General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFrom the very beginning, Obama was bull$hitting when he said he would renegotiate NAFTA
When Obama campaigned for his first term as President, he boasted that he would renegotiate the jobs-destroying NAFTA pact.
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/03/the-facts-about-nafta-gate/
Obama: I will make sure that we renegotiate (NAFTA), in the same way that Senator Clinton talked about. And I think actually Senator Clintons answer on this one is right. I think we should use the hammer of a potential opt-out as leverage to ensure that we actually get labor and environmental standards that are enforced. And that is not what has been happening so far.
But while Obama was on the campaign trail shamelessly pontificating , he was simultaneously hand-selecting NAFTA-friendly trade representatives who would act to make sure NAFTA would not get reviewed at all.
These are the words of Obama's 2009/10 trade representative, offshoring lapdog Peter Cowhey, assessing NAFTA 20 years after it was signed into law:
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/Oct/25/nafta-trade-canada-pritzker-commerce-mexico-maquil/
(NAFTA) built economies of scale for North America to be competitive in our rapidly changing world, said Peter Cowhey, dean of the School of International Relations and Pacific Studies at the University of California San Diego. Cowhey also served as the U.S. trade representative in the Obama administration between 2009 and 2010.
NAFTA has been very helpful in facilitating what ought to be deep relationships and making them a deep success, Cowhey said.
Cowhey did not have a different opinion of NAFTA when Obama chose him four years ago to be his trade representative.
Of course, we also know Cowhey is overflowingly full of cow-$hit: NAFTA, has, in fact, only cost the United States hundreds of thousands of good-paying jobs, as well as reduced the wages of millions of more American workers:
http://www.epi.org/publication/webfeatures_snapshots_20061004/
Broken promises
NAFTA cost U.S. jobs and reduced wages
By Robert E. Scott
Corporations, politicians, and economists repeatedly claimed in the early 1990s that the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) would improve the U.S. trade balance with Mexico and Canada, resulting in a net gain of about 200,000 jobs in the United States. The reality is that the U.S.-NAFTA trade deficit has soared over the past dozen years, displacing a total of 1 million jobs nationwide, with losses in every state (see Revisiting NAFTA). Simply put, NAFTA has failed to achieve the benchmarks for success established by its proponents. Nonetheless, many of the original NAFTA supporters as well as members of the Bush Administration and Congress have made similar claims and promises about the purported benefits of other recent trade deals, such as the Central American-Dominican Republic Free Trade Agreement and the proposed agreements with Peru, Korea, and Colombia.
For a better understanding of the situation, it helps to review some basics. Exports support jobs in the United States, while imports displace domestic production and jobs. In 2004, U.S. imports from Mexico and Canada were $412 billion, while U.S. exports were only $300 billion, leaving a $112 billion trade deficit (nominal dollars). By comparison, the U.S. trade deficit with Canada and Mexico was only $9 billion in 1993; the increase in that trade deficit through 2004 is what is responsible for displacing 1 million jobs nationwide.
Two of the biggest job losers were California (-124,000 jobs) and Texas (-72,000), as shown in the chart below. In terms of the share of a states workforce that was affected, those hardest hit were Michigan (-1.4% of its workforce, or -63,000 jobs), Indiana (-1.2%, or -35,000 jobs), and Mississippi (-1.0%, or -12,000 jobs).
Trade-related jobs that were displaced in manufacturing and related services industries paid wages that were 16% to 19% higher than the average job in the rest of the economy. Growing trade deficits with Mexico and Canada have pushed workers out of higher-wage jobs and into low-wage positions in non-trade-related industries. The displacement of 1 million jobs from traded into non-traded goods industries reduced wage payments to U.S. workers by $7.6 billion in 2004 alone.
Next up: Obama's pet project, TPP, the ultimate corporate trojan horse.
progressoid
(49,988 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Pony!
Chakab
(1,727 posts)You just can't expect to get anything done in Senate unless you have at least 75 seats.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Weak. Weak and defensive. Weak, defensive, and pretty much par for the fucking course.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)These days though it's hard to tell around here LOL.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)Glad you're back
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and if it shat ass burgers, I wouldn't be upset at all.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s15e08-ass-burgers
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)QC
(26,371 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)wait, that's the other debacle.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)If I had gotten a pony that I could sit on like that one, and if it included batteries so that the pony could walk - even slowly - carrying me around, that would have been the best present ever.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Maybe he is being blackmailed by NSA...they are the real government.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Stock Market Hits Record High of 16,000 Under Terrible Socialist Barack Obama
Just think of all those 401k accounts soaring like eagles.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)when the crash happens. On a good note, they can scoop them up and make pigeon stew if they aren't too homeless to have a stove. Retirement!
