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brentspeak

(18,290 posts)
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 03:44 PM Nov 2013

From the very beginning, Obama was bull$hitting when he said he would renegotiate NAFTA

When Obama campaigned for his first term as President, he boasted that he would renegotiate the jobs-destroying NAFTA pact.



http://www.factcheck.org/2008/03/the-facts-about-nafta-gate/

Obama: I will make sure that we renegotiate (NAFTA), in the same way that Senator Clinton talked about. And I think actually Senator Clinton’s answer on this one is right. I think we should use the hammer of a potential opt-out as leverage to ensure that we actually get labor and environmental standards that are enforced. And that is not what has been happening so far.


But while Obama was on the campaign trail shamelessly pontificating , he was simultaneously hand-selecting NAFTA-friendly trade representatives who would act to make sure NAFTA would not get reviewed at all.

These are the words of Obama's 2009/10 trade representative, offshoring lapdog Peter Cowhey, assessing NAFTA 20 years after it was signed into law:



http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/Oct/25/nafta-trade-canada-pritzker-commerce-mexico-maquil/

“(NAFTA) built economies of scale for North America to be competitive in our rapidly changing world,” said Peter Cowhey, dean of the School of International Relations and Pacific Studies at the University of California San Diego. Cowhey also served as the U.S. trade representative in the Obama administration between 2009 and 2010.

“NAFTA has been very helpful in facilitating what ought to be deep relationships and making them a deep success,” Cowhey said.


Cowhey did not have a different opinion of NAFTA when Obama chose him four years ago to be his trade representative.

Of course, we also know Cowhey is overflowingly full of cow-$hit: NAFTA, has, in fact, only cost the United States hundreds of thousands of good-paying jobs, as well as reduced the wages of millions of more American workers:



http://www.epi.org/publication/webfeatures_snapshots_20061004/

Broken promises

NAFTA cost U.S. jobs and reduced wages

By Robert E. Scott

Corporations, politicians, and economists repeatedly claimed in the early 1990s that the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) would improve the U.S. trade balance with Mexico and Canada, resulting in a net gain of about 200,000 jobs in the United States. The reality is that the U.S.-NAFTA trade deficit has soared over the past dozen years, displacing a total of 1 million jobs nationwide, with losses in every state (see Revisiting NAFTA). Simply put, NAFTA has failed to achieve the benchmarks for success established by its proponents. Nonetheless, many of the original NAFTA supporters as well as members of the Bush Administration and Congress have made similar claims and promises about the purported benefits of other recent trade deals, such as the Central American-Dominican Republic Free Trade Agreement and the proposed agreements with Peru, Korea, and Colombia.

For a better understanding of the situation, it helps to review some basics. Exports support jobs in the United States, while imports displace domestic production and jobs. In 2004, U.S. imports from Mexico and Canada were $412 billion, while U.S. exports were only $300 billion, leaving a $112 billion trade deficit (nominal dollars). By comparison, the U.S. trade deficit with Canada and Mexico was only $9 billion in 1993; the increase in that trade deficit through 2004 is what is responsible for displacing 1 million jobs nationwide.

Two of the biggest job losers were California (-124,000 jobs) and Texas (-72,000), as shown in the chart below. In terms of the share of a state’s workforce that was affected, those hardest hit were Michigan (-1.4% of its workforce, or -63,000 jobs), Indiana (-1.2%, or -35,000 jobs), and Mississippi (-1.0%, or -12,000 jobs).



Trade-related jobs that were displaced in manufacturing and related services industries paid wages that were 16% to 19% higher than the average job in the rest of the economy. Growing trade deficits with Mexico and Canada have pushed workers out of higher-wage jobs and into low-wage positions in non-trade-related industries. The displacement of 1 million jobs from traded into non-traded goods industries reduced wage payments to U.S. workers by $7.6 billion in 2004 alone.


