The Progressive Abortion Purity Test

[renie408]

I would like to apologize for my 'Yea, Abortion!!' thread that got pulled. It actually wasn't intended to be flamebait, I was trying to make a point; but it was poorly made and I understand why it was pulled.

That said, as a woman who has had an abortion and who has known other women who have had abortions, every single one of us came out of the experience with slightly differing emotions....or vastly differing emotions. I wish I had not had to have mine. I DO sometimes think about the child who might have been. What would they be like? Did I do the right thing? But what about the two kids I have now? Would that child have precluded their existence? I cannot go back and it's not like it is something I dwell on. Actually, the only time I think about it is when somebody on here brings abortion up.

Wendy Davis made a comment to the effect that she wished there was never a need for abortion. I understand that. I agree. I can't help it. It's how I feel. I understand that other people feel differently. So, which of us is RIGHT?? Well, there seem to be a lot of people here who think that they are equipped to make that judgment. If you are one of those people, you are wrong. No two people are going to feel the same and as long as they support the right to choose, they are progressive enough.

I strongly support the right to choose. I will fight tooth and nail to preserve this right for all women. This is a decision between a woman and herself. The end. ONLY the woman involved can understand what the choice means to her and whether it is the right choice for her. There should be no stigma attached to having made this choice. I am not ashamed of my abortion and in no way do I think other women should be ashamed.

But I have to say, I found myself sitting here crying when I was reading some of the responses to the Wendy Davis thread. While I am not ashamed of my decision, it was not easy. i think it was probably the right choice. I was not equipped at 19 to be a mother either emotionally or financially. Maybe if I had never had children, I wouldn't think about it. I don't know.

I feel like there are people here for whom it is not enough to just support the right to choose. They land on every thread about abortion letting us all know that abortion is no biggie...a positive choice...and making those of us who think differently feel as if we are not quite good enough progressives.

[LittleBlue]

1. Extremism is bad no matter how it manifests

The people telling you how you must feel are too wrapped up in ideology.

[daleanime]

2. K&R....

its OK to feel, please make sure you have some one to talk to about it. Its important to take care of yourself.

[Lars39]

3. There is a vast difference in making abortion rare by

promoting education, contraceptives and a good economy than by making abortion rare by forcing providers and women to jump thru unnecessary hoops.

[renie408]

6. Absolutely.

I totally agree.

I think the problem is that if you ever say, "I wish abortions never had to happen." some here immediately assume you are anti-choice. Which is just ridiculous. Someone responded to the Wendy Davis thread with "What about abortions for rape victims??". Ok. I wish noone ever had to have an abortion because they were raped. Seriously. I really do wish that. That doesn't mean that I don't think rape victims should have the choice of whether or not to have an abortion.

I think that sometimes people are so busy chasing their ideology, they forget that they are talking to and about PEOPLE.

[Th1onein]

9. I am anti-abortion and I absolutely agree with you on this.

Those "hoops" are just sneaky crap.

[SunSeeker]

15. No one is "pro-abortion" for fuck's sake.

What we progressives believe is that abortion should be rare and legal. NO ONE thinks abortions are cool things to go, no one would do it for the hell of it. People are no more "pro-abortion" than they are pro-gall baldder surgery or pro-apendectomy. It makes no sense to be pro or anti a legal and necessary medical procedure. Everytime I see someone use the term "anti-abortion," it pisses me off because it shows they bought into the propaganda word game that accuses pro-choice people of being "pro-abortion," as if they want more abortions or something.

[pnwmom]

29. Actually, people here were strongly arguing they should NOT be rare.

That was the topic of a very lively discussion in the last couple days.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024013198

Abortion should NOT be rare.

[SunSeeker]

32. I think her point was when some talk about making abortions rare, it is by denying them to women.

Unfortunately, until we have universal access to free birth control and reduce rape to a rarity, abortion will not be rare. Given today's reality, abortion is not and cannot be rare.

[pnwmom]

33. No, she was criticizing Democrats who say that in the best of all worlds

abortions would be safe, freely accessible, and rare.

She wasn't talking about people who want to deny them to women; she was talking about pro-choice Dems who would like them to be unnecessary and therefore rare.

[SunSeeker]

37. No, that is not what she said.

She said:

When we start making it "rare" we start to deny Womens rights. Period.

Under our current reality, her statement is correct. Until we make the need for abortion rare, we should not try to make abortion rare, because it will necessarily involve denying women abortions they need.

[PeaceNikki]

38. Wonderful clarification, thank you for that.

[el_bryanto]

50. I guess the question is that do DUers who use that language want legal proscriptions on Abortion

or is the argument that they want Abortion to be rare more a statement of long term desires that society evolves in such a way as Abortion is rare?

Bryant

[PeaceNikki]

52. I contend those who support choice have a vested interest in removing the harmful language

We should discuss the harm, stigma and confusion that can be caused by the words we choose. ESPECIALLY with people who support choice and may not realize the potential harm or that the party has updated the language. The words in question over the past few weeks are "safe, legal and rare" - specifically taking note of the word rare. In context of abortion (not unwanted pregnancies, abortion). The national party removed it because of the fact it's open to interpretation... and all of the reasons outlined in previous discussions.

*I* get that you and other liberals are very very likely to fully support choice. *I* get what you *MEAN* by rare. We *all* want to make unwanted pregnancies rare... but do you not see, even a little, how using the "rare" language can be harmful? There have been massive attacks in every state on abortion since 1989. And they are getting worse. And, as such, I feel it's incredibly important to discuss how our language forms our societal beliefs and vice versa. To quote LeftyMom from another thread...

