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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsState Cop Shoots at Minivan Full of Kids
Now the driver and her son are facing charges while New Mexico State Police are investigating the officers involved.
It all started Oct. 28 on a state highway south of Taos. A State Police officer pulled over Oriana Ferrell's minivan for going 71 mphr in a 55 mph zone. In the minivan with her were her five kids. The Taos News reports the children range in age from 6 to 18.
On dash cam video released to KRQE News 13 Friday you can see Ferrell and the officer argue after Ferrell couldn't decide whether to pay the $126 fine or contest it in court. The officer instructs her to turn her vehicle off and stay put before walking back to his car.
http://www.krqe.com/news/crime/state-cop-shoots-at-minivan-full-of-kids
She shouldn't have drove off, but that doesn't justify the violent police response -- one of the kids in there could have easily been killed.
Cops needs to chill the fuck out instead of play Rambo all the time.
"Measured response" is the order of the day.
That is all.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)is the biggest error.
hatrack
(59,584 posts)Not even close.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Try it and see if the cops are just racist towards and mother with kids.
Even better try it out of state.
Even better try it with 5 kids in the car
I'm sure they will just bring you a soda and a snack, right?
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)I don 'to know how they are trained to control situations like this, but I hope their reaction wasn't SOP.
What it looked like to me was a cop who got angry at uncooperative civilians so he bashed the window in.
The other cop's raining down bullets upon the van was beyond the pale.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Your last point - total agreement.
FourScore
(9,704 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)All the cops seem to share equal amounts of dumbassery.
You don't shoot at a car full of kids.
LEOs are out of control in many ways.
No as a civie I would not run a traffic stop, so that is dumb, but it doesn't enter into the same strata of dumb as some LEOs who shoot first and ask questions later.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Does your life lack meaning? Do Internet arguments bring flavour to your existence?
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)That many police are reckless, trigger happy and maybe even racists. You know like the ten percent of humanity is just assholes walking around.
given the above and forgetting that the initial cop was calm and professional in the initial traffic stop, SHE DROVE OFF WITH KIDS IN THE CAR. Compounding her suspicious activity was a van full of kids with out of state license plates. Furthermore the only reasons we all know about this is the COP had the video camera. Her ass should be arrested. That was the height of stupidity. Especially when we all know most cops over react.
So, yes equal share of dumbassery.
Furthermore, if my son ever approached a cop like that during a stop he'd be waking up jail and I will have slept soundly.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Not sure why?
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)penultimate
(1,110 posts)that officer shot at a van. Even if there were not any children in the van, I'm not sure I see how such a shooting could be considered justified.
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)What exactly did that cop expect to gain from shooting at a mini-van? One too many action movies for this guy.
That said, the mother put all of these events into motion, so that's why I credit her with half the blame.
Logical
(22,457 posts)RosettaStoned77
(53 posts)with a prison sentence for the mom who lost her cool and did a stupid thing. Foster homes for the children who were shot at. Winners all around, yay!
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)Cops murdering family pets.
Cops murdering people while assaulting the wrong addresses.
Wonderful people and really "serving and protecting," eh?
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)behavior even get looked into and them most the time there is no real punishment.
People tent to worship the police as heroes and put up with the bad behavior.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... fearing the police, viewing them as much or more of a threat than the "criminals," then something is dangerously out of kilter in our society. I know all cops aren't assholes like these, but in my experience, the vast majority are. The bully syndrome seems to be a prerequisite to getting a badge, a gun, and free range to use them in any way they damn well please, without consequence or responsibility. And it gets worse daily.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)DiverDave
(4,886 posts)The driver goes to jail, the stupid ass cop gets paid vacation then reinstatement.
With no reprimand.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)Why did the van's passenger exit the vehcile in the first place? Why did he charge the cop? What does the audio show immediately before that?
The woman escalated a tough situation. She shouldn't have driven off the first time, she shouldn't have struggled with the cop to re-enter the vehicle, and she shouldn't have driven off the second time.