Ace Acme
(1,464 posts)fasttense
(17,301 posts)401k are not managed to make money for their account holders. They are managed to take the fall and provide cover for when the smart money begins to pull out.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)You put it much more concisely than the rambling post I was composing in my head would have done.
Ace Acme
(1,464 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)I guess all in the name of getting elected.
Now, he is rapidly approaching lame duck status, and the DU hard core fan club isn't happy about it.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Or maybe he's saving it for Hillary.
Obama decides not to renegotiate NAFTA after all, will allow Mexican trucks to destroy the Teamsters
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x622178
Aerows
(39,961 posts)means fuck all to the people they harm in the process. It's only starry-eyed folks that benefit from that politician that give a fuck about their image.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Yup, and it's still Clinton's legacy.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Those that continue it *endorse* it. You can't be against an idea like NAFTA while supporting an idea like TPP. It does not, and will not, compute.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)You can't erase it from his accomplishments.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)You think it is an accomplishment. Oh my. Well, if you are a fan of off-shoring jobs, then yes, it was an incredible accomplishment.
cali
(114,904 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)As for the TPP stuff, I think the hyperbole is similar to the RW bullshit about the arms treaty taking your guns.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I am a life-long Democrat and will be from the cradle to the grave, but I am not ignorant enough - I said it - ignorant to what it will do to the economy.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)has been detrimental to our nation, our workers and our families. TPP needs to be negotiated out of existence, because it will render us a third world colonial country to China.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)One is a law that shouldn't even have an idea of doing again. It's like taking a gun and shooting yourself and you survived, while everyone around you got rich keeping you alive (but your family and community got poorer), now you think you should shoot yourself again because you survived the first time.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)It took one of those felonious whistleblowers to reveal what's actually going on. No consumer or labor voices are being heard.
cali
(114,904 posts)evidence on issue after issue is just mind boggling.
And really quite sad.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)that I think a lot of th TPP hyperbole is similar to the RW bullshit about arms treaty.
In fact, I find some of the claims "mind boggling(ly)" silly.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Cite the stories and show how they are similar to the RW bullshit. Let's see you back up your claims. There's been plenty of links to the stories about the TPP on DU, so have at it.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)Yeah, that's the ticket.
How is Obama going after the TPP agreement - secretly - RW hyperbole? You are really stretching. Again.
Seriously. How can you deny he wants TPP. A real answer, not some RW bs story.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)important about a politician's legacy than the legacies of anyone else?
I must be weird, but I consider the legacies of ordinary people to be far, far more important than the legacies of just one or two citizens.
We are not a monarchy. Politicians are merely people who applied for a job and the people gave it to them.
This adulation of politicians needs to go.
Otoh, maybe you forgot a sarcasm tag, if so ignore the rest of this comment.
George II
(67,782 posts)G_j
(40,367 posts)and now we have TPP coming down the pike.
solarhydrocan
(551 posts)it will "create more jobs" (for wall street?)
ReRe
(10,597 posts)... in other countries and not our own. We'll loose jobs from it, not to mention the gorilla in the room effing coup that comes along with it. It'll bring change alright, and not the change this country needs. What this country needs is to toss out the effing trade agreements that Clinton brought to us and now this whopper that PO thinks he's going to sign off on. They do not have a right to make such decisions on our behalf when we don't know what the end result will be. Their "changes" are taking We the People back and NOT forward!
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Aerows
(39,961 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Reminding you that you have no ability to vote, just to cheerlead.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Do you need studies?
cali
(114,904 posts)Sid
Whisp
(24,096 posts)how dare you speak! why doncha move to France with those freedom fries of yourn!
(unfortunately a needed smiley these days)
Aerows
(39,961 posts)But it is absolutely correct for me to call out someone that has nothing but snide, angry things to say to the actual Americans that are politically involved and love our country.
NAFTA benefited Canadians overwhelmingly more than it did Americans. I don't begrudge you the fortune, but don't think Americans are going to stay still for another give away to corporations the second time around with TPP. You will likely find that it won't benefit Canada any better than it will the US.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)and you still love me.