Next up: Obama's pet project, TPP, the ultimate corporate trojan horse.
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From the very beginning, Obama was bull$hitting when he said he would renegotiate NAFTA (Original Post) brentspeak Nov 2013 OP
It'll be fixed in his next term progressoid Nov 2013 #1
Because he can't do everything at once and cherokeeprogressive Nov 2013 #2
If only we'd had a larger Democratic majority, this all would have been fixed in '09. Chakab Nov 2013 #28
Obstructionism and pony! Enthusiast Nov 2013 #60
and he's not a dictator and you're a racist Doctor_J Nov 2013 #89
Aww, you mad? cherokeeprogressive Nov 2013 #95
Sorry, forgot the Doctor_J Nov 2013 #119
I didn't think that sounded like you. cherokeeprogressive Nov 2013 #137
Yes, I am a well-know pony-wanting Ted Cruz Leftist Doctor_J Nov 2013 #138
My pony needs to shit rainbows Aerows Nov 2013 #98
LOL n/t cherokeeprogressive Nov 2013 #99
It's only been 58 months!!1! QC Nov 2013 #125
Lieberman! Doctor_J Nov 2013 #139
Need bankie with pony.... L0oniX Nov 2013 #211
OT: When I was a kid Aerows Nov 2013 #219
Lol billhicks76 Nov 2013 #41
HA! SammyWinstonJack Nov 2013 #132
But the stock market hit a record high today Fumesucker Nov 2013 #3
And dying like a flock of pigeons Aerows Nov 2013 #84
The smart money will know when to get out. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #117
Yes, the smart money will know when to pull out but fasttense Nov 2013 #121
Depressingly true. Jackpine Radical Nov 2013 #127
My point exactly. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #155
I was wondering why all the homeless people were dancing and partying. L0oniX Nov 2013 #214
Obama said a lot of things during the campaign that turned out to be illusions quinnox Nov 2013 #4
Maybe he wants Clinton to keep that as his legacy. ProSense Nov 2013 #6
A politician keeping their legacy Aerows Nov 2013 #29
"A politician keeping their legacy means fuck all to the people they harm in the process." ProSense Nov 2013 #32
Only if he's solitary in supporting that legacy. Aerows Nov 2013 #35
No, it's Clinton's legacy. ProSense Nov 2013 #37
Oh, I see Aerows Nov 2013 #162
What part of he made a promise and broke it is so difficult to understand? cali Nov 2013 #45
Is his Presidency over? ProSense Nov 2013 #54
TPP is just as real as NAFTA and just as detrimental to the economy Aerows Nov 2013 #64
NAFTA has been in effect for 20 years. TPP is being negotiated. n/t ProSense Nov 2013 #66
And NAFTA over the last 20 years Aerows Nov 2013 #69
So they're not the same: One has been law for 20 years, the other is still being negotiated. n/t ProSense Nov 2013 #72
One has been a bad law for 20 years Aerows Nov 2013 #73
Negotiated in secret because it can't stand sunshine. Jackpine Radical Nov 2013 #128
I'm sorry, but your refusal to deal with reality and overwhelming cali Nov 2013 #85
I'm not sorry that you're "quite sad" ProSense Nov 2013 #86
Please elaborate. cui bono Nov 2013 #113
where are the blue ink links when we need them? Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #236
Yeah, because he's against a small free trade agreement while pushing for a HUGE one. cui bono Nov 2013 #112
Millions of people would like to protect THEIR legacies. Is there something more sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #223
The DU hard core "fan" club started bashing him on Jan 21 2009. George II Nov 2013 #156
True, it can't be denied G_j Nov 2013 #5
But Obama says the TPP will be a good thing solarhydrocan Nov 2013 #7
Yeah, it'll create more jobs... ReRe Nov 2013 #23
Green for victory!!... SidDithers Nov 2013 #27
Well, since you don't live or vote in our country ... Aerows Nov 2013 #33
Oh, it's you again... SidDithers Nov 2013 #34
Yep Aerows Nov 2013 #36
Yeah. Why would a Canadian have an opinion in a thread about NAFTA?... SidDithers Nov 2013 #40
Since it didn't have a negative impact on your own country Aerows Nov 2013 #67
why don't you, as a Canadian, spend anytime on Canadian politics? cali Nov 2013 #46
... SidDithers Nov 2013 #48
Enjoy Aerows Nov 2013 #96
big mouthed Furiner you. Whisp Nov 2013 #173
Whisp, I love you Aerows Nov 2013 #193
I'm always snide and angry too. Whisp Nov 2013 #194
Look into NAFTA Aerows Nov 2013 #195
everyone loses, that's for sure. Except the privileged. Whisp Nov 2013 #196
Unless we put a stop to it, we will Aerows Nov 2013 #197
Interloper Aerows Nov 2013 #52
+1000! Puglover Nov 2013 #160
We don't need yer stinking duct tape! L0oniX Nov 2013 #218
Ugh. SammyWinstonJack Nov 2013 #134
I'd would like to know why Obama thinks that treestar Nov 2013 #143
"Broad outline"...."plenty of details to work out" George II Nov 2013 #157
IF labor rights and environmental standards are part of the TPP, it's an effective renegotiation pampango Nov 2013 #8
You don't really think there will be labor rights and environmental standards in TPP, do you? WowSeriously Nov 2013 #24
Yes - who among the many corporate lawyers who negotiated the TPP in secret amongst themselves Maedhros Nov 2013 #49
I can't think of any. WowSeriously Nov 2013 #87
In another thread, the TPP was called "effective goverment" Maedhros Nov 2013 #109
Neither can I. cui bono Nov 2013 #114
Thank you! WowSeriously Nov 2013 #131
That was Obama's original plan and conservatives have criticized their ongoing discussion. pampango Nov 2013 #70
Well, you're far more optimistic than I. WowSeriously Nov 2013 #88
At least you admit that TPP is largely unsupportable n/t brentspeak Nov 2013 #97
If there are no enforceable provisions on labor rights and the environment, it will indeed be pampango Nov 2013 #124
Yes, I'm sure labor rights and evironmental standards have been vigorously defended by the list of Marr Nov 2013 #115
They were not 'excluded'. They are, IMHO, underrepresented. Their issues are under discussion. pampango Nov 2013 #123
Bwhahahahaha!! And if I am a good girl, Santa will buy me a new house!. n/t truedelphi Nov 2013 #177
Clinton was married to the man who brought NAFTA into our lives. truedelphi Nov 2013 #9
Hillary is all for TPP solarhydrocan Nov 2013 #15
In the words of the late, great Ted Kennedy ... Laelth Nov 2013 #17
Democratic leaders have a lot to answer for. truedelphi Nov 2013 #53
You'll get no argument from me on any of that. Laelth Nov 2013 #56
Saw a new bumper sticker today that read: HE LIES. polichick Nov 2013 #10
Soon, there will be ones that say: Muslim Socialist Lies. n/t ProSense Nov 2013 #42
Or worse. polichick Nov 2013 #62
a stunning must see video from 2007 solarhydrocan Nov 2013 #11
That's was the moment I was looking for back in 2007. He sold me. pa28 Nov 2013 #76
i still wonder when he started to shift tobeing the truedelphi Nov 2013 #94
All along, or you would never even heard his name. nt Demo_Chris Nov 2013 #104
Exactly. nt NorthCarolina Nov 2013 #122
All along or he wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the Presidency. SammyWinstonJack Nov 2013 #135
Ain't it the truth. n/t truedelphi Nov 2013 #176
Like the two posters up top I'll say "all along" as well. pa28 Nov 2013 #224
k&r for the truth, however depressing it may be. n/t Laelth Nov 2013 #12
+1000 n/t whathehell Nov 2013 #31
You Better Believe It, DKF! n/t scheming daemons Nov 2013 #13
Nailed it...nt SidDithers Nov 2013 #59
Yeap, Obama's second term is over so ... uponit7771 Nov 2013 #14
K&R liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #16
Good news: ProSense Nov 2013 #18
This is a thread about Obama's comments about NAFTA. As your link indicates there is already totodeinhere Nov 2013 #43
Recent comments? n/t ProSense Nov 2013 #47
This was known in 2008--you just heard about this? nt geek tragedy Nov 2013 #19
The OP is just reminding those who have forgotten. WowSeriously Nov 2013 #26
Welcome to DU! n/t Aerows Nov 2013 #163
Glad to be here! WowSeriously Nov 2013 #166
I am no Hillary fan, but I do remember her campaign circulating the anti-Obama point that he had GoneFishin Nov 2013 #20
Yep. Austan Goolsbee (Obama's chief economic adviser during the primary) met DURHAM D Nov 2013 #22
+1 n/t lumberjack_jeff Nov 2013 #103
"I am no Hillary fan, but" she supports NAFTA. ProSense Nov 2013 #44
Anyone have a link of U.S. population trends (other than what's on census.gov) Politicub Nov 2013 #21
It's cute the way you use a $ when you accuse Obama of being a liar...nt SidDithers Nov 2013 #25
anything substantive to add, or is this simply off topic literary criticism...? mike_c Nov 2013 #30
There's nothing substantive about this use of TPP treestar Nov 2013 #226
It's cute when people that live in and vote in the United States of America Aerows Nov 2013 #50
... SidDithers Nov 2013 #51
I look forward to the day Aerows Nov 2013 #55
I can't vote in your elections! Aerows Nov 2013 #57
Crack smoking mayor.... HooptieWagon Nov 2013 #77
Yeah. The $ kind of detracted from the factual matter of the lie. pa28 Nov 2013 #80
Your just a hater. Be a good Dem and love everything he says! Phlem Nov 2013 #38
Listen to the Canadians that can't even vote in this country Aerows Nov 2013 #61
I hear you brother. Phlem Nov 2013 #63
... SidDithers Nov 2013 #68
I know, you crack me up :) Aerows Nov 2013 #71
Post removed Post removed Nov 2013 #90
... SidDithers Nov 2013 #91
Why do you even post here? Marr Nov 2013 #116
Post removed Post removed Nov 2013 #161
Um, aren't they involved here? treestar Nov 2013 #229
. Bobbie Jo Nov 2013 #92
whatever.... Phlem Nov 2013 #93
so.... Bobbie Jo Nov 2013 #100
When you make a smart remark, I'm sure someone will. Aerows Nov 2013 #168
lol Bobbie Jo Nov 2013 #174
Glad I amused somebody else Aerows Nov 2013 #178
NT ctsnowman Nov 2013 #147
? Bobbie Jo Nov 2013 #150
+100000000 woo me with science Nov 2013 #39
Real harm to real Americans. Enthusiast Nov 2013 #58
That piece doesn't really prove the job loss is caused solely by NAFTA treestar Nov 2013 #65
The estimates are that NAFTA cost about 700,000 jobs since Clinton signed it ProSense Nov 2013 #74
Which is alarming Aerows Nov 2013 #75
NAFTA is a drop of water in the bucket compared to all offshoring of US jobs since 1978. go west young man Nov 2013 #110
Do the other countries protest it the same way. treestar Nov 2013 #144
Here ya go: From the Guardian UK and others. go west young man Nov 2013 #221
That too just states it, but doesn't say how they come to the conclusion treestar Nov 2013 #141
You're kidding, right? The Mexican 1% is doing just fine, as is our 1% eridani Nov 2013 #108
No, I'm wanting an explanation and not just a conclusion treestar Nov 2013 #142
Trade agreements specifically designed to benefit corporate power at the expense of eridani Nov 2013 #207
Any support for that notion? treestar Nov 2013 #220
Yes--to favor corporations and hurt real people eridani Nov 2013 #222
Same old friggin' conclusions treestar Nov 2013 #227
Fine--keep working for the 1% eridani Nov 2013 #230
It's clear from reading some of these responses...... marmar Nov 2013 #78
Indeed, it has Aerows Nov 2013 #83
Watch the body language and facial affect of BOTH in the following video. bvar22 Nov 2013 #79
Did Bill O'Reilly's body language expert provide this? JoePhilly Nov 2013 #126
BBI was better at this... nt dionysus Nov 2013 #81
Better Believe it used tropes Aerows Nov 2013 #82
BBI used trolling. And this thread is useful as flypaper...it tells us who on DU msanthrope Nov 2013 #130
I assume you think Aerows Nov 2013 #165
Thank you for conceeding my point...and proving that this thread is flamebait. msanthrope Nov 2013 #175
Oh my Aerows Nov 2013 #179
When you have some 'law' let me know what you need interpreted. nt msanthrope Nov 2013 #180
When you actually have a patent Aerows Nov 2013 #181
Jealousy never wears well on anyone. If you are ever so fortunate as to inherit msanthrope Nov 2013 #182
LOL Aerows Nov 2013 #183
Aerows..making fun of a dyslexic who forgot to use the spellcheck should be beneath you. msanthrope Nov 2013 #184
Oh, you are dyslexic? Aerows Nov 2013 #185
You were in a thread where I discussed my dyslexia...cited above. Also, a simple msanthrope Nov 2013 #187
That has zero bearing Aerows Nov 2013 #188
You owe me an apology. nt msanthrope Nov 2013 #189
For asking you a question Aerows Nov 2013 #190
*crickets* Aerows Nov 2013 #198
Some of us have lives, and children to care for, and dinner to cook. You still owe me an apology.nt msanthrope Nov 2013 #199
Some of us do, too Aerows Nov 2013 #200
You still owe me an apology. And I already answered your question in post #175. Less heat, more msanthrope Nov 2013 #201
That was an answer? Aerows Nov 2013 #202
I did not write what is contained in that second quotation mark. So you owe me another apology, msanthrope Nov 2013 #203
Anything but addressing the question with regard to the policy Aerows Nov 2013 #204
Again, you have claimed that I wrote something I did not. I answered your question in post 175. msanthrope Nov 2013 #205
I couldn't debate what you wrote in post #175 Aerows Nov 2013 #206
Exactly. I told you I hadn't any opinion on the TPP. You refused to accept that. msanthrope Nov 2013 #208
Uh huh Aerows Nov 2013 #209
You most definitely made up quotes that I did not write. I've pointed them out. I think when msanthrope Nov 2013 #210
Angry? Aerows Nov 2013 #212
Quite angry, because you've persisted after getting an answer you did not like, made fun of me, and msanthrope Nov 2013 #213
Angry? Aerows Nov 2013 #215
Having a ball? But you just claimed you were indifferent. nt msanthrope Nov 2013 #216
Oh no, about three posts up Aerows Nov 2013 #217
You've been locked out of this thread, so I shall only hope for msanthrope Nov 2013 #235
BBI simply posted articles from right wing sources treestar Nov 2013 #225
He wants to negotiate......he'd like to make it worse. yourout Nov 2013 #101
Here's the thing. I don't get how Obama supporters have standing to criticize Clinton. lumberjack_jeff Nov 2013 #102
Really? hfojvt Nov 2013 #106
No he wasn't. He's working on the TTP agreement in secret. lonestarnot Nov 2013 #105
2018: "why do you leftbaggers hate ShulerTrades?! it has Affordable in the title!!!" MisterP Nov 2013 #107
Bill Clinton, Obama, Hillary dreamnightwind Nov 2013 #111
This. n/t jtuck004 Nov 2013 #118
I see the usual du globalists are all over this post. B Calm Nov 2013 #120
As are the usual du nationalists. pampango Nov 2013 #129
that's an erroneous claim. We aren't nationalists. cali Nov 2013 #133
Fair enough. Fair trade that encompasses respect for human and labor rights and the environment pampango Nov 2013 #136
I think the word you're looking for is populist Doctor_J Nov 2013 #140
No. There is global populism and nationalist populism. pampango Nov 2013 #145
And if what is "good for the people of the world" (sic) happens to line a few already-rich pockets, Romulox Nov 2013 #172
You're confused again. "Nationalist" isn't the opposite of "Corporatist". Romulox Nov 2013 #149
I agree. "Nationalist" and "corporatist" are far from opposites-both are favorites of conservatives. pampango Nov 2013 #152
Nonsense. Globalist is another synonym for Corporatist. You are manipulating words, again. Romulox Nov 2013 #169
Equating globalism with corporatism is your opinion. You are making your own synonyms now. pampango Nov 2013 #191
Reality has to be a factor, pampango. In the *United States*, "globalism" been devastating Romulox Nov 2013 #237
PS: Have you *ever* had a positive response to your globalist talking points? I've yet to see it. Romulox Nov 2013 #170
Globalism doesn't appear to be entirely wrong treestar Nov 2013 #233
Incoherent, as always. nt Romulox Nov 2013 #238
That does not make any point treestar Nov 2013 #242
The post to which I responded is utter word salad. That is my point. It's not worth "debating". nt Romulox Nov 2013 #243
No, it's not treestar Nov 2013 #244
I don't even think it's that sophisticated treestar Nov 2013 #231
Oh boy, people disagree with you! treestar Nov 2013 #228
Just one, and probably has an overseas job. . B Calm Nov 2013 #232
Ignorance isn't an argument. So, "People lost jobs due to NAFTA? I hadn't heard!" Romulox Nov 2013 #239
If you want to argue people lost jobs due to NAFTA treestar Nov 2013 #240
Nope. Again, your ignorance isn't a counterargument. nt Romulox Nov 2013 #241
I don't think he was bullshitting at all. NCTraveler Nov 2013 #146
K & R ctsnowman Nov 2013 #148
Are you guys just poring over old new clips and stories to find stuff to bash Obama about? George II Nov 2013 #151
I once saw him use a Canadian "quarter" in an AMERICAN soda machine Orrex Nov 2013 #153
I once saw a proven liar Aerows Nov 2013 #167
The nation was had. woo me with science Nov 2013 #154
Sen. Clinton was BSing about it too... awoke_in_2003 Nov 2013 #158
Well, this would seem to answer the question as to what happened to Obama to make him right wing? lark Nov 2013 #159
I remember that. BlueCheese Nov 2013 #164
You couldn't tell that at the time? BainsBane Nov 2013 #171
Bullshitter + politician = redundancy. Tierra_y_Libertad Nov 2013 #186
Look at the bullshitters that have Aerows Nov 2013 #192
+1 B Calm Nov 2013 #234
 