The cop who shot at the van clearly appears to be in the wrong; it may be that he wasn't aware that the van had kids in it, but in that case he's firing blindly at an unknown target. It seems fairly likely (however dubious) that he'll be cleared of any wrongdoing on the grounds that the woman and the passengers initiated the confrontation.
LAGC
(5,330 posts)Her 14-year-old son apparently thought it was an abuse of power, so he got out to defend her.
The kids were screaming the whole time.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)I believe that driving away during a traffic stop is considered probable cause.
What should the first cop have done, after she'd already fled the scene?
LAGC
(5,330 posts)...should have been a pretty big mitigating factor.
The woman was clearly scared and overreacted, and given her race and how few witnesses there were on that remote stretch of road, I don't particularly fault her for wanting to get to a more public area.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)It's particularly unfortunate that the passengers exited the vehicle and acted so aggressively. I'm not saying that their fear wasn't justified, and I'll say again that the cop who fired at the van was wrong to do so, but she's going to be facing a lot more than a fine for speeding.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Yeah, a lot of wrong doing here, including the mom, who didn't keep it under control for the kids sake.
And, what did we learn here? When driving from another state while black, one should have come prepared with a certificate from the defensive course in, "being pulled over while black".
Now, it's gonna be a mess for all
I'd love to see the due process trigger happy baton twirlers get for their role.
jmowreader
(50,557 posts)Not knowing that stretch of road it could have been quite a ways, but the scenery is different so it was at least a mile. I'd like to see the whole tape.
The part with the window being broken out...yeah, that was a little much.
LiberalArkie
(15,715 posts)Orrex
(63,203 posts)Then the passengers assaulted him before fleeing again.
How many chances should they get?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Police believe they have the right to kill people that do not obey them. And they do it daily. Now the conservatives will tell you that only the low lifes get killed so why worry. I hope that's not what you are saying.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)Try again.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)think you mean "How many chances should they get before the police can start shooting?"
If that's not what you mean, then I am sorry.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)A suspect has fled the scene twice. How many further attempts at flight is the suspect to be allowed before police are permitted to escalate the situation? She has already endangered the children, other drivers, and the first cop, not to mention the fact that at least one passenger had assaulted the cop. What is the proper course of action that case?
I agree with the poster elsewhere in the thread who pointed out that the other cop should have parked in a way that prevented the van from driving off, so that's one possibility. What else?
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)Orrec are you forgetting police use of deadly force is NOT authorized simply because they are "Pissed"
Orrex
(63,203 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 17, 2013, 06:59 PM - Edit history (1)
When she fled the scene, she was endangering the children and anyone else on the road.
Forgive me, but your objection seems unrealistic.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)But it's a HUGE deal to the cops. You dont do what they say means it's open season. They could have killed one or more of the children, but that's not important as prevailing.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)Therefore your objection is immaterial.
In fleeing the scene after being caught, she committed additional crimes. Do you deny this? On what basis?
And again, no one is defending the cop who opened fire.
Why are you so eager to dismiss her crimes while condemning the police?
Decaffeinated
(556 posts)... From a vehicle after they fled a traffic stop.
Save the hyperbolic bullshit for someone who hasn't seen the video.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)http://blackamericaweb.com/184852/minivan-stop-turns-to-wild-chase-for-mom-kids/
Narrator says he got out to defend his mother who is totally freaked out after the first few interactions.
The cop firing his weapon was close, the investigation will prove if he had the sense enough to shoot at the tires, and not the van. I can't see where the van was getting hit.
Breaking the windows out was not needed. They had a speeding violation, not a gang of bank robbers. Going 71 in a 55 is not the same as going wild in the city, or school zone.
Could have just followed while they called ahead for others to set up a roadblock.
Weirdness in N.M.:
Isn't this the state where the kid in school got bullied at the cops? Where the guys got the colonoscopies for traffic violations? Didn't they just outlaw abortions at 20 weeks, elect a GOP governor, and go ALEC on all their laws?
Going conservativeis going to hell, sad to say.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)It's a shame that his mother freaked out after fleeing from the cop, but that doesn't excuse the kid's actions.