LeftyMom
19. That's the political genius and moral cowardice of the phrase.
To pro-choice people it means "unplanned pregnancies shouldn't be common, for women's sake." To the mushy middle it means "abortions for deserving women but not for those trampy other women." To anti-choicers it means "let's whittle away at legalized abortion even if we can't get a ban past the Supremes yet."

It's a political Rorschach ink blot. It means what you want it to mean.

Here is this is the Democratic Party altered platform (with "safe, legal, rare" removed):

Protecting A Woman's Right to Choose. The Democratic Party strongly and unequivocally supports Roe v. Wade and a woman's right to make decisions regarding her pregnancy, including a safe and legal abortion, regardless of ability to pay. We oppose any and all efforts to weaken or undermine that right. Abortion is an intensely personal decision between a woman, her family, her doctor, and her clergy; there is no place for politicians or government to get in the way. We also recognize that health care and education help reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and thereby also reduce the need for abortions. We strongly and unequivocally support a woman's decision to have a child by providing affordable health care and ensuring the availability of and access to programs that help women during pregnancy and after the birth of a child, including caring adoption programs.

Ideally, abortion rates drop as a byproduct of the rest but we keep the focus on what it should be. We typically don't fight to expand access to something we want to be rare.

See? It's possible to support the end game of 'rare' and leave the frequency out of the policy discussion to avoid the confusion and/or potential harm.

The discussion of this is not new. It's just new to DU. It's not that controversial.

[el_bryanto]

60. Well it clearly is a bit controversial

or there wouldn't be 300-400 post discussions of it. I do understand what you are saying, though. And I also see what you mean about a mushy middle (which is clearly where I fit).

Bryant

[Pretzel_Warrior]

132. I contest that you are wrong about this.

It is not harmful to attempt finding common ground on controversial subjects to make progress. As we fight to oppose these state-level roll backs of women's rights, we can also frame it clearly that we'd like to create a society and norms of education and access that make most abortions unnecessary and therefor rare. But at the same time hold out the non negotiable stand that the state should not be allowed their gradual encroachment on a health matter between a woman and her doctor.

[PeaceNikki]

133. k

[treestar]

126. IMO that's never the point of rare

Not to make it harder, but not like the Soviet Union was, where I recall it was just used for birth control. That doesn't sound healthy and it would be better for more access to birth control. It's really trying to say let's have better access to birth control and more use of it, which I can't argue with; abortions are not easy to go through and so sparing women that is the idea.

[SunSeeker]

128. I wish you were right.

The most legislatively successful people who are trying to make abortion rare right now are the ones who are are doing it by denying women access not only to abortion but birth control. Of course, they are not successful in reducing unwanted pregnancies; just the opposite in fact.

Abortion is "easy to go through" WHEN COMPARED TO FORCED CHILDBIRTH.

[Th1onein]

36. There is no need to be rude to me.

I am well aware, as a progressive, what progressives believe. I haven't bought into any propaganda, but you have to find a way to make yourself known. You can either say "pro-life," anti-choice," or "anti-abortion." I use the terms interchangeably, but most people know what I'm talking about. I really don't think anyone wants more abortions, but there are some here who will tell you that that is not true.

[SunSeeker]

40. Anti-abortion means anti-choice in America.

Being anti-choice is not a progressive position. I am not being "rude." I am stating a fact.

[newcriminal]

42. you are not being rude

you are just being wrong.

I am anti-abortion and pro-choice

[SunSeeker]

45. She just said she uses anti-choice and anti-abortion "interchangeably"

So do most Americans. As those terms are understood, it makes no sense to say you are both pro-choice and anti-abortion. The terms are contradictory as they are used and understood in our country.

[newcriminal]

46. no I didn't

[SunSeeker]

48. The poster I was responding to did, and you stepped in on her behalf.

And she is right, in our country the terms anti-abortion and anti-choice are interchageable. That is why the position you describe makes no sense. You can't be anti-choice and pro-choice.

[newcriminal]

49. didn't say I was anti-choice and pro-choice

I said I am pro-choice and anti-abortion.
I didn't step in on her behalf. I stepped in to say you're wrong.

[SunSeeker]

62. You can't be pro-choice AND anti-abortion as those two terms are understood.

Anti-abortion means anti-choice. I am not wrong. You are apparently trying to create your own language.

[LostOne4Ever]

74. You are wrong

And it is you are creating your own language...or rather relying on the misinfo of the right, the M$M definition, and the understanding of of the ignorant. Those groups don't get to dictate language.

Anti-abortion-Against abortion
Pro-Choice-You believe that abortion should be legal, accessible, and up to the woman.

Anti-abortion and pro-choice- You are personally against abortion, but don't think it should be illegal.

It is a common position among many pro-choice advocates, and without it there would be no "choice."

[SunSeeker]

76. Are you "personally against" abortion in cases of rape and health of the mother?

It is one thing to say you wouldn't choose abortion for yourself; it is another thing to say you are against abortion. If you are against abortion, you are not pro-choice. It is your definitions that are helping the right wing.

If you want to create your own definitions for words, that is up to you. But there is nothing progressive about being against abortion when a woman wants it.

To suggest progressives can be "anti-abortion" deliberately misleads people and gives the anti-abortion nutbags on the right cover and legitimacy.

[LostOne4Ever]

77. Again you are the one making up definitions

Anti--Opposed

All it says that one is opposed. Not how or in what way. Saying you are anti-abortion and pro-choice makes it clear that one is personally opposed but feels it should be legal. Everyone, understands this unless they are being intentionally ignorant. If they said anti-legal abortion that would be another thing. But no one is saying that.