I will have to look into this more: that Canada is the fortunate one in regards to NAFTA. That is a surprise to me, but I will look around and get some edumacation as things may have changed.
Back in the Mulroney days (which were the Reagan days and the Thatcher days all at once, ugh), the first free trade agreement between the U.S. and us, the FTA, our manufacturing suffered greatly as so many moved down to your southern states to take advantage of cheaper labour, looser labour laws,etc. It was a real hit for a lot of people.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)not just the FTA under Reagen.
Best wishes, my friend. I hate that our Southern states took the brunt of it more than you ever could, too.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)I wasn't trying to put blame or anything. We all end up at the bottom of the food chain eventually.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I sent you a PM with evidence of my claims. I don't blindly say something without having a study to back it up.
that's why. Never can vote, just wants to stir up shit.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)But haven't found anything on that either. Both sides simply assert the positions without a discussion.
George II
(67,782 posts)Doesn't look finite yet, does it? I know this is 2 years ago, but...........
pampango
(24,692 posts)(and expansion) of NAFTA since Canada and Mexico belong to both. If the TPP becomes law (which I think is very unlikely, to say the least) our trade relations with Canada and Mexico will have been renegotiated.
WowSeriously
(343 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)would insist on environmental or labor protections?
WowSeriously
(343 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)by some poster. My mind boggled.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Welcome to DU!
WowSeriously
(343 posts)pampango
(24,692 posts)Whether they will be in the final draft, I don't know. If they are not, the TPP is unsupportable. If they are (and are enforceable - "national sovereignty" notwithstanding), then I'll have to balance the good against the bad.
WowSeriously
(343 posts)I expect we'll be asked to stop letting the perfect be the enemy of the good and play the hand we're dealt. You know, rollover before we even start, much like the debate on The Heritage Foundation health insurance proposal.
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)pampango
(24,692 posts)unsupportable.
Marr
(20,317 posts)international corporations invited to secretly write this treaty. That's probably why labor rights and environmental representatives were excluded. Just no need for 'em!
pampango
(24,692 posts)Whether their issues are included in the final draft (and how enforceable they are in the face of the "national sovereignty" folks on the right) remains to be seen and will determine if there is any redeeming value to the TPP.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)truedelphi
(32,324 posts)And Obama apparently lied through his teeth. (the other possibility is that even though a natural born speechifier, he doesn't pay attention at all to anything he says. So he isn't lying - he is more aware of his diction and what syllables to emphasize than what these syllables mean.)
Anyway the One Big Money Party has all these trade agreements totally wrapped up. There is no one to vote for, with a shot at winning, that doesn't represent the One Percent on this matter.
Since Hillary Clinton also totally supports visas for workers, and allows those jobs to go to foreigners, so she can glean the Big Time Big Corporate contributions, I doubt that she really cares about reforming trade agreements, once she is in office. (Though she may well do the lying through the teeth thing, when out campaigning for votes.)
solarhydrocan
(551 posts)IIRC she helped write it
Laelth
(32,017 posts)http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/01/20/827681/-Ted-Kennedy-Quote
-Laelth
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)They collude; they swindle; they lie.
And yet the people themselves remain a liberal bunch. Just today, I find out in my Facebk account tat the activists over in Hawaii have gotten legislation through that will enable them to know when they are sprayed by pesticides and what is in those pesticides.
Now if we could just find ourselves some leaders that we could support who would actually support us...
Laelth
(32,017 posts)Peace.
-Laelth
polichick
(37,152 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)polichick
(37,152 posts)solarhydrocan
(551 posts)pa28
(6,145 posts)I wanted a candidate who recognized the fact lobbyists were writing trade law and working Americans were losing their jobs as a result.
That's what he did here and as you can see he's grossly misrepresenting the kind of president he would become.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Supporter of the One Percent.
Was he that supporter all along, simply lying to us as he campaigned? Or did he make the deal with the devil immediately after being elected?
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)truedelphi
(32,324 posts)pa28
(6,145 posts)I remember a funny piece from the financial press in 2009 that has stuck with me until this day. A fund manager was discussing candidate Obama with a colleague and the topic was how "safe" this guy was to their mutual interest.
The author was chortling because Obama was a University of Chicago guy and that particular institution is not exactly known for producing people who disagree with a capital based program.
