14 is just too young. I can't accept throwing away the key on children

[cali]

14 is a child.

One life is already gone forever and in the case in mind, murdered brutally as well as raped. I don't believe that it devalues the young life lost to think in terms of rehabilitation an not incarceration forever.

I don't know what the options are if someone is tried as a juvenile in a capital crime. I'm not advocating 21 and done, but throwing away the key, seems to me, not to mete appropriate justice but fall into barbarianism.

but then I'm not a fan of an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth.

[newcriminal]

1. I agree

[yeoman6987]

128. A 14 year old Monster

I always think that the family of the victim should have a huge say in the matter.

[newcriminal]

132. He is a child.

The family of the victim should have no say at all in what happens to this troubled little boy.

[geek tragedy]

2. Would you be willing to have him move in next door to your closest

friends and family?

Someone who will rape and murder is not redeemable. The priority is protecting women from him, not protecting him.

Putting him in prison is not "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth."

[seveneyes]

3. I'm fond of "Never Again" when it come to barbaric acts and ruining the lives of others

The 14 YO who raped, mutilated an then hid that poor woman, destroyed many lives that day. He can not be allowed the chance to do it again. It's no more punishment of the guilty, as it is security of the innocent.

[Chemisse]

4. I generally agree with that sentiment.

And I feel passionately about how wrong it is to keep lowering the age when a child is expected to be as responsible for his behaviors as an adult.

But rape and murder? This boy is a sick puppy. Unless there is evidence to show that someone who commits an act like that can actually BE rehabilitated, I think this one should be locked away for good.

[MH1]

102. I hate to say but I agree.

I definitely agree with your first paragraph.

The tough thing in a case like this: suppose you DO "rehabilitate" the person. How would someone live with themselves, knowing what they'd done, if they had a conscience? Is the next logical step to make the means of suicide readily available? But ...

I am opposed to the death penalty on the grounds that it is harmful for the state to put people to death; there is (almost) always the danger of executing the innocent; and there is almost certainly harm to those that participate in the procedure. BUT, in a case like this, I really wonder what is served by this broken soul continuing to be housed and fed by society.

It's a really tough one.

[Dash87]

5. A sociopath can't be saved. Once he gets out, he'll rape and kill again.

It's only a matter of time.

[get the red out]

29. Thank you

Society needs to be protected. What should we say to his next victim's family? That she died for a good purpose so this poor little baby could be free and hand wringers everywhere could feel good?

[bluestate10]

34. The kid showed no concern for human life. During his first court date he looked

completely detached emotionally from what why he was in court. The kid doesn't seem to have internal controls that prevent one from doing anything to get what one wants.

[laundry_queen]

37. yep.

A good 2-4% of the population are just born lacking the proper wiring to enable them to feel any empathy whatsoever. Rehabilitation pretty much never works for these types - it makes them worse (they learn what buttons to push to appear 'normal' and even sympathetic to be able to accomplish their agenda - which is always and without fail 'look out for number one'). Sociopathy and psychopathy almost always begin to manifest in adolescence. Keeping this kid locked up forever isn't so much a punishment as it is keeping others out there in the world safe from him, because he likely will never be able to function in society without hurting people.

[spiderpig]

96. you are right

One of the most influential books I've read is The Sociopath Next Door by Harvard psychologist Martha Stout. She estimates 4% of the population is sociopathic.

She focuses not on killers, but on neighbors & coworkers who act without remorse when it comes to using other people to their own advantage. You're simply an object to them like a table or chair. They'll transfer blame unfairly without blinking an eye, set you up to take a fall, & not feel a thing.

The only way to deal with these people is to avoid.

[laundry_queen]

97. I've read that book.

It's pretty good. Another good one is "Without Conscience" by Dr. Robert Hare. One thing I found interesting in his book is that even he - an expert on psychopaths - says he still gets tricked by them, even when he knows going in that he's going to be dealing with a psychopath. They are cunning and completely without any kind of feelings (except anger and entitlement).

