How bad is the Intellectual Property Rights Chapter of the TPP? Beyond odious and beneath contempt

[cali]

and driven almost entirely by the this administration.

Here's a link to the leaked document.

http://www.wikileaks.org/tpp/

Some lowlights:

The leaked chapter features proposals for setting a new “floor” for copyright duration, ranging from the already problematic U.S. term of life of the author plus 70 years to an incredible life of the author plus 100 years, proposed by Mexico. Such bloated term lengths benefit only a vanishingly small portion of available works, and impoverish the public domain of our collective history. The U.S. is also pushing for countries to embrace terms lengths of 95 years for corporate and 120 years for unpublished works.

<snip>

Intermediary liability

The newly leaked text reveals substantial disagreement over the language on copyright liability for Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and other online platforms. The February 2011 leak contained extensive language that would have imposed regulatory requirements to police users’ activities online and paved the way for systems like three-strikes take down policies and ISPs filtering and blocking access to websites that allegedly infringe or facilitate copyright infringement.

Even though the text appears to be very much in flux, it’s clear from the leaked chapter that Canada is pushing back hard against U.S. pressure to adopt draconian copyright enforcement measures. A majority of countries appear to be proposing language that would give them some flexibility to limit the liability of ISPs, so they can develop enforcement frameworks that best suit their national laws and priorities. That flexibility is essential to staving off copyright enforcement laws that in practice would violate users’ free speech and privacy. And yet the U.S., backed by Australia, opposes this language.

<snip>

Patents

The leaked draft reveals that the US is pushing hard for provisions expanding the reach of patent law and limiting ways in which a patent may be revoked. These proposals are meeting widespread opposition from the other participants. For example, the U.S. proposes—and nearly every other nation opposes—that patents be made available for inventions that are “plants and animals.”

<snip>

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/11/tpp-leak-confirms-worst-us-negotiators-still-trying-trade-away-internet-freedoms


Thanks to WikiLeaks, we see just how bad TPP trade deal is for regular people

Among the many betrayals of the Obama administration is its overall treatment of what many people refer to as "intellectual property" – the idea that ideas themselves and digital goods and services are exactly like physical property, and that therefore the law should treat them the same way. This corporatist stance defies both reality and the American Constitution, which expressly called for creators to have rights for limited periods, the goal of which was to promote inventive progress and the arts.

In the years 2007 and 2008, candidate Obama indicated that he'd take a more nuanced view than the absolutist one from Hollywood and other interests that work relentlessly for total control over this increasingly vital part of our economy and lives. But no clearer demonstration of the real White House view is offered than a just-leaked draft of an international treaty that would, as many had feared, create draconian new rights for corporate "owners" and mean vastly fewer rights for the rest of us.

I'm talking about the appalling Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement, a partial draft of which WikiLeaks has just released. This treaty has been negotiated in secret meetings dominated by governments and corporations. You and I have been systematically excluded, and once you learn what they're doing, you can see why.

<snip>

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/13/trans-pacific-paternership-intellectual-property

The TPP is overwhelming evidence of how corporate this President and this administration are.

It's disgraceful.

[cantbeserious]

1. Obama - The Corporatist That Never Stops Giving

eom

[billhicks76]

15. This is horrific

Just read RawStory.com's article about TPP and it's so bad I can't believe I ever trusted Obama. TPP contains basically a corporate wish list of powers that were denied earlier in the face of massive public opposition so Obama is trying to fast track it in secret? All the Tea Party opposition to Obama is just theater to distract us from the FACT that he is enabling corporate funded Republican policies. It's a disgrace. We are a disgrace for not supporting more actual progressives.

[kelliekat44]

17. This just didn't start with the Obama administration although I am surprised that they would further

this draconian measures. Back in the 80-90's this stuff began to take hold as the human genome project and technology transfer laws were enacted. In her career as Director of the NIH Dr. Bernadine Healy tried desperately to keep researchers from patenting loads of drugs and gene sequences discovered and produced with tax-payer money that funded most of this research. Of course, she met stiff opposition from the " corporate-loving" men involved in the research and their buddies in the Congress who were owned by the drug industry. Go back and check the history. Dr. Healy was painted as a "failure" and not a team players. It is really hurtful to see the Obama administration supporting these measures as it screws the taxpayer on all levels. I just wonder if the President really knows what is going on with this. How much of this has he turned over to his minions? Is it too late to change our position?