Breaking the window may have been justified, in fact. The driver had already resisted arrest and had twice fled the scene, and at least one of the passengers assaulted the cop.
Or the driver could have chosen not to flee the scene twice.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)I gave my opinion as to why these folks acted as they did. People are not trained to behave like dogs in obedience school.
I would not have done any of what she did. I do not speed. I follow all laws and the regulations to a fault when in my vehicle.
I would not have argued with the police. I would not have tried to flee the scene.
EOM.
Plain and simple.
LAGC
(5,330 posts)Poor woman was probably scared witless, knowing how badly cops profile, and just wanted to get to a more public area where there were more witnesses in case of malfeasance on the part of the police.
Luckily, she made it to that hotel alive.
lpbk2713
(42,755 posts)The whole episode would have turned out differently if the driver
had been a white male in a three piece suit driving an Escalade.
It would have been all "yes sir, no sir, sorry to bother you sir,
have a nice day sir" from the officers involved.
LAGC
(5,330 posts)jmowreader
(50,557 posts)They probably would have tried to get him to accelerate to 26 over (where the big fines start in New Mexico) before he pulled over. Gotta make that quota.
I white male in a 3 piece suit driving an Escalade would never have been stopped in the first place, speeding or not!
treestar
(82,383 posts)And if she did do 71 in a 55 zone, she did deserve to be pulled over.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Decaffeinated
(556 posts)Followed by assault as caught on video.
Fuck the driver , she and the son both deserve charges
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)The reasonable response to this is....
Fire the officer who shot at the van.
Take the women's children and imprison her
Put the young man who attacked the police into the juvenile justice system
Give the officer who didn't hit anyone, didn't tazer them, and didn't shoot at them a medal and a promotion.
valerief
(53,235 posts)No cop gets a damn promotion.
WTF is wrong with your thinking? Can't you see what the cops did was totally WRONG? I don't care what the speeder did. She was speeding for crying out loud. Speeding 15 miles over the limit. That's it.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)The ONLY REASON it wasn't just a traffic stop was the Women's unreasonable actions.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Besides, they HAD her plates. They could get her later without risking SO MANY lives. All they had to do was NOT CHASE HER. Very simple.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)I know this because I've gotten tickets and nothing even remotely similar to this happened.
You have something seriously wrong with your moral compass if you blame the police for following criminals instead of blaming criminals for running.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Taitertots
(7,745 posts)Getting in a high speed chase with children in the car
And fighting with police
While I've stated that shooting at a van full of children is wrong.
Running from the police is wrong
Fighting with the police (for no good reason) is wrong
valerief
(53,235 posts)I'm saying they should NOT have chased her. I don't know HOW MANY TIMES I have to state this.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)The person who is running after getting caught breaking the law is the person CAUSING the chase.
But keep defending people that attack the police and get in high speed chases. Just letting everyone know that you have no realistic sense of morals.
Autumn
(45,064 posts)Taitertots
(7,745 posts)Autumn
(45,064 posts)years ago. I had to mail it in and since I wasn't going back anytime soon I couldn't contest it, and I wasn't speeding and he didn't have a radar ticket. I had my cruise control on so I know I wasn't speeding but as soon as I came over the hill, his lights went on. I think all he had time to do was to see I had out of state plates.
jmowreader
(50,557 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)when the traffic violation fine is paid. You use the traffic ticket as your license. Been there, done that!
Decaffeinated
(556 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)I would bet cops are never trained to do that. Maybe there is one on the board who can say.
valerief
(53,235 posts)just that.
treestar
(82,383 posts)In this case. The lady did two things that really escalated the situation.
I wonder how they are trained to handle that.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)it was her choice to drive like that,her choice to run from them a second time. She made the choice is it was all on her. She chose to placed both the public and her children in danger.
nobody forced her to do anything. Maybe once she gets out of jail she will make better choices
valerief
(53,235 posts)They could get her later. Duh. It was all on tape. They didn't need to shoot.
Driving 15 miles over the speed limit does NOT warrant getting shot at.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Decaffeinated
(556 posts)1) Maybe there was a reason that she fled the traffic stop - drugs; abused children; body in the trunk etc.. etc.. Do you really think that the police should just say "Oh, I guess she was a-scared of me. Maybe she had a PTA meeting to go to. I'll just mail her the ticket."