I was married to one. I can't completely avoid because we have kids, but I have my own way of dealing with him. Still, it's not easy, he still pulls things on us regularly. I did move pretty far away so that helped. It's amazing to me how many people don't really understand what sociopath/psychopath means (some experts use the terms interchangeably, some differentiate between the 2) and that it doesn't necessarily mean serial killer. When I say that my ex is one, most people roll their eyes and say I'm exaggerating. If only I was.

[PeteSelman]

6. Some people are psychopaths.

Doesn't really matter how old they are, psychopaths cannot be put back into society once revealed. It's not something that can be fixed. Same with pedos and sociopaths.

You have to throw away the key on some people.

[renie408]

7. I think this is one of those things where there is no easy 'right' answer.

I am not comfortable with putting a 14 year old child away for the rest of his life.

But then again, I am not comfortable with this same child being free in 3 or 4 years.

I just don't know.

[Captain Stern]

39. That's my opinion too.

I wish there was an easy fix, that could make everything better.

But there is no way that I think anything good can come of letting a person that committed rape/murder walk among us in a few years.

I'm sad that a kid that age is as broken as he is, and I realize that it might not be his fault....but it's not my fault either, or my kid's fault, or my friend's fault.....so I feel a whole lot better knowing he's locked away.

[polly7]

8. I agree also.

Last edited Thu Nov 21, 2013, 09:34 PM - Edit history (1)

The frontal lobes of the brain aren't fully developed until early adulthood and that's something that should make anyone under 18 at least considered for rehabilitation, imho. And my heart does go out to this victim and her family and every other victim.

http://www.edinformatics.com/news/teenage_brains.htm

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[kcr]

9. I agree with you

It is barbaric.

[marsis]

76. NO, what happened to the teacher was barbaric.

[kcr]

79. Really!?

I didn't realize that, thanks for reminding me!

YES. Locking children away for the rest of their lives is barbaric. Civilized societies don't do it.

[smirkymonkey]

107. Oh, please!

What happened to her was barbaric. I can't beleive you have pity for that little sociopath.

[Chan790]

130. "Civilized societies" are rarely that in any rational manner.

There's a serial killer in Ecuador who was sentenced to the maximum of 20 years after he murdered an estimated 300 people...20 years pass, he's up for release and vocally clear that he intends to start killing again. He's released, disappears into the masses, people start disappearing from his previous hunting grounds and the police say they can't investigate him without cause because he served the maximum 20 years and thus is legally considered to be "rehabilitated"...by the time they feel they have cause to investigate him, he's disappeared and nobody knows where he went.


Meet Pedro Lopez, the most prolific "rehabilitated" serial killer in history. (who is almost certainly still killing.)

Just in case that wasn't pointed enough...here is a list of people who will not die in prison because they live in "civilized countries".

Issei Sagawa
Nikolai Dzhumagaliev
Karla Homolka
Anders Behring Breivik
Varg Vikernes
Jon Venables
Robert Thompson

Three of the above are cannibals; one raped and murdered her teenage sister; one is the most prolific spree killer and political terrorist in the history of Norway; at least one is a serial killer; two kidnapped a 4 year old boy before beating him to death, sodomizing him with a tree branch, crushing his head and leaving his corpse on the rails to be hit by a train while they watched.

If this is what your definition of civilized looks like, I'd prefer the one where civilized countries are the ones that lock people who rape and murder away for life regardless of age.

[KitSileya]

138. Anders Behring Breivik will most likely be locked away for life.

Just because he only got a 21 year prison sentence, doesn't mean that he'll be released in 20 years. He was also sentenced to secure holding after his sentence is served. The main difference there is that the key won't be thrown away - he'll be re-examined every couple of years to see whether he is a danger to himself or others, and if he still is, he will be kept. The main difference is that we don't keep our prisoners like animals, or exploit them like cheap labor. We don't let prisoners rape other prisoners, and we don't lock them away in SHUs on flimsy pretexts.

