably because the folks holding the Real Weapons were White

So here we have a Latino child gunned down for doing nothing illegal what so ever and apologist after apologist comes on here blaming the Victim.

The only other cases in memory where folks attempt to blame the victim so vigorously the come to mind are Rape cases where thankfully that type of defense is not allowed in court

[Nine]

72. If, as you claim, the Police didn't assume firearms were real in those other cases, they're fools.

But I'm sure they DID assume they were real and loaded, even when the people carrying them were White.

As to blaming the victim, a person can create a dangerous situation without intending to, and this is especially true of kids because they lack adult judgment. A four-year-old can create a dangerous situation by chasing a ball into a busy street.

Maybe from Andy Lopez's point of view, he was just going down the street with a toy, but from an outsider's perspective he was holding a real weapon. And that's because the toy he was holding looked just like the real thing, not because he was Latino. The era where kids can walk around their neighborhoods with toy guns and have play gunfights ended a few decades ago. Not sure how you missed it. It ended because of all the real gun violence affecting this country, including gun violence coming from or directed at kids of all races and income levels. I have a white, elementary-school-age son and I would never let him go around our low-crime, suburban neighborhood with a "toy" like Andy Lopez had.

The police response is a separate issue. Did they ID themselves? Did they give the kid enough time to respond? Did they continue shooting him after he was down? Those and other questions are very important. But the one thing the police did not do wrong, in my opinion, was assume that the weapon Andy Lopez had was real and loaded and that Andy Lopez himself had the potential to use it. Because that's the world we live in now.

The gun nuts who bring their guns to protests, to stores, to schools, etc. are being disingenuous assholes when they say, "Oh we're not threatening anyone, we're not trying to intimidate people, we're just going about our day exercising our second amendment rights." Because walking around with a gun, or what looks like a gun, IS threatening. Andy Lopez may not have had that intent but the effect was the same, and I agree that's tragic. Criticize the Police response all you want, but you only weaken your case when you keep repeating, "he was just a kid with a toy."

[FreakinDJ]

84. His hand would have to be on the Pistol Grip

Which by witness accounts it was not.

So should the Weapons Expert Gelhaus professes to be in his writings and the initial statements he gave at the scene mean he should know this

[Nine]

91. As I've said repeatedly, I'm not defending the police response.

I haven't followed it enough to have an informed opinion on it. But I adamantly believe that it is a terrible idea for people to be openly carrying guns (or in this case a convincing replica of a gun) around in public and this is a perfect, tragic illustration of why.

If you're going to say that Andy Lopez should not have been regarded as threatening because he never had the intent to do harm, then you're also going to have to say that about all the gun nuts who bring their guns with them to political protests or near elementary schools, and I am not going to say that. Those people may be staying just within the law but what they are doing is terribly foolish and dangerous and the laws should, in my opinion, be changed. You should not be allowed to parade through an airport with a rifle over your shoulder. I don't want people with guns that look like the one Andy had walking through my neighborhood.

If the police officer who shot Andy Lopez made a bad shoot, he should face the consequences for that. The only thing I object to is the implication that the police were not allowed to have any response at all. Because that feeds right into the gun nuts who want to flaunt their guns everywhere they go and if people object or the police are called, they act like they're victims who are being treated as criminals just based on what they are carrying.

[Blue_Tires]

73. Somehow the kid in this story manged to NOT get shot:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023978976

And this was just TWO days after the LAX shootings

[Nine]

76. So what?

The father and son in that story are not identified by ethnicity. They could also be Latino... or anything else. Even if they're white, what does it prove? People rightly panicked when they entered the airport. They were confronted by six police officers who kept a distance of 10 feet. No one said, "Oh it's fine. They're white." And in their case, the handgun was holstered and the rifle was slung over the shoulder. Did Andy Lopez have his toy gun slung over his shoulder or was he carrying it in a ready-to-shoot position? There are a million reasons why the police responses in these two cases could be different, and I'm certainly not ruling out that the cop who shot Lopez was trigger-happy. I won't even rule out that race could have played a factor, but that's a long way from saying race is the ONLY possible reason it could have happened the way it did.

As I said, criticize the Police response in the Andy Lopez case you want. Just stop pretending that 13-year-olds are never violent with guns or that there is any important difference between a real loaded gun, a real unloaded gun, or a realistic replica of a gun from the perspective of a bystander or a responding police officer.

[Blue_Tires]

77. I'm pretty sure if they weren't white, they would have been arrested at the minimum

and a MUCH bigger story would have been made of it...

[Nine]

81. The news readers said they didn't do anything illegal.

I think the father there was probably a typical teabagger gun nut. The eyewitness described their demeanor as smug, as though they knew exactly how far they could go to stay just within the law... and I believe the eyewitness, a gun owner herself, got it exactly right. If you wanted to bet me the father and son were white, I wouldn't take that bet because my guess is they probably were. But we don't know that for certain. None of this has anything to do with the fact that people are being disingenuous when they say Andy Lopez was just a kid with a toy. Kids can kill, and toys that look just like real guns are just as threatening as the real thing.

[DrDan]

51. that has to rate as one of the all-time bad analogies

[California_here]

52. Dresses cannot look a lot like a lethal weapon

A cop could never feel threatened by a dress.

[LiberalArkie]

57. We are so screwed up

I remember as a kid, playing cops and robbers in our neighborhood. A police officer drove up to see one of our neighbors. He came out and we were shooting away with our cap pistols. One of my friends shot him and he did one of the best movie dying scenes ever.

But, that was when the police were real men not the bullies we have today.

[gopiscrap]

59. yup

[L0oniX]

66. I'm glad these pigs weren't around when I was a kid.

I, my cousins and neighbourhood friends used to play cops and robbers, cowboys and Indians and mock up war games. Toy guns with rolls of caps were the thing to have. Today we'd all be killed by the pigs. I know ...things were different in those days but ...wow ...they really were different. Not saying that they were the good ol days but in comparison we are a really fucked up country (and world) today.

[rrneck]

69. Got a link? nt

[Xyzse]

79. I don't understand...

I was reading this a bit in regards to this kid. Seems senseless when something like this is allowed:


Why would a kid get shot, even if they are waving that toy around.
These guys with real guns at the ready and as a group, did not get police called up on them.

[FreakinDJ]

80. I thought the police were called

[Xyzse]

83. I am still looking things up in both cases.

From what I was hearing on the case about a group of men with guns that are there to threaten a group of women, it seems that the owner refused to call the police.

[FreakinDJ]

87. I would have thought

The ladies inside would have called themselves from a cell phone

- which makes it all the more disturbing

[Xyzse]

88. After looking further they did.

Police refused to do anything citing that the Open Carry group were not breaking any laws.

Apparently, putting guns at the ready does not constitute threatening or intimidating people for bodily harm.

[FreakinDJ]

90. Not at all if your White