He knew Obama was "safe". Anything he said in public to the contrary was just rhetoric.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)-Laelth
whathehell
(29,067 posts)scheming daemons
(25,487 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024053560
totodeinhere
(13,058 posts)thread on the other topic that you brought up. Why are you trying to change the subject of this thread?
ProSense
(116,464 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)WowSeriously
(343 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)WowSeriously
(343 posts)GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)met with the Canadians and assured them that NAFTA would not be undone. At the time, as a big Obama supporter I thought it was just campaign propaganda. But now I believe it was true.
DURHAM D
(32,609 posts)with Canadian officials to tell them candidate Obama was just kidding about reforms to NAFTA. The press reported it but somehow it was Hillary's fault that they reported it.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I hope that whomever Obama had spinning for him in 2008 goes to work for a real progressive this time round.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Oh well.
Politicub
(12,165 posts)that may be influenced by NAFTA?
It's well known that the populations of urban areas are increasing as more people migrate out of small towns.
I was curious to know if there is any kind of correlation between NAFTA's signing and population migration. Did it speed up? Had it already started? Or, was there no effect?
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
mike_c
(36,281 posts)Mike
treestar
(82,383 posts)to rile everyone up. No explanations or support or facts.
Why is it such a bad thing?
And don't go "are you kidding" and link me to several editorials on it.
Find some article that truly explains it.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)get lectured by people that do neither. I know why I take part in this debate - it is about our future in the US.
Why do you? You contribute nothing but snide commentary. If you have it so good, go back to your own countries politics and crow about them there. If you have it so bad, go back to your own countries politics and complain about them there.
You have a right, because this is the USA to voice our opinion on everything and anything. What you do not have the right to do is vote. That probably pisses you off more than anything, unless you just get off on undermining our nation.
I like most of our Canadian neighbors, and would offer a hand to them, but their right wing is nasty.
Sid
Aerows
(39,961 posts)when such nonsense it categorized as nonsense and political theater. Because you cannot be serious.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'm going to rofl at you since you are all assholes!
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)pa28
(6,145 posts)Phlem
(6,323 posts)You never loved him like we do. So you see why it doesn't make sense to you.
-p
Aerows
(39,961 posts)since they are the voice of wisdom - since they neither live nor vote here.
Phlem
(6,323 posts)But I've been on this since he was elected. At least now, some people are waking up. You should have heard the shit (ALL of the SHIT) I got for my stance. Bipartisanship, what kind of brick do you have to be to know that there's isn't a snowballs chance in hell that was going to work.
But you are correct, I became a US citizen, I wasn't born here and perspectives from other countries are just as important as ours.
I would venture you get shovel fulls too.
-p
Sid
Aerows
(39,961 posts)It's delightful to see badmouthers ... who aren't even able to do anything yell at those who are busy doing it. I delight in your mockery!
Response to SidDithers (Reply #68)
Post removed
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Marr
(20,317 posts)I don't think I've ever seen you offer anything but that silly emoticon.
Response to Marr (Reply #116)
Post removed
treestar
(82,383 posts)LOL. Canada was part of NAFTA.
You're, dammit.
Phlem
(6,323 posts)I've seen your posts too.
-p
if I make such an embarrassing error in the midst of a smart ass remark, please feel free to correct me.
no shit.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Oh wait, you said smart ass remark. I stand corrected.
My 12 year old thought your post was hilarious and clever. Of course, he gets a kick out of fart jokes too.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)as much as making that crack amused me ! Give your 12 year old a hug for knowing good humor when he sees it
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Maybe that should be the new meme.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Just sort of states it. Mexico is a lot poorer, so it's hard to believe they are prospering at our expense. Their unemployment rate is so high it's really hard to believe they got the jobs.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)<...>
http://www.epi.org/publication/heading_south_u-s-mexico_trade_and_job_displacement_after_nafta1/
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and isn't a strong argument for TPP.