Chakab

(1,727 posts)
28. If only we'd had a larger Democratic majority, this all would have been fixed in '09.
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:26 PM
Nov 2013

You just can't expect to get anything done in Senate unless you have at least 75 seats.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
219. OT: When I was a kid
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 10:29 PM
Nov 2013

If I had gotten a pony that I could sit on like that one, and if it included batteries so that the pony could walk - even slowly - carrying me around, that would have been the best present ever.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
3. But the stock market hit a record high today
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 04:58 PM
Nov 2013
https://www.politicususa.com/2013/11/18/stock-market-hits-record-high-16000-terrible-socialist-barack-obama.html

Stock Market Hits Record High of 16,000 Under ‘Terrible Socialist’ Barack Obama

Just think of all those 401k accounts soaring like eagles.
 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
84. And dying like a flock of pigeons
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 08:57 PM
Nov 2013

when the crash happens. On a good note, they can scoop them up and make pigeon stew if they aren't too homeless to have a stove. Retirement!

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
121. Yes, the smart money will know when to pull out but
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 08:15 AM
Nov 2013

401k are not managed to make money for their account holders. They are managed to take the fall and provide cover for when the smart money begins to pull out.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
127. Depressingly true.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 09:42 AM
Nov 2013

You put it much more concisely than the rambling post I was composing in my head would have done.