[cali]

21. It's absurd to think that the President doesn't know anything about the TPP

and if he doesn't, that's nearly as bad.

[840high]

51. He knows.

[jsr]

2. Well, the president is probably not familiar with legal documents and such

[n2doc]

6. That's probably closer to the truth than you think

Obama's style is to delegate such things to subordinates, while he sets the big direction stuff. To a very large degree, given what he himself has said about his lack of knowledge on NSA spying and other matters.

[WinkyDink]

13. It's why they coined the term "Plausible Deniability."

[LuvNewcastle]

3. Selling us down the river

I have a special kind of contempt reserved for people who say all the nice words and act as if they care while they work behind the scenes to destroy everything those people depend on to have a tolerable life.

[madrchsod]

4. here we thought a republican president would sell us out

but no, it`s another so called democrat.billy and barack are just two peas in a pod.

oh well ,the other guy would have been worse

[bklyncowgirl]

33. This may have been the price our corporate overlords demanded for Obama winning the presidency

I've always thought that the only reason that Clinton got in was NAFTA, that and the various changes to the banking laws, e.g. repeal of Glass Steagal, that would speed up the already ongoing shift of wealth from the American people to the upper class, things that would never in a million years have passed under a Republican president.

Perhaps this is why Obama was allowed to be elected. We get a president who is a liberal on social issues. We get an extension of health care access to the previously uninsured.

While these are no small things, the powers that be get a recovery that has largely benefited themselves and further progress toward us becoming a banana republic with a tiny elite, a large poverty stricken populace and precious little in between.

Perhaps also, this is the best we can hope for. Like it or not no anyone the powers that be do not deem suitably sympathetic to their world vision will almost certainly never be elected president.

I always hate it when my cynicism turns out to be justified. That being said, I voted for Obama twice. Given the same choices I would do so again. I'd hope to support a progressive populist in the primaries but if Hillary Clinton is the Democratic nominee I will vote for her despite her corporate sympathies.

At any rate, I'll be contacting my congresscritters about this but with little optimism. My Senators, Menendez and Booker are corporate Democrats and my congressman is a Republican.

[Laelth]

5. k&r for exposure. n/t

-Laelth

[fasttense]

7. How to give away citizen's rights to corporations in one easy step.

It's amazing that all these laws, rules and policies that will substantially affect a person's everyday life are being decided in secret by a bunch of corporate tools. It's as if corporations have found a new, secret way to destroy a citizen and the US is just so happy to go along. No longer do citizens even have input and even the 9 kings on the Supremes can't change it.

"This is a classic example of policy laundering, whereby corporate interests use secretive international forums to trump the democratic process at the national level."

[WinkyDink]

10. Those who laughed at "New World Order conspiracy" theories, ought to re-think their position.

Even Bush41 used the term, and he ought to know.

[cali]

8. and those here who throw hissy fits over any criticism of President Obama

scurry off whenever this topic appears. It demonstrates what they really are.

Hissy fits is really the wrong term here. It's far worse than that.

[zeemike]

19. Yes, it really is intimidation.

not just a hissy fit.
But I suspect that they are working on a explanation for it that will tell us it is really good for us.

[cali]

22. I'm sick of those chickenshit apologists

where are they on this?

Oh yeah. CHICKEN

[zeemike]

24. Probably huddled together trying to find a way to get this post locked.

Because if you can't argue against something then censor it...like it is a conspiracy theory and should not be in GD.

[cali]

25. oh the apologists and adorers really hate, hate hate

any talk of the TPP.

It exposes the President for the corporate creature that he is.

and they can't bear that.

As far as I'm concerned, his pushing this down our throats pretty much says it all.

[cui bono]

38. wikileaks is bad, mmkay?

They broke the law... they are treasonous and they probably have bad girlfriends and live in a communist country.

Did I miss anything?

[zeemike]

40. The boxes in the garage.

And the fact that the girl friend was ...a poll dancer.

[cui bono]

41. Which in this political climate with election issues is much worse than

a pole dancer.


Sorry, couldn't resist.

[zeemike]

42. I have had poll dancers in my dreams.

I did not think it was so bad...I recommend it in fact.