It's a bad idea, and I hope that Obama dismisses it as such.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)Link here: http://www.morssglobalfinance.com/the-loss-of-american-manufacturing-jobs-what-are-the-facts/
This is why TTP is still a terrible deal for the average American worker. It's good for The top 1% as it increases their "intellectual Property rights" across the board thereby providing them with even more money. Hence the reason the rest of the globe is up in arms about it. They too will lose money to the top 1% in the US.
treestar
(82,383 posts)IMO this issue is being used to imply government leaders are all part of some cabal of the 1%, even in countries where they are elected by the people. Not truly understood.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)And yes they give Obama the blame and it really does have quite a bit to do with intellectual property rights that will benefit the top 1%.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/13/trans-pacific-paternership-intellectual-property
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/19/trans-pacific-partnership-corporate-usurp-congress
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/nov/13/wikileaks-trans-pacific-partnership-chapter-secret
Wikileaks Secret TTP Agreement the above 3 articles are based upon. https://wikileaks.org/tpp/
Asia Times Online: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/JAP-02-270913.html -TPP a Trojan horse
From Canada: http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/6994/125/
From Russia Today: http://rt.com/usa/wikileaks-tpp-ip-dotcom-670/
treestar
(82,383 posts)Are they just assuming it from the trade deficit?
Further if these things did not work in one way or another, they know that for when they negotiate the next one. There are several of them out there, so have they all resulted in trade imbalance? And does that have anything to do with our weak economy as opposed to the trade agreement itself? It'd be nice if they tried to explain rather than just telling us. Anyone talking about it can have an agenda.
eridani
(51,907 posts)--and the Canadian 1%. It's just everyone else who's fucked.
treestar
(82,383 posts)So far none. I don't believe a thing just because it's written.
For the record I looked at the government's page, which sings the praises of the TPP in a similar way, so I'm not buying that either.
If you think for yourself, you want to know what they are basing that conclusion on, not just accept it because it fits an agenda.
eridani
(51,907 posts)--people and elected governments hurt the 99%. Who knew?
treestar
(82,383 posts)maybe they really are trying to regulate international trade?
eridani
(51,907 posts)Using US Census data for 1990 and 2000, the authors estimate effects of the NAFTA agreement on the US wages. They look for any indication of effects of the agreement on the local labor markets dependent on industries vulnerable to import competition from Mexico, and the workers employed in industries competing with Mexican imports. They find evidence of only modest local labor-market effects, but evidence for a strong industry effect, dramatically lowering wage growth for blue-collar workers in the most affected industries. These distributional effects are much larger than aggregate welfare effects estimated by other authors.
http://www.epi.org/publication/press_releases_failedexppr/
In the United States, NAFTA:
* Put downward pressure on wages and living standards;
* Created deep and probably chronic trade deficits with its neighbors;
* Displaced more than 400,000 jobs;
* Weakened workers rights and reduced employee bargaining power;
* Exacerbated environmental and public-health damage along the U.S.-Mexico border;
* Compromised food safety standards; and
* Increased drug trafficking due to insufficient border inspections and heavier truck traffic from Mexico.
In Mexico, NAFTA:
* Precipitated the 1994 peso collapse, which led to an economic depression;
* Eliminated more than 2 million jobs;
* Reduced real hourly wages by 27% from 1994 levels;
* Caused the failure of more than 28,000 small businesses; and
* Weakened labor standards and increased violations of worker rights.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Where is the proof, the actual proof that wages and living standards went down and that it was all due to NAFTA?
Job outsourcing started in the 70s. Other factors are in play.
Do real people really have nothing to do with corporations? They don't buy from them or work for them? This is getting silly. It's like the left's substitute for the right's rage at other groups of people.
Why should international trade be completely unregulated? What would be the economic result of that?
eridani
(51,907 posts)I'm done with people who think its wonderful that half the families in the country at poverty or near poverty level (and therefore no discretionary income to spend growing the economy) and who think that shitty jobs that can't support families are great. Bilateral trade agreements used to work just fine to regulate trade, and there is no fucking reason whatsoever to have "trade" agreements that have fuckall to do with trade, but only to do with giving vicious amoral sociopaths the right to override the decisions of elected government.s
marmar
(77,077 posts)....... that defending the indefensible is becoming harder and harder.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and no one that is a Democratic party member likes defending it because it sucks ass.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Interesting?
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)dionysus
(26,467 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)to get the point across. When DUers state a position with wisdom to back them up? It seems rather like sour grapes to compare them to a person that did nothing but sour grapes the community.
When you realize that good is being done, the best thing you can do is stop criticizing it.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)still hasn't figured out that you don't renegotiate NAFTA when you're already in talks to supercede it.