I would much rather live in a civilized society where a 14-year old kid who rapes and murders a woman is considered mentally ill and is confined to a psychiatric hospital, most likely for life, than one where they throw him to a dehumanized prison population like that of Riker Island and the like.

[eqfan592]

10. I couldn't agree more.

We accept that people under a certain age are simply not developed enough to be held completely responsible for their actions, at least not in the same way as a full grown adult. Yet when it comes to crime, even many progressives are very quick to forget this one simple fact.

Of course you'll see plenty of false dichotomy type fallacies, with people saying things like "Oh, would you want him living next to YOUR family??" as if the only options available are a life in jail or letting the child roam free. People seem incapable of seeing any sort of middle ground in these sorts of things.

And with PROGRESSIVES in this country having a mindset like that, it's no wonder we imprison so many of our people and have, without a doubt, one of the worst justice systems in the western world (and even outside of it).

[renie408]

11. If he is tried as a minor...

is there some provision that can be made to keep him in prison after he turns 18 if need be? I know nothing about stuff like this. I am not comfortable with putting a 14 year old away for life, but I would also not be very comfortable with this particular child being able to be automatically free in 3-4 years.

[eqfan592]

18. I would have to assume that if we can put the child in prison for the rest of his life...

...as if he were an adult, we should be able to find something less extreme also.

However, as for the actual legalities, I can't say. My commentary is aimed more at the generally fucked up nature of our criminal justice system as a whole.

[bettyellen]

41. he would be released as a very young healthy man, and that is just too dangerous to contemplate

let him be rehabbed in jail and help other prisoners. he will probably need supervision for the rest of his life.

[newcriminal]

52. They don't rehab in jail.

[defacto7]

60. That's a fact.

[bettyellen]

64. unfortunately true, but not a good reason to set him free early either.

[LisaL]

25. No. Someone tried as minor can not be kept in prison after 18 (or 21).

[renie408]

28. Yeah...then I have to go with trying him as an adult.

[geek tragedy]

13. What is the middle ground between keeping him locked up and setting him free?

Teach him that it's wrong to rape and murder for his own entertainment?

Make him write "I will not rape and murder" 1000 times on the blackboard?

[eqfan592]

17. Really? Is that what you feel the full measure of rehabilitation is?

How about identifying exactly where the wires got crossed in his brain that made him think such actions were acceptable or necessary, then attempting to uncross them? That's just one thing I can think of off the top of my head. I'm not saying the child should be set free, but there IS a middle ground between freedom and life in a prison cell. Perhaps you should see what some other nations do and how they treat their criminals.

[geek tragedy]

22. Unless you're advocating a lobotomy, there's no way of uncrossing the wires

that cause someone to see rape and murder as a recreational activity.

This isn't someone who snapped. This was premeditated and predatory.

[eqfan592]

26. Yes, and I'm sure you have a lot of education, degrees, doctorates, and face time...

...with the child in question to back up that diagnosis.

[geek tragedy]

32. Extremely violent sexual predators

are generally not treatable and have a high recidivism rate.

[Luminous Animal]

48. I just started researching this claim and came across this...

It is an interesting read and the topic is worth exploring more deeply because I've "Extremely violent sexual predators... have a high recidivism rate," accepted that as the truth as well.

Sexual offenders

Main findings:
Studies of sex offending consistently show relatively low rates of recidivism relative to all other types of offending.
Different rates of recidivism are apparent for different types of sex offenders.
Sexual offenders remain at risk of reoffending often long after their discharge from custody

Violent offenders

Main findings:
About a fifth of offenders with an index offence for violence are reconvicted of violence within two years.
Reconviction for violence was highly associated with previous convictions for violence and may be more likely when the index offence of violence is more serious;
People released from prison were reconvicted at a much faster rate than people who had received other sentences;
A more extensive history of offending is associated with a greater likelihood of reconviction within two years; the higher the number of previous convictions, the faster the rate of reconviction.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2002/11/15729/12633

[geek tragedy]

50. interesting read. most salient part:

2.12 A study which looked specifically at rape followed 54 rapists released from a maximum security psychiatric hospital in Canada over a period of almost four years. Of this group, 59% committed a further offence, 28% committed a further sexual offence, and 43% committed a further violent offence (Rice, Harris, and Quinsey 1990). A similar study with rapists and child molesters, this time involving 178 patients over a period averaging about five years, found that 28% were convicted of a new sex offence, while 40% were arrested, convicted, or returned to the psychiatric facility for a violent (including sexual) offence (Quinsey, Rice, and Harris 1995). Research into 251 incest offenders at the Royal Ottawa Hospital Sexual Behaviors Clinic (Firestone et al. 1999) found that, roughly six and a half years after their conviction, recidivism was 6.4% for further sexual offences, 12.4% for violent offences, and 26.7% for offences of any kind.

2.13 Two studies by Hagan and Gust-Brey looked specifically at adolescent perpetrators of rape (1999) and of sexual assault against children (2000). The ten-year follow-up of 50 adolescent rapists released from custody in Wisconsin showed that most were convicted of further crimes, but not of a further sexual assault. For those who committed a further sexual offence, the pattern of assault remained stable in years 6 - 10 as it did in years 1 - 5, meaning this group seems to commit such offences at a fairly steady rate for at least 6 - 10 years after release. No decrease in the risk of sexual recidivism was apparent even up to ten years after release. For sexual assaults against children, 12% of the sample reoffended sexually, 66% were convicted of non-sexual offences, and 22% were not reconvicted during a ten-year follow-up. Though the risk of further sexual offences continued throughout the ten-year period, most first sexual offences after release for this group took place in the first five years.

2.14 A methodological analysis of recidivism studies of sex offenders assessed six official sources on 251 rapists and child molesters discharged from a treatment centre in Massachusetts over a 25-year period (Prentky et al. 1997). The research found high variability in reported recidivism depending on the methods and definitions used. However a number of findings were consistent, namely that both rapists and child molesters remain at risk of reoffending often long after their discharge from custody (in some cases 15 - 20 years); simple calculations of recidivism based on those known to have reoffended during a follow-up period consistently underestimated the actual amount; and

measures based on conviction or imprisonment also markedly underestimated the actual amount of reoffending.

[MH1]

104. Okay, so you successfully rehabilitate him. What's next?

How does anyone who has a conscience live with themselves knowing they did this incredibly awful thing? If they can rationalize accepting what they did, isn't there a risk they can rationalize doing it again?

I agree that it's generally wrong to treat a 14 year old as an adult for anything, especially responsibility for their actions. But this is an extreme case where this child is broken, possibly beyond repair, and it isn't right to put a great many others at risk for a chance that you might save this one broken being.

Unfortunately, not every problem in our society has a happy solution. At least, we haven't found all those solutions yet.

[tblue37]

105. Sociopaths do not respond to treatment. I am guessing that he

is a sociopath.

[XemaSab]

12. I think there should be somewhere other than prison

for people who can never be freed.

I've had the idea for a while that we should just build a small town for pedos and stick them there to live out their natural lives. Let them have apartments and friends and social activities and jobs, but not allow them access to any children ever.

Maybe the same thing should be done for young criminals who commit brutal crimes.

[LuvNewcastle]

99. There definitely needs to be other options besides prison and setting them free.

He obviously needs treatment in a mental facility for an indefinite period. Maybe one day with therapy and the right drugs, he can be semi-released to some sort of half-way house where he's monitored. At his age, if he goes to prison he probably shouldn't be released because being raised in prison will only make him suitable for being institutionalized.

Psych professionals will have to determine if he can ever be let out and how much freedom he's allowed. I know that psychology is an imprecise science, but it's really all we have. They come up with new psych meds all the time that deal with different disorders effectively. Maybe one day there will be a drug that's useful for people like him. I don't think this kid will ever be a free citizen, though. The risks of him being allowed complete freedom are just too great.

