the worst is true: MA teacher raped before being murdered by 14 year old student

[cali]

A 14-year-old boy last month allegedly raped Danvers High School teacher Colleen Ritzer inside a second-floor bathroom of the school before murdering her and dumping her body in a nearby wooded area, prosecutors said today.

Philip D. Chism was indicted by an Essex County grand jury today on charges of first-degree murder, aggravated rape and armed robbery, according to Essex District Attorney Jonathan Blodgett’s office. Chism allegedly attacked Ritzer when she stayed after school to talk with him about an upcoming exam, according to prosecutors and students who were in the building that day.

“The indictments returned today detail horrific and unspeakable acts,” Blodgett said in a statement. “This is the first step in a long process to secure justice for Ms. Ritzer and her family.”

Chism is facing the murder charge as an adult. He was indicted as a youthful offender on the rape and armed robbery charges. The latter charges will initially be handled in Salem Juvenile Court, but prosecutors said they “would move to join these indictments with the murder indictment in Superior Court.”

<snip>

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2013/11/21/philip-chism-accused-raping-murdering-danvers-high-teacher-colleen-ritzer/jGdMVl1PumhF39uZ7lrbIN/story.html

[BainsBane]

1. It's a horrific crime, but 14 is not an adult

He should not be tried as an adult.

[cali]

2. I agree. I do thing though that there should be some mechanism that ensures that he is not

released at 21.

[BainsBane]

3. Yeah, I'm not sure what options exist in the juvenile justice system

but this phenomenon of trying young adolescents as adults is wrong. Their brains are not developed and they lack the same capacity as adults to make reasoned decisions about behavior. That in no way excuses what this boy did, if he is in fact guilty, but I treating children as adults reflects poorly on American society--as frankly does most of our penal system.

I wonder how European countries deal with this sort of thing?

[enlightenment]

5. You might find this interesting.

http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/factsheet-youthoffending.pdf

This is a fact sheet on youth offenders in the UK

[GaYellowDawg]

6. Sorry, but...

14 is more than old enough to know not to rape and murder. I don't give a shit how young he is, he deserves the maximum penalty that can be given for that crime.

[smirkymonkey]

11. I agree. He knew what he was doing.

I have no sympathy for him.

[eqfan592]

35. The frontal lobe of the brain hasn't come close to fully developing yet at that stage.

Your argument is a common one from people more interested in absolute punishment and retribution than in rehabilitation, and is a primary reason why are justice system is completely fucked in every which way.

[FBaggins]

108. I admit it.

I have no interest in "rehabilitating" a 14-yr old who rapes and murders a teacher like that.

[eqfan592]

114. Then thank you for being part of the problem, and one of the reasons why...

...our justice system is completely broken.

[FBaggins]

171. Sorry... you've confused your terms

A system that allows him an automatic release just a few years later (possibly without even having to register as a sex offender ) could not be called a "justice" system.

I'll let you explain to the family of the woman he rapes/murders a few short years from now why we're all better off in a society that lets him out so quickly.

[eqfan592]

172. Arguments from emotion are not a solid basis for any justice system.

And a justice system that falls to distinguish between adults and children, or that does but yet chooses to ignore it whenever it is inclined to do so, is no justice system at all.

[4Q2u2]

235. Justice System for Whom?

Is not the Justice system set up to speak for the Victim, who's voice cannot be heard? You seem to be advocating for an age distinction for the defendants when the advocation of the Justice System should be directed for the rights of the Victim.
If he is tried as an adult there are avenues build into the system for his legal team to still argue diminished capacities.
If he is convicted there are other avenues built into the system in the sentencing phase to mitigate penalties.
If he is incarcerated there is schooling, training, and rehabilitation programs he can opt for to change his life, as well as reviews for parole that can and do change sentencing penalties. All these things are afforded him, so to say the system is not advocating for him is not completely accurate.
The justice system is the people's advocate (and hopefully the victims) and his legal team is his advocate.
You speak of emotions not making decisions for justice. It seems that you purely looked at his age and decided that he is some poor 168 month old baby.

[get the red out]

65. Agree

I am tired of these young monsters.

[whathehell]

206. I agree. He needs to be tried as an adult. n/t

[RKP5637]

111. I remember that age for me, I certainly had no impulses such as that, neither did

my friends or really anyone I heard about. I just can't give a free pass based on age for horrific crimes such as this. I agree with you!

[newcriminal]

120. I contemplated killing my father at that age.

I wasn't anything close to being an adult.

[JI7]

156. you didn't know killing someone was wrong at that age ?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

184. He must have because something prompted him to not go through with it.

I think he only proves our point.

[newcriminal]

192. She, I didn't know how to load a revolver.

This was before the internet.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

195. My apologies. The gender thing happens to me a lot as well.

Still, if you wanted him dead bad enough you would have found the means to act.

[newcriminal]

209. No, because my 14 year old brain jumped to something else after I couldn't get that gun open.

[MADem]

242. His fourteen year old brain premeditated this crime.

He brought the boxcutter. He brought the baklava and multiple changes of clothing. He followed her from her classroom to the bathroom. He punched her in the face, slashed her throat, and raped her in an "aggravated" fashion--the details are apparently so horrific that we're not yet getting many of them. He staged the body after he dumped it in the woods. He transported the body concealed in a recycling bin while masked. He stole her underwear along with the credit cards and iPhone. He left a note saying "I hate you ALL." He then went out to dinner and a movie.

He had all the time in the world to jump his 14 year old brain towards a different decision, but he didn't that.

He's a danger to the community. I really don't care if they put him in a secure hospital facility or a prison, but he doesn't need to be killing more people in the Bay State or anywhere else. I don't think this was a "one off." This kid isn't right in the head, and I don't know if that kind of broke can ever be fixed. I sure wouldn't want him living next door to me.

[newcriminal]

243. I wouldn't want a cop living next door to me either,

hell I'm not thrilled with republicans living next to me doesn't mean they should all be put away.

This is a kid not an adult and should not be prosecuted as one.

[Ranchemp.]

245. I have to disagree.

This was a serial killer in the making, the planning, the posing of the body in a sexual position, the taking of personal items, the slashing of the throat, these are all hallmarks of a serial killer and serial killers are never rehabilitated.

It's entirely appropriate to charge this 14yo as an adult for the heinous nature of the crime and, if convicted, it's entirely appropriate to sentence him to life in prison to protect the general population from him.

[newcriminal]

248. We will have to agree to disagree

I will never agree that a child should be charged as an adult. Never.

[Ranchemp.]

250. Fair enough.

I don't agree that most children should be charged as adults, but some crimes, such as this one, being such a heinous crime, are the exception.

[DragonBorn]

255. Dont children who get charged as juvenile automatically get out at 18 - 22?

You would support this monster being released from prison in 3 - 8 years? I wouldn't because I could bet money this monster would kill again.

Dont get this twisted as some youthful rebellion. This kid premeditated a rape and murder, displayed a great amount of forethought bringing in a weapon, a change of clothes, and a mask. He had a plan to get the body out of the school and hide it. Kid knew what he was doing and thought he could get away with it. Lock him up for a long, long time.

Also I found this on while searching for the maximum penalty for a juvenile:

"Most jurisdictions now try juveniles as adults with serious or violent felony charges (which a premeditated murder is considered). The factors the prosecutor primarily considers when determining whether to try a minor as an adult or juvenile are: gravity of the offense; age of the offender. Given the seriousness of the offense and the minor's age"

[newcriminal]

256. Calling him a monster make you feel better?

He is a child.

"Kid knew what he was doing and thought he could get away with it."

This kid obviously wasn't thinking. He used her credit card at Wendy's and the movie theater. I don't think that sounds like someone who was thinking about being caught or the consequences of his actions.

[DragonBorn]

258. I'll never understand

why some people care so much about the criminals that kill innocents. I support a fair legal justice system where offenders are given their rights and treated humanly but I also support harsh penalties for such egregious crimes.

Does my calling him a monster offend you that much? How much does murder and rape offend you?

Kid probably thought Wendy's and the movie theater didn't have cameras that could track it back to him. He brought a mask, a knife, and a change of clothes to the crime. How does that not scream premeditation and the intent to conceal his crime. Just because this kid is a dumbass and made two mistakes that helped him get caught does not mean he wasn't thinking about the consequences of his actions. He knew what they would be which is why he tried to conceal his actions and the body.

He is a monster and deserves to be locked up for a long time.

EDIT:
You seemed to avoid my question on him getting released in 3 - 8 years. Do you think that is a appropriate punishment for rape and murder? Do you think it should be longer or shorter? Why?

[newcriminal]

260. He is a minor, so yes that is an appropriate sentence.

When he ages out of juvenile detention, he can be evaluated by doctors and either be committed to a psychiatric hospital or be released.

[idwiyo]

308. +1 This entire thread is an eye opener for me. I actually thought that only conservative mindset,

like the one displayed by Republican Right Wing, is capable of believing that minors at 14 are mature enough to appreciate long term consequences of their actions.

Very sad indeed.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

346. If I had my way

I smack his naughty little bum and send him home with you to love and care for. You seem to understand what scalawags little children can be at times and have a great tolerance for their high jinks.

Really though, you are the problem not the solution, and if I really had my way this fucker would be never see the light of day.

[rug]

347. Your post is an abject reminder of why justice is dispensed in a court of law and not by

slack-jawed mobs pecking at keyboards.

[smirkymonkey]

349. Give me a break,

This was not a child. It was a heartless predator. He deserves to die.

[newcriminal]

357. He's a fourteen year old and you say he deserves to die.

There is no reason to even try to debate with ignorance like yours. This is the first time I have ever debated using the ignore function. You are just as sick as this kid.

[smirkymonkey]

275. +1000

The kid is a sociopath. He will never change. He should be tried as an adult.

[smirkymonkey]

276. +1000

[MADem]

246. You don't get to decide. Massachusetts law says that premeditated, felony murderers ARE tried as

adults.

If cops or Republicans committed crimes like this kid did--punching a teacher in the face, slashing her throat, raping her brutally with "an object" in horrific fashion, and then dumping/staging the body--I'd want them locked up, too--so I really don't take your point.

This individual's case is not going to change that law. In fact, he's a poster child for "That law makes sense."

[newcriminal]

251. You are right I don't get to decide, doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

You can repeat over and over the awful things that were done to that poor teacher, it doesn't change my mind. This is a child not an adult.

[MADem]

253. This is a premeditated murderer whose crime was especially heinous.

Age is not a barrier to brutal, criminal ideation, planned out and executed in meticulous fashion.

This is not the crime of an impulsive child. This crime was a result of planning, organization, and forethought, from the first punch in the face to the perverse staging of the body.

It doesn't really matter what anyone save the district attorney in MA thinks. They need to throw the (adult) book at that kid and ensure that he doesn't do this sort of thing to anyone else. Ever again.

I don't really care if he's locked in a jail, or in a prison mental hospital, so long as he's locked up and can't murder anyone else like that.