2) It's an impossible policy to just tell people that they don't have to stop when the police pull them over.
3) While the fired round may have been excessive, it was not for speeding but rather for evasion and assault on a police officer.
valerief
(53,235 posts)RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)And they didn't release the names of the pigs who shot at the van.
Typical setting up of the Blue Wall!
lpbk2713
(42,755 posts)The RW nutjobs will have a field day with this. They will
find out the driver's ID and make her life a living hell.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)RW nutjobs can find them by reading the police blotter, if they're so inclined.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)doesn't surprise me. This is amerikkka and black people don't resist white cops for any reason and if they do and are armed or unarmed, risk immediate death by execution. They were just black kids No biggie in shooting INTO van. No they would NOT have shot into a van full of white kids. Period. No she shouldn't have driven off, I do not understand that, but she was unarmed and so was the kid. No excuse on shooting into that van. Protect and serve my ass, stop and execute is more like it.
Turbineguy
(37,322 posts)and out there are all the nails.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Maybe I could understand if one of the kids was Honey Boo Boo or a couple of LA house maids.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)(crickets chirping)
Orrex
(63,203 posts)gopiscrap
(23,757 posts)something to brag about when they're on their donut break
demwing
(16,916 posts)1. She was speeding (think for a moment of how you would feel about her parenting skills if she had caused an accident at that speed with her kids in the car...)
2. She fought (don't fight with cops, they get pissy, they are armed, and they can fuck up your world)
3. She fled the scene (is a comment her really required?)
In short, she turned a minor traffic issue into a life altering incident. She might go to jail, and she might lose her kids.
That being said, the cop who shot at a car full of children is a dangerous idiot, and should lose his job.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)When she drove away she redefined the encounter. Before that it was just a traffic stop with a minivan full of kids, after she drove away she has something to hide with a van full of kids. Was it a kidnapping? Most missing children are kidnapped by estranged parents. Were there drugs in the car? The children might be endangered because of a drug dealing parent. The cop has no way to know.
The cops made a mistake by not blocking the vehicle when backup arrived. How was she able to drive away the second time? And the cop that shot at the car just plain fucked up.
And they were on an educational trip from Tennessee to New Mexico. I'm sure it will prove a learning experience for everyone involved.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)There is no learning experience here. The cops figure they have a right to kill anyone that does not obey them. It happens every day. And conservatives love it, because only the low-lifes get killed.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)That's because I don't know. The cop didn't know either. Running from the police in a vehicle is felony evasion. She endangered herself, her kids, and the public by running from the police no matter the reason. Doing stupid shit like that in a thirty five hundred pound projectile is against the law and should be. The cops are there to enforce the law. She broke it. Plain and simple.
You say she was scared. What was she afraid of? Getting a ticket? It happens every day. You pay the fine and go about your business. Her response was outrageous and uncalled for.
The cops figure they have a right to kill anyone that does not obey them.
Now who's guessing? You're accusing the cops of an unwarranted sense of entitlement, yet the woman driving the car thought she could just drive away after she got pulled over.
Should the other cop have shot at the fleeing vehicle? Like I said, he fucked up. Should the responding officers have controlled the situation better? Of course. Will any of them suffer any real consequences for their mistakes? Not likely.
Don't go assuming every cop wants to kill people with impunity. They don't.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)"She endangered herself, her kids, and the public by running from the police no matter the reason. " Agree, but that's no excuse to try to kill her. If endangering the children is wrong then the police should get prosecuted also.
You are right she shouldnt have been scared. But maybe she was afraid of bad treatment by the police. Not that that happens. She was wrong and will be punished and the police were wrong and they will be rewarded. High fives at the cop bar.
"The cops figure they have a right to kill anyone that does not obey them. " You read about it in the paper every day where someone tries to get away from the police and they get killed, usually with 100 bullet holes.