[MannyGoldstein]

14. We should dissociate "prison" from "torture"

If these charges prove true, I would not want this boy free to roam society - there is something profoundly wrong with him, who knows what could happen.

But I'm tremendously disturbed by the prospect of his being tortured until the end of his days - prison is torture in the US, plain and simple. People who do terrible things aren't helped by being tortured. We are all hurt by it.

We need prison reform. Prisons like they have in Northern Europe, for example.

[eqfan592]

44. This. nt

[defacto7]

53. Absolutely agree. n/t

[alarimer]

127. This is the correct answer

Prisons in the US do not rehabilitate. They make no attempt to do. They simply warehouse violent and non-violent criminals alike. They often come out worse than when they went in.

I don't know what the answer is. Any prison reforms that involve treating prisoners like human beings are non-starters politically because the politicians that sponsor it will be accused of being "soft on crime." Which is why the age of trying kids as adults has fallen.

We just cannot tell yet scientifically who is capable of rehabilitation and who isn't. Maybe we never will.

[nolabear]

15. I think he needs help, but I don't think he should not be turned loose. My story:

I may be unique around here in that I once volunteered in the girls' mental health unit of a children's prison. The youngest kid there was about ten, but they could be there up until 18. I used to chuckle when the girls, and some of the most ill ones, would be very concerned that I wear my panic button (It was on a chain and if I pushed the button it transmitted to a siren that would blow the socks off the place, and everyone had to run to their rooms for lockdown). Each knew how dangerous the others were.

Those girls were just girls, and needed everything from meds to counseling - mostly DBT therapy because they couldn't cope with talk therapy - to constant supervision to keep them from harming themselves or someone else. They were funny, charming, talented (one of the best rappers I've ever heard was in there, a 16 year old who'd attacked her mother with a butcher knife and set the house on fire), and some, not all, were very, very dangerous. They were, in spite of being children, broken very badly.

I taught them to write poetry, one of the few somewhat contained ways they could approach feelings. Even then it was dicey, because as I said they couldn't take much. The staff always had to see what they'd written so they couldn't use it to jack up either themselves or anyone else. Some was impossibly bad, but some was outstanding. One of the most memorable moments in the time I was there was when, looking for a way to help them express their pervasive sense of being misunderstood, I played Pete Townsend's "Behind Blue Eyes." They made me play it again and again, and the evening ended in the most tragic singalong I've ever heard, all these deeply disturbed teenaged girls sobbing and singing "But my dreams, they aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be..."

But many if not most were repeat offenders. Since girls don't generally act out in the same ways boys do there weren't a lot of sex offenders or outright killers, but there were a couple of the former, and as to the latter it wasn't for lack of trying. Some you could kind of understand (mom's abusive boyfriend, another girl perceived as a threat or relationship disruptor) but some? Some will never get enough better to be trustworthy.

Sadly, it happens. I wish it was otherwise. I adored some of those girls, and what they were going through no human being should ever have to bear.

But I always wore the panic button.

[XemaSab]

16. This is a moving post

Thank you for writing this.

[nolabear]

19. You're welcome. It was a long time ago but they taught me a whole lot.

[msanthrope]

24. I taught children adjudicated into this type of institution, then went to

law school and became a criminal defense attorney. Wow...this post brings back memories.

[TBF]

27. My experience wasn't quite as poignant -

but I did work in a short-term psychiatric unit for awhile. We had everyone from age 6-elderly (whether very troubled autistic child, teenage behavioral issues, chemically dependent, depressed, eating disorders, severe alzheimers). We kept them 1-3 months, tried to get them on the right meds, talk therapy, and then discharge to home or the next appropriate facility.

Some of the saddest things were the number of foster kids (teens) who had been both physically and sexually abused, at least one adult eating disorder who eventually died in long-term care, and a teenage wrestler who accidentally killed someone in a match (it was truly an accident & it caused a psychotic break - he also went on to long-term state care).

It is very sad but some people just do not get better. I would hesitate to execute or throw away the key on this young man but like you nolabear I would also be hesitant to release him for a good long while if ever. This is why mental health funding, and particularly long-term care funding, is so very important.