[arely staircase]

342. yeah because having a republican a cop or a rapist-murderer living next door are all equally

undesirable?

wtf?

[newcriminal]

191. yes, I did, but at that age kids don't think clearly.

[Ranchemp.]

249. Oh, you're wrong about this 14yo.

He was thinking very clearly, he carefully planned this, he brought the box cutter, xtra clothing, he slashed her throat, he raped her with a foreign object, he put the body in a cart and wheeled it to the woods, he staged her body in a sexual pose, he stole personal items of hers, he went home and changed clothes again, he stopped at a Wendy's and bought food with her stolen credit card and then he went to the movies, again, on her stolen credit card.

If ever a juvenile needed to be charged as an adult, this one fits the bill to a tee. This 14yo is a serial killer in the making and I'm glad the police captured him before he really got going.

[whathehell]

207. Me either...I just don't get where all this conscienceless young hate is coming from. n/t

[RKP5637]

213. I often wonder if it's an imitation of the hatred they are surrounded by today, violence in

video games, movies, tv, the internet, dysfunctional politics and all the rest of it ... to me, the separation between reality and fantasy are blurred today.

When I was a kid, fantasy was that, fantasy ... but today, the stuff that used to be fantasy is now reality. It just seems in the US of today we often promote hatefulness and violence.

Anyway, that's my take on it all.

[RKP5637]

327. Yep, I don't buy into it that he's too young to know what he was doing/did. If, that were the case,

it seems we would have millions of 14 year olds doing similar, we don't. He should be tried as an adult and receive the consequences for his actions.

[CTyankee]

9. I am beginning to wonder if European countries have this sort of thing in a very big way?

I go to Europe every year and I take a lot more care of my wallet than I do of my person (in the sense of personal violence against me). I don't hear much about rape in those countries, but I don't discount the fact that rape exists everywhere. But why are the crime stats so much higher for the U.S?

This is nuts. It shouldn't be....

[marshall]

127. The brain continues to develop until around age 25

So even a cut off of 18 or 21 isn't fair if that is the criteria.

[snooper2]

128. question, do you believe some people are just evil?

Billions of humans on the planet...


The movie called The Bad Seed was based in reality FYI

[BainsBane]

131. I remember that movie

That was chilling. I think some people are twisted, perhaps evil. This boy may even be one of them. That doesn't change the fact that how the justice system treats children/adolescents is both wrong and ineffective.

[tularetom]

13. There is one mechanism that ensures exactly that

It is known as the death penalty.

I generally oppose it because of the unfortunate tendency of prosecutors and jurors to convict and sentence innocent people.

In this case I'm not so sure..

[KamaAina]

14. Mass. doesn't have it

It's civilized.

[Fla_Democrat]

18. Someone forgot to tell Philip D. Chism that.

Rape, murder and dumping the body seems quite removed from being civilized.

[KamaAina]

21. The Commonwealth as a whole is civilized.

Philip D. Chism is not. Neither is Whitey Bulger, for that matter.

[Tanuki]

36. Chism had only moved to MA last summer

His dad was in the military, although the parents are now separated, and he had moved several times throughout his childhood. The most recent prior locations were in TN and FL.

[BainsBane]

69. The Supreme Court has said executing children is illegal

and unconstitutional as cruel and unusual punishment. Even in MA had the death penalty, this boy would not be eligible.

[TroglodyteScholar]

4. F'real.

I mean, imagine if everyone had to face the music for all the rape+murders they committed at age 14. The courts would be positively jammed up!

[seveneyes]

8. As long as he is locked away from society for the rest of his life

Run him through the judicial system as appropriate. It's a shame he destroyed his promising life by the act of destroying many other lives.

[newcriminal]

12. I agree, he's a child not an adult.

[Beacool]

88. Three "kids" killed a man in my town playing the knock-out game.

They knew exactly what they were doing. The two 14 year olds will be tried as adults. The 13 year old will be tried as a minor.

[newcriminal]

96. That makes no sense at all.

All three are minors and should be treated as such.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

28. For other crimes, yeah, I agree.

This, though, just seems so barbaric and insane, that I have a hard time why he can't be held responsible as an adult.

Of course, I don't have all the facts of the case, or whether he has some sort of mental illness. I am basing my opinion on my initial gut reaction to the story.

[eqfan592]

37. You have a hard time seeing why he can't be held responsible as an adult?

Try this on for size: HE'S A FUCKING CHILD!

Seriously, any suggestion that a 14 year old deserves the same treatment as an adult is completely fucked. Yes, this is a horrible crime, I know, but if we want to at least pretend we are a civilized society, then we sure as shit shouldn't go around trying to act as if 14 year old children have the same level of brain development as a full grown adult.

[PCIntern]

55. That would be amusing if this weren't so horrible...

Assuming he is found guilty, this is a transcendental crime. It is not shoplifting. It is not punching a kid and stealing his bike. Those are the crimes of children.

[eqfan592]

60. You still seem to be under the delusion that the type of crime somehow indicates a level of...

...mental maturity. It does not.

[bettyellen]

82. no, it's that this exact type of crime makes it too risky to bet on rehabilitation.

No fucking way do I want him to be my 21 year old next door neighbor. ask your sister or mom how they;d like that.

[RKP5637]

112. Agree!!! n/t

[morningfog]

130. I applaud you for putting up the good fight here.

I don't understand why others can't understand the role of adolescent brain development.

I don't even support life in prison for kids his age, regardless of the crime. He is going to be a completely different person in 15-20 years. Though we have no way of knowing, statistics suggest he will mature and never re-offend. Crimes like this by people his age after spending 10 years in prison are among the lowest risk to re-offend. They are especially low risk to violently re-offend.

[eqfan592]

142. I appreciate it.

I honestly find the attitude some have here to be completely appalling.

[Chan790]

163. It's mutual. n/t

[eqfan592]

165. I take that as a complement. nt

[GaYellowDawg]

351. You shouldn't.

Allowing "under 18" to be a free pass for any crime, no matter how bad, marks you as a complete fool.

[woodsprite]

149. My nephew was a completely different person over the course of those years.

Rather than talking other kids into "playing" and telling counselor s it was "mutual", he moved on to using force, except that as he got older, his target victims got younger. All the time, his mental health team was working to rehab him. It didn't work. He finally ended up in jail for rape and sexual molestation of his 2 nieces and a nephew -- 8, 6 and 3. He's out now. He did not get the death penalty or life in prison, although he could have. Instead, the Ohio judge let him serve his time for his 9 counts concurrently. All 3 kids have been assigned to foster care because their mother (his sister) and their mother refused to keep him away from the kids. BTW, all 3 kids have to undergo AIDs testing quarterly since he was diagnosed in jail. Something they have been told they will have to do the rest of their lives.

There is no way I ever want him around my kids, or anyone else's -- EVER!!!

[eqfan592]

164. I'm sorry for your situation, however anecdotes do not equate to...

...statistical or scientific evidence.

[magical thyme]

309. you have yet to provide one iota of scientific evidence backing your claims

(or statistical evidence for that matter), never mind a link to sources.

Sorry to inform you of this, but your word does not equal scientific or statistical evidence.

It seems you are trying to claim the moral high ground based on science that you repeatedly claim the rest of us are ignorant of, without providing any supporting data.

Sorry, but that's not going to fly with me or apparently a host of other people around here.

I'll take people's anecdotes plus my personal experience of having been 14 and having known many 14 year olds in my life over empty claims any day of the week.

Personally, I have yet to meet a 14 year old who did not understand that death is permanent, that murder is wrong, and that the consequences of murdering somebody else is that you're going to jail for life. I remember being 14; I never considered rape or murder to be anything other than morally wrong, not to mention rapists and murderers as being anything other than a danger to society.

Furthermore, I was against the death penalty at that age, and believed totally in rehabilitation and passive resistance against violence. To the point where at age 14, I allowed a larger child to punch me while I passively sat chanting mantras until he got bored and walked away. As an adult, I believe I should not be required to tolerate beatings, or worse, by disaffected, angry others. I have a right to not be beaten or worse, and those who knowingly and deliberately violate my right should lose theirs.

Furthermore, I have a young neighbor who's brain development is permanently stuck at around 7-8 years old according to her mother. I'll wager *she* understands that death is permanent and that murder is wrong and that the consequences of murder are jail for life. Same with the developmentally disabled bagger at the local supermarket.

This child will be tried as an adult because the nature of the crime was such that any 14 year old would knew it was wrong.

It is not likely that he will be found not guilty due to insanity because the manner in which he conducted the crime -- bringing a change of clothes and hiding the body -- suggests that he was trying to avoid being caught so he understood he was doing wrong.

The fact that he was caught due to stupid mistakes does not in any way exonerate him. Prisons are full of adult murderers who were caught due to stupid mistakes.

The fact that he was "only" 14 does not exonerate him from the consequences of rape and murder. Rapists and murderers are a danger to society.

[magical thyme]

310. juvenile recidivism

"Although the recidivism rates for OCFS youth are higher than desired, they are comparable to, and in some cases, lower than the reoffense rates reported for juvenile offenders committed to residential facilities in other large states."
http://www.ocfs.state.ny.us/main/detention_reform/Recidivism%20fact%20sheet.pdf

2011 Juvenile Recidivism Rate: 36.7%
Nearly 82% of juveniles who recidivated were returned to IDOC for
the commission of a new crime, compared to 18% of returns which
were for a technical violation of post-release supervision.
 Juvenile offenders whose offense severity level was classified as
‘Serious’ were most likely to return to incarceration.
http://www.in.gov/idoc/files/2011JuvRecidivismRpt.pdf


"The traditional orientation of the judicial system toward adolescent offenders was to emphasize rehabilitation over punishment, with the belief that juveniles were capable of reform through treatment (Trivits & Repucci, 2002)."

"In general, research has indicated that JSO sexual recidivism rates fall between 2-14% (as cited in Rubinstein, Yeager, Goodstein, & Lewis, 1993 and Sipe et al., 1998). For example, in a 1999 synthesis of sexual offender treatment research, Alexander reported an overall sexual recidivism rate (based on re-arrest) of 7.1% for the sub-sample of treated JSOs (n = 1025)."
http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/available/etd-06172005-130331/unrestricted/Reitzel_L_dissertation_text.pdf

[Decaffeinated]

178. Who cares if he is going to be a "different person"

Charlie Manson is a different person than when he went in. Doesn't mean he should ever see the light of day. His life is now forfeit for the one he took...

A kid who is 17 years and 364 days old is effectively the same as someone who is 18 and would get charged as an adult.

The standard needs to be, and is in some cases, based on whether the person could understand what they did was wrong. A 14 year old is absolutely 100% capable of understanding that rape, murder and body dumping are all wrong.

[morningfog]

179. I disagree with your standard.

We know that the brain is not fully developed at 14. It is not as simple as "understanding".

[Decaffeinated]

180. What else is required then?

Is it really too much to ask to have a 14 year old keep an impulse to murder and rape in check?

[morningfog]

183. I'm not saying he shouldn't be charged and sentenced.

He should be, obviously. But, not as an adult and not sentenced to life.