I could not resist ether...

[WinkyDink]

9. No hope that this won't become a reality. The secrecy is, ironically, revealing.

[cali]

11. I disagree. I think there is some hope

and the fight has just begun.

[WinkyDink]

14. Maybe it's because I just read the "Pharmaceuticals//TPP" thread.

[Faryn Balyncd]

12. Patent/copyright law ALREADY makes a mockery of constitutional intent, & deserves REPEAL.

Patents & copyrights have far exceeded constitutional intent, which is expressed in Article 1, Section 8, of the Constitution, without which patents & copyright have no constitutional basis.

Article 1, Section 8 states:

(The Congress shall have Power...)...
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.

An indication of what the framers thought reasonable for the "limited Times" can be seen by the Copyright Act of 1790, which granted copyright protection for 14 years.

But under the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act, bought & paid for by corporate lobbyists, copyright protection was EXTENDED RETROACTIVELY to 95 years after publication, and to 70 years after the death of the creator, or, for corporations, 120 years after creation.

The greatest mockery of the Constitution is that retroactively extending protection for works that were willingly created (and offered to the public under terms far more favorable to the public, and even retroactively extending protection for many more years for works acquired by non-creating corporate speculators under law which granted for lesser years of protection), does NOTHING "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts", but only serves to give a windfall to the current owners of such works.




In practice, "intellectual property" law is perverse: granting protection to "Happy Birthday" to a non-creating corporation (Warner/Chappell Music) until 2030 for a song which evolved, dating to at least 1893, and published in the public domain as early as 1912.......... and also granting copyright protection to the current owners of "This Land Is Your Land", despite Woody Guthrie's explicit copyright notice

"This song is Copyrighted in U.S., under Seal of Copyright # 154085, for a period of 28 years, and anybody caught singin it without our permission, will be mighty good friends of ourn, cause we don't give a dern. Publish it. Write it. Sing it. Swing to it. Yodel it. We wrote it, that's all we wanted to do."

(and the fact that the copyright was not renewed by the then-owners in 1972.)




Intellectual property law has been perverted to the extent that it no longer serves "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts", but only to enrich corporate interests, often non-creating corporate interests, and even interests whic have acquired those rights through fraud or the bribing of lawmakers. It certainly does not "promote the general welfare", or advance other goals of the framers.

We would be better off if all "intellectual property" law were repealed.

Pushing for even more draconian law, secretly, under the guise of a TPP "trade agreement" is a mockery of constitutional intent, and a betrayal.

[RC]

16. To our overlords, the Constitution really is just a antiquated piece of paper in a museum somewhere.

The words meaning nothing. So much for a Constitutional scholar as President.

[Pakid]

18. A government can only get away with what the people allow it to do

We can stand up to the rich and there corporate buddies and put a stop to this if we really want to. We have the ability and power to bring them to there knees if we do it wisely. Think about this all of there money comes from us either buying there goods or working for them. What happens if we all cut back on our spending this Xmas by lets say 50% and let them know why we are doing it and that we will not be buying goods made in lets say China. Yes in the short term it will hurt some of our fellow citizen but in the long run we will all be better of for it. As a bonus if we don't buy China goods at some point they just might have to start making those item here!

[ancianita]

20. It's criminal--corporate governments for the world, corporate 'rights' for regular people.

The TPP has existed since 2005. Perhaps any presumptive presidential nominee faced pressure to deal with its signatories, no matter who won the 2008 election.

If the TPP ever reaches the regular people level of public discussion, it will be clear to them that "rights" will only be determined by corporate governments' market values, that their UN Convention of Human Rights will never be guaranteed, that the Constitution will be an historical, not living, document, and concepts like "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" will be locally preserved as a vestige of history.

I wonder if the latest grousing from both sides of the congressional aisles is going to prevent the TPP's implementation. They're probably so hard line partisan right now that they won't unite to oppose this in any meaningful way. If they do unite, it's probably for crass reasons, like not knowing if their pay-to-play gravy train will keep running.

Just a citizen musing here.

[marmar]

23. k/R ..... To me, this is THE most pressing issue -- killing this monstrosity.

nt

[cali]

26. I agree.

and I don't think there are any excuses for it.

None.