"Don't go assuming every cop wants to kill people with impunity. They don't. " And I didnt say every cop. NO cops should think that they can kill with impunity, yet you read about it all the time. Example, a couple calls the police because they cant handle their special needs son. So the police show up and promptly shoot him to death. More high fives at the cop bar. Oh yeah, near here a mentally ill man was in a tree and wouldnt come down. Bingo-bango they shot hime. A well know homeless man in Seattle was crossing the street carving a piece of wood. He was drunk and didnt respond fast enough and was shot dead in front of his friends.
It's only a very small number of police that are psychopaths but that's still too many.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)The officer was not "shooting to kill her". He fired three measured rounds and you'll notice that the back glass of the vehicle was not hit. Although I cannot see the weapon, he appears to be trying to shoot out the left rear tire. It was still a dumb move. There was no need to shoot. The best thing to do is to park a police car in front of the van so she can't drive away.
"You read about it every day" in a country with three hundred million people using the most efficient means of information distribution in the history of the human race.
Only a very small number of the population in general are psychopaths, and that's too many. It will always be too many. The human race is not perfect. Sorry.
If you would be so kind as to tell me how much I need to agree with you about how the cops got it wrong, I'd appreciate it. I'm old. I have to plan.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Police are trained to shoot to kill. They dont shoot the tires.
My point is that police are out of control when it comes to killing people. They seem to have a free hand.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)Trying to shoot out the tires is rare because it's a stupid thing to do. In terms of "shooting to kill", actually cops are trained to shoot center mass and keep shooting until the threat is stopped. If you aim at the center of the target you are most likely to hit what you shoot at. That's also why people seem to get shot with so many bullets. That is, of course, a huge distinction without a difference since one's most important internal organs are in the center of our bodies. Yay evolution. A center mass shot is also likely to be fatal.
I don't know that cops are out of control when it comes to killing people so much as just generally out of control. That general lack of control may well be resulting in more people getting shot.
All cops are hammers. It's what they do. Break the law and you're busted. It's their job to catch people breaking the law and bust them for it. It's a mindset that's hard for most liberals to get their head around because it's very authoritarian. Most people who want to be cops have a pretty wide authoritarian streak in them because that's what it takes to do that job. That's why you won't likely find many hippies hanging out in cop bars.
But I don't think it's (entirely) the cops fault. It's the laws they are paid to enforce. Those laws are increasingly written to favor a growing corporate kleptocracy. Cops are working stiffs like you and me. They have bosses that expect them to produce results like everybody else. They can't be expected to rewrite laws on the fly because of ideological differences with their superiors.
I think unjust societies result in unjust treatment by the cops, not the other way around.
treestar
(82,383 posts)You've got to know that's going to make cops really suspicious.
The way she wouldn't allow him to arrest her annoyed me too. Just seems to think she should not have to answer to the law. It's not the end of the world, and you can explain in court.
And isn't it endangering kids lives to do 71 mph where the speed limit is 55 mph.
They had her license number and could have found her again possibly, but cops can't just let people drive away from them.
The shooting and bashing the window looked violent but then what are they supposed to do? Surely there's a handbook which gives the plan for such things. Having kids can't be an excuse to just drive away from a traffic stop.
The chase is on her, too. Putting plenty of other people in danger, and the kids in the car.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)That's a good thing.
When you run from the cops that's the same as an admission of guilt - of something. So while it might look ugly for the cop to go knocking out the window of the car, for all he knew she was suicidal and planning to drive head on into a truck to kill herself and her kids. Remember Susan Smith?
petronius
(26,602 posts)needs serious sanctions - termination if he has previous use-of-force issues - and the officer who opened fire needs to go to prison...
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)The mother is going to jail for escalating a minor traffic stop into a felony charge(s), which could be any or all of the following: evading police, resisting arrest, endangering children and reckless driving. Her son is going to spend time in a juvenile facility for assault on a police officer, which is also felony.
71 is a 55 zone is certainly a valid reason for a traffic stop and the only officer's response that I found to be excessive force was the officer who pulled his gun and fired at the minivan. The officer who initiated the traffic stop never pulled his firearm, only the taser, a valid response when confronted by potentially at least 2 attackers, the mother and the son, who was almost the same size as the officer.