[defacto7]

61. A very thought provoking post.

Thank you.

[Chemisse]

141. Thanks for giving us a different view

It's so easy to paint people as good or bad, and throw away the key on the bad with no further thought.

It serves us all well to retain a little compassion for even the worst of the bad.

[msanthrope]

20. Rehabilitation implies this person was once habilitated. That is not an

assumption you should make on the facts in evidence.

[Lancero]

21. Age doesn't...

Justify his actions.

Minor offences can be forgiven.

Rape and murder isn't a minor offense.

But hey, I'm sure you can find some way to justify forgiving a rapists actions.

[MannyGoldstein]

31. "But hey, I'm sure you can find some way to justify forgiving a rapists actions."

That was uncalled for.

I happen to disagree with the OP, but she was coming at it from the rehibilitation angle, not forgive and forget.

We're all just trying to grope our way through this life - no need for nastiness.

[Chemisse]

142. Why the snark?

The OP started a conversation about something many of us grapple with. It is a conversation well worth having.

[LisaL]

23. For crimes like rape and murder?

I have no problems with charging him as an adult. None whatsoever.

[TheKentuckian]

78. What really good or responsible actions make a minor an adult with all those rights and

and responsibilities?

[bluestate10]

30. The kid shouldn't walk free again. He has serious problems. He appears to have

problems that have left him with no empathy for human life.

[NuclearDem]

33. For rape and murder?

[fishwax]

35. I tend to agree

[get the red out]

36. Rape and murder matter

Until the vile person who did it is a teenager, then who cares? Nothing is more important than a CHILD, it was only some woman who died anyway.

[scarletwoman]

38. All I want to know is what sort of brain chemistry was in play.

What environmental factors? What sort of family dynamics were involved? How did a 14-year old kid end up committing rape and murder?

I'm fully aware that adolescent brains are not as developed as adult brains - but not that many adolescents go so far as to rape and kill. Is it simply lack of opportunity? Or is it the lack of such an urge? If it is the lack of such an urge, why did this particular adolescent have such an urge?

And having had such an urge - and acting on it - what are the chances of repairing the parts of his psyche that allowed him to act in this way?

Something went very wrong in this kid's head. The question is, it seems to me, is whether what went wrong is a permanent condition or not. How are we to know?

[sendero]

40. I can.....

... if you are mature enough to slice someone up and rape them, you are mature enough to forfeit your life to incarceration. It's really that simple. All the idiotic arguments about brain development and such leave me cold. Only a budding psychopath could do these things at any age, and I want them out of society FOREVER.

[beachbum bob]

43. I agree...trying to soft-sell his behavior

is too chilling for me. If you are willing to do the crime, best be prepared to do the time. ...the kid is a psychopath

[smirkymonkey]

108. +1000

[smirkymonkey]

133. Thank you.

That is all.

[Demo_Chris]

42. He brutally raped and murdered a woman. Throw away the key. nt

[Yo_Mama]

45. Can this type of offender be rehabilitated?

Not this type of offender. When teens do these types of things, there is something very abnormal.

He did it because he WANTED to do it (if he did it - he hasn't had his day in court yet).

Teens who do thrill murders have abnormal brains, not just immature brains:
http://murderpedia.org/male.M/m/mcrae-john-r.htm
http://murderpedia.org/male.M/m/mcrae-john-r.htm
http://murderpedia.org/male.L/l/little-dwaine.htm

This has always happened. It's not new. It's always shocking. People who do this sort of thing for fun seem quite likely to continue.

Jesse Pomeroy, 1874

If we ever find a way to treat such people, he should be treated and released. But regular juvenile proceedings have been shown not to work with such teens:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/weird/kids2/disorders_4.html

In a study of eighty-one boys in a residential treatment program, symptoms of aggressive conduct disorder, along with lying and stealing, were predictive of adolescent psychopathy in those aged 14 to 17.� In other words, if they had a conduct disorder and also had acted in some antisocial manner, it was more likely than not that they were psychopaths.