[mathematic]

27. Stronger intellectual property rights disproportionally benefit americans

Compared to the rest of the world. People like to say "we don't make anything here anymore" (not true, of course). Many of the things we do make are cultural or technological and would have greater international protection with stronger copyright or patent laws.

It's easy to say that intellectual property protections are bad if your economic output does not depend on copyright or patents. How is that any different than saying you prefer to buy cheaply manufactured consumer goods from china than higher priced american manufactured goods if you don't work at a factory?

[JackRiddler]

43. You are confusing "Americans" with "corporations"

like Disney and Monsanto and certain pharms that tend to have "American" cover identities or headquarters in the U.S., but are simply in it for the profit and market share, and don't give a shit about "Americans" or any other kind of human being that does not contribute to profit and market share. Corporations that pay taxes where they like and move assets as they like, and that generally produce poisonous bullshit for mind and body, which they sell as if it were nutritious gold for both.

[Generic Other]

28. A copyright lawyer's notes on reading the TPP draft

--Some countries want more protection for geographical indications, which are rights to names based on location (like how sparkling wine is only "champagne" if it's from Champagne France). The US seems not to really care about this.

--It provides for a big increase in the kinds of things that can be patented in ways that could harm the pace of innovation, consumers, and smaller companies. Newly patentable things would include plants, animals,biological processes, video game rules, methods of mental processes, software itself, artwork, books, and more. The US already allows some of these, but other countries don't, and nobody allows patents for some of them.

--There's a way to re-patent already known or previously patented stuff as long as you claim the stuff has a new use. The US also wants standards for granting patents to be relaxed a bit compared to many countries' current requirements and patent terms to be made effectively longer by not counting long delays between when the patent was first filed and when it was granted (which can take years in some cases) toward the total patent term.

--There are some reasons for a country to not allow a patent to be used (aka exploited), like dire health circumstances, but not, as it says, "merely because the exploitation is prohibited by their law."

--Penalties for many kinds of copyright infringement and circumvention of technological protections like DRM would be increased. Some of these rules would require countries to install penalties like the US currently has, while others criminalize and penalize more severely than anyone currently does.

http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1qj6xd/wikileaks_releases_the_secret_negotiated_draft/


A patent on MENTAL PROCESSES??? Yes. While it won't effect any Republicans it does effect thinking people. Guess I will patent the alphabet. Or Arabic numerals? I think maybe we know who will sue to reclaim rights to these. Make thinking a thought crime based on patent infringement! Patents rather than copyrights on surgical procedures, mathematical formulas, artistic creations, books. So if I patent addition and subtraction, landscape paintings of my mountain (hey I live by the Olympics) I can sue a certain organization for stealing my geographic right to name stuff after my area. After all, only athletes from my area should be free to call themselves Olympic athletes. Or maybe Greece will sue my state and force us to change the name of the mountain and our capital. In fact a whole bunch of cities in America have stolen geographic names from other countries. Guess this will be a lucrative way for the Greeks to re-fill their treasury.

I would or be pissed, but I fear I would have to pay royalties for the right to my own biological processes! If I quote someone in a post, I will be violating their rights. No more fair use. Sing happy birthday in your family video on youtube? Hell no. You will be pirating someone's music and they will seize your computer and destroy it, then sue you for monetary damages as well as potential jailtime.

We need to really shoot this stupid idea down. And before you start swearing, I have a patent pending on all cuss words. So there.

We will all be criminals under this new system.

[idwiyo]

29. k&r

[rhett o rick]

30. Please consider putting a link to your TPP posts in the Progressive Group

http://www.democraticunderground.com/126999

We are trying to keep a listing of the latest TPP info in one place for reference.

Thanks for all your posts.

[Blue Owl]

31. K&R

[Demo_Chris]

32. rec

[jazzimov]

34. Wait a minute - you actually SUPPORT taking money away from

individuals?

Of course, when I studied Copyright Law in college the law was "life + 50". I'm glad it was raised, and would love to see it raised again.

By reducing the Copyright Intellectual Property period, you are literally taking money away from the heirs of the author. All fair use is already covered, so putting it in the public domain only takes away potential revenue from the heirs of the Copyright owner.

I encourage everyone to go to the link and actually READ this section of the proposals for themselves, instead of believing ridiculous "interpretations" such as this one.