Still...it makes for an amusing thread.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Oh wait, you are a lawyer. This probably looks like paradise and more business.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)I have no opinion on the TPP yet, because so little of it has been released. As a copyright holder...and a patent holder, I look forward to strengthening my claims against piracy.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I thought you were a lawyer and thus able to interpret law. Oh well, I guess we all learn at one point or another. I suggest you take a second look.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)let me know how you interpreted the TPP.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)a patent, I am sure you will not disdain the income thus derived.
I'm sure you are alone on this board in having a patent. There is no way on Earth that someone like myself that disagrees with you could have inherited one and still be concerned about the ramifications of the TPP.
Yes, you, indeed, are alone as the sole possessor of patents, copyrights and, well, bad spelling attempts. Okay, you aren't the only one with the latter, and you certainly aren't the only one that is the former. "Conceed"? Really?
Use a real dictionary. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=conceed
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Since you've reduced the argument to spelling mistakes, you've lost it.
We were in a thread together that discussed it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021495005
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Sorry to hear that. It doesn't make your argument any stronger, nor does it make me think any higher of it.
When someone tells me that I am jealous on an internet forum, then makes an appeal to sympathy (I'm a dyslexic attorney!) ... I pretty much have their number. I think we both know it.
Use a real argument against TPP, not bogus appeals to authority, appeals to party loyalty, and the last stand - "You are just jealous". That's the mark of someone that has lost it. Of course, I got playful with you, and you know exactly how, and you ended up with "appeal that I'm a weakling and you are picking on me."
Back to arguing substance. What is it about the TPP that you find appealing and beneficial for the average American citizen?
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Gooogle search will find other discussions of it.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)on the actual discussion at hand. Why do you think that the TPP will benefit the majority of Americans, and why do you support it?
Does it personally insult you that I ask you a question on a discussion board about the discussion at hand? I'd think you would be more than willing to share how and why you believe this is beneficial.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)about a policy on a discussion board and not taking the bait when you attempted to deviate from answering that question every way that you could?
You owe the board an apology for insulting our intelligence by not being able to offer up a single reason why the TPP benefits Americans, yet asserting that we should just blindly support it.
Way to go - you have mastered the art of deflection, but you still have said absolutely nothing of substance. I gave you my reasons why I don't support TPP. So have a lot of people. I have yet to hear an actual argument from a supporter of TPP.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)*crickets*
*crickets*
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)and finished doing that, for now. And are waiting for an answer to our question. I hope you have a good dinner. I did. So did the family. Stop by Cooking & Baking where we can discuss recipes and it is totally neutral.
But no, that doesn't let you off of the hook in GD of explaining what benefit you think the average American citizen will get if TPP is implemented. Americans, on the whole, got screwed under NAFTA. This one looks to screw the American people even further. It's tort reform, deregulation, and more corporate subsidies all in one package.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)reading might be in order for you.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)"Little of it has been released".
"I don't know, but I support what is in it, even though when asked questions that are germane, I really don't know."
And you want an apology?
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)for falsely claiming that I wrote it.
You've resorted to making fun of a dyslexic person's spelling mistakes, and to falsely claiming that I wrote something I did not. You should apologize.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I understand why you won't. I think everyone in the thread understands why, and false outrage is a bucket that won't carry water on this one.
But hey, keep trying.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)You've continued this thread by making fun of my spelling mistakes, and by then claiming I wrote something I did not.
What I find unsurprising is that you simply ignored my answer to you in post 175, because you could not debate it.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)because you didn't say anything.
I can't debate a position when one party states "I don't know anything". I offered you facts, reason and history on why NAFTA was a bad idea, and why what I have read of TPP is equally bad policy. We have nothing to debate except you claiming you don't know what is in the policy, but you think it has merit. And, of course, you claiming to have hurt feelings.
When you actually have read a bit about TPP (hint: you can find all about it on wikileaks), have read up on NAFTA (which has been public knowledge for over a decade) and can find a cogent argument, please feel free to look me up. Otherwise, this is just theater on your part because you don't have anything of relevance to say with regard to the discussion - which is the policy. That is what this thread is about - not msanthrope feeling hurt because msanthrope still can't articulate what is so great about TPP, and Aerows pointing that out.