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
4. Obama said a lot of things during the campaign that turned out to be illusions
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 05:05 PM
Nov 2013

I guess all in the name of getting elected.

Now, he is rapidly approaching lame duck status, and the DU hard core fan club isn't happy about it.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
6. Maybe he wants Clinton to keep that as his legacy.
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 05:19 PM
Nov 2013

Or maybe he's saving it for Hillary.

Obama decides not to renegotiate NAFTA after all, will allow Mexican trucks to destroy the Teamsters
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x622178

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
29. A politician keeping their legacy
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:30 PM
Nov 2013

means fuck all to the people they harm in the process. It's only starry-eyed folks that benefit from that politician that give a fuck about their image.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
32. "A politician keeping their legacy means fuck all to the people they harm in the process."
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:32 PM
Nov 2013

Yup, and it's still Clinton's legacy.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
35. Only if he's solitary in supporting that legacy.
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:36 PM
Nov 2013

Those that continue it *endorse* it. You can't be against an idea like NAFTA while supporting an idea like TPP. It does not, and will not, compute.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
162. Oh, I see
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 03:25 PM
Nov 2013

You think it is an accomplishment. Oh my. Well, if you are a fan of off-shoring jobs, then yes, it was an incredible accomplishment.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
54. Is his Presidency over?
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:48 PM
Nov 2013

As for the TPP stuff, I think the hyperbole is similar to the RW bullshit about the arms treaty taking your guns.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
64. TPP is just as real as NAFTA and just as detrimental to the economy
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 07:06 PM
Nov 2013

I am a life-long Democrat and will be from the cradle to the grave, but I am not ignorant enough - I said it - ignorant to what it will do to the economy.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
69. And NAFTA over the last 20 years
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 07:12 PM
Nov 2013

has been detrimental to our nation, our workers and our families. TPP needs to be negotiated out of existence, because it will render us a third world colonial country to China.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
72. So they're not the same: One has been law for 20 years, the other is still being negotiated. n/t
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 07:14 PM
Nov 2013
 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
73. One has been a bad law for 20 years
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 07:17 PM
Nov 2013

One is a law that shouldn't even have an idea of doing again. It's like taking a gun and shooting yourself and you survived, while everyone around you got rich keeping you alive (but your family and community got poorer), now you think you should shoot yourself again because you survived the first time.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
128. Negotiated in secret because it can't stand sunshine.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 09:46 AM
Nov 2013

It took one of those felonious whistleblowers to reveal what's actually going on. No consumer or labor voices are being heard.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
85. I'm sorry, but your refusal to deal with reality and overwhelming
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 08:58 PM
Nov 2013

evidence on issue after issue is just mind boggling.

And really quite sad.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
86. I'm not sorry that you're "quite sad"
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 09:13 PM
Nov 2013

that I think a lot of th TPP hyperbole is similar to the RW bullshit about arms treaty.

In fact, I find some of the claims "mind boggling(ly)" silly.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
113. Please elaborate.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 03:32 AM
Nov 2013

Cite the stories and show how they are similar to the RW bullshit. Let's see you back up your claims. There's been plenty of links to the stories about the TPP on DU, so have at it.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
112. Yeah, because he's against a small free trade agreement while pushing for a HUGE one.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 03:30 AM
Nov 2013

Yeah, that's the ticket.

How is Obama going after the TPP agreement - secretly - RW hyperbole? You are really stretching. Again.

Seriously. How can you deny he wants TPP. A real answer, not some RW bs story.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
223. Millions of people would like to protect THEIR legacies. Is there something more
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 02:49 AM
Nov 2013

important about a politician's legacy than the legacies of anyone else?

I must be weird, but I consider the legacies of ordinary people to be far, far more important than the legacies of just one or two citizens.

We are not a monarchy. Politicians are merely people who applied for a job and the people gave it to them.

This adulation of politicians needs to go.

Otoh, maybe you forgot a sarcasm tag, if so ignore the rest of this comment.

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
23. Yeah, it'll create more jobs...
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:21 PM
Nov 2013

... in other countries and not our own. We'll loose jobs from it, not to mention the gorilla in the room effing coup that comes along with it. It'll bring change alright, and not the change this country needs. What this country needs is to toss out the effing trade agreements that Clinton brought to us and now this whopper that PO thinks he's going to sign off on. They do not have a right to make such decisions on our behalf when we don't know what the end result will be. Their "changes" are taking We the People back and NOT forward!

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
67. Since it didn't have a negative impact on your own country
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 07:10 PM
Nov 2013
You radiate brilliance.

Do you need studies?
 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
173. big mouthed Furiner you.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 04:34 PM
Nov 2013

how dare you speak! why doncha move to France with those freedom fries of yourn!


(unfortunately a needed smiley these days)
 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
193. Whisp, I love you
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 06:39 PM
Nov 2013

But it is absolutely correct for me to call out someone that has nothing but snide, angry things to say to the actual Americans that are politically involved and love our country.

NAFTA benefited Canadians overwhelmingly more than it did Americans. I don't begrudge you the fortune, but don't think Americans are going to stay still for another give away to corporations the second time around with TPP. You will likely find that it won't benefit Canada any better than it will the US.

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
194. I'm always snide and angry too.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 06:47 PM
Nov 2013

and you still love me.



I will have to look into this more: that Canada is the fortunate one in regards to NAFTA. That is a surprise to me, but I will look around and get some edumacation as things may have changed.

Back in the Mulroney days (which were the Reagan days and the Thatcher days all at once, ugh), the first free trade agreement between the U.S. and us, the FTA, our manufacturing suffered greatly as so many moved down to your southern states to take advantage of cheaper labour, looser labour laws,etc. It was a real hit for a lot of people.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
195. Look into NAFTA
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 06:50 PM
Nov 2013

not just the FTA under Reagen.

Best wishes, my friend. I hate that our Southern states took the brunt of it more than you ever could, too.

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
196. everyone loses, that's for sure. Except the privileged.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 06:59 PM
Nov 2013

I wasn't trying to put blame or anything. We all end up at the bottom of the food chain eventually.


 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
197. Unless we put a stop to it, we will
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 07:27 PM
Nov 2013

I sent you a PM with evidence of my claims. I don't blindly say something without having a study to back it up.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
143. I'd would like to know why Obama thinks that
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 10:47 AM
Nov 2013

But haven't found anything on that either. Both sides simply assert the positions without a discussion.

George II

(67,782 posts)
157. "Broad outline"...."plenty of details to work out"
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 01:37 PM
Nov 2013

Doesn't look finite yet, does it? I know this is 2 years ago, but...........

pampango

(24,692 posts)
8. IF labor rights and environmental standards are part of the TPP, it's an effective renegotiation
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 05:40 PM
Nov 2013

(and expansion) of NAFTA since Canada and Mexico belong to both. If the TPP becomes law (which I think is very unlikely, to say the least) our trade relations with Canada and Mexico will have been renegotiated.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
49. Yes - who among the many corporate lawyers who negotiated the TPP in secret amongst themselves
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:46 PM
Nov 2013

would insist on environmental or labor protections?

pampango

(24,692 posts)
70. That was Obama's original plan and conservatives have criticized their ongoing discussion.
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 07:12 PM
Nov 2013

Whether they will be in the final draft, I don't know. If they are not, the TPP is unsupportable. If they are (and are enforceable - "national sovereignty" notwithstanding), then I'll have to balance the good against the bad.