For one thing, you'll see that almost nothing has been "agreed to" - there are lots of different proposals along with opposition for almost everything in it. Personally, I think it's DOA.

[cali]

45. I encourage you to develop a deeper understanding of why so many countries

have strong objections to such extensions.

and no, I don't agree with heirs getting royalties a 100 years on. 50 years was just fine.

[cali]

49. you support this shit???

<snip>

A draft, published by Wikileaks, offers a patent-and-copyright wish list that would see the infamous DMCA automatic take-downs spread throughout the Pacific, plants and animals become patentable with few restrictions, and pharmaceutical companies empowered to tax citizens by way of patent evergreening.


With political candidacy off the table for now, Wikileaks has returned to the business of publishing leaked documents with a bang: it has posted the current negotiating text of the proposed Trans Pacific Partnership treaty.

The TPP is a document supposed to harmonise intellectual property protections in participating nations – America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Malaysia, Vietnam, Brunei, Singapore, Chile and Peru. Instead, it looks like a an Australia-US-Japan club force-marching the treaty into America's favoured position on nearly everything, from criminalisation of copyright infringements through to a blank cheque for pharmaceutical companies.

The document, here, is huge, but some of the key items include:

Criminalisation of copyright infringement by all signatories;
Stronger DRM and “technological protection measure” regimes;
ISPs to be made liable for copyright infringement on their networks;
A “take it down first, argue later” DMCA-like process for notifying copyright infringements;
Patentable plants and animals;
The evergreening of patents – this has become particularly notorious in the pharmaceutical business, where the repackaging of an out-of-patent medication is used to keep common compounds out of the public domain.

America and Japan are opposing consumer protections proposed by the other nations (Australia excepted). These provisions, in Article QQ.A.9, would be designed to prevent the abuse of copyright processes, use of intellectual property rights as a restraint of trade or as the basis of anticompetitive practises.''

<snip>

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/13/wikileaks_posts_tpp_text/

[Volaris]

54. i call dibs on the patenting of weasels,

That way whenever a Republican goes on television and says something, well, "republican", they will have to pay me money for using the image of themself that I now own.

[progressoid]

56. Clever but

you're confusing patents and copyrights. Two different things.

[Generic Other]

60. No, the draft says patents to extend to books, artwork and mental processes

while Repubs have few mental processes to claim...

[eridani]

57. Being an heir of an author isn't some kind of accomplishment that deserves respect.

Any heir directly connected to an author is already taken care of by lifetime + 50 years.

[WillyT]

35. K & R !!!

[treestar]

36. the first paragraph alone contains an issue

about how long copyrights should be. Why are we to assume those numbers of years are too long? I see that is a person's opinion, but how do we know unless we hear both sides?

Every other provision is subject to that, too.

[boomersense]

37. This is not something we can stop with calls to congresspeople or

garish signs in some park. We will have to be in the street with shovels and rakes or risk losing sovereignty. The financial section will allow the facists to simply take money from our bank accounts to pay back the derivative holders. And drones? They'll be everywhere. This is the final aim of the NWO folks who regard us all as serfs.

[cali]

61. no, that's not true. there is considerable sentiment in the House against

Fast Track (TPA). No fast track, no TPP.

[boomersense]

63. Fast Track, yes. I'm talking about any vehicle by which

TPP gets passed.

[cali]

64. How would it pass without fast track?

Presumably the President could still put it up for a Senate vote, but that's pretty unlikely.

[boomersense]

65. It can't right now. But the way things are going with the fascist string-pullers

gaining strength, I'm worried about it passing it through the normal legislative process and endure the same fate as it looks like entitlements are near having. But, for right now, you are probably right.

[Whisp]

39. I am going to wait for more information

I been down this misinformation road so many times, I can count the pebbles. So sorry if I'm not going to join you in foaming until some real facts come out.

[Maedhros]

52. Umm...leaked documents aren't "real"?

This isn't some "anonymous administration official" making scurrilous claims. This is the actual negotiated draft text for the entire TPP (Trans-Pacific Partnership) Intellectual Property Rights Chapter. That's as real as it gets.

[JackRiddler]

44. This thing must be killed, no compromises.

[cali]

47. can you believe the number of people coming out of the woodwork here and

supporting this- including the odious copyright extensions.

disgusting corporate lovers.