No one under 18 should be charged and tried as an adult for any crime. Sentences and treatments can be structured to facilitate rehabilitation while ensuring that someone who is dangerous is not released to re-offend. Studies show that a young person who commits a sudden act of violence are among the least likely to re-offend and the least likely to re-offend violently after some time to mature, engage in therapy, identify the issue to be treated, etc.

Most offenders suffer mental illnesses ad/or substance abuse, and most of those individuals receive their first diagnosis of the mental illness after conviction and incarceration.

[mythology]

291. The brain isn't fully developed at age 18 either.

And if you use a hard cut at the 18th birthday because that is the date somebody is considered an adult, then you're effectively saying that one day earlier they were less capable.

I'm glad the kid (like everybody else in Massachusetts) isn't going to face the death penalty. But I'm equally glad he will be tried as an adult. This wasn't a kid who accidentally killed somebody, or killed somebody in a fight. The available evidence suggests that the kid knew exactly what he was doing. He made a choice, now he needs to pay for it.

[PCIntern]

152. Please do not lecture me in the subject

Of human development. Your pedantic tone, which is supposed to imply competence, carries no weight here. I am a clinician with nearly forty years of experience and your opinion is entirely specious and irrelevant given the horror of the deed.

[eqfan592]

217. Forty years of experience and you fail to understand basic human brain development.

That's a terrifying thought.

[ieoeja]

225. Amazing, ain't it?

As another poster said, thanks for putting up the good fight. I have given up on the bloodthirsty ghouls. When it comes to threads like these a lot of DUers sound more like Freepers.

[eqfan592]

231. I think today was the first time somebody tried to call my point into question..

...because I dared to use statistics as part of a public policy argument. Well, first time here, anyway. I'm just baffled, but it is what it is. I'm done as well.

[ieoeja]

254. Facts should never be part of the equation.

You should know how much we Liberals hate intellectuals.

[Drahthaardogs]

296. Psych research is almost never double blinded

As a scientist myself I take most psych stats with a giant grain of salt

[magical thyme]

298. we are all lectured that we "don't understand brain development"

but the lecturer provides no evidence that he/she has any understanding of brain development either. Nor does the lecturer back up claims that the vast majority of child killers don't kill again with either numbers or the types of killings.

Waste of time to read that one. Just empty claims; no facts. The rest of us at least are looking at the facts:

That a 14 year old, who is old enough to understand that real-life killing is not a video game and does have real life consequences, deliberately chose to arm himself with a box cutter, deliberate chose to bring a ski mask to hide his face and gloves to hide his fingerprints, and deliberately chose to bring extra clothes to change into after the one's he was wearing got bloody --into school with the intent to kill.

That the 14 year followed through with his plan, raped the teacher who was trying to help him, slashed her throat, changed his clothes, got rid of his bloody clothes, hid her body in a recycle bin, dragged it into the woods, raped her corpse with a branch, and buried it under leaves. Stole her credit card and underpants. Left a note stating "I hate you all" folded by her body.

Returned to the recycle bin. Went out for a hamburger. And then went out to the movies.

This was not lack of impulse or lack of control. This was not an undeveloped brain of somebody who didn't understand the consequences of his actions.

He was found not because he used the credit card, but because like most people out there, he didn't realize that you have to remove the battery from your cell phone if you don't want to be found by pinging.

Those are the facts. This was a premeditated, brutal and deviant rape and murder. Not an impulse from a moment of rage. He hates everybody. He chose to kill a beautiful young teacher who was beloved by all who knew her, thereby inflicting as much pain as possible on as many of the people he hates as possible.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

70. I based my post on emotion ...

... as did you.

So, we'll just leave it at that.

[Union Scribe]

159. When you were 14

was there any doubt in your mind as to raping and murdering people being wrong? Was that something you had to be older to understand was a no-no?

[eqfan592]

162. You should spend some time studying human brain development.

Especially in regards to the frontal lobe. Then you'd understand just how pointless that question is, in spite of its regular usage as justification for treating children as adults.

[Union Scribe]

169. It is a logical question you don't want to answer.

And you don't want to answer it because you know that full brain development is not necessary to know the fundamental wrongness of rape and murder, which most of us who aren't rapists or murderers had a pretty solid grasp of at 14.

[eqfan592]

173. It's a far more complex issue than that.

You really should take the time to study what is going on in the adolescent brain, especially in the frontal lobe. There is a reason we make a legal distinction between adults and children, and it isn't for shits and giggles.

Your question is a massive oversimplification of the issue. If it weren't, there'd be little need for the legal distinction.

[MADem]

282. No, it isn't more complex than that. 14 year olds know right from wrong.

This kid wasn't being beaten or abused by the teacher; she was, in fact, concerned and wanted to help him. He wasn't responding to danger, he stalked the teacher into the bathroom, punched her and slashed her throat.

A child killing because of a perceived immediate threat is a very different thing from a child who meticulously plans a rape and murder, down to bringing the baklava, gloves, and weapon to school in his backpack, along with a change of clothes because things are gonna get bloody.

[eqfan592]

174. Ya know what, let's look at this from another angle.

Let's say somebody were to take an adult male and, against their will, inject them with drugs that severely impaired the operation of the judgment and reasoning portions of the brain, as well as the brains ability to do risk assessment. Then they injected this person with a heavy dose of testosterone and set him lose.

Under those circumstances, do you believe the justice system should take into account all those factors in the event that person committed a crime while under the influence of all of the above?

[Union Scribe]

177. More deflections without addressing the main point.

You can pretend all you want that 14 yr-olds don't understand not to rape and kill, but it really is that simple: a non-mentally ill teen knows enough not to do that, and puberty and testosterone don't force people to rape, much less kill, others. Your "let's say" scenario makes it sound like it's a miracle for any young man to emerge from adolescence without committing violent sexual atrocities against others. It's ridiculous on its face.

[eqfan592]

215. And you once again miss the point entirely.

You've officially crossed into the realm of willful ignorance. By now.

[MADem]

283. Wow, that was rude. I don't think the poster missed anything--and you are assuming facts not in

evidence in a vain attempt to buttress a failed argument.

[GaYellowDawg]

352. The poster made him look like a complete f'in idiot.

The position that 14-year-olds, especially boys, are all are so intellectually, mentally, and emotionally diminished that they don't know the consequences of rape and murder... well one wonders why this isn't an everyday thing and teachers don't have to go to school in protective gear to protect themselves from these little beasts. It's an indefensible position that only a complete idiot would try to defend.

[smirkymonkey]

355. Wow. You are really an idiiot.

can't think of much more to say.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

190. You keep making these appeals to statistics then lecturing people

as if they've done something wrong.

I can think of no system of justice more dehumanizing than one that judges, not on the merits of each individual case, but on some mash of numbers. Hell, let's just trade our laws, judges, counselors and jurors in for a computer and a data entry specialist.

[eqfan592]

216. What an interesting justification for treating children as adults in the justice system.

Disgusting, but interesting.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

219. In other words, you lack a rebuttal and want to shame people into not responding.

Sorry but I'm not that susceptible.

You employ no standard beyond biological age to determine what is a child or an adult. You make no effort to examine the individual in question. You have simply assumed and subsequently demanded a result of your personal preference.

[eqfan592]

220. So your justification is that through some never before seen property...

...this 14 year old managed to leap ahead both in brain development and physical maturity, including a fully developed frontal lobe. Wild.

So you hate laws based on statistics? Should we then get rid of the age of consent completely and instead do testing individually for each person?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

221. "some never before seen property"

How many societies, including agrarian American society at one point, see 14 year olds starting families and households? I would suggest it has been seen for thousands of years.

Should we then get rid of the age of consent completely and instead do testing individually for each person?

Age of consent and age of majority are constructs of duly enacted law by a self-governing citizenry; as is trying adolescents as adults based on the nature of their actions and their attending mental capacities.

[eqfan592]

224. Simply because 14 year old children of ages past were often asked...

...to take on greater responsibilities is not evidence that their brain development was any more advanced than what we have measured.

Trying children as adults based on their actions is a twisted form of reasoning that ignores all data available in regards to the human brain and its development. It's barbaric, pure and simple, especially in a nation with a justice system as flawed as ours, and who's mental healthcare standards are practically non-existent.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

226. Statistics, insults and hyperbole.

Although I will admit, "Twisted barbarian" has a sexy ring to it.

[eqfan592]

229. Not nearly as sexy of a ring as "ignore" has .

People who decry the use of facts and statistics when determining public policy are of little interest in my book.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

230. So, what other democratically enacted laws would you see circumvented by "studies"? n/t

[MADem]

244. I don't think anyone posting here on this thread would feel comfortable with that particular

"statistic" living in our home or in the next house over.

This kid didn't have a problem with "poor impulse control." He premeditated this crime. He brought a baklava, changes of clothes, and a a boxcutter to school to do these deeds. He followed his victim, punched her in the face, slit her throat, committed brutalities against her person (rape w/object), tossed her in a recycling bin, changed his clothes, wheeled her out of the bathroom hidden in the bin, down to the first floor, out to the woods, where he STAGED her body, stole her credit cards, iPhone, and underwear and left a note.

I think he has problems that a fully developed brain aren't going to fix.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

263. Agreed. He certainly displayed consciousness of guilt when he staged the body.

[kcr]

267. I keep seeing this

Would you feel comfortable living next to him/your kid marrying him/taking a vacation/have dinner with him with him baloney thrown at people who don't want to lock up kids for life over and over again. It's so completely irrelevant and illogical that I'm amazed how often it comes up. There are plenty of people I'd not want to have anything to do with in a million years. What does that even remotely have to do with what is just?

[bettyellen]

269. it has to do with how you feel about incarceration for the public's safety.

some people deny that is a real reason to lock people up- that it must be about "vengance", and that is complete nonsense.

[MADem]

273. This isn't a little boy who shot his abusive, child-beating father.

That's a different situation entirely.

This isn't a kid who got mad at his sibling and picked up paw's unsecured weapon in a fit of pique.

This isn't a kid who killed his stepmother who routinely beat and starved him.

This isn't even a kid who has impulse issues, who beats someone to death upon snapping after a perceived slight.

This is someone who PLANNED this cold-blooded rape and murder. He came to school with a backpack full of violent intent.

As far as what's "just," we've got to look at a lot of things. You want to play bleeding heart with a kid who is just broken and will not be fixed, you jump to it and invite him into your home--offer to set him up with an ankle bracelet, and you sleep down the hall from him without a lock on the door.

I think you save the ones who can be saved. This one can't. That kind of brutality and pure hatred, and the ease with which he exercised it, isn't going to be driven out of him with hearts and flowers.

There needs to be some "justice" for the greater community, too. They need to know that they have a right to go to the bathroom in a public building without being punched, raped, throat-slashed murdered, and posed, dead and defiled, out in the woods after some sicko has taken their trophy undergarments as a souvenir of their kill.

And one way to make sure of that is to lock up people who do this kind of shit.