One can be anti-lying but also be pro-freedom of speech for example.

And the only ones helping the right wing are the ones trying to divide us. We need all the support we can get and here we have a subgroup doing everything they can to repel and divide us. THAT DOES NOT HELP.

And no, saying one is anti-abortion but also pro-choice does not mislead anyone nor give anyone cover. Trying to say that people who use the words "rare" or "anti-abortion and pro-choice" help the right wing is just as disengenious as saying that everyone who is opposed to the word rare make us look callous and helps the right wing.

You are doing one, we are NOT doing the other. If there is one side hurting the pro-choice movement it is not us.

[Th1onein]

63. "FFS" is rude. But that's okay.

Welcome to my Ignore list.

[SunSeeker]

67. Anyone who is anti-abortion/anti-choice is rude, to put it mildly.

But I have no one on ignore. I am not afraid to confront anyone's arguments.

[PeaceNikki]

78. you're in good company on that one's ignore list

She infamously called abortion murder on DU a few years ago.

[SunSeeker]

110. Figures. Thanks. nt

[idwiyo]

130. You know they wouldn't be able to resist reading your posts, or mine, or anyone else' they 'ignore'.

Best part is they can't reply without making themselves look silly.

[moonlady0623]

13. Very well said

thank you

[Pretzel_Warrior]

4. kudos for telling your story and honestly confronting the emotions that come up

it is a point many of us make, but I believe it is very strong when coming from a woman who had a choice and made that choice. It seems pretty rational to say we should allow women this personal choice over their own bodies but as a society we'd also like to reduce the instances of a woman having to make that choice.

[uppityperson]

5. There is no one "right" way women feel, no way any "should" feel, a wide range of reasons and

feelings as to why and everything afterwards. It is very individualized and saying someone "should" feel any way is just plain wrong. In my opinion.

[winter is coming]

12. ^^ This. n/t

[pnwmom]

7. + a million

[bettyellen]

8. did someone actaully tell you that you should be juming for joy? I did not see that, nor did I

see anything at all to cry about in that thread. Does it really disturb you that some people do not get worked up about it exactly as much as you do? Would you prefer everyone feel as you do? Why would you expect that?

I know some people who feel very very sensitive about sex, couldn't imagine it without being deeply in love, and others that enjoy it very much, and often, with people they have no attachment to at all. Somehow, they are all okay in my book- I have no need or expectation people feel the same way about their bodies as I do. I don't need other people online to validate my decisions or feelings.

[renie408]

10. Thank you.

Do you not think it is interesting that you do not need other people online to validate your decisions or feelings, yet you feel compelled to pass judgment on the feelings of others? You just DID validate your own feelings by dissing mine. YOU saw nothing upsetting in the abortion discussion, therefore, there was nothing upsetting there, right?

Also, the 'jumping for joy' thing is akin to a straw man argument. I never said anything like that; this is the way you have to twist what I have said to suit what you need it to mean.

[bettyellen]

112. the "Yay abortion" was deliberately mischaracterizing those who support unfettered access

and flamebait. You throw bombs like that and get all sad and emotional at the reaction you get, really?
It's a complicated discussion, but making it all about your own emotions (not mine, sorry) is nonsense.
You don't get to be any body else here's moral compass. Or toss out flamebait and not get called on it.

[pnwmom]

22. There wasn't just one thread, there were many.

And there were people arguing that abortions are insignificant procedures and that it is wrong to say that ideally abortions would be unnecessary and therefore rare.

I believe there should be affordable access to abortion for all women. Period. But I also believe that for most women, they would rather not have been pregnant at all if the best choice turned out to be abortion. So in an ideal world, birth control would work, pregnancies would be uncomplicated, and abortions would be rare.

[SunSeeker]

64. In medical terms, most abortions are not complex procedures, which is what people are referring to.

I don't think anyone is saying abortions are in and of themselves insignificant. The one and only example provided to me in this thread of such a statement certainly did not say that. I am really troubled by this effort to vilify pro-choice progressives by claiming they think abortions are nothing, insignificant, "no biggie." An abortion is a VERY BIG DEAL to a woman who needs one. As Rev. Ragsdale wisely said, an abortion is a blessing to a women who needs one:

“When a woman finds herself pregnant due to violence and chooses an abortion, it is the violence that is the tragedy; the abortion is a blessing.

http://www.choicematters.org/2009/04/abortion-is-a-blessing/

Abortion may be an insignificant medical procedure, but it is everything but insignificant to the well-being of women. Abortion gives women freedom from slavery to our reproductive systems...and the men who would control them.

It really is all about women's liberty. There is nothing insignificant about that.

[pnwmom]

68. I'm not going to look for this now, but there was a lot more than that post.

Someone presented studies purporting to show that -- except in women at risk for various reasons -- there were no significant emotional reactions to an abortion either. It wasn't just a physically insignificant procedure; it also carried little emotional impact.

So the research basically sets aside most of the women and girls who might have an emotional reaction to an abortion -- and then reports that the remaining women suffered few negative feelings after an abortion.

[SunSeeker]

69. I think the term "insignificant" here is reference to the alternative.

I think I read about a study like that, and it concluded the most common emotion reaction to an abortion is relief. Makes sense to me. If you need an abortion, you are generally relieved after you get one. Whatever put you in the position of needing an abortion, be it rape, poverty, etc. would seem to be the more traumatic issue. I would tend to agree that the emotional impact of abortion is insignificant when compared to the emotional impact of being forced to give birth.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

134. And it can be a complicated medical procedure. Case by case.

[PeaceNikki]

135. So can a tooth extraction. But early termination is statistically FAR FAR safer than carrying

to term and delivery. That's just a fact, Jack.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

136. Nobody is denying that.

[PeaceNikki]

137. cool.