[Generic Other]

62. Seriously

Our founding fathers established protections for 14 years knowing that it impedes progress, undermines culture and actually encourages the loss of work to extend it much beyond. In order to protect Mickey Mouse, we have made unavailable the bulk of the work written or created in the 20th century, work that no one claims or asserts rights on. Even so, no one else dares use such material in case someone comes forward to sue for infringement.

If we had these TPP rules in place, the only printed books today would be the Gutenberg Bible. Everyone else would be violating the rights to the patent for presses and the process for binding books, maybe even the language itself. Even monks in monasteries creating illuminated manuscripts would be sued. We would not have been able to build a better mousetrap because it would mean we stole the mental processes or mathematical formulas of others to do so. God forbid you dared have an original idea at work. Corporations would claim it. Yeah, I am exaggerating maybe, but maybe not.

Lifesaving medicines would be patented and unavailable to the poor. Even if the need is great. Smallpox, polio, HIV/AIDS would surge because no country could legally make the vaccine without paying some big pharma company enormous sums. Hell, I wouldn't put it past big pharma to patent blood types, DNA. Surgeons would not be allowed to use earlier surgical procedures without paying royalties. Schools wouldn't be able to even afford to teach them the procedures. Good luck on your operation folks. It just got astronomically harder and more costly.

And what about 3-D printers? What the hell are they but copiers? Just don't copy anything without paying someone for the right? Pay thousands for the right to make a 10 dollar prosthetic device for a child? Do not even think of copying a gun or a coffee mug with mickey's face on it. The corporations will go after the 3-D printer itself like they tried to do with copy machines, tape recorders, CD writers.

Even fair use is to be redefined as each country wishes. And they will reclaim material from public domain! Some people think the world somehow benefits when we have no right to build on the works of others. Those people should shut up because they did not invent the language they speak, nor the materials they use to create, nor the ideas they claim as their own. In fact their teachers should insist they pay lifetime limited use royalties for the knowledge they were provided. That alphabet was patented by someone before them. No one can write any form of genre literature that isn't derivative of someone else. All literature is derived from a finite number of plots. Comedy or tragedy. Stolen from the Greeks. Even Shakespeare created derivative works. All music relies on sequences of notes. Don't even think of playing anyone else's music in any form without pay per play. And expect to pay the owners of the sheet music too. All the recorded music of the 20th century off limits unless you pay. Don't try and find the chords on line either. Or ever think you can learn to play an instrument without paying someone for the right.

And don't try and quote bits of others' works in an article or a school report thinking it is fair use. Not on DU, or as a student, or even as a news analyst. You are stealing and will be sued -- possibly successfully.

The TPP went so far overboard, we should be incensed at the theft of cultural property they propose. In UK, they still assert copyright of the King James version of the Bible. And you can't perform Peter Pan without paying royalties because the government granted it "special" status. How long before Disney asserts such rights? Mickey Mouse theirs forever. Fine. Let them have it. But leave all the rest of us alone.

How long before someone literally patents our senses and sues if we view, hear, smell, taste or touch anything that is protected without paying first? Don't make that food. You don't have the right. Don't smell that flower. We own the scent. That blue sky color is patented. How dare you look.

RESIST the wholesale theft of our history, culture and rights.

[woo me with science]

46. Representative government, my ass.

[KG]

48. oh, c'mon. the TTP is all about exporting soybeans! what ya got against soybeans?

[blkmusclmachine]

50. So much for these "New Democrats." They're all just Ex-Republicans.

[ReRe]

53. K&R

... Seriously, everyone needs to stock up on blue duct tape, black sharpies, & warm clothes. Serious protest days seem to end up in the deep of winter in the 21st century. It needs to be a huge protest. Bigger than the OWS, so the MSM will be forced to cover it. "We the People" must rise up against the TPP. This is a gauntlet moment for this nation. Get The Corporation out of Congress. And while we're cleaning house, clean the Church out of Congress. It's long past time for genuine truth and transparency. Thanks, cali, for the OP. I have a splitting headache... need to find the Aleve. Seriously.

[DeSwiss]

55. K&R

[donheld]

58. This is Goldman Sachs doing

They are the puppet master.