In another study, the two factors in young offenders indicative of psychopathy were impulsive conduct problems and callous attitudes.� These children develop attitudes of grandiosity and they shun responsibility.� They're also susceptible to boredom.

In a long-term study, children with psychopathic personalities were shown to be stable offenders (having more repeat offenses), were prone to instigating the most serious offenses, and were more impulsive.�

To sum this up, childhood psychopathy has proven to be the best predictor of increased antisocial behavior in adolescence, especially in boys who were hyperactive, impulsive, and suffered from attention deficits.

They are working on intervention programs for children who have displayed a set of traits that may turn into sociopathy as an adult.

Maybe this kid has some sort of other mental disorder, but most normal people will not do this sort of thing, much less be unmoved after, as he has been said to be. True sociopaths have different wiring of the brain, and combine the sadism with the flawed brain, and science does not know how to treat it.

In general, I don't think teen murderers should be locked up for the rest of their lives - there is mostly hope for them. But it depends, and if what we have read about this crime is true, assuming he can safely be released in ten years diverges rather extremely from experience:
http://www.ydr.com/ci_17304470

[cliffordu]

46. I think that kid is beyond redemption

Life without parole. Let him go live with the other violent psychopaths in the local state hospital. Forever.

[defacto7]

56. Sounds like you believe in hell.

Should all insane people at 14 years old be impounded in an institution forever? Sounds like punishment and torture for eternity is what you're after.

I don't go for punishment of people who can't function. Discipline, reform if possible and confirmed, or incarceration after the determination of their adult insanity and non-conformity is determined. Not immediate punishment for the rest of their life just to make the publicans and emperors satisfied and gleeful in which case they could just burn him at the stake.

[cliffordu]

57. Are you kidding with that first two lines?

I said nothing remotely like your juvenile and semi-literate accusation.

As for the rest, well, include that in what I just said.

[defacto7]

59. Interesting,

I didn't say you "said" that, did I? But you certainly gave the impression of someone who wants retribution, and your not alone. I would say your reaction to the comment is meant to impose a bit of punishment for my being semi-literate. I'm afraid punishment alone won't cure juvenile semi-literacy either.

Sorry if I misinterpreted your sentiment.

[cliffordu]

65. Your impressions of me are meaningless drivel. I was talking about one

little scumsucker.

But overall:

I am not interested in any of your impressions.

Really.

[defacto7]

66. Sure cliff.

[WillyT]

47. Ah Cali... We Used To Be A Much Better Society...

Prosecuting children as adults was unthinkable in most of this country, for quite a while.

And we refuse to look at the causes of such anti-social behavior.

And we stigmatize those with mental issues...

And we don't have enough beds for those identified as needing mental illness help...

And we glorify violence...

And we glorify rape...

And sometimes the worst of us sells...

There are people that make great wads of money desensitizing the populace.

I hate what this kid did... but the fact that supposed liberals cannot even recognize he's still a kid... makes me wonder.

In my day... he would have gone to "Juvy" until he was 18... and then, AS AN ADULT, there would have been a review of his rehabilitation progress... and a judgment would be made...

Another five, ten, fifteen, twenty years...

And if he were, AS AN ADULT, been determined to be an actual sociopath, and not just some fucked up wrong-wired kid, he'd probably NEVER see his freedom.

I'm OK with that as well.

But treating somebody under the age of adulthood, as an adult, is just one of the ways our justice system has been totally screwed...

[get the red out]

67. We just don't have mental health systems anymore

We don't have any way to actually promise society that effort would be made to actually determine if he were a sociopath and keep him away from society forever. We have almost no mental health beds in the country, and as we saw this week even well connected politicians can't get mental health assistance for their loved ones. We can't even attempt to keep society safe at this point, if the horrific crime is committed by a kid and they aren't tried as an adult. I believe the anger is about dangerous kids being let out at 18 with no record and no real assessment to just go on with their criminal life. And that includes the real possibility of another innocent person being dead. I know that scenario makes me angry.