[SunSeeker]

164. LOL. I didn’t see your reply to PR and I used the same tooth extraction analogy.

Now people will think we read from the some "talking points" book, as apparently occurred to PR (see below). I WISH the pro choice movement was that organized!

But hey, I like how you think...reminds me of someone...

[PeaceNikki]

167. lol. GMTA!

[SunSeeker]

160. Of course. So can a tooth extraction. But in the vast majority of cases, they are simple. nt

[Pretzel_Warrior]

161. Is that standard talking point? It's just weird you two with replies

Both used tooth extraction.

[SunSeeker]

162. Nope. Just a coincidence. Great minds think alike. nt

[PeaceNikki]

168. ok - another: Abortion is safer than taking an injection of penicillin.

In countries like the US, where abortion is safe and legal, it's a one to two minute procedure, requiring no general anesthetic. The safety of induced abortion is clear and incontrovertible -- abortion is safer than taking an injection of penicillin.

http://www.feminist.org/rrights/abrights_facts.html

[idwiyo]

117. Even in your 'ideal' world with 100% effective BC there will be those who will change their minds

after the fact. Simply because they decided they don't want to. Do you have a problem with that?

Abortion should be legal, safe, and easily accessible. Why, and when is no one's business but the woman involved.

[zeemike]

11. As a man I will never know or understand it.

And I don't pretend to, and think men have no business telling a woman what to do with her body...

But this I do know, that there should be NO purity test for progressives...it has nothing to do with that and only seeks to divide us even further...it is a wedge issue created by the right, and we should not oblige them by using it against progressive women that have different feelings about it.

[el_bryanto]

14. I've expressed my own views on this - but think we should cut people

who don't like the "Abortion should be rare" talk some slack. The truth is that Abortion restrictions are increasing right now; abortions are becoming rare because Republicans and conservatoids are successfully making it hard to keep clinics that perform abortions open. They see this right under attack, and they see us as a nation slowly losing that right. In that climate it's easy enough to see why they get upset at those who are less comfortable with abortion.

Bryant

[seabeyond]

59. this is a well thought out, balanced post el.

i knew it was in you. i have seen it so often in the past.

[el_bryanto]

61. Thank you for the compliment. nt

[LostOne4Ever]

75. Cut them some slack?

Every post I have seen on this issue is them attacking anyone who disagrees. Often treating us as if we are anti-choice zealots and talking to us as if we are anti-choice ourselves.

Yes, abortion rights are under attack. The fucking republicans got the only PP clinic in my part of texas closed down. We should be uniting against the onslaught instead of castigating each other over a difference of opinion. I have no issue with someone who thinks abortion should not be rare.

What I do have a problem with is someone who holds that position talking down creating internal divisions and talking down to other pro-choice advocates over a simple word. This very thread is an attempt to explain the OP's position to DEFEND against the attacks that have been made.

How can you cut someone some slack when they are the ones on the attack?

I get why they feel strongly about it, and I disagree.

[renie408]

84. This /\

Damn skippy abortion rights are under attack. I would imagine Wendy Davis might know a little more about that than even the illustrious members of the DU. But this thing of attacking anyone who does not agree that abortion is simply another medical procedure with no other emotions attached is NOT helping the cause.

[el_bryanto]

87. Because while they might well be the ones on attack at DU

In the larger context they are the ones under attack; or to put it more clearly Abortion Rights in America are under attack. Given that, why keep the fight going. They've said their piece, we've said ours, now let's focus on what we can do individually to help protect abortion rights in America.

Bryant

[PeaceNikki]

88. hyperbole much?

Here- read this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024060281#post52

Is that an "attack"?

[PeaceNikki]

16. Too bad. There is a full-on attack on reproductive rights. It's time to change the narritive.

You do not understand the crisis situation we are in with regards to abortion rights. TRAP laws are the back-door reversal of Roe v Wade. The are restricting access and involving themselves in decisions between women and their doctors. And we need ot stop worrying about hurting feelings or 'not appealing to the moderates' and fucking own it.

It is a moral & positive choice that liberates women, saves lives, & protects families.

[SunSeeker]

17. "It is a moral & positive choice that liberates women, saves lives, & protects families."

Well said. Thank you.

[REP]

25. Very well said.

As always.

[PeaceNikki]

18. NM is voting right now on decisions that doctors and women should make.

right now.

[etherealtruth]

19. Its all about personal choice (to me)

How a woman arrives at that choice and what that choice is, is irrelevant to me. I do not say that to diminish your pain ... I say it to embrace whatever you feel and respect your right to make the best choice for you. I also respect your right to feel whatever you feel associated with that choice

Abortion or the choice to carry a pregnancy is a deeply personal decision ... I trust women to know what is best for them. that is why I am pro-CHOICE

[SunSeeker]

20. There is a BIG difference between saying abortion is "no biggie" and abortion is a positive choice.

I have yet to hear a single progressive, or anyone, say abortion is "no biggie." But abortion is a positive choice when you are too young, too broke or simply not ready for a child. It sounds to me like you are maligning pro-choice progressives.

[PeaceNikki]

21. Compared to carrying to term and delivery, it's definitely "no biggie".

That's a fact, Jack.

[pnwmom]

26. I have a friend who had an abortion and later, three babies.

I was with her when she was going through this and I know she would disagree with you. To her, even compared to having a baby, abortion was a "biggie."

She's a nurse and worked for Planned Parenthood and is a fervent supporter of woman's right to choose. But that doesn't make abortion a trivial thing, at least for many women.