As for those who said just follow her, not only are you risking the lives of everyone in the mini-van, but everybody else on the road and the police officers in pursuit. Given the mother's response to a simple ticket and her driving recklessly later in the tape, there is no reason to believe she was NOT endangering other people on the roads.
gulliver
(13,180 posts)Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)That's why we need to arm the police with full-auto weapons.
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)Caused things to flare up. For instance, why would the issue of the amount of the fine even come up. Why would the officer be trying to drag her out of the car over a speeding ticket. And why was the 2nd officer smashing out the windows on the passenger side of the van. Those people had every reason to fear for their life. It must be hell driving while black. And make no mistake, race was the biggest factor involved.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)1. never heard the amount come up in the video
2 He was trying to get her out as she already had sped off from the first traffic stop and had failed to exit the vehicle as ordered.
3 the 14yo attacked the officer and failed to exit when he was told to.
Do not know about driving while black but I got a ticket in NM, I assume as I had out of state tags. I was polite and signed the citation and left.
Officer should never have discharged weapon and should be fired as he was in no imminent danger.
Lots of blame to go around
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)Ferrell and the officer argue after Ferrell couldn't decide whether to pay the $126 fine or contest it in court.
She pulled away from the 1st stop when the 2nd officer was hassling her son on the passenger side of the vehicle. Things, in other words, were already getting out of control. The video is heavily edited. The son got out of the car to defend his mom from the aggressive behavior of the cop at the 2nd stop.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)Did the cop drag the woman from the car before or after she fled?
Did he try to smash the window before or after the passengers assaulted him?
Just want to make sure that I'm not missing something.
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)On the passenger side of the car so things were already heating up. It was likely at the 1st stop where the argument over the ticket and how to dispose of it flared up. ( Ferrell and the officer argue after Ferrell couldn't decide whether to pay the $126 fine or contest it in court.) There is no reason Farrell should have had to make that decision at that moment and that is what lead me to make a comment about the officers mouth. I have had 3 speeding tickets in my life, all of them out of State, and never was I ask to make that choice on the spot so that sounds like driving while black.
The video was heavily edited so it was difficult to know what went down and when. Nobody is saying the woman should have driven off but the situation was already volatile when that happened. And nobody is defending the son or daughter getting out of the vehicle at the 2nd stop. Also the 2nd cop pulled out his gun and pointed it at the son point blank before deciding to instead smash windows. Even though it was the 1st cop that fired the shots it was the behavior of the 2nd cop that was the more serious issue because of his aggressiveness at both stops. That, and driving while black.
People shouldn't have to fear for their life over a speeding ticket.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)he pointed a taser. You can tell by the bright yellow you see on the taser and for those informed about firearms, the shape of the taser.
The driver is the one that initially escalated the situation be fleeing from the first traffic stop, resisting arrest at the second stop and then fleeing AGAIN at a high rate of speed. She turned a simple speeding ticket into multiple felony charges for her and her son.
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)What I saw, without studying the video carefully, was the officer raise the weapon from the right side, which is the gun side, not realizing he had already drawn his Taser. Only when you really follow it carefully and see him holster the weapon on the left side is it clear that it is his Taser.
You do not answer the question on why the driver was given an ultimatum to decide on the spot whether to pay the ticket or contest it. That has never been my experience and likely is not standard police procedure so it is an open question on who initially escalated. How much of a factor was driving while black.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)You have to decide whether to pay it or go to court on the spot, although payment is sent in after the fact. Looks like New Mexico is different from the states we both live in.
As for the driving while black, he would not have know her ethnicity until he had walked up to the car. I know my DL license doesn't list skin color or ethnicity and the windows on the mini-van were too darkly tinted from the rear to see the driver.
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)The driver may want to speak to counsel to understand their chances of getting the charge reduced, etc. so this makes no sense as it actually interferes with due process. Under this procedure they should need to read the driver their Miranda rights. Indeed, this is a recipe for confrontation since it is at odds with what other States do and would have to make a person of color suspect driving while black. Big brother is alive and well in New Mexico.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)when he pulled the mini van over and gave her a ticket.