Aerows has pointed out why TPP is bad. Now the onus is on msanthrope to point out why it is good. That is usually how adult exchanges on policy go. Unless, of course, one has no intention of arguing based upon merit of said topic, and instead has a different goal.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Then you went on to insult my spelling, although I am dyslexic, and then claimed I wrote something that I didn't. In fact, you've persisted in doing that by claiming I wrote this:
That's not debate. That's you making stuff up, whole cloth, because you are quite angry at me. Whereas I am amused.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)There are a lot of amused folks in this thread, me included. A lot of folks making things up out of whole cloth, and I'm not included in that group.
Proceed, litigator.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)someone does that, they know they've lost the argument. Heck--I still don't understand why you are so angry that I don't have an opinion on the TPP. What's it to you?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I don't think I've expressed anything but indifference to your arguments, yet, because you haven't made one. What's it to you that I think TPP is a bad law right along with NAFTA being a bad law? I have already stated that TPP will gut many existing laws in favor of corporate interests. I've stated my opinion clearly.
I figured that since you had so much vehemence against the argument that I presented up thread that you knew something about the policy we were discussing. Now you are saying you don't have an opinion on it. Okay.
That's about the worst example of not having an opinion on something that I've ever seen, but good enough. Take care, and I hope in the future that your "not having an opinion" arguments go better for you than this one did.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)made up quotes I did not write.
Only someone very angry does that. Very angry.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'm actually having a ball at this point. Far from angry, just shaking my head.
Do you need a backhoe to go with that shovel, or are you fine with the hole you are already in, my friend? I'd toss you a rope, but something tells me that you aren't the type to take it
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)I started having fun. But no, indifference isn't one of those emotions now .
Now I'm just snickering, enjoying some ice cream and seeing how far you want to go with this.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)you that the ice cream was delicious.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Or any article critical of Democrats, as long as the criticism was illogical and unwarranted. What are these "tropes?"
yourout
(7,527 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)It's a fair observation to say that they're both too corporate, and I would agree. But it's not at all fair to say that Clinton is corporate in a way that Obama isn't.
Clinton's 2008 campaign promises, especially on the economy and corporations were mostly to the left of Obama - especially if you ignore Obama's promises that he never attempted to keep (eg. lifting the SS cap)
I want to do better next time 'round than Obama. I'd like to improve to a greater degree than Clinton is likely to deliver.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)What the heck were Hillary's promises on the economy and corporations?
I don't remember any.
I do remember she was very big on tax credits. Also, the fact that Obama never attempted to raise the cap on SS certainly does not put him to the right of Hillary, who took the side of the poor, poor, "middle class" worker making $120,000 a year.
Clearly, she felt THEIR pain. While I at $12,000 a year was clueless about how much those people would suffer if they had to pay the same percent of their income in FICA taxes as I do.
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)MisterP
(23,730 posts)dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)Not a hair's breadth of difference in the trade policies of these three. Time to stop believing the campaign rhetoric and supporting politicians who will support us.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)pampango
(24,692 posts)http://www.fairobserver.com/360theme/populism-nationalism-and-globalisation--new-far-right
... one ideological doctrine about which there is almost full consensus regarding its importance for understanding the far-right worldview, it is that of nationalism.
http://www.ctc.usma.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/ChallengersFromtheSidelines.pdf
Neither all globalists nor all nationalists are right wingers. There are progressive and reactionary adherents of both.
cali
(114,904 posts)We are for real and fair trade, not corporate structured agreements that benefit corporations at the expense if issues like patents, the environment, etc..
The TPP is largely not a trade agreement. Only about 20% of it deals with actual trade issues.
pampango
(24,692 posts)is good for the US and good for the world. That is not what we have in the WTO now nor in the trade agreements we have negotiated in the past. If the TPP proves to be different in this regard, it may be good. If not, it is bad.
I don't agree with those who believe that globalism (the attitude or policy of placing the interests of the entire world above those of individual nations) is inherently evil. Indeed liberals are more favorable inclined towards trade and immigration (interacting with the rest of the world) than is the conservative base who prefer the nationalism of Fortress America with more limited immigration and trade.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)and I confess.
pampango
(24,692 posts)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populism#United_States
One is predicated on what is good for the people of the world. One is more focused on what is good for the people of a particular nation. Populism does not have to be nation-based.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)then I guess that is just a coincidence, eh?
Romulox
(25,960 posts)pampango
(24,692 posts)"Nationalist" is, IMHO, more closely the opposite of "globalist" contained in the post I was responding to.