[PeaceNikki]

27. What it is to individual women is a deeply personal decision.

And how they handle it emotionally is not always the same. Nor is it for pregnancy and birthing. Or any damn thing. Many decisions and experiences in life can be deeply emotional for some and a 'breeze' for others. There's no right or wrong in how to feel about it. The wrong thing is to make a person feel like they are SUPPOSED to feel one way or another. And we should always support women and not place judgement or shame on them. Deliberately or by implication.

I could give you stories about friends who have died or nearly died delivering. Or about my aunt who developed gestational diabetes that ended up killing her. Or stories about girls who have committed suicide because they could not face their parents and parental notification laws made access to what they needed impossible.

From a medical perspective, early termination is far far safer than pregnancy and delivery. And, as such, medically "no biggie" by comparision. That's a fact. And your nurse friend can corroborate that.

[pnwmom]

28. You're absolutely right from the medical perspective.

But abortion is more than just a medical procedure, at least to many women. For many women, no matter how sure they are about their decision, no matter how much they know it is the right one, there still are ambivalent feelings and often a sense of loss.

Again, women are all individual in their reactions; there are also some situations and some women for which an abortion would be nothing but a relief.

[PeaceNikki]

30. lol, I added to my reply before i saw yours.

we agree.

[RobinA]

54. For Some Woman

abortion is a biggie compared to carrying to term. It's a little disturbing that you don't get that. Your "no biggie" attitude is actually quite cruel to some women who have had abortions. As a pro-choicer, I hope the movement is not heading in the direction you espouse.

[PeaceNikki]

55. keep reading..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4061500

[pnwmom]

23. You can see that right in this thread, among several others

during the last week or so.

[newcriminal]

24. there you go

see the post right above mine.

[SunSeeker]

34. You are ignoring the rest of the sentence.

"A root canal is no biggie WHEN COMPARED TO CANCER" is not the same as saying "a root canal is no biggie."

"An abortion is no biggie compared to carrying a baby to term" is NOT the same as saying "abortion is no biggie."

[newcriminal]

35. you're ignoring what a lot of these women have been spewing

only relief

[SunSeeker]

41. I think you are misunderstanding their point.

And describing their impassioned demand for liberty for women as "spewing" suggests you don’t want to know what they are trying to say.

[newcriminal]

43. I have read enough to call it spewing

[SunSeeker]

47. You have made your position clear, but not your justification. nt

[PeaceNikki]

44. I love that...

[renie408]

80. No, it's just that some pro choice progressives cannot tolerate any statement

that does not dovetail perfectly with what they have decided is the way to think about things. How on earth could you interpret my post as maligning pro choice?? That is ridiculous. Was it the part where I said I would fight tooth and nail to preserve this right for all women?? Was that what gave you the idea that I am maligning pro choice??

There was a thread yesterday that stated that abortion was just like any other medical procedure; essentially no different from having your tonsils out. I am sure for some women that is true and that's fine. For many others it is a tough emotional choice that leaves a mark for life. That is simply the truth. Does that mean that this choice should not be available?? Obviously not.

[PeaceNikki]

81. huh, now take your first sentence and apply it to yourself. it works!!

[renie408]

83. HOW???

Seriously, the reading comprehension thing has got to be an issue for you.

HOW is my saying that maybe we should tolerate a wide range of emotions on the subject of abortion as long as the people involved all agree that it is a right that needs to be preserved at all costs display my wanting people to think about this exactly as I do?? WHERE do I say other women should feel the same way I do?? WHAT are you even talking about??

What is wrong with you?

[PeaceNikki]

85. What specifically in the Davis thread made you cry? And why?

Frankly, I find that ridiculous.

Was it the insistence that most women do not feel shame or regret? The point that they should not HAVE to feel these emotions? And I think your locked OP and this one really do make you seem intolerant of those opinions.

You need to get your emotions in check and back off with the personal attacks. It's intolerant and shit.

[renie408]

90. Frankly, I find your intolerance a little ironic.

YOU find my emotional reaction ridiculous?? Well, that's all that matters, huh??

Ok, HERE is why I was crying yesterday, since you seem to think I am lying about that or whatever it is you think, you intolerant, ugly minded bitch:

When I was 19 I was in love with a boy. He was my first. We dated for several years and I got pregnant even while taking precautions. We decided to have the baby. I picked out names. We looked at apartments. I started taking the vitamins, reading the books, etc. I found out I was pregnant pretty quickly, probably not more than 4-5 weeks. At that time in our state you had until your 12th week to abort. For six weeks I went around happily pregnant, looking at tiny apartments, looking for jobs to support us. But happily planning my future and wondering what my baby was going to be like. Then the boy came to me one night and said he couldn't do it. He was too young to be a father. He was still in school, still too young. He said that if I wanted to have the child, he would do what he could to support me from afar. At the time, I was in school and working part time at McDonald's. I was earning the grand sum of about $90 a week. I lived with my parents who had already told me that if I EVER got pregnant, I was not to turn to them. The boy left and for a few days I scrambled around trying to figure out how to do this thing on my own. I did not see a way to handle it. I called the boy and he drove me to Planned Parenthood and paid for the abortion.

I was devastated, but at the time, I got over it. Honestly, I don't know WHY reading all this stuff about abortion had me crying yesterday. Maybe it was just reliving the event or something. I do not precisely regret the decision. Maybe it is more that I regret the necessity of the decision? I don't know if it is even that. But what I DO know is that this thing that some of you have of vilifying those of us who think that abortion is a regrettable thing is NOT helping the pro-choice cause.