 

WowSeriously

(343 posts)
88. Well, you're far more optimistic than I.
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 09:33 PM
Nov 2013

I expect we'll be asked to stop letting the perfect be the enemy of the good and play the hand we're dealt. You know, rollover before we even start, much like the debate on The Heritage Foundation health insurance proposal.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
124. If there are no enforceable provisions on labor rights and the environment, it will indeed be
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 09:31 AM
Nov 2013

unsupportable.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
115. Yes, I'm sure labor rights and evironmental standards have been vigorously defended by the list of
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 03:44 AM
Nov 2013

international corporations invited to secretly write this treaty. That's probably why labor rights and environmental representatives were excluded. Just no need for 'em!

pampango

(24,692 posts)
123. They were not 'excluded'. They are, IMHO, underrepresented. Their issues are under discussion.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 09:28 AM
Nov 2013

Whether their issues are included in the final draft (and how enforceable they are in the face of the "national sovereignty" folks on the right) remains to be seen and will determine if there is any redeeming value to the TPP.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
9. Clinton was married to the man who brought NAFTA into our lives.
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 05:41 PM
Nov 2013

And Obama apparently lied through his teeth. (the other possibility is that even though a natural born speechifier, he doesn't pay attention at all to anything he says. So he isn't lying - he is more aware of his diction and what syllables to emphasize than what these syllables mean.)

Anyway the One Big Money Party has all these trade agreements totally wrapped up. There is no one to vote for, with a shot at winning, that doesn't represent the One Percent on this matter.

Since Hillary Clinton also totally supports visas for workers, and allows those jobs to go to foreigners, so she can glean the Big Time Big Corporate contributions, I doubt that she really cares about reforming trade agreements, once she is in office. (Though she may well do the lying through the teeth thing, when out campaigning for votes.)

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
17. In the words of the late, great Ted Kennedy ...
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 05:50 PM
Nov 2013
"If the Democrats run for cover, if we become pale carbon copies of the opposition, we will lose--and deserve to lose," Kennedy said in 1980. "The last thing this country needs is two Republican parties."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/01/20/827681/-Ted-Kennedy-Quote


-Laelth

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
53. Democratic leaders have a lot to answer for.
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:47 PM
Nov 2013

They collude; they swindle; they lie.

And yet the people themselves remain a liberal bunch. Just today, I find out in my Facebk account tat the activists over in Hawaii have gotten legislation through that will enable them to know when they are sprayed by pesticides and what is in those pesticides.

Now if we could just find ourselves some leaders that we could support who would actually support us...

pa28

(6,145 posts)
76. That's was the moment I was looking for back in 2007. He sold me.
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 07:36 PM
Nov 2013

I wanted a candidate who recognized the fact lobbyists were writing trade law and working Americans were losing their jobs as a result.

That's what he did here and as you can see he's grossly misrepresenting the kind of president he would become.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
94. i still wonder when he started to shift tobeing the
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 10:29 PM
Nov 2013

Supporter of the One Percent.

Was he that supporter all along, simply lying to us as he campaigned? Or did he make the deal with the devil immediately after being elected?

pa28

(6,145 posts)
224. Like the two posters up top I'll say "all along" as well.
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 05:27 AM
Nov 2013

I remember a funny piece from the financial press in 2009 that has stuck with me until this day. A fund manager was discussing candidate Obama with a colleague and the topic was how "safe" this guy was to their mutual interest.

The author was chortling because Obama was a University of Chicago guy and that particular institution is not exactly known for producing people who disagree with a capital based program.

He knew Obama was "safe". Anything he said in public to the contrary was just rhetoric.

totodeinhere

(13,058 posts)
43. This is a thread about Obama's comments about NAFTA. As your link indicates there is already
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:40 PM
Nov 2013

thread on the other topic that you brought up. Why are you trying to change the subject of this thread?

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
20. I am no Hillary fan, but I do remember her campaign circulating the anti-Obama point that he had
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:01 PM
Nov 2013

met with the Canadians and assured them that NAFTA would not be undone. At the time, as a big Obama supporter I thought it was just campaign propaganda. But now I believe it was true.

DURHAM D

(32,609 posts)
22. Yep. Austan Goolsbee (Obama's chief economic adviser during the primary) met
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:14 PM
Nov 2013

with Canadian officials to tell them candidate Obama was just kidding about reforms to NAFTA. The press reported it but somehow it was Hillary's fault that they reported it.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
103. +1 n/t
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 12:27 AM
Nov 2013

I hope that whomever Obama had spinning for him in 2008 goes to work for a real progressive this time round.

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
21. Anyone have a link of U.S. population trends (other than what's on census.gov)
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:06 PM
Nov 2013

that may be influenced by NAFTA?

It's well known that the populations of urban areas are increasing as more people migrate out of small towns.

I was curious to know if there is any kind of correlation between NAFTA's signing and population migration. Did it speed up? Had it already started? Or, was there no effect?

treestar

(82,383 posts)
226. There's nothing substantive about this use of TPP
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 07:42 AM
Nov 2013

to rile everyone up. No explanations or support or facts.

Why is it such a bad thing?

And don't go "are you kidding" and link me to several editorials on it.

Find some article that truly explains it.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
50. It's cute when people that live in and vote in the United States of America
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:46 PM
Nov 2013

get lectured by people that do neither. I know why I take part in this debate - it is about our future in the US.

Why do you? You contribute nothing but snide commentary. If you have it so good, go back to your own countries politics and crow about them there. If you have it so bad, go back to your own countries politics and complain about them there.

You have a right, because this is the USA to voice our opinion on everything and anything. What you do not have the right to do is vote. That probably pisses you off more than anything, unless you just get off on undermining our nation.

I like most of our Canadian neighbors, and would offer a hand to them, but their right wing is nasty.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
55. I look forward to the day
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:50 PM
Nov 2013

when such nonsense it categorized as nonsense and political theater. Because you cannot be serious.

Phlem

(6,323 posts)
38. Your just a hater. Be a good Dem and love everything he says!
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:38 PM
Nov 2013

You never loved him like we do. So you see why it doesn't make sense to you.





-p

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
61. Listen to the Canadians that can't even vote in this country
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 06:55 PM
Nov 2013

since they are the voice of wisdom - since they neither live nor vote here.

Phlem

(6,323 posts)
63. I hear you brother.
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 07:02 PM
Nov 2013

But I've been on this since he was elected. At least now, some people are waking up. You should have heard the shit (ALL of the SHIT) I got for my stance. Bipartisanship, what kind of brick do you have to be to know that there's isn't a snowballs chance in hell that was going to work.

But you are correct, I became a US citizen, I wasn't born here and perspectives from other countries are just as important as ours.

I would venture you get shovel fulls too.



-p

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
71. I know, you crack me up :)
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 07:14 PM
Nov 2013

It's delightful to see badmouthers ... who aren't even able to do anything yell at those who are busy doing it. I delight in your mockery!

Response to SidDithers (Reply #68)

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
116. Why do you even post here?
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 03:55 AM
Nov 2013

I don't think I've ever seen you offer anything but that silly emoticon.

Response to Marr (Reply #116)

Bobbie Jo

(14,341 posts)
100. so....
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 12:10 AM
Nov 2013

if I make such an embarrassing error in the midst of a smart ass remark, please feel free to correct me.


no shit.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
168. When you make a smart remark, I'm sure someone will.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 04:14 PM
Nov 2013

Oh wait, you said smart ass remark. I stand corrected.

Bobbie Jo

(14,341 posts)
174. lol
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 04:44 PM
Nov 2013

My 12 year old thought your post was hilarious and clever. Of course, he gets a kick out of fart jokes too.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
178. Glad I amused somebody else
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 05:07 PM
Nov 2013

as much as making that crack amused me ! Give your 12 year old a hug for knowing good humor when he sees it

treestar

(82,383 posts)
65. That piece doesn't really prove the job loss is caused solely by NAFTA
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 07:08 PM
Nov 2013

Just sort of states it. Mexico is a lot poorer, so it's hard to believe they are prospering at our expense. Their unemployment rate is so high it's really hard to believe they got the jobs.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
74. The estimates are that NAFTA cost about 700,000 jobs since Clinton signed it
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 07:18 PM
Nov 2013
As of 2010, U.S. trade deficits with Mexico totaling $97.2 billion had displaced 682,900 U.S. jobs. Of those jobs, 116,400 are likely economy-wide job losses because they were displaced between 2007 and 2010, when the U.S. labor market was severely depressed.