And you are speculating that some of the other 49 states and territories don't have similar laws.
Orrex
(63,203 posts)If the story seems slanted in some way, then we need to take that up with the network. I'll also have to listen to the audio, but I have a few thoughts:
Was she asked to make her decision about payment/court on the spot, or were those given as options? When I've been involved in traffic stops, the cop has always presnted the choices to the driver, so it wouldn't surprise me if the cop did something similar in this case.
Years ago my friend was pulled over for reckless driving (though he was completely sober). He was asked to exit the vehicle and he complied. I was in the back seat and grumbled some dumbass comment about the situation and was then directed to exit the vehicle as well, which I did. The cop in that case made some pretty scary statements about what might happen as a result of the stop, but in the end we were sent on our way with a warning. I'm confident that the episode would have ended differently if either of us had taken a swing at the cop.
My point is that I don't think it was unreasonable for the cop to address the passenger directly, if the passenger initiated the exchange.
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)But the news report stressed the ultimatum the cop gave to decide on the spot whether to pay it or not. Signing the ticket is only an acknowledgement that you understand your options and not a guilty plea. Did this cop employ driving while black by not properly explaining the options? Oh, on further review the cop pulled his Taser rather than his gun. I misread when he pulled a weapon up with his right hand it was his gun because that was his gun side. When he holstered it on his left side it then was apparent it was his Taser. With the editing I thought it was the second officer that busted out the window rather than firing the shots. One busted the windows and the other fired the shots (I thought I heard 3 shots fired).
treestar
(82,383 posts)Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)Last edited Tue Nov 19, 2013, 08:18 AM - Edit history (1)
You either know that choosing the plural is an outright lie or have paid so little attention to the video and available information that you simply are oblivious to the fact that ONE 14 year old child was attempting by all appearances to protect his very frightened mother who was being assaulted at the time by an armed and violent MAN. If there is another possible conclusion it eludes me.
What would you have done watching as your Mom was being assaulted by a man that was behaving violently while armed with lethal weaponry? His reaction was in no way difficult to understand, his bravery in attempting to protect his mother from potential death by a violent and lethally armed man without a weapon of his own to assist him at the age of 14 was perhaps noteworthy as it could have caused his death. The bravery of the (one could argue foolish) decision to possibly die to protect her might have been difficult to understand if he were older and could be expected to completely understand the gravity of the danger to himself, but he is only a child. Children usually simply react to such strong emotions as would be felt by viewing the distress and fear of the child's mother being attacked, children react rather than deliberate and so such a reaction is not really very surprising.
Your choice of framing could lead one to believe you were implying a group of unknown numbers of possibly "dangerous thugs" attacked an innocent public servant perhaps to distract from the actual fact that one child reacted to his very frightened mother being attacked by an armed and violent man.
One might also think such framing (with the seemingly deliberate misuse of the plural and the generic "passengers" were words chosen quite deliberately. One might also note the very repetitive use of the phrase (in multiple posts) a technique known by many to be used by propagandists to push misinformation into the subconscious as a fact rather than the misinformation it is.
One very well might think rather poorly of you if one were to take such repetitive incorrect phrasing as such an implication.
Perhaps more than "one" might, perhaps multiple readers might.
So.
At least ONE is now asking, "What is your motive for misstating the the facts repeatedly via, 'the passengers assaulted him'"?
Orrex
(63,203 posts)You simply ignore the fact that the driver was stopped for speeding and then twice fled the scene by vehicle, thereby endangering her children, other drivers, and the pursuing cops.
Do you deny that the driver was speeding?
Do you deny that the driver fled the scene?
Do you deny that the driver fled the scene a second time?
Do you deny that the driver resisted the cop who attempted to restrain her after she'd already fled the scene twice?
Do you deny that the passenger exited the vehicle and aggressively charged at the cop?