WHY are you so invested in attacking me? You have sarcastically and aggressively commented on several of my posts. Because I am sad that I had to have an abortion? That really offends you THAT much? Because I think maybe people should slow down in their militant support of the right to choose and think about what they are saying before they speak?? That maybe they need to realize that they are talking to actual people with actual experiences and maybe being a little sensitive wouldn't kill them?

Thank you, though, for so perfectly illustrating the point I was trying to make. It isn't enough to believe in choice. You have to believe the same way YOU do.

[PeaceNikki]

91. you still did not answer the question. What IN THAT THREAD made you cry?

[renie408]

97. And who are you, exactly, that I am supposed to justify my feelings to you?

I said that I was not sure what made me cry. I imagine it was reliving the whole thing that brought on the tears.

But you go on being the way you are. I feel really, REALLY sure that is working well for you in life.

[bettyellen]

116. So it wasn't anyones posts that made you cry- yet you complain about the thread as if it

pained you. Except it was your own emotional baggage. Not everyone has reacted the same sad way, and this pisses you off. Good to know.

[newcriminal]

98. OMG

Answer the question she asked you.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU???

[bettyellen]

113. I read it twice, and could not see what the hell there was to cry about.

I try to respect others' feelings- but that one left me completely puzzled. I think there's a bit of a persecution complex going on.

[PeaceNikki]

115. omg, thank you.

I genuinely wanted to know. The OP has had 3 replies in this thread locked (oddly, NOT the one in which she called me an "intolerant, ugly minded bitch&quot and is flagged for review.

I honestly think she's had a meltdown.

[rug]

119. She's not flagged for review. Do you want her to be?

[PeaceNikki]

122. she was.

[bettyellen]

129. she seems angry that others do not suffer the guilt she has.

and that kind of gets in the way of being rational or even accepting the fact that abortion is a thing greatly wanted in this country, and appreciated by many. It is unfortunate she has regrets, but imagining attacks that aren;t there isn;t going to help.

[PeaceNikki]

131. agreed.

[PeaceNikki]

92. "you intolerant, ugly minded bitch".... wow.

[PeaceNikki]

96. get a grip.

[renie408]

99. Have some empathy. If you are capable of it.

Hint: The words on the computer screen are written by real people with real life experiences.

[PeaceNikki]

100. eeek, locked out of your own thread. bummer.

[SidDithers]

118. Quite the apology thread, eh?...

Sid

[99Forever]

102. Perhaps you should look inward to understand...

... what prompted that statement.

Wow, indeed.

Just sayin'.

[PeaceNikki]

104. your concern is noted.

[99Forever]

105. I really don't get...

... how being snarky, bitter, and angry all the time towards people who are basically your allies, serves your "cause" in a positive way.

My "concern," my militant friend, is genuine. But if your goal is to alienate everyone who won't knuckle under to all of your demands, have a nice long lonely life.

[PeaceNikki]

106. super cute how you only read what you want read.

[99Forever]

108. I read every word of the exchange.

Her assessment of you is exactly spot on.

I'm done wasting my time with your mean spirited drama.

Have a nice life.

[Scout]

156. don't you love how overly sensitive "allies" seem sometimes?

like, they are such an ally, so dedicated to the same cause, that when one person hurts their feelings or disagrees, suddenly they're all bluster and ruffled feathers.

"Harumph!!! Well, if you're going to be pissy about our common cause, fuck you, I'm not going to be your ally anymore, neener neener wah wah wah. You better be be nice to me if you want my help."

[PeaceNikki]

157. Exactly. Worse than 'soft support'. That is 'limp support'.

[bettyellen]

169. it's a weird head game alright! and I do not think I have ever seen a true ally play it.

[Coyotl]

107. Don't be such an "intolerant, ugly minded bitch" and call names.

I'm not reading this OP or even past that quote in this post, but I'm certain that you are being inappropriate by doing the personal attack thingie.

[marlakay]

31. I use to be a pro lifer

Until my daughter had an abortion and I couldn't deal with thnking my daughter was a murderer so I opened my mind and after a long time of changing became a person who believes in choice. And have been that way for over 14 yrs now.

But that said, every person I know including my daughter felt awful after their abortion. Glad the choice was there but felt like shit about it.

When I was in high school a friend asked me to pay for her to have one and I just couldn't do it, she ended up telling her mom and got drunk after. I always felt bad for her.

My daughter still can't speak about it.

We as women have a right to our bodies but it doesn't mean we don't have to live with what we do.

[SunSeeker]

70. Glad you came around. Too bad for your daughter & high school friend you didn't come around sooner.

Your high school friend came to you for support and you rejected her. Sad that she had no one to turn to and was forced to tell her parents, who she obviously wanted to avoid and probably for good reason. Hope she got the abortion she needed.

I can understand why your daughter doesn't want to speak with you about her abortion. You thought she was a murderer when she did it. Maybe if you hadn't laid that sort of guilt on your daughter, she might not have felt so awful about it.

It appears you would still think she was a murderer today if you weren't so concerned about your own feelings, i.e., you couldn't deal with thinking your daughter was a murderer. That must be very hurtful to your daughter.

I hope your daughter had someone who supported her and her decision. She sounds like a very brave woman.

[marlakay]

71. Obviously you didn't read what I said

Even though I didn't believe in choice I supported my daughter and went with her and her boyfriend to the doctors office, I was there for her both before and after, and I didn't put any guilt on her at all.

We didn't talk about it for a long time after because she felt bad about it.

As far as my high school friend, the only money I had was money I had collected and needed to turn in to my job, I couldn't have helped her even if I wanted to. I was very religous back then and pretty brain washed. So I wish I could have helped her.