<...>

http://www.epi.org/publication/heading_south_u-s-mexico_trade_and_job_displacement_after_nafta1/
 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
75. Which is alarming
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 07:27 PM
Nov 2013

and isn't a strong argument for TPP.

It's a bad idea, and I hope that Obama dismisses it as such.

 

go west young man

(4,856 posts)
110. NAFTA is a drop of water in the bucket compared to all offshoring of US jobs since 1978.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 01:52 AM
Nov 2013

Link here: http://www.morssglobalfinance.com/the-loss-of-american-manufacturing-jobs-what-are-the-facts/

This is why TTP is still a terrible deal for the average American worker. It's good for The top 1% as it increases their "intellectual Property rights" across the board thereby providing them with even more money. Hence the reason the rest of the globe is up in arms about it. They too will lose money to the top 1% in the US.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
144. Do the other countries protest it the same way.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 10:49 AM
Nov 2013

IMO this issue is being used to imply government leaders are all part of some cabal of the 1%, even in countries where they are elected by the people. Not truly understood.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
141. That too just states it, but doesn't say how they come to the conclusion
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 10:45 AM
Nov 2013

Are they just assuming it from the trade deficit?

Further if these things did not work in one way or another, they know that for when they negotiate the next one. There are several of them out there, so have they all resulted in trade imbalance? And does that have anything to do with our weak economy as opposed to the trade agreement itself? It'd be nice if they tried to explain rather than just telling us. Anyone talking about it can have an agenda.



eridani

(51,907 posts)
108. You're kidding, right? The Mexican 1% is doing just fine, as is our 1%
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 01:25 AM
Nov 2013

--and the Canadian 1%. It's just everyone else who's fucked.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
142. No, I'm wanting an explanation and not just a conclusion
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 10:46 AM
Nov 2013

So far none. I don't believe a thing just because it's written.

For the record I looked at the government's page, which sings the praises of the TPP in a similar way, so I'm not buying that either.

If you think for yourself, you want to know what they are basing that conclusion on, not just accept it because it fits an agenda.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
207. Trade agreements specifically designed to benefit corporate power at the expense of
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 08:54 PM
Nov 2013

--people and elected governments hurt the 99%. Who knew?

eridani

(51,907 posts)
222. Yes--to favor corporations and hurt real people
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 02:40 AM
Nov 2013
http://www.techrepublic.com/resource-library/whitepapers/looking-for-local-labor-market-effects-of-nafta-copy1/

Using US Census data for 1990 and 2000, the authors estimate effects of the NAFTA agreement on the US wages. They look for any indication of effects of the agreement on the local labor markets dependent on industries vulnerable to import competition from Mexico, and the workers employed in industries competing with Mexican imports. They find evidence of only modest local labor-market effects, but evidence for a strong industry effect, dramatically lowering wage growth for blue-collar workers in the most affected industries. These distributional effects are much larger than aggregate welfare effects estimated by other authors.


http://www.epi.org/publication/press_releases_failedexppr/

In the United States, NAFTA:

* Put downward pressure on wages and living standards;
* Created “deep and probably chronic” trade deficits with its neighbors;
* Displaced more than 400,000 jobs;
* Weakened workers’ rights and reduced employee bargaining power;
* Exacerbated environmental and public-health damage along the U.S.-Mexico border;
* Compromised food safety standards; and
* Increased drug trafficking due to insufficient border inspections and heavier truck traffic from Mexico.

In Mexico, NAFTA:

* Precipitated the 1994 peso collapse, which led to an economic depression;
* Eliminated more than 2 million jobs;
* Reduced real hourly wages by 27% from 1994 levels;
* Caused the failure of more than 28,000 small businesses; and
* Weakened labor standards and increased violations of worker rights.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
227. Same old friggin' conclusions
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 07:45 AM
Nov 2013

Where is the proof, the actual proof that wages and living standards went down and that it was all due to NAFTA?

Job outsourcing started in the 70s. Other factors are in play.

Do real people really have nothing to do with corporations? They don't buy from them or work for them? This is getting silly. It's like the left's substitute for the right's rage at other groups of people.

Why should international trade be completely unregulated? What would be the economic result of that?

eridani

(51,907 posts)
230. Fine--keep working for the 1%
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 07:54 AM
Nov 2013

I'm done with people who think its wonderful that half the families in the country at poverty or near poverty level (and therefore no discretionary income to spend growing the economy) and who think that shitty jobs that can't support families are great. Bilateral trade agreements used to work just fine to regulate trade, and there is no fucking reason whatsoever to have "trade" agreements that have fuckall to do with trade, but only to do with giving vicious amoral sociopaths the right to override the decisions of elected government.s

marmar

(77,077 posts)
78. It's clear from reading some of these responses......
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 07:52 PM
Nov 2013

....... that defending the indefensible is becoming harder and harder.


 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
83. Indeed, it has
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 08:55 PM
Nov 2013

and no one that is a Democratic party member likes defending it because it sucks ass.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
82. Better Believe it used tropes
Mon Nov 18, 2013, 08:52 PM
Nov 2013

to get the point across. When DUers state a position with wisdom to back them up? It seems rather like sour grapes to compare them to a person that did nothing but sour grapes the community.

When you realize that good is being done, the best thing you can do is stop criticizing it.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
130. BBI used trolling. And this thread is useful as flypaper...it tells us who on DU
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 09:59 AM
Nov 2013

still hasn't figured out that you don't renegotiate NAFTA when you're already in talks to supercede it.

Still...it makes for an amusing thread.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
165. I assume you think
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 03:57 PM
Nov 2013
superseding NAFTA with TPP will prove beneficial to Americans since it will allow the influx of goods in the US with none of the guarantees that we can sue for redress over gross negligence and harm. Or the fact that pharmaceutical companies will gain unprecedented ability to evade claims of negligence. Oh, wait, lets discuss copyright law which will be impacted to the benefit of a few at the expense of everyone else, patent law problems, far-reaching DCMA implications ... etc.

Oh wait, you are a lawyer. This probably looks like paradise and more business.
 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
175. Thank you for conceeding my point...and proving that this thread is flamebait.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 04:49 PM
Nov 2013

I have no opinion on the TPP yet, because so little of it has been released. As a copyright holder...and a patent holder, I look forward to strengthening my claims against piracy.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
179. Oh my
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 05:09 PM
Nov 2013

I thought you were a lawyer and thus able to interpret law. Oh well, I guess we all learn at one point or another. I suggest you take a second look.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
182. Jealousy never wears well on anyone. If you are ever so fortunate as to inherit
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 05:21 PM
Nov 2013

a patent, I am sure you will not disdain the income thus derived.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
183. LOL
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 05:26 PM
Nov 2013

I'm sure you are alone on this board in having a patent. There is no way on Earth that someone like myself that disagrees with you could have inherited one and still be concerned about the ramifications of the TPP.

Yes, you, indeed, are alone as the sole possessor of patents, copyrights and, well, bad spelling attempts. Okay, you aren't the only one with the latter, and you certainly aren't the only one that is the former. "Conceed"? Really?

Use a real dictionary. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=conceed

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
184. Aerows..making fun of a dyslexic who forgot to use the spellcheck should be beneath you.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 05:33 PM
Nov 2013

Since you've reduced the argument to spelling mistakes, you've lost it.

We were in a thread together that discussed it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021495005

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
185. Oh, you are dyslexic?
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 05:40 PM
Nov 2013

Sorry to hear that. It doesn't make your argument any stronger, nor does it make me think any higher of it.

When someone tells me that I am jealous on an internet forum, then makes an appeal to sympathy (I'm a dyslexic attorney!) ... I pretty much have their number. I think we both know it.