[bettyellen]

268. you won't get a reply because its not about the statitics or theoricals on his brain function,

but rather the very brutal reality that he contemplated these acts and was actually capable of carrying them out.
Some people here have a need to avoid facing up to all that. Impulse control my ass.

[MADem]

277. You are probably right but like I said, I wouldn't want that "statistic" living next door to me.

Today it's a teacher, who's next? The postal carrier? The crossing guard? The librarian? That woman at the park playground with her kids?

I guess, speaking of statistics, what are the odds? I'd say the odds are pretty good that this kid will re-offend. This isn't his response to brutal treatment, this is just pre-planned, disordered thinking that regards violence -- extreme violence -- as the first and best option.

[bettyellen]

287. it is chilling behavior, and no one knows how to predict who will reoffend

it's totally a public safety issue. I wish prisons were more humane, I wish we didn't have so many non-violent drug offenders in jail, of course. But that has nothing to do with wanting him jailed. Revenge doesn't figure into it either.

Not sure why some people here have all those other issues on their minds and refuse to accept it's simply that it would be very risky to let him free.

[MADem]

288. I think he'll likely wind up in a secure psych facility.

A smart defense lawyer would cut a deal--he admits guilt, and he goes to the psych unit instead of the Big House.

He's not going to prison in the near term. He's in protective custody now, in a separate facility, while he awaits trial.

[DragonBorn]

259. You do know if charged as a juvinile he will be released in 3 - 8 years

Do you think 3 - 8 years in prison is a fair punishment for rape and murder? He should be locked up for longer and as such should be charged as an adult.

Want to do big boy crime you can to big boy time too.

[MADem]

278. He won't be charged as a juvenile. MA law prohibits it in felony murder cases.

And good for MA law in that circumstance.

[smirkymonkey]

350. Grow the fuck up.

He is enough an an adult to know what he was doing was wrong. He deserves to be treated as adult.

[Yo_Mama]

80. Then we need to change the system so that a few juvenile offenders can get longer sentences.

The change to trials as adults for such crimes arose as a result of the increased rate of violent crimes by juveniles, some of whom were released and then became adult violent offenders. This is from 1995:
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/22/nyregion/a-case-of-murder-by-a-youngster.html

After more than a decade of stablity, the rate of violent crimes committed by juveniles nationwide began to soar in 1988, according to the Justice Department. Figures for 1991 show juveniles responsible for nearly one in five violent crimes, including rape, personal robbery and assault. The juvenile arrest rate for violent crime in 1992 went far above any year since the mid-1960's.p

Juvenile murderers have been released and have killed again. There should be some intermediate solution. Juvenile murderers who do it by accident in the course of a felony or a quarrel are one thing - juvenile murderers who commit crimes like this certainly can reoffend again.

Now child murderers do seem to be different, but these teen murderers do seem to have a screw loose.

[MADem]

143. It is when the crime is that heinous in the Commonwealth of MA.

There's no death penalty here, though.

MA law mandates trial as an adult for anyone 14 or over who is accused of committing first or second degree murder.

I don't think (and even more so, given the latest revelations) that there will be an outpouring of sympathy for this individual, given the brutal and calculated nature of the crime, and his rather cold-blooded activities after the fact.

[smirkymonkey]

348. Yes, he should. Per state law.

The little bastard committed a very adult crime and he should be be charged with it.

[geek tragedy]

7. Life in prison, throw away the key.

A rapist and a murderer is a rapist and a murderer. No reason to let this animal outside of a cage again.

[Skip Intro]

10. +100. n/t

[geek tragedy]

17. I am interested in learning that there is no chance he will become a repeat offender.

Spending 50-60 years in prison will go a long way to achieving that in his case.

Technically, every rapist/murderer in prison is a human being.

Chism allegedly sexually assaulted the victim with an object. The aggravated rape charge is brought when there was serious bodily harm or when the rape was committed during another violent felonious crime or both, prosecutors said.

More

After changing his clothes, Chism went to a Wendy's restaurant and a movie, according to the source.

The kind of person that does this is broken in a way that can't be fixed.

[geek tragedy]

24. He's not sick. He's evil. there's a difference.

He stalked, kidnapped, raped (including with an object, god knows what), and murdered a young woman.

He then went to the movies. Apparently hearing her scream and beg for her life wasn't entertaintment enough for him.

This wasn't lashing out. This was just evil manifesting itself.

is there a productive role for such people in society? outside of breaking rocks, no.

[uppityperson]

30. I bet he was fed junk food from an early age. Are you saying mentally ill people were all abused?

And that what they do is therefor not their fault?

Which could be ironic, in a certain manner.

[geek tragedy]

32. All behavior is a mix of learned and biological.

Brain chemistry and genetics do play a role.

Sure, we can study this criminal, but that is not to say we should give him another chance to rape and murder for his own entertainment.

Society is better off with him inside the cage, not outside looking for victims.

[geek tragedy]

34. Hospital would expose nurses and other workers to danger from him.

This presumes he can be fixed. There's nothing to suggest that someone who can rape, murder, and then go watch a movie can be fixed. You can't implant a conscience or empathy.

[geek tragedy]

49. I oppose the death penalty. Life in prison is fine. nt

[uppityperson]

39. You want to train a rapist/murderer to work in a hospital?

Or do you mean you want him hospitalized, perhaps in a locked ward, drugged so he is not of a danger to others? What would you train him to do?

[uppityperson]

67. Don't lock them in a cage, but drug them and lock them in a ward? Not sure why those

are the only alternatives.

[eqfan592]

41. Oh what bullshit.

Trowing out the "evil" card is probably one of the most disgusting ways our society tries to convince itself that our criminal justice system isn't an absolute nightmare when compared to most civilized nations.

[geek tragedy]

45. I think that raping and murdering for entertainment is evil. You are free to disagree. nt

[eqfan592]

47. It's no more evil than pretending a 14 year old child is an adult...

...for the expressed purpose of locking that child up for the remainder of their lives.

[geek tragedy]

59. That's a grotesquely stupid thing to say. nt

[eqfan592]

61. No, what's grotesquely stupid is attempting to treat a 14 year old child as an adult.

But please, continue to try and justify that horrific state of mind as much as you like.

[geek tragedy]

62. You're more horrified by my posts than by his crime.

Rather grotesque.

[eqfan592]

66. Nice straw man argument.

I never once said any such thing. I'm just disgusted by somebody who claims to be a progressive trying to justify in any way the treating of a 14 year old as a full grown adult. It just underscores WHY our criminal justice system continues to be as fucked up as it is, when so-called progressives have such barbaric tendencies as this.

[geek tragedy]

72. You're awfully quick to use extreme hyperbole

towards people who want to prevent him from killing again while downplaying what Chism did (" no more evil than . . .&quot

[eqfan592]

90. So you feel that there are varying degrees of "evil" as well?

Some actions are more "evil" than others? I'm not downplaying his actions, I'm just highlighting how barbaric the idea of treating children as full grown adults in any so-called justice system is.

[geek tragedy]

93. When you use phrases like 'no more evil than' you are in fact downplaying it. nt

[eqfan592]

94. No, I'm not. But you seem incapable of understanding that.

Peace.

[LanternWaste]

87. Yes... you kinda did.

"I never once said any such thing..."
Yes... you kinda did.

"It's no more evil than pretending a 14 year old child is an adult.."


(Insert rationalization here)

[eqfan592]

89. Note he said "more horrified."

Or are you going to argue that there are varying degrees of "evil?"

(Insert backpedaling here)

[snooper2]

129. Did you grow up on a farm?

[bettyellen]

139. you equated this brutal rape and murder -"It's no more evil" than pretending a 14 year old child

is an adult, so he can be tried as one. Actually the rape and murder are more evil - and senseless, than deciding this teenager cannot go free at 21.
A maximum sentence of seven years doesn't cover it, not for this kind of brutality.

[eqfan592]

144. You missed the point completely.

We are talking about a person who's brain isn't even fully developed yet, and won't be for as much as a decade. In no other situation would a rational adult feel that such a person should be treated as an equal because of that. Yet for some reason we toss that understanding out the window when it comes to situations like this.

Yes, pretending a child is an adult for the sake of meeting some need for revenge (which we label justice here) is completely barbaric and evil in my view.

[bettyellen]

148. that is because you view it as revenge, I view it as a wise move for public safety.

14, 16, or 24 as you suggest it's all arbitrary. Most countries it is 10-12.
Adults have a wide range of brain development too- lots of dumb and lots of smart people commit crimes. I don't believe for a minute that he didn't know exactly how cruel he was being, or what the consequences could be. I don't even care if he says he is remorseful. He cannot be trusted to be free to walk among us for a long time, that is all this is about for most of us. Public safety against senseless violence.

[eqfan592]

161. Thank you for demonstrating your lack of understanding.

Comparing childhood brain development to the intelligence levels of some adults is an apples to oranges comparison, and given that even violent childhood offenders are extremely unlikely to end up as repeat offenders, the public safety argument becomes a weak excuse at best.

[Cha]

140. +1

[Rex]

214. He is on a roll.

Pretending the 14 year old had no idea what he was doing...I know it is sad to watch, but you know some people here have to meltdown in every thread.

[eqfan592]

218. I'm not pretending any such thing.

You, however, are completely ignoring the realities of human brain development in order to justify charging a child as an adult.

Anybody that argues that a child of this age is mature enough to be charged as an adult should then argue that the age of consent be lowered to that age, least their hypocrisy become blatantly obvious.

[Ranchemp.]

228. Not for nothing,

but he sure as hell was mature enough to kidnap, rape, murder and then try to dispose of the body, and then calmly go watch a movie, you can argue the point of brain development all you like, the bottom line is that this 14yo knew exactly what he was doing, he knew it was wrong and now he's going to pay society back as an adult, as it should be.

He belongs in prison for the rest of his life period and NOTHING you say is going to change my mind.

[Upward]

295. Kids Have a Developed Conscience By 10 YO Or So

Though it may continue to develop, in normal cases.

This is not a normal case. People who deliberately harm others and then seek to neutralize any chance of consequences are attempting to exercise undue control over others. And that's your basic definition of evil, right there.

[smirkymonkey]

313. You are just ridiculous.

[MADem]

147. He had a boxcutter on him, that he got from the art room, and a change of clothes.

Last edited Fri Nov 22, 2013, 09:09 PM - Edit history (1)

The "object" may have been the boxcutter.

He planned this.

EDIT= Prosecution is now saying he brought the boxcutter from home; even more premeditation, to go with the gloves, baklava, and change of clothes.

[greatauntoftriplets]

52. How do you know he's sick?

Are you a psychiatrist?

[uppityperson]

74. He has to be sick because mentally healthy people do not rape, murder. So by definition

there are no criminals because healthy people don't do anything bad, or outside societal norms. Those that do are sick, and most likely due to abuse, poor diet, or big-pharma. See?