But your attack on me isn't very nice or correct. I was only stating how I was able to open up my brainwashed mind. I would do anything for my kids, you don't know who I am at all.

This is why I seldom write on this site anymore, it's all taken wrong and attacks.

[SunSeeker]

73. You're right. I don't know you. I just go by what you post.

Your daughter knew you thought abortion was murder as you accompanied her to the clinic. How can you honestly think that did not heap guilt on her?

[marlakay]

111. Whether it did or not

She asked me to go and I went for her not myself whether you believe that or not.

[ancianita]

39. We cry because of the rigged game of spiritual, social and economic inequality we get born to.

In the political arena, progressives are tempted to walk and talk with their counterparts in a restrictive sandbox full of rhetorical "loyalty tests." Progressives just think that the hard push back from a united front is the answer. Progressivism is only one answer and one tool. Many of any political stance mistake "difference" for "deficit." We're still learning to live and let live with difference. Women most often still support each other even when they don't agree with each other. We tend to seek unity that way, not uniformity. Uniformity sickens free will.

We cry because we know that if we were not 'pressed' into surviving this inequality game, we'd have no problems with either more births or more abortions. We cry because we are, at that moment, stuck with a decision that either supports or denies that rigged game, which is built on manipulating our free will. We cry because we stretch and grow by exercising free will.

Still too often, misery is often based on built-in guilt structures of this rigged game, whether the guilt comes from patriarchalists, progressives, religion, whatever... Afterward, we have to work to transcend the structures that still label us or press us away from our free wills. Consciousness is hard and heartbreaking work. As we restructure society and belief systems that will respect everyone's bodies and free will, we will all be more at peace.

Until then, those who would destroy our free wills will try to overpower and dominate us by any means necessary. Until then, discourse and vigilance, not judgment, are the means for pushing forward.

[get the red out]

159. Amazing post

Thank you

[villager]

51. Have been through two abortions (on the male side of the equation), and neither was easy

.. on me, or on first girlfriend (the first one) or ex-wife (the second one).

Yeah, I have two beautiful boys, but you can't help but wonder about the pregnancies you decided to end, as well.

I agree absolutely in the right to choose. But I don't grok at all these flippant/superior threads claiming it's no bigger deal than tending to a hangnail....

[HockeyMom]

53. They were not meant to be born, yet

I suppose I have a completely different take on this; certainly not the common Judeo/Christian teaching. While I never had an abortion, I did have an ectopic. Minus one fallopian tube, my daughter was born almost to the day 2 years later. If that one had lived, my younger daughter would never have been conceived, let alone born. We decided that after our 2nd child, permanent birth control was the course of action. I felt back then, and still do, that babies (souls if you wish) that are aborted, or miscarried, were not meant to be born either at that particular time, or to that particular couple. When the timing is right, they will be born. There was a reason that my younger daughter was born and grew to adulthood; and the other never made it. The reason is not for me to know. I have never grieved at all or wondered what would have been. It just might already BE somewhere, for all I know.

Sorry, if this sounds religious. I am not a religous person at all and don't mean it to be. Just an alternative opinion.

[seabeyond]

57. i hear what you are saying, and in a spiritual sense, i can take it a step beyond.

i do not know that du is the place for this kind of a conversation. but, i do like how you see it.

[Puzzledtraveller]

56. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience.

Genuine and honest and very welcome.

[ismnotwasm]

58. Apologize for flame bait and then post another one?

Nice.

[Demo_Chris]

65. I support you on both your choice AND any threads you want to make. nt

[YoungDemCA]

66. If anything, we should have more "purity tests"

Leave pragmatism to the politicians. Progressive activists at the grassroots level shouldn't be willing to compromise on certain issues.

The members of the Republican Party have managed to win many elections in no small part because they are perceived by many voters to have stood firm on their convictions. This applies mostly to campaigning; governance is a different thing altogether.

Pragmatism works for governance, but in the world of campaign politics, the hard truth is that whoever has the most persuasive sales pitch wins.

[PeaceNikki]

79. Exactly. We need to own it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

114. If anything... we should could keep our opinions/ideas/judgments out of

other women's decisions for themselves, no matter what our opinions are.

End of story.

[Egalitarian Thug]

72. Still whining about this?

Connotation

noun
1. a. the associated or secondary meaning of a word or expression in addition to its explicit or primary meaning: A possible connotation of “home” is “a place of warmth, comfort, and affection.”
b. the suggesting of additional meanings by a word or expression, apart from its literal meaning; the act of connoting.
Compare denotation ( def 1 ) .

2. something suggested or implied by a word or thing, rather than being explicitly named or described: “Religion” has always had a negative connotation for me.

3. Logic. the set of attributes constituting the meaning of a term and thus determining the range of objects to which that term may be applied; comprehension; intension.

The issue is the implication, not a word or your feelings.

[Starry Messenger]

86. I'm not ashamed of my decision either.

But it is extremely disturbing to come to DU and see OPs clucking at me that I should have used adoption instead. Or that I'm a murderer. Some DU posters have a history of getting away with conservative positions by claiming they are technically "for" the liberal position, but then spewing all the anti talking points that get used to support conservative policies (not you, but others have.)

Objecting to that isn't a purity test.

[renie408]

93. I am sorry that anyone has said anything like that to you, especially here.

That is awful.

[PeaceNikki]

95. But it's ok for YOU to call me an ""intolerant, ugly minded bitch"? You're off the rails.

[Sheldon Cooper]

101. I was going to alert on the comment that she directed at you,

but since she's already locked out of the thread I'm going to leave it alone. Once women start calling other women bitches, I'm done with them.