[diabeticman]

49. Our system has been set up to give up on children on adults on the old. My wife's friend had

to fight to adopt an 11 year old girl. The system had no problem letting her adopt the 5 and 3 year old brothers but the system was saying the girl is already set in her way. and that she would be more of a trouble maker since she has already shopped lifted once (It was food to feed her brothers)

My wife's friend demanded to adopt all three and she had a hard time to get the girl to trust her feel safe enough in her home but she did it. The girl is thriving.

[K.O. Stradivarius]

51. Hmmmm....

He done crossed the line of no return.



Once you step over it, there's no redemption, rehabilitation, forgiveness or pity.

This "kid", stepped over it.

I would have no problem whatsoever if he spent the next 30-40-50-life behind bars.

[defacto7]

54. Seems at this point the child is criminally insane.

There should be some medium where a child goes through every regimen of analysis to determine their brains physical state as well as the persons psychological state and have enough humanity to do everything possible to improve that state till they are fully formed. At that point determine if the person has become at least able to function in a guarded but humane environment that is not adult prison.

I am also one who thinks there are many people who cannot function in society. But that determination can't be fully known at 14 years old though the probability is high that he will always need a guarded environment. But give it a chance. Life long torture of any creature is barbaric.

[hobbit709]

69. Psychopaths are not criminally insane. They know damn well what they are doing.

they just don't care.

[defacto7]

93. Yes, you are right...

I suppose I am using a personal rather than clinical definition. I would call it insane. If someone has a brain incapacity that keeps them from being socialized, I see little difference from that and a malfunction that keeps them from being cognoscente of who they are or what they do. Both are brain incapacities that keep them from being within a social norm, and a socially acceptable range is what determines civility in a society in the end.

Psychopath, Sociopath.. both are pretty broad concepts. There are politicians who probably fit the latter.

[TroglodyteScholar]

55. Sadly, it's not a question of whether the child can be rehabilitated.

It's a question of whether our country is willing/capable of rehabilitating that child. And it's not.

[defacto7]

58. In which case

it a matter of whether our society is humane or barbaric. Barbaric could be as simple as apathy but barbaric just the same. Rehabilitation is a trial that civilized society should undertake. But there is a point where, after some years, it becomes fairly well apparent that rehabilitation is impossible, but the result should still be humane and not an eternal punishment.

[morningfog]

62. Mandatory life without parole is not permitted for youths.

But, he could still get LWOP as a case specific basis. Or, he could get 2nd degree and be denied parole for the rest of his life.

I agree with you. He will be a different person in 10-15 years.

[Beausoir]

63. NIMBY!

If this animal moved in next door, I wonder how fast your opinion would change.

No sale.

[Douglas Carpenter]

68. I agree 100%.

[n2doc]

70. Fine. But why not focus on those who have committed nonviolent crimes and are serving life first?

He should not get preferential treatment over them. The system is screwed up royally.

[HappyMe]

71. So it would be fine with you if this murderer/rapist

moved in across the road from you? Wander freely through town to the movies, diner, shopping area...

What about that teachers life.....oh, wait.

She died a horrible death. She has family and friends with a huge hole left in their lives and hearts. This little monster fucked up a lot of lives by doing this.

This has nothing to do with vengeance. This is paying for the horrific crimes already commited. All the boo-hooing about this criminal...and yet few have anything to say about the VICTIM here. This wasn't knocking over mail boxes or getting caught smoking a joint. This was cold blooded rape and murder.

[Decaffeinated]

73. But.. but.. but.. the poor baby couldn't comprehend what he was doing because of his lobes!

He probably won't do it again! Why do you hate children so much?

[HappyMe]

74. I guess I'm just an old meany.

I'll think about public safety.

[polly7]

80. I don't believe any child should be automatically tried and judged as an adult

only because they're not adults, and the part of the brain involved in decision-making and emotions is still very much a work in progress. Scarletwoman asked these questions and I thought they were good ones, http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4072660