Just in case

[greatauntoftriplets]

75. So let's blame the victim!

[uppityperson]

76. Big-pharma and fast food ventures.

[greatauntoftriplets]

79. Physicians!

[bettyellen]

85. I agree he is sick, but this kind of sociopathy is generally not curable.

And if they are trying him as an adult so as to keep him imprisoned longer, I am fine with it.

[morningfog]

132. You are just wrong.

The recidivism rates for young offenders whose first crime is murder is incredibly low, among the lowest. They are also the least likely to re-offend with another murder. There is some interesting information and studies on the effects of adolescent brain development.

He will most likely be "fixed" by maturity and therapy.

[Decaffeinated]

181. So what?

He gets a freebie rape and murder because he is not "very likely" to do it again?

Fuck him... life in prison until he dies of old age or the death penalty...

[morningfog]

187. He can't get the death penalty. Thankfully, the Supreme Court has

surpassed your level of ignorance and hate. No minors can get DP. Mandatory life without parole is also unconstitutional.

No "freebie" should be given. That is just stupid. But, the sentence should fit the age. 60-70 years in prison for something done at 14 does not fit.

[Decaffeinated]

212. How long do you think he should get?

How many years of incarceration is that woman's rape and murder worth?

[geek tragedy]

182. He is an extreme sexual predator as well as a rapist.

Young sexual predators do not get cured or fixed.

This wasn't a dumb kid lashing out due to poor impulse control. This was a sexual predator who stalked, kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered his teacher for his own entertainment, then went to the movies.

That kind of evil doesn't get fixed by having him discuss his fee-fees with a sympathetic ear.

Some people wind up being toxic waste. This is one of them.

[morningfog]

186. You have no foundation for that.

You have no idea what caused him to do what he did. You have no way to assess his ability to be rehabilitated. You are quite simply, talking out of your ass.

[geek tragedy]

188. He went to the fucking movies after raping and torturing and murdering

someone he knew.

All of it premeditated.

A complete lack of empathy and humanity is not something therapy can fix.

[morningfog]

189. Again, you have no foundation to deem that whatever went wrong in his head

can't be fixed. None.

[geek tragedy]

193. It's textbook sociopathy, and it doesn't get cured.

The safest bet is to keep this raping, torturing, murdering monster locked up so he doesn't find future victims.

Benefit of the doubt goes to his future victims, not the monster.

[morningfog]

196. I am impressed by your ability to make bullshit diagnoses.

[geek tragedy]

199. He planned the kidnapping/rape/torture/murder of his teacher, then went home, changed

his clothes, grabbed a burger, then went to the movies.

Tell me who does that other than sociopaths.

[morningfog]

203. Clearly something went very wrong in his head.

Neither you not I can identify, diagnose, or assess what from here. You simply have no actual basis for your determination. Likewise, no one can say at this point whether it is possible treat or correct what went wrong in his head.

[geek tragedy]

222. o rly?

He will most likely be "fixed" by maturity and therapy.

Yeah, that whole rape/torture/murder thing is a phase a lot of kids go through.

[seabeyond]

198. he can watch the rape/torture porn then he wont do it in real life? nt

[geek tragedy]

200. That's it, he's a victim of not having access to rape porn. nt

[seabeyond]

204. see. we have a whole new form of therapy for these bottomfeeders. feed them the worst of the

worse of the most horrendous, disgusting torture rape porn and we will have solved our problem with rape.

who would have thought it would all be so easy. problem is, we need to enslave a bunch of women and children to produce these horrific films.... oh wait. we already have that. we are fuckin set to go.

[seabeyond]

210. for real, i would like for them to go thru his computer at home, or his phone and get back to us.

curious

[thucythucy]

289. What's the recidivism rate for young offenders

who rape? This wasn't only a murder, it is alleged that the offender raped his victim.

Not to mention, at this point we have no idea whether or not this was his first crime.

[RebelOne]

19. He may be a human being, but he committed

an atrocious inhumane act.

[Union Scribe]

158. Completely agreed.

Fuck all this sympathy-for-the-devil crap.

[LittleBlue]

16. Perhaps it is not right to try him as an adult

but should he be released at any age? He's a monster who couldn't possibly be turned loose on any community.

[geek tragedy]

22. Trying him as a juvenile automatically means he gets a chance

to rape and murder again.

[eqfan592]

42. That's right! In fact, just lock EVERYBODY up!

I mean, ALL of us may rape and murder AT ANY GIVEN TIME?!?!?! We already imprison a higher percentage of our population than any other nation on the planet, so fuck it, lets just go all in!

[geek tragedy]

48. That is one bizarre, irrational argument.

He is a rapist and a murderer. Rapists and murderers . . . rape and murder people.

Ergo, we need to be protected from them.

[eqfan592]

63. It's exactly the same level of rationality as you continue to try and use to justify...

...treating a 14 year old child as tho they were an adult.

[meti57b]

83. How is that treating a 14 year old child as though they were an adult???......

Locking someone up in prison is like treating an adult like a child, who doesn't know any better and cannot be trusted in adult situations.

He should be locked up for life. Hopefully they can provide an education to him and some kind of lifelong meaningful work, but all of that should be in prison. Considering how brutal and horrific his crime was .......since he did it once, he may well do it again.

[eqfan592]

91. You think locking somebody up in the US prison system...

...is treating them as a child? What a warped and twisted perspective.

[smirkymonkey]

285. Oh,enough with this pity for a "child".

He pre-meditated this crime. He knew exactly what he was doing. He deserves to be tried as an adult. He deserves no leniency, nor any pity.

[Yo_Mama]

73. Most of the people in this thread have a defensible point of view

Yes, this type of crime is so extreme that one quails at letting him walk at 21. Yes, a 14 year old is not fully mature and there is more chance for change.

Your argument, however, makes no sense whatsoever. His trial hasn't been held yet, but if he is found guilty and imprisoned it will be because he already has raped and murdered, not because we suspect he might again. That consideration is considered by parole boards.

[HangOnKids]

113. Quails?

The definition of quail:

quail
noun \ˈkwāl\

: a kind of small wild bird that is often hunted

: the meat of quail eaten as food



I'm sorry I have no idea of what you are saying. What do quails have to do with this? Could you explain what you meant? Thank you.

[enlightenment]

117. To "quail"

means to drawback, as in "Pricilla quailed from the lecherous advances of Snidley Whiplash".

One can quail out of fear of danger - or they can quail away from an unpleasant situation or truth.

[HangOnKids]

119. The word is quell not quail

1quell
transitive verb \ˈkwel\

: to end or stop (something) usually by using force

: to calm or reduce (something, such as fear or worry)

[opiate69]

121. look further down...

quail 2 (kweɪl)

— vb
( intr ) to shrink back with fear; cower

[C15: perhaps from Old French quailler, from Latin coāgulāre to curdle]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/quail?s=t

[HangOnKids]

122. Thanks! I never heard it used like that.

[opiate69]

123. no problemo..

I suspect it"s more of one of those "Queen's English" kind of words that only really gets used in academics and hoity-toity lit lol

[enlightenment]

124. No, it is quail.

Quell means something different, as you have pointed out.

quail
verb /kweɪl/ literary
› to feel or show fear; to want to be able to move away from something because you fear it: Charlie quailed at the sound of his mother's angry voice. She quailed before her boss's anger.
(Definition of quail verb from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/british/quail_2

[kcr]

115. The suspicion that he'll do it again seems to be the motivation behind a lot

that point of view though. I get a strong sense of that. Whatever keeps him behind bars seems to be a prevailing attitude. Keeps the streets safe! I think that's what the post you're responding to is mocking sarcastically.

[Yo_Mama]

262. Except that's the reason we lock up all murderers

Suspecting that someone might commit another such crime is not unreasonable when they've done it once. It is entirely unreasonable when they've never done it.

Most people aren't murderers. Most people with problems aren't murderers. Most schizophrenics aren't killers.

The reason we don't lock up people with problems who have never committed a crime is because most people don't do such things.

[kcr]

266. Not really.

It's mainly because murder is such a serious charge. Plenty of murders are of the type where it's clear the type and nature of their crime means they're not likely to murder again. They still get a long sentence.

[renie408]

23. This /\

[morningfog]

133. He should be released at some point, rehabilitation depending.

He will mature and with time and therapy understand what happened and why.

[get the red out]

233. What happened?

This isn't a "happening". He committed horrific, inhuman, barbaric acts upon another human being BY CHOICE. This isn't an analysis of him playing poorly and losing a high school football game as in "What happened was that when you were out of position and the quarterback threw the pass......"

I am displeased in that when the word "child" comes up, many people just sweep any adult victims to the side as collateral damage from "what happened" with the poor, precious, must be saved at all costs CHILD.

[MADem]

247. Right, or whatever--it's Massachusetts law.

And given the premeditation, and the heinous quality of the crime, I think it is appropriate.

This isn't some teen picking up an unsecure gun in a fit of pique and shooting someone dramatically.

This was a carefully planned act of extreme violence and perversion.

[scarletwoman]

25. How does this happen? How does a 14-year old become a rapist & murderer?

I just don't understand.

Is it some weird brain chemistry thing? External influences? Family dynamics? Environmental pollutants? Were there indications in his childhood that he might be dangerously unbalanced?

I don't think it's good enough just to impose punishment. We need to figure out why this kid ended up being capable of committing these heinous acts.

This is all just too horrible.

(edited for missing word in final sentence)

[get the red out]

234. Disorder

People are born with all kinds of disorders, when we see someone born without an arm or leg, or with a bad heart we can accept that these things happen. I would imagine the brain can come with disorders as well, it is part of the body, an organ.

[renie408]

26. How do you figure out if someone is irrevocably screwed up?

This act seems to indicate that this kid is irrevocably screwed up. Are there any extenuating circumstances? How do you know? If he is tried as a minor, he will have an automatic chance to get out in just a few years.

Who is comfortable with that?

But who is comfortable with putting a 14 year old child behind bars for the rest of his life?

This is just an awful thing all the way around for which there might not be a right answer.

[magical thyme]

29. 14 is old enough to know what murder is and to know fundamental right and wrong.

Maybe the people who think he's too young to face the consequences of brutally raping and murdering his teacher will offer to have him come live with them after he is "rehabilitated." After all, he can't just be turned loose in the streets then, either.

There are no "extenuating circumstances" that justify this behavior. I don't care what his background is; nothing justifies what he did.

Unless you want him in your home, lock him up and throw away the key.

[renie408]

38. How can you be so SURE?

I am not necessarily arguing with you; I am literally curious as to how you can be so sure that this child is irrevocably screwed up and that there can be no extenuating circumstances.

I hear what you are saying and some part of my gut agrees, but I can also think and that part is not so sure.

[uppityperson]

44. What "extenuating circumstances" would in any way excuse his rape and murder of this woman?

[renie408]

51. Nothing excuses it, but something might explain it.

Awhile back near Columbia, SC, a 12 year old kid burned his grandparents house down with them in it. He was tried as an adult and is in prison for life. He was under psychiatric care when the event occurred and was on meds that were later found in tests to produce homicidal behavior in young people. But this kid is still in prison with no chance of getting out because they refuse to retry his case.