[PeaceNikki]

103. And she's flagged for review. eek

[rug]

120. No she's not. Try harder.

eek

[PeaceNikki]

121. She was.

You can ask her.

[rug]

123. Well, now it's been corrected.

[PeaceNikki]

124. lol, she's had 3 replies in this thread hidden and an OP locked yesterday.

Seems like she could use a break.

[rug]

125. And only one before this thread.

[PeaceNikki]

127. OOOh, buy her a cookie!!

[rug]

138. Why don't you just keep alerting? Something is bound to stick.

If silencing her in this thread is insufficient for you, you can keep trying to kick her off the site.

After all, she does disagree with you.

So do I. Go on, try an alert.

[PeaceNikki]

140. lol. I only alerted on one. And one does not get 3 hides in one thread for mere "disagreement".

It happens when they can't discuss a topic without personal attacks.

[rug]

141. No, it usually happens when someone is persistently attacked in a thread where she shares painful

thoughts.

[PeaceNikki]

143. as if.

[rug]

146. A stunning rebuttal.

[PeaceNikki]

147. thanks!

[rug]

148. as if

[Sheldon Cooper]

139. She was flagged for review.

Try harder to keep up.

[rug]

142. She's no longer.

Try harder to keep up.

[Sheldon Cooper]

150. You were perfectly willing to talk out of your ass before

you knew the full story, and yet you accuse others of not keeping up. When one pays attention, one knows these things. You were not paying attention.

[rug]

151. You used the wrong preposition.

[Sheldon Cooper]

152. Ho hum.

I prefer to talk to adults, so I won't be wasting any more time here. I'll let you have the last word. Please proceed...

[PeaceNikki]

153. Yeah, I am done with that one, too.

Thanks for your input, as always, though!

[rug]

154. Somehow I doubt that. Adults tend to discuss rather than swarm.

School's out now.

[Starry Messenger]

145. I'm fairly sure you were in those threads about adoption being better than abortion.

You've said awful things to people in this thread. Stating that some women have not agonized over abortion is not grounds for you or anyone else to attack them.

[PeaceNikki]

149. She can't answer. She's locked out of this thread with THREE hides in it (should be more) for saying

awful things to people.

WEIRD!!

[Starry Messenger]

155. Ah. I'm typing from my phone so didn't see the whole thread.

Very strange.

[CTyankee]

109. Renie, your post illustrates what I have been saying here for a long time and that is

that women are moral agents and thus can make these decisions themselves. For some women it is easier than for others. Each woman makes a moral choice in their lives when they choose to either give birth or abort. We should not disparage a woman's feelings about that choice, whether or not she feels (in your terminology) abortion is a "biggie." Medically, first trimester abortion when legal and safe is not a "biggie." That is, it is safer for a woman than pregnancy and childbirth. That's medical science, not some ideological dogma.

I hope you fully understand that back in the day, women who were forced to give birth and then had to give up their newborn for adoption didn't just walk away unscathed emotionally. I personally knew a social worker who counseled women in their 40s and 50s who had done that and grieved their loss on the baby's birthday each year. It was an unbelievably cruel thing for the law to do to women.

I would also remind you and others here that there have been studies that report that "relief" is the most commonly felt emotion among women who have abortions. It does not mean that women don't have different feelings about abortion as a personal matter. Anti-choice laws often assume women don't "understand" what they are doing and need a law prohibiting them from being "bad." These laws actually prevent women from making a moral choice and thus, assume that women are not fully moral human beings.

[Scout]

144. + a gazillion n/t

[get the red out]

158. I think people react to the Theocrats

I think even on DU, it is easy to react to the theocratic position we have to fight so hard against, and the views they try to paint onto and force onto all women. The theocrats want to say all women will regret an abortion forever and grieve throughout life, and we all get so used to fighting them tooth and nail for painting this onto women in an effort to end all reproductive rights, that we are conditioned to go to war on the subject.

Just my take. Everyone is different in their perspective. If we are all on the same page of not demonizing any woman (even by unthinkingly using right wing verbiage) who makes a choice to have an abortion, no matter how she feels about it, and fighting for a right to choose, that is most important.

[gollygee]

163. People will have different feelings about having an abortion

But that shouldn't be relevant when talking about the law. People have a variety of feelings after lots of decisions in their lives. But we can't keep knocking abortion like it's this horrible thing we barely can tolerate while our rights are being chipped away. Abortion has helped millions of women regain control of their lives.

Presenting abortion as "It's awful but it should be legal anyway" isn't a great strategy. It isn't awful - many women feel great relief after having an abortion. And of course some women have a hard time, but some women have a hard time with pregnancy and birth too. And some of the hard time women have is because we've created this aura of guilt and shame around abortion, not because of the abortion itself.

I'm very tired of hearing people talk about abortion being a horrible thing but ok well I guess having it be legal is something that has to be even though it's so awful and terrible. I'm not going to sit back and read that here. That attitude feeds the anti-choice movement, and we need to stop feeding that movement.

[newcriminal]

165. You can't stop people from posting their opinions on here

"I'm very tired of hearing people talk about abortion being a horrible thing but ok well I guess having it be legal is something that has to be even though it's so awful and terrible. I'm not going to sit back and read that here. That attitude feeds the anti-choice movement, and we need to stop feeding that movement."

You will as long as I'm around.

[gollygee]

166. I should have continued my thought

I'm not going to sit back and read it without commenting.

[bettyellen]

170. THANK YOU!! "And some of the hard time women have is because we've created this aura of guilt...

and shame around abortion, not because of the abortion itself."

BINGO! And the OP is deliberately doing this. Not progressive at all.