Use a real argument against TPP, not bogus appeals to authority, appeals to party loyalty, and the last stand - "You are just jealous". That's the mark of someone that has lost it. Of course, I got playful with you, and you know exactly how, and you ended up with "appeal that I'm a weakling and you are picking on me."

Back to arguing substance. What is it about the TPP that you find appealing and beneficial for the average American citizen?

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
187. You were in a thread where I discussed my dyslexia...cited above. Also, a simple
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 05:43 PM
Nov 2013

Gooogle search will find other discussions of it.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
188. That has zero bearing
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 05:49 PM
Nov 2013

on the actual discussion at hand. Why do you think that the TPP will benefit the majority of Americans, and why do you support it?

Does it personally insult you that I ask you a question on a discussion board about the discussion at hand? I'd think you would be more than willing to share how and why you believe this is beneficial.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
190. For asking you a question
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 05:54 PM
Nov 2013

about a policy on a discussion board and not taking the bait when you attempted to deviate from answering that question every way that you could?

You owe the board an apology for insulting our intelligence by not being able to offer up a single reason why the TPP benefits Americans, yet asserting that we should just blindly support it.

Way to go - you have mastered the art of deflection, but you still have said absolutely nothing of substance. I gave you my reasons why I don't support TPP. So have a lot of people. I have yet to hear an actual argument from a supporter of TPP.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
199. Some of us have lives, and children to care for, and dinner to cook. You still owe me an apology.nt
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 07:41 PM
Nov 2013
 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
200. Some of us do, too
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 07:53 PM
Nov 2013

and finished doing that, for now. And are waiting for an answer to our question. I hope you have a good dinner. I did. So did the family. Stop by Cooking & Baking where we can discuss recipes and it is totally neutral.

But no, that doesn't let you off of the hook in GD of explaining what benefit you think the average American citizen will get if TPP is implemented. Americans, on the whole, got screwed under NAFTA. This one looks to screw the American people even further. It's tort reform, deregulation, and more corporate subsidies all in one package.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
201. You still owe me an apology. And I already answered your question in post #175. Less heat, more
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 07:56 PM
Nov 2013

reading might be in order for you.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
202. That was an answer?
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 08:04 PM
Nov 2013

"Little of it has been released".

"I don't know, but I support what is in it, even though when asked questions that are germane, I really don't know."

And you want an apology?

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
203. I did not write what is contained in that second quotation mark. So you owe me another apology,
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 08:16 PM
Nov 2013

for falsely claiming that I wrote it.

You've resorted to making fun of a dyslexic person's spelling mistakes, and to falsely claiming that I wrote something I did not. You should apologize.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
204. Anything but addressing the question with regard to the policy
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 08:21 PM
Nov 2013

I understand why you won't. I think everyone in the thread understands why, and false outrage is a bucket that won't carry water on this one.

But hey, keep trying.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
205. Again, you have claimed that I wrote something I did not. I answered your question in post 175.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 08:26 PM
Nov 2013

You've continued this thread by making fun of my spelling mistakes, and by then claiming I wrote something I did not.

What I find unsurprising is that you simply ignored my answer to you in post 175, because you could not debate it.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
206. I couldn't debate what you wrote in post #175
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 08:45 PM
Nov 2013

because you didn't say anything.

I can't debate a position when one party states "I don't know anything". I offered you facts, reason and history on why NAFTA was a bad idea, and why what I have read of TPP is equally bad policy. We have nothing to debate except you claiming you don't know what is in the policy, but you think it has merit. And, of course, you claiming to have hurt feelings.

When you actually have read a bit about TPP (hint: you can find all about it on wikileaks), have read up on NAFTA (which has been public knowledge for over a decade) and can find a cogent argument, please feel free to look me up. Otherwise, this is just theater on your part because you don't have anything of relevance to say with regard to the discussion - which is the policy. That is what this thread is about - not msanthrope feeling hurt because msanthrope still can't articulate what is so great about TPP, and Aerows pointing that out.

Aerows has pointed out why TPP is bad. Now the onus is on msanthrope to point out why it is good. That is usually how adult exchanges on policy go. Unless, of course, one has no intention of arguing based upon merit of said topic, and instead has a different goal.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
208. Exactly. I told you I hadn't any opinion on the TPP. You refused to accept that.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 09:23 PM
Nov 2013

Then you went on to insult my spelling, although I am dyslexic, and then claimed I wrote something that I didn't. In fact, you've persisted in doing that by claiming I wrote this:

"I don't know anything".
I didn't, and you know that.

That's not debate. That's you making stuff up, whole cloth, because you are quite angry at me. Whereas I am amused.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
209. Uh huh
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 09:28 PM
Nov 2013

There are a lot of amused folks in this thread, me included. A lot of folks making things up out of whole cloth, and I'm not included in that group.

Proceed, litigator.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
210. You most definitely made up quotes that I did not write. I've pointed them out. I think when
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 09:34 PM
Nov 2013

someone does that, they know they've lost the argument. Heck--I still don't understand why you are so angry that I don't have an opinion on the TPP. What's it to you?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
212. Angry?
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 09:42 PM
Nov 2013

I don't think I've expressed anything but indifference to your arguments, yet, because you haven't made one. What's it to you that I think TPP is a bad law right along with NAFTA being a bad law? I have already stated that TPP will gut many existing laws in favor of corporate interests. I've stated my opinion clearly.

I figured that since you had so much vehemence against the argument that I presented up thread that you knew something about the policy we were discussing. Now you are saying you don't have an opinion on it. Okay.

That's about the worst example of not having an opinion on something that I've ever seen, but good enough. Take care, and I hope in the future that your "not having an opinion" arguments go better for you than this one did.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
213. Quite angry, because you've persisted after getting an answer you did not like, made fun of me, and
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 09:44 PM
Nov 2013

made up quotes I did not write.

Only someone very angry does that. Very angry.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
215. Angry?
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 09:50 PM
Nov 2013

I'm actually having a ball at this point. Far from angry, just shaking my head.

Do you need a backhoe to go with that shovel, or are you fine with the hole you are already in, my friend? I'd toss you a rope, but something tells me that you aren't the type to take it

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
217. Oh no, about three posts up
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 09:54 PM
Nov 2013

I started having fun. But no, indifference isn't one of those emotions now .

Now I'm just snickering, enjoying some ice cream and seeing how far you want to go with this.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
235. You've been locked out of this thread, so I shall only hope for
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 08:56 AM
Nov 2013

you that the ice cream was delicious.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
225. BBI simply posted articles from right wing sources
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 07:39 AM
Nov 2013

Or any article critical of Democrats, as long as the criticism was illogical and unwarranted. What are these "tropes?"

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
102. Here's the thing. I don't get how Obama supporters have standing to criticize Clinton.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 12:24 AM
Nov 2013

It's a fair observation to say that they're both too corporate, and I would agree. But it's not at all fair to say that Clinton is corporate in a way that Obama isn't.

Clinton's 2008 campaign promises, especially on the economy and corporations were mostly to the left of Obama - especially if you ignore Obama's promises that he never attempted to keep (eg. lifting the SS cap)

I want to do better next time 'round than Obama. I'd like to improve to a greater degree than Clinton is likely to deliver.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
106. Really?
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 12:47 AM
Nov 2013

What the heck were Hillary's promises on the economy and corporations?

I don't remember any.

I do remember she was very big on tax credits. Also, the fact that Obama never attempted to raise the cap on SS certainly does not put him to the right of Hillary, who took the side of the poor, poor, "middle class" worker making $120,000 a year.

Clearly, she felt THEIR pain. While I at $12,000 a year was clueless about how much those people would suffer if they had to pay the same percent of their income in FICA taxes as I do.