Again, based on what we all know right now...how can you be so sure?

[magical thyme]

68. well that is the sole extenuating circumstance.

But that should come out and in that case, yes, prison is wrong.

I have a feeling that won't be the situation here, but time will tell.

[bettyellen]

81. that kid put a shot gun in both his grand parents' mouths, shot them repeatedly and THEN burned the

house down, hoping to destroy evidence as he stole a car, money and other valuables.

He had issues BEFORE which they hoped the anti depressants would help, but the meds didn't shoot his family in the face, he did. That is just his lawyer trying to evoke sympathy for someone who committed a vicious criminal act. Of course a lawyer will blame meds, twinkies, or anything else instead of admitting their client has no conscience. But that's just it, a portion of our society are natural born socoipaths and psychopaths.

[kcr]

103. What do you think they gave him meds for?

Yeah, I'm thinking it's not surprising a 12 year old who was on the kind of meds that could induce homicidal behavior might have a history of behavioral problems. I guess the grandparents were giving him the meds just in case he killed them so he could claim the "twinkie" defense? That makes sense.

[bettyellen]

126. he had a history of suicidal behaviour and acting out which is why he was on meds.

and he had the same history after, so did they have any effect? the kid was fairly methodical and lied about the incident itself, claiming a black man did it and kidnapped him. When he was busted for it he defiantly said his grandad deserved it. he did not like getting punished for a violent outburst at school and was angry.
So if he was having loads of trouble before and after the meds- we must blame the meds? I'm not sure about that. SSRI's were claimed to induce suicidal behavior, not homicidal behavior. I think defense attorneys came up with the homicidal behavior claims. That's their job, I guess.

[WinkyDink]

331. No; homicidal behavior as well. But of course, I'm just part of the Tin-Foil Hat Brigade.

[magical thyme]

50. Name one extenuating circumstance that justifies murder and rape.

Just one. Think of one thing that would justify this rape and murder in your mind. Did the teacher murder his little sister? Murder his puppy? Rape him? Lure him? Beat him? I seriously doubt it.

Did his mother beat and rape him? Would that justify him raping and murdering his teacher? I cannot think of a single thing that would justify it.

14 is old enough to know what rape is and know what murder is, and to know that they cannot be undone. It is old enough to understand consequences.

After this "child" finished raping and murdering his teacher, he stole her i-phone, credit card and underpants...and went to the movies.

He stole her underpants...think he was taking a trophy to remember his moment of complete power over her?

[renie408]

58. Well, when you put it that way...

I hear you. I am not saying he should just be turned loose. I am saying that at this point I do not know enough to be comfortable saying he should be locked away forever with no chance of ever being free at the age of 14.

[Thinkingabout]

53. I agree, Magical Thyme, let's see how many are willing to take him in their home.

This is a terrible crime.

[FarCenter]

31. In this case there is no chance of executing the wrong criminal.

Therefore, the death penalty would be appropriate.

[renie408]

40. Seriously? The death penalty? For a 14 year old???

Now, see, posts like this one are talking me into agreeing with the OP.

Jesus.









(cali wrote in another thread that they were not OK with trying this kid as an adult)

[uppityperson]

46. You are for the death penalty, so long as it is for the "right" criminal?

Unfortunately once you go that path, sometimes the wrong one is presumed to be the right one.

[NuclearDem]

71. It never is. Not for a war criminal, not for a child molester,

and certainly not for a 14 year old.

[WinkyDink]

332. Sorry; I'll have to disagree, re: Nuremburg Trials (and Eichmann later).

[NuclearDem]

339. Well to each their own.

I don't tolerate the death penalty at all, because if we agree that it can be used for one particular brand of evil, then it's just a matter of time before we start finding reasons to include other evils.

It's uncivilized and barbaric.

[morningfog]

134. Thankfully, society and the Supreme Court have evolved beyond your level.

[MADem]

150. Not in the Bay State. We don't do executions. nt

[Logical]

154. LOL, so if we are "really really really super duper sure"...idiotic! nt

[RedCappedBandit]

356. no

[knitter4democracy]

54. He's a high school freshman.

Horrifying. Just horrifying. May Ritzer's memory be eternal, and may her soul find rest.

[RKP5637]

116. Some people are born evil, it is not always learned behavior. Some people

have difficulty wrapping their minds around that ... but I do question how much true evil they have encountered in life.

[knitter4democracy]

153. I've had a few scary students.

Honestly, with all of them, there were issues in their home lives that warped them early. One had a missing dad and a mom who was massively permissive to the point that he felt he was in charge of any and all females. One was regularly and savagely beaten by his single mother, even on school property with school personnel running to pull her off of him and call the cops. Others felt their gangs were family in ways their own families never had been, and they would do anything for their boys.

For this young man, I don't think we'll ever really know. His behavior definitely seems sociopathic and psychopathic, but I doubt we'll ever really know why he did what he did.

[RKP5637]

175. Thinking back to high school, for example, some students wore their scariness ...

I wish there were a way to reach them early on. One could tell they were headed for some darkness/evilness.

[morningfog]

261. No one is born evil.

[RKP5637]

264. Here is an interesting short article, for example ...

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=do-genes-make-people-evil

[morningfog]

265. Did you read the article?

The genetic predisposition to violence is triggered by abuse and mistreatment. The article suggests that it is the environment that trigger violence, but some are more resilient to the effect.

[RKP5637]

272. Yes, of course I read the article. What it says is there is a predisposition to behavior

which can be triggered by environmental conditions and conditioning.

[morningfog]

294. Triggered by environmental conditions and conditioning.

In other words, mistreatment and abuse. In other words, no one is born evil. Even those with a "predisposition gene" don't become violent offenders unless they are abused.

[RKP5637]

311. It boils down to the old heredity versus environment

discussion that has been going on for decades. My take on all of this is the conditioned environmental influences will have the greatest influence on behavior, predisposed or not. I would not like to think we could have an "evil gene" test at birth, so to say.

To me, environmental influences rule, just looking out across the world, group think and environmental influences structure societies and behavior. Now, that is probably not the case all of the time, ... but would seem to be the most prevalent.

[WinkyDink]

334. Psychopaths might be.

[NoOneMan]

279. WTF does "evil" mean? He has a demon soul? Lucifer is his daddy? Spirits infest and control him?

I am damn sick of this word in the 21st fuckn century. For fuck's sake.

[RKP5637]

281. Please pick a better word. n/t

[Vattel]

57. The crime is horrific, but

14-year-olds do not yet have the same capacity as an adult to control their behavior. So he should not be tried as an adult.

[LisaL]

64. He alreay is charged as an adult.

Which I agree with.

[Deep13]

77. Is there any redemption for a kid capable of that?

Last edited Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:37 AM - Edit history (1)

Whatever the legal response is, that kid is damaged goods and will never be anything but a rabid animal.

[JanMichael]

92. I would not say "rabid" but that moment of hate is pretty nasty. nt

[MADem]

151. A bit more than a "moment"--and for a teacher who was trying to help him pass a test

so he could stay on the junior varsity soccer team.

After he punched her in the face and raped her with an object (the boxcutter he stole from the art room, perhaps?), he slashed her throat so she bled to death, then he took a recycling bin, threw her in it, changed his clothes, and trundled her down the hall, out of the school, across a wide expanse of green, to a wooded area, where he dumped her corpse.

Then he took her ATM card, and used it to buy Wendy's and go to the films.

[Le Taz Hot]

170. Now, now,

the poor little snowflake is just misunderstood.

As a victim of rape I say throw his psychopathic ass in jail and throw away the key. Frontal lobe my ass.

[MADem]

240. His victim was just out of college, still burdened with loans, working at the job of her dreams, so

she thought.

Apparently she was a popular and nice teacher, and a good friend to her peers.

She won't be making any future use of HER frontal lobe, and given the most recent information coming about about the details of this crime--all of the prior planning, particularly--I think the First Degree charge is appropriate.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2013/11/22/police-affidavit-describes-chilling-note-left-philip-chism-after-death-danvers-high-teacher-colleen-ritzer/bQgQkVQFU63kWC0zX6SxlO/story.html

According to authorities, Ritzer was attacked in a second-floor bathroom at the school. When her body was found in the woods, her throat cut, police discovered that her attacker had staged her body and partially removed her clothing. Evidence of a sexual assault was found on the body, according to the affidavit by State Police Trooper Robert C. LaBarge Jr.

Chism was indicted Thursday by an Essex County grand jury on a charge of first-degree murder as an adult. He also was indicted as a youthful offender on charges of aggravated rape and armed robbery for allegedly using an object in the sexual assault and stealing Ritzer’s credit cards, underwear, and cellphone....The affidavit by LaBarge also provides a detailed timeline of the movements of Ritzer and Chism, drawn from surveillance cameras in the school building. Ritzer talked with a fellow teacher around 2:30 p.m. She left classroom A209 and then headed to a second-floor bathroom, followed a few moments later by Chism, who entered the bathroom wearing a mask, the cameras indicated.

And this wasn't a "crime of passion" (such a ghastly term, that):

According to the affidavit, Chism came to school with a “boxcutter, balaclava/ski mask, gloves and multiple changes of clothing,’’ leading investigators to conclude that he planned the attack in advance.

[smirkymonkey]

354. Thank you!

[bunnies]

205. Jesus Christ!

I think being tried as an adult is entirely appropriate. Little psycho. Holy shit.

[MADem]

236. It gets worse. He attacked her wearing a hood, and masked his face

while he was trundling her out of the school in the recycling bin.

He also left a note saying "I hate you all."

[Ranchemp.]

239. It's my opinion that the police stopped a serial killer in the making.

This 14yo deserves to never see another day of freedom, and the public deserves to be safe from him.

[MADem]

241. I think so, too. The "ritual staging of the body" and the taking of personal

items (her underwear, along with the credit cards) as well as the pre-planning--bringing the baklava, multiple changes of clothing, and apparently, the boxcutter (not from the art room, it's being intimated) suggest real issues. If he hadn't been stupid about it, she might have been one of many.

Horrific crime. This is still upsetting people in the state. I think it is a combo of the facts that she was a teacher, in school, and she was so doggone young.

[smirkymonkey]

284. This crime was absolutely horrific.

As someone who lives in the state, I never want to see this kid out of prison. I do not think he can be rehabilitated.

[MADem]

286. I agree. This isn't a kid who beat an abusive parent, this is someone who viciously

murdered the "kindest teacher in the school."

[bunnies]

312. I read that last night.

Also that he raped her with a stick. Little bastard has "serial killer" written all over him. I cant help but wonder if everyone who wants leniency for this psycho would feel differently if they lived close to him. Personally, I hope he never gets out of prison. Its where he belongs.

[magical thyme]

314. he raped her corpse with a branch

He left her body on her back with legs spread and knees bent, with a 3' long, 1" diameter branch in her.

[bunnies]

316. Sick fucker.

This is about the most twisted thing Ive ever heard. I don't even know what to say.