Instead of accepting that the driver bears any responsibility, you paint her as the innocent victim. In your reimagining, she's not "the driver fleeing the scene" or "the suspect resisting arrest" but rather the "very frightened mother who was being assaulted at the time by an armed and violent MAN." By your reckoning, a woman is not accountable for criminal behavior if she has kids and can claim that a male cop frightened her. How very retrograde of you.
You also magically absolve the passenger--almost the same size as the cop--of any responsibility, because "children react rather than deliberate." Boys will be boys, in other words. Presumably, if I were 14 and assaulted your mother, you would simply shake your head and shrug at the spirited whimsy of youth. How convenient!
And despite all of this--the speeding, the flight from the scene, the second flight from the scene, the resisting arrest, the assault of a cop, the driver's choice to endanger the children, other drivers, and the police--the most upsetting thing to you is the fact that I used a plural rather than singular noun.
One might think very poorly of your wacky priorities if you were to focus on semantics in preference to fact.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Iggo
(47,552 posts)They're the best!
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)except for the one that fired at the van. The one on the passenger side that was talking on the window before the woman pulled off wasn't talking to the kid he was talking to the driver. It's safer on that stretch of freeway where she pulled over to talk to the passenger side then it is to talk from the driver side.
the mother turned a simple traffic stop and jail time for both her and a child. And placed the public in danger over nothing. Note than nothing unusual happened before she drove off the first time.
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)Period.
No matter whether the driver was speeding or pulled away, for whatever reason, before the stop was finished, YOU DO NOT SHOOT AT A CAR FULL OF KIDS.
NickB79
(19,233 posts)Here I clicked on this link thinking the cop fired at the van because the driver tried to ram him or run him down. That would have at least been legally justified as standard police protocol (though still very dangerous considering all the kids in the van).
But he opened up on her as she drove AWAY from her?
There is no justification for that. None whatsoever. He needs to lose his badge and be prosecuted.
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)Both should face jail time for endangering the kids.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)The cops were even dumber for their violent reactions. I agree they should all be punished, but the only one facing jail time will be the woman, because this is the way justice is handed out in America.
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)ReRe
(10,597 posts).... the new police state. I thought Florida was bad. Wasn't it New Mexico where the guy in the WalMart parking lot put his hands on his backside when he was getting in or out of his vehicle and they ended up reaming the guy with every kind of probe imaginable looking for dope?
In this case, the woman was wrong to drive away when being cited for speeding. What the fuck was she thinking, for God's sake??? But when he pulled her over the 2nd time, he had no right to be so violent, yelling at her to get out of the vehicle. The cop was no longer civil. Then help arrives to protect the first cop from the vehicle with the woman and her five kids (or was it six?) and together they crash the back windows with all those kids in there? And then another one shoots at the vehicle as the mother gets the hell out of there?
Moral of this story: Don't ever argue with a police officer in New Mexico. EVER. If you was speeding with kids in the car, fess up and take the ticket. Then you'll get a chewing out and then on the way you will go. Assume that that cop will go violent on you, even if you just look at him a bit cross-eyed. Yes sir, no sir is the order of the day, OK? Don't EVER give a cop a reason. That's all they want. One teeny-tiny little reason.
We live in a police state now. Hell, I guess we need to talk scenarios over with the kids in case we are stopped by the police? Common sense don't make sense anymore. Dayamn!
Decaffeinated
(556 posts)And justified except possibly for the fired shot.
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)Why she didn't just take the ticket? Arguing with a cop is gonna get you nowhere. And to drive off..stupid move.
Now that shithead cop who pulled out his weapon & fired..he should be fired. Immediately. This isn't the Wild West. How can he justify sending rounds into a van of kids. Unreal.
I see a lot of silliness in this thread too. Why isn't it ok to calmly look at this situation and place the blame around where it belongs. That woman has to act responsible along with the cop. You don't just decide to not listen to a cop and drive off. And for the police to let it get outta control like that does not inspire confidence in their ability to maintain order.
Whole lotta stupid & sad in this story.
penultimate
(1,110 posts)but as soon as that cop opened fire, he pretty much made everything she did seem rather minuscule in comparison.
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)penultimate
(1,110 posts)Not someone I'd want to continue to be allowed to be a police officer.