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
111. Bill Clinton, Obama, Hillary
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 03:06 AM
Nov 2013

Not a hair's breadth of difference in the trade policies of these three. Time to stop believing the campaign rhetoric and supporting politicians who will support us.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
129. As are the usual du nationalists.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 09:54 AM
Nov 2013
This fusion of populism and nationalism is behind the creation of many contemporary far right movements in Europe, in East Asia, and in the United States.

http://www.fairobserver.com/360theme/populism-nationalism-and-globalisation-–-new-far-right

... one ideological doctrine about which there is almost full consensus regarding its importance for understanding the far-right worldview, it is that of nationalism.

http://www.ctc.usma.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/ChallengersFromtheSidelines.pdf

Neither all globalists nor all nationalists are right wingers. There are progressive and reactionary adherents of both.
 

cali

(114,904 posts)
133. that's an erroneous claim. We aren't nationalists.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 10:05 AM
Nov 2013

We are for real and fair trade, not corporate structured agreements that benefit corporations at the expense if issues like patents, the environment, etc..

The TPP is largely not a trade agreement. Only about 20% of it deals with actual trade issues.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
136. Fair enough. Fair trade that encompasses respect for human and labor rights and the environment
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 10:30 AM
Nov 2013

is good for the US and good for the world. That is not what we have in the WTO now nor in the trade agreements we have negotiated in the past. If the TPP proves to be different in this regard, it may be good. If not, it is bad.

I don't agree with those who believe that globalism (the attitude or policy of placing the interests of the entire world above those of individual nations) is inherently evil. Indeed liberals are more favorable inclined towards trade and immigration (interacting with the rest of the world) than is the conservative base who prefer the nationalism of Fortress America with more limited immigration and trade.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
145. No. There is global populism and nationalist populism.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 10:55 AM
Nov 2013
Populism is a political doctrine where one sides with "the people" against "the elites".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populism#United_States

One is predicated on what is good for the people of the world. One is more focused on what is good for the people of a particular nation. Populism does not have to be nation-based.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
172. And if what is "good for the people of the world" (sic) happens to line a few already-rich pockets,
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 04:27 PM
Nov 2013

then I guess that is just a coincidence, eh?

pampango

(24,692 posts)
152. I agree. "Nationalist" and "corporatist" are far from opposites-both are favorites of conservatives.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 12:19 PM
Nov 2013

"Nationalist" is, IMHO, more closely the opposite of "globalist" contained in the post I was responding to.

Globalism: the attitude or policy of placing the interests of the entire world above those of individual nations.

Nationalism is the opposite: the attitude or policy of putting the interests of one's own nation above those of the rest of the world.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
169. Nonsense. Globalist is another synonym for Corporatist. You are manipulating words, again.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 04:24 PM
Nov 2013

In addition, you left out the part about deregulation, stratification of wealth, outsourcing, inequality, environmental devastation, etc. That's the heart and soul of globalism.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
191. Equating globalism with corporatism is your opinion. You are making your own synonyms now.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 06:12 PM
Nov 2013

One can be a global populist or a global corporatist. One can also be a national populist or a national corporatist. Nothing about populism restricts its practice to defined nation states.

"deregulation, stratification of wealth ..." all have also happened under nationalist governments with high tariffs and restrictive immigration laws. (See Russia today or the US in the 1920's.) Countries with progressive taxes and strong unions and safety nets in which trade is large percentage of the economy (Canada, Germany and many others) have more equitable distributions of income and better regulated economies than do countries with regressive taxes, weak unions and safety nets in which trade plays a smaller role in the economy (the US).

I await an example historically or currently of an "anti-globalist" government that rivals the income equality of the Nordic countries which are very 'globalist' in their trade policies.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
237. Reality has to be a factor, pampango. In the *United States*, "globalism" been devastating
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 11:20 AM
Nov 2013

for working people.

You can explain that globalism has been less destructive in other nations, but you are playing make believe if you pretend globalism hasn't gutted the American middle class.

In fact, you can't and won't make the foregoing argument, because it is patently false. So you call anybody who points out the inconsistencies in your bizarre worldview "nationalists", based on a made-up definition of the word idiosyncratic to you and you alone.

It's pathetic, pampango. And it's not working. Nobody is fooled. Not even you.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
170. PS: Have you *ever* had a positive response to your globalist talking points? I've yet to see it.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 04:25 PM
Nov 2013

Keep on fighting the good fight though.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
233. Globalism doesn't appear to be entirely wrong
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 07:58 AM
Nov 2013

In fact, the same people insist that there should be trials before we do drone strikes or take out terrorists in Yemen.

Yet it's wrong to trade with other nations and regulate that trade via agreements with the other nations.

The same people insist we have no right to spy on other countries.

But we can see what the common denominator is. They make a mistake and show their hand by using this as an issue.

They really just don't understand it, but think it looks good for the 1% vs. people meme they've set up.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
242. That does not make any point
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 01:21 PM
Nov 2013

Simple ad hominem that does nothing at all to contribute to the debate.

This is what you resort to when you have nothing to back up an argument. Are you afraid real research would make your conclusions a lot muddier or even wrong?

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
243. The post to which I responded is utter word salad. That is my point. It's not worth "debating". nt
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 01:24 PM
Nov 2013

treestar

(82,383 posts)
231. I don't even think it's that sophisticated
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 07:55 AM
Nov 2013

At this point they are just echoing each other.

Yet none of them could be credible in a real debate. They simply don't know what they are talking about. But they see an issue where it looks like they can exploit the corporation vs. people meme they have set up.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
239. Ignorance isn't an argument. So, "People lost jobs due to NAFTA? I hadn't heard!"
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 11:25 AM
Nov 2013

isn't an argument worth addressing. Educate yourself before you join the discussion.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
240. If you want to argue people lost jobs due to NAFTA
Wed Nov 20, 2013, 01:19 PM
Nov 2013

Then support that argument with something. Just "I'm right, you're stupid," usually doesn't work to convince most people.

No one has ever really supported that argument. Links to editorials that make the same conclusion without backing it up aren't sufficient.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
146. I don't think he was bullshitting at all.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 10:59 AM
Nov 2013

I think it is now clear that he wants to build off of Bill Clintons NAFTA legacy. Why he wants to is beyond me. It has become pretty clear that Obama wants NAFTA on steroids. His support and work on the TPP shows that he wants to renegotiate NAFTA. He wants a bigger and badder NAFTA.

Orrex

(63,203 posts)
153. I once saw him use a Canadian "quarter" in an AMERICAN soda machine
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 12:56 PM
Nov 2013

Is there no end to his corruption?

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
154. The nation was had.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 01:00 PM
Nov 2013

And certainly not just with regard to trade agreements.

Let's not allow that to happen again.



lark

(23,097 posts)
159. Well, this would seem to answer the question as to what happened to Obama to make him right wing?
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 02:07 PM
Nov 2013

The answer is he was always right wing on financial issues and the campaigner Obama was a Trojan Horse.

BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
164. I remember that.
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 03:52 PM
Nov 2013

Didn't one of his advisers, Goolsbe, privately assure the Canadians that Obama didn't really mean it, even at the time?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
192. Look at the bullshitters that have
Tue Nov 19, 2013, 06:29 PM
Nov 2013

ended up in this thread. All of them saying everything but "If you are against TPP, you hate Obama" but none of them offering a single example of why it would benefit American citizens. Lots of deflection, lots of claims of being an Obama hater, lots of in the weeds wandering from the topic, but none of them say why it is a good thing for the average American.

If you are going to stand up for a policy, I would think your defense should be something better than "I support Obama and everything he does."

I have serious concerns about TPP that have nothing to do with who is President. I'd dislike it if it was JFK, FDR or Jesus Christ suggesting it. None of that makes me less of a liberal, none of it makes me less of a Democrat, and absolutely none of it makes me a blind sheep of the MSM (which wants it because it eases lawsuits for corporations). It makes me a person that gives a damn about the direction our country is headed.

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