[WinkyDink]

333. No. Zero. Yeah, he'll grow up to live in Suburbia with a wife, dog, and two kids. Riiiight.

[Captain Stern]

78. Considering the crime, this guy should be tried as an adult.

If he committed this crime, as described, there is no way we should be even talking about letting him loose in society when he's 18 or 21.

I'm all in favor of 'life without parole'. If the allegations are true, our world is a better place without this guy freely walking around in it.....regardless of his age.

[ScreamingMeemie]

84. What a mess, what a loss...I am speechless and saddened

...as I have been since this case hit the news. I cannot even begin to imagine.

[Beacool]

86. Poor girl!!!!

"Chism allegedly sexually assaulted the victim with an object. The aggravated rape charge is brought when there was serious bodily harm or when the rape was committed during another violent felonious crime or both, prosecutors said."

I hope he rots in jail, the damn bastard!!! That girl had a terrible death.

[BainsBane]

95. It saddens me that so many here see the justice system as about vengeance

The punishment we as a society inflict on criminals is a reflection of who we are, not the criminal. There is no question that this crime is horrific, and it is possible that, if guilty, this boy may never be fit to live in civil society again. However, there is a difference between an adult and a 14 year old, as any expert on brain development would tell you. The fact he is 14 doesn't lessen the severity of the crime but, in my view, it mitigates his culpability. We should not be trying children as adults.

I would like to see some sort of system that holds violent juvenile offenders until a later age, whether 21 or even 25, and then evaluates them to see if they have changed enough to reenter civil society.

[ScreamingMeemie]

97. This is very well stated BB... We need to have an "intermediate" step.

[arely staircase]

343. I think many see it as a system that should in part at least be about protecting people

I understand your point that distinctions should be made between adult and adolescent offenders. And I am not advocating trying the latter as adults based on the heinousness of the crime. I do advocate that the heinousness of the crime should play a factor in determining when and how the offender is released among potential new victims. so I agree with you as to your evaluation suggestion but I understand the impulses of those who want to see him tried as an adult. I think general primate self-preservation instinct is just as explanatory as revenge.

[BainsBane]

344. Protecting society is paramount

I have no dispute with that. Everything about this case saddens me: the heinousness of the crime; the fact the victim was a young teacher trying to help a student; and the fact the alleged murderer was so young. Nothing about the boy's age or mental condition excuses his actions, but I don't believe our justice system effectively deals with juvenile offenders. The very high violent crime rate in the US in comparison to other countries of comparable wealth demonstrates that our penal system is not working.

[ScreamingMeemie]

99. Really?

The "aggravated" part of the rape charge means (from the indictment):

"Chism allegedly sexually assaulted the victim with an object. The aggravated rape charge is brought when there was serious bodily harm or when the rape was committed during another violent felonious crime or both," prosecutors said.

I think it's a bit more than that.

I think blaming a victim who is not here to defend herself is sick.

Welcome to DU.

[NYC_SKP]

100. Will be gone by daybreak.

Promise.

[BainsBane]

101. Give it 10 minutes or so

[ScreamingMeemie]

102. I just got done searching his/her posts because I swore they made me go "huh?" once before this week

I was going to include the links in the alert. Glad I didn't have to. Anyone who blames the victim, thinks 75-year old women should lose their homes over HOA fees, and thinks Rachael Maddow isn't a journalist isn't "one of us."

[BainsBane]

104. gone

[NYC_SKP]

105. BOOM!

[BainsBane]

106. Did the deed myself.

to me!

[ScreamingMeemie]

109. You're the best BB!

[NYC_SKP]

110. Another notch!

Y'all rock!

[ScreamingMeemie]

107. Job well done MIRT...

Just, really...ick.

[Lex]

118. Her death saddens me, and that a child of 14 could do it saddens me.

Losses both in their own ways.

[Beausoir]

125. He is not fixable.

Throw away the key on another one.

It's sick that he was able to take the life of that young teacher.

[morningfog]

135. You have no way of knowing how "fixable" he is.

[Beausoir]

136. He's not fixable.

Rational people can agree on that.

[morningfog]

137. You have no basis to make that statement. It is absolutely meaningless

and lacks any rationality.

[Beausoir]

305. After he slashed her throat he wheeled her corpse outside and them he rammed a tree limb up her

vagina. A three foot long tree limb...up her vagina. When the forensics team removed the limb some of her vaginal tissue and pubic hair coated the tree limb.

So, deary, tell us again how sorry you feel for the poor child.

[morningfog]

318. Deary? Please.

Get over yourself. I never said I feel sorry for them. Keep your words in your own mouth.

[BainsBane]

138. I beg to differ

Rational people would await a psychiatric exam and a guilty verdict by the court.

[Beausoir]

302. LOL. What a load of bull. That monster is not fixable. He will be caged forever.

He will be forever locked up with all the other animals.

[Logical]

155. LOL, Wow, you based that on? nt

[raging moderate]

145. Okay, I grew up poor as in a slice of bread for supper sometimes.

The word "quail" was well-known to everyone in my lower-income family. Back in the mid-twentieth century, this word was well-known to everyone who read lots of books. which were shamelessly promoted and highly recommended by our local public schools and readily available for free at the local public library. And we spent time reading, because we couldn't afford a reliable TV set. The use of the word "quail" to mean fearfully quavering was QED NOT confined to any hoity toity privileged minority. You guys from these teacher/librarian families, you have nothing to be ashamed of. Maybe your folks had the opportunity to be privileged characters, but they never stopped sharing their knowledge and friendship with people like my family. And believe you me, we are still grateful! Those people changed the world!

[Iris]

157. Speaking as an academic librarian and teacher

you are more than welcome. Even more, you were and are entitled to the knowledge you found in those books.

thank you for making my day. <3

[white_wolf]

146. I don't agree with trying minors as adults. It's a double standard.

If we, as a society, are going to say that you are not old enough to vote, drink, join the military, decide for yourself if you want to go to school, etc. then you should not be charged as an adult in criminal cases. Either you give people the rights and responsibilities of adulthood or you don't, but I don't think it's fair to give one without the other.

[Douglas Carpenter]

160. Why are there age of consent laws and why is the age of consent almost always higher than 14?

Last edited Fri Nov 22, 2013, 11:13 AM - Edit history (1)

Why can't 14 year-olds purchase alcohol? What can't a 14-year-old just quit school move of their house and get a job? Why can't a 14 year old get a drivers license? Why can't 14 years olds purchase guns? Why can't a 14 year old sign a binding contract? Why can't a 14 year old join the military?

The answer to those I question is the same reason why a 14 year old cannot be tried as an adult.

[muriel_volestrangler]

166. There isn't a sudden point at which all points of morality and responsibility at once become clear

Some things, such as murder, are more understandable as wrong, and forbidden, by 14 year olds. Most of the stuff you list requires a person to make continuing good decisions on how to live with other people - obey safety rules, think through long term consequences to themselves and others, and so on. "Don't kill" is far more basic than that. Any 14 year old receiving normal education understands it fully.

[Douglas Carpenter]

168. but all of those matters relates to impulse control. Enlightened society have understood for

sometime that a 14 year old does not have the same level of impulse control as an adult.. The concept of statutory rape maintains that even if a 14 year old freely chooses to have sex with an adult - even if they initiate the sexual situation - the crime of rape has occurred because they are incapable of consent. In the eyes of the law the 14 year-old had no ability to consent or resist even if they were the initiator. I don't think anyone is suggesting that in matters of capital crimes a 14 year old should have no accountability for their actions - just not adult level accountability.

[bettyellen]

293. how does impulse control figure into an act that was planned in advance?

the bakalva, box cutter, the tree branch? I don't think the three fott branch was lying around in the bathroom, do you?

[Douglas Carpenter]

307. one does not interpret the actions of a child the same way one interprets the actions of an adult

that is why we have such things as age of consent laws and rules forbidding children to purchase alcohol or drive

[magical thyme]

321. interpretation? seriously? this was a planned murder, not an impulsive manslaughter.

He brought the weapon, gloves, change of clothes and bakalava with him to school. Combined with a raped and murdered teacher found with her throat slashed by the weapon he brought, and video of him using the bakalava and gloves when following her into the bathroom, video of blood stains on one set of clothes and video of him leaving in different clothes than he arrived in, and the bloody weapon found in his backpack...there is really not a lot of room for interpretation.

Age of consent laws are intended to protect children from adult predators.

Alcohol and driving laws around children are intended to protect other drivers from impulsive children.

Murder laws are intended to protect society from murderers.

[Douglas Carpenter]

322. a murderer that happened to be a child. I simply don't agree with you that children can be held to

an adult level of accountability. I don't think anyone is saying he had no accountability for his actions - only that children do no have an adult level of accountability

[magical thyme]

323. well the Commonwealth of Massachusetts (and many other states) don't agree with you

either. They have charged him with murder as an adult. Personally, I think that is appropriate to both his age and the nature of the crime.

[Douglas Carpenter]

324. well this is completely out of step with almost every other western democracy on earth

It is more than just a little bit disingenuous to maintain that a child of fourteen cannot consent for sex even if they initiate it - but they can be held to an adult level of accountability when it comes to capital crimes

[geek tragedy]

185. Those are there based on the presumption that 14 year olds

need to be protected from society. In the case of this sexual predator who raped, tortured, and murdered for his own amusement, then went to the movies, society needs to be protected from him, permanently. There's no decent human being hiding inside the kind of monster who does this shit.

[Douglas Carpenter]

194. When I come across crimes that I cannot even begin to comprehend where the motivation is beyond my

wildest conception - such as this crime - I doubt we are dealing with an issue of conscious choice. I don't see how there is any way of knowing of this fourteen year old is beyond redemption. But from a legal standpoint - if the law is not going to say that some fourteen year old are capable of consenting for sex with an adult and some are not, some fourteen year olds are capable of responsibly buying and using alcohol and others are not, some fourteen year olds are capable of being safe drivers and some are not - If the legal system does not make those exceptions for matters considerably less serious than capital crimes - I cannot see how the legal system can completely go the absolute opposite direction of its established principles and declare that some fourteen year olds are capable of being held to an adult level of accountability.

[geek tragedy]

197. This was a planned, premeditated act.

He brought the box cutter to school, asked her to see him after school in order to get her alone, to provide this opportunity.

Premeditated murder/rape/torture/kidnaping is not impulse, it's predation.

[HappyMe]

202. Absolutely.

I wonder how many that are going on about brains and impulses would be happy if the kid moved in next door. Go to school with their kids, go to the mall, wander the streets.....

[Douglas Carpenter]

208. a fourteen year old is not an adult.

Committing a crime that all rational faculties would have told any thinking adult that there is a 100% chance that they will be caught - indicates that they were not operating in an adult level of consciousness or decision making. I don't think anyone is going so far as to say that a 14 year-old should not be incarcerated for a long period of time or that they should not be held accountable - But in liberal western democracy is not possible to operate our society by post-enlightenment principles and hold a fourteen year old to adult level of accountability.

[geek tragedy]

223. "all rational faculties would have told any thinking adult that there is a 100% chance that they

will get caught."