Globalism: the attitude or policy of placing the interests of the entire world above those of individual nations.
Nationalism is the opposite: the attitude or policy of putting the interests of one's own nation above those of the rest of the world.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)In addition, you left out the part about deregulation, stratification of wealth, outsourcing, inequality, environmental devastation, etc. That's the heart and soul of globalism.
pampango
(24,692 posts)One can be a global populist or a global corporatist. One can also be a national populist or a national corporatist. Nothing about populism restricts its practice to defined nation states.
"deregulation, stratification of wealth ..." all have also happened under nationalist governments with high tariffs and restrictive immigration laws. (See Russia today or the US in the 1920's.) Countries with progressive taxes and strong unions and safety nets in which trade is large percentage of the economy (Canada, Germany and many others) have more equitable distributions of income and better regulated economies than do countries with regressive taxes, weak unions and safety nets in which trade plays a smaller role in the economy (the US).
I await an example historically or currently of an "anti-globalist" government that rivals the income equality of the Nordic countries which are very 'globalist' in their trade policies.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)for working people.
You can explain that globalism has been less destructive in other nations, but you are playing make believe if you pretend globalism hasn't gutted the American middle class.
In fact, you can't and won't make the foregoing argument, because it is patently false. So you call anybody who points out the inconsistencies in your bizarre worldview "nationalists", based on a made-up definition of the word idiosyncratic to you and you alone.
It's pathetic, pampango. And it's not working. Nobody is fooled. Not even you.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)Keep on fighting the good fight though.
treestar
(82,383 posts)In fact, the same people insist that there should be trials before we do drone strikes or take out terrorists in Yemen.
Yet it's wrong to trade with other nations and regulate that trade via agreements with the other nations.
The same people insist we have no right to spy on other countries.
But we can see what the common denominator is. They make a mistake and show their hand by using this as an issue.
They really just don't understand it, but think it looks good for the 1% vs. people meme they've set up.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Simple ad hominem that does nothing at all to contribute to the debate.
This is what you resort to when you have nothing to back up an argument. Are you afraid real research would make your conclusions a lot muddier or even wrong?
Romulox
(25,960 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)You have to resort to that kind of label to avoid the point?
treestar
(82,383 posts)At this point they are just echoing each other.
Yet none of them could be credible in a real debate. They simply don't know what they are talking about. But they see an issue where it looks like they can exploit the corporation vs. people meme they have set up.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Or want proof for your assertions! How evil of them!
B Calm
(28,762 posts)Romulox
(25,960 posts)isn't an argument worth addressing. Educate yourself before you join the discussion.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Then support that argument with something. Just "I'm right, you're stupid," usually doesn't work to convince most people.
No one has ever really supported that argument. Links to editorials that make the same conclusion without backing it up aren't sufficient.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I think it is now clear that he wants to build off of Bill Clintons NAFTA legacy. Why he wants to is beyond me. It has become pretty clear that Obama wants NAFTA on steroids. His support and work on the TPP shows that he wants to renegotiate NAFTA. He wants a bigger and badder NAFTA.
ctsnowman
(1,903 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)Orrex
(63,203 posts)Is there no end to his corruption?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)tell the truth. Is there no end to his integrity?
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)And certainly not just with regard to trade agreements.
Let's not allow that to happen again.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)She will continue to due so once she finally announces.
lark
(23,097 posts)The answer is he was always right wing on financial issues and the campaigner Obama was a Trojan Horse.
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)Didn't one of his advisers, Goolsbe, privately assure the Canadians that Obama didn't really mean it, even at the time?
BainsBane
(53,031 posts)I could. I knew it was BS the moment he said it.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)ended up in this thread. All of them saying everything but "If you are against TPP, you hate Obama" but none of them offering a single example of why it would benefit American citizens. Lots of deflection, lots of claims of being an Obama hater, lots of in the weeds wandering from the topic, but none of them say why it is a good thing for the average American.
If you are going to stand up for a policy, I would think your defense should be something better than "I support Obama and everything he does."
I have serious concerns about TPP that have nothing to do with who is President. I'd dislike it if it was JFK, FDR or Jesus Christ suggesting it. None of that makes me less of a liberal, none of it makes me less of a Democrat, and absolutely none of it makes me a blind sheep of the MSM (which wants it because it eases lawsuits for corporations). It makes me a person that gives a damn about the direction our country is headed.