1) By that standard, most of the guys in super max should have been tried as juveniles, since they were stupid enough to commit crimes they should have known would have gotten them caught

2) the only way to guarantee this kid won't do this again is to deprive him of the opportunity.

3) This kid raped, tortured, and murdered, then went to the movies as if he had just mowed the lawn. There's something missing there, and therapy and maturity won't add it. If someone doesn't have the capacity to appreciate that torture and rape and murder are wrong by the age of 14, they're not going to learn it at a psych hospital.

[Douglas Carpenter]

227. those guys in supermax are not fourteen years old children - this chlld is

This kid is going to go away for a long time no matter what happens. Obviously when children do something heinous like this there is something missing. There simply is no way to judge at this point if this child can be rehabilitated. But that is what civilized societies do when children commit heinous acts - they try to rehabilitate them.

[geek tragedy]

232. If there were a mechanism in place to confine if there's no rehabilitiation, that would be one thing

But, the alternatives in this case, absent a showing of insanity, are:

1) life imprisonment;
2) at some point setting him free and allowing him access to numerous potential victims

Preventive detention, unforunately, is against the constitution. We can only detain people punitively.

Do we roll the dice with some other woman's life by setting him free? It would take devastatingly convincing evidence of complete rehabilitation to merit that route, in my opinion.

And, just to be clear, this is distinct from the vast majority of juvenile crimes, which are impulsive, peer-pressured, etc.

[morningfog]

319. Life with possibility of parole is probably what he should get.

It is probably what he will get, too.

My point through this entire thread is that none of us know what caused him to do what he did. Some say it was "EVIL" which is just stupid and meaningless. People don't commit these kinds of crimes if all is well in their cognitive development. Usually, it is some combination of abuse or mistreatment at a young age that physically alters the brain development. Or, another physiological defect in their brain.

Without knowing what went wrong with him, none of us are in a position to proclaim that he is unable to ever be rehabilitated. It is without foundation for anyone to say that. After diagnosis and treatment attempts, it is possible that whatever is wrong is something that cannot be treated. But, we simply don't know that at this point.

Life with the possibility of parole would allow for the state to begin to regularly check in 15-20 years from now to see how he is progressing.

[geek tragedy]

320. That sounds very reasonable.

But the evidence should be utterly convincing that he's not a threat to do this again when under severe emotional distress. Pretty easy for someone to seem harmless and 'cured' while in a stable, controlled environment.

It remains an open debate as to whether this kind of behavior is evidence of a medical anomaly or something science can't adequately describe, let alone treat. Is Dick Cheney's lack of a functional moral/empathetic heart as treatable as his lack of a physical one?

[Tanuki]

329. In Massachusetts, a conviction of first degree murder carries a mandatory sentence of

life without parole (I know this because I was a juror on a murder trial when I lived there).

[morningfog]

330. That is true, but the Supreme Court has ruled that a juvenile cannot be charged so as to be

sentenced to mandatory life without parole.

As the law currently stands, a juvenile could still get life without parole, but only after consideration of mitigating circumstances.

[Chan790]

167. I'm in favor of trying him as an adult...

not because he's evil or for vengeance...in the interests of public safety. The kid's broken in ways that can never be fixed...he should be warehoused away from the public forever. That's not cruel, it's common sense.

[HappyMe]

176. I'm in favor of trying him as an adult.

This isn't shoplifting or brawling with other guys his age.

This is heartless, cold blooded rape and murder.

[Puzzledtraveller]

201. I agree.

[Locrian]

257. I agree

14 or not - possible that it's psychological etc - the degree of risk and hence of him being free is too high.

[idwiyo]

211. I would really like to see all evidence presented in this case. Such horrific crime

and such unlikely suspect.

[geek tragedy]

238. He's the only suspect, and his guilt is really not in question.

The affidavit by LaBarge also provides a detailed timeline of the movements of Ritzer and Chism, drawn from surveillance cameras in the school building. Ritzer talked with a fellow teacher around 2:30 p.m. She left classroom A209 and then headed to a second-floor bathroom, followed a few moments later by Chism, who entered the bathroom wearing a mask, the cameras indicated.

At 3:06 p.m., a freshman student whose name was redacted from the trooper’s affidavit walked into the bathroom, but quickly left. The student later told police she saw someone’s “butt’’ and assumed that somebody there was changing clothes, prompting the student to leave.

Over the next several minutes, the cameras showed Chism, who had changed his clothes, bringing a plastic recycling bin to the bathroom, which he then allegedly pushed through the school and out into the adjacent wooded area where it was found about 20 yards away from Ritzer’s body the next day, Oct 23.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2013/11/22/police-affidavit-describes-chilling-note-left-philip-chism-after-death-danvers-high-teacher-colleen-ritzer/bQgQkVQFU63kWC0zX6SxlO/story.html

[idwiyo]

270. He needs proper psychiatric assessment, done by at least two independent professionals.

I simply can not believe that anyone, let alone a 14 yo kid can commit such a crime in their right state of mind.

[bettyellen]

271. by planning the details, then staging her body and leaving a note, he showed he was likely

not in the midst of a psychotic episode. By current standard, he was sane.
Of course, I think anyone capable of this is sick, but it's not something we can ever be assured that we have fixed.
He tried to cover it up, of course they will claim he was "in a state" or blame meds or even her, anything to escape responsibility.

[idwiyo]

290. Doing time in prison is not 'escaping responsibility'. I don't support vengeance based prison system.

He needs to be properly assessed and given appropriate psychiatric treatment, regardless if he ever gets out or not.

I also don't support death penalty or 'life without possibility of parole'. It's inhumane. Period.
Never mind we are talking 14yo kid, someone whose brain is still developing.

For criss sake, 14yo of sound mind is not even legally capable of giving informed consent to have sex, so why the hell would anyone insist they are capable of properly understanding all consequences of such action as murder? What kind of sane person goes for a walk with a backpack full of evidence of their crime after committing a 'meticulously planned' murder? He had more than enough time to get rid of it, yet he did no such thing. Does it really look like actions of a person in their normal state of mind?

Never mind, I am sure 'justice' will be served and pound of flesh will be delivered promptly by the American justice system.

[bettyellen]

292. you go cling to the fantasy that it is about vengeance, or that his lawyers will not blame everything

and anything BUT their client, but that is how these things ALWAYS play out.

I think it's awful our prisons are barbaric, yes. I think he should be treated, yes. but I don't know when we or how we can trust he is cured.
legally sane is different from being stupid, or completely lacking in conscience and capable of extreme cruelty, so, I just pointing it out that the planning involved, with weapons and a change of clothes, hiding the body, etc, are generally enough for a court to force him to stand trial. legally sane is legal concept, dontcha know.

so, I fully expect his lawyer to blame a substance or claim he was "in a state". because that's what defense lawyers do. right after blaming the victims. which makes me want to barf.

[idwiyo]

297. US legal system is vengence based, and it doesn't work. Also, are you replying to the right post?

It looks like you are mainly talking to yourself, and whatever you are talking about has very little to do with what I wrote.
Never mind attempted mind reading, as in the title of your post.

[bettyellen]

299. yes, but it is all we have right now. doesn't mean that no one should go to jail, LOL. sorry.

not leaving the streets full of sick violent criminals just because we don;t have a utopian rehab system right now. most americans feel that wouldn't be safe.

[idwiyo]

301. Did anyone tell you this kid should go free? Where did you get that from? Not from my posts.

I will repeat, in case you didn't understand it first time:

- He shouldn't be treated as an adult, regardless what he did.
- He is 14 yo minor.
- A child.
- He should be serving time in 'correctional facility' appropriate for his age and mental state.

He can be treated and must be treated while serving time in whatever passes for the sorry excuse of US 'correctional facilities'.

[bettyellen]

303. minors automatically go free at a certain age, unless they are confined to a psych hospital

this is why we try some crimes as we do for adults. gosh, i figured you knew that, my bad. .

[idwiyo]

306. There is no point discussing this topic with someone who beleives 14yo is an adult. Is there?

Never mind the question, it was rhetorical.

[bettyellen]

325. I did not see a single person say they think he is an adult. Link, please?

What most people are saying is that they do not want him released automatically at the age of 18.
Easy!

[idwiyo]

326. Lobby to change the law than, instead of arguing he is mature enough to treat as adult.

Last edited Sun Nov 24, 2013, 12:18 AM - Edit history (1)

[bettyellen]

336. I don' have resourses for a new pet cause, but thank you. in the meantime, prosecters make

exceptions, such as this one, and do not have a problem with it. given the brutality and planning involved, an automatic release in a few years would be a huge injustice.

[idwiyo]

337. I repeat, no point discussing this topic with anyone who wants to treat 14yo as adult based on fear.

[bettyellen]

340. Oh please, you want to shame me a scaredy cat. LOL. It is entirely a public safety issue.

I grew up with so much violence and craziness, I can't wish that crap on society at large. Unfortunately - and I mean this more sincerely than you will ever know- we do not know how "to fix" everyone. That is a pipe dream right now.

[idwiyo]

341. I repeat, no point discussing this topic with anyone who wants to treat 14yo as adult based on fear

[bettyellen]

345. nt every 14 year old, just the ones who plan snd commit brutal torture and murder.

to pretend this is about ordinary circumstances or average teenagers is complete bullshit.

[B2G]

274. He'll be assessed to pieces

[WinkyDink]

335. If suspects were "likely" we'd stop them.

[idwiyo]

338. 'Likely suspect' means someone with previous history of violence and/or cruelty.

While there might be such history, it was not made public yet. On the contrary everything that is known indicates he was perfectly typical, well liked 14 yo.
I find it very hard to believe that someone without any history of abnormal behaviour will commit such a horrific crime without serious reason. As in underlying mental problem.

[FatBuddy]

237. sometimes God does make junk

[Quantess]

252. Haha. Well but then again... Somehow I doubt he got a good upbringing.

Something went seriously wrong, somewhere in his childhood. Probably bad parenting.

[NoOneMan]

280. So does DNA, chemicals and conditioning

[magical thyme]

300. the "object" he raped her with was the branch of a tree

He raped her corpse with the branch of a tree.

"LaBarge wrote that Ritzer's body was "sexually staged," and she was naked from the waist down with her bra pulled below her waist. Her remains were sexually assaulted with a branch..."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/teen-wrote-hate-killing-teacher-document-states/story?id=20978940

[Beausoir]

304. Oh..but he is soooo fixable!

[smirkymonkey]

315. What a sick little fuck!

[magical thyme]

317. link to search warrant affidavit...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/page/affadavit-mass-teacher-killing-20981523

[HooptieWagon]

328. We're not talking B&E or auto theft here.

We're talking rape, murder, and armed robbery; planned ahead of time and showing particular indifference and callousness. The kid may be only 14, but he's a full-fledged psychopath. The possibility of rehabilitation is remote. Lock him up and throw away the key. He's already getting a break by not getting the death penalty. If he's ever released, how the hell do you explain that to the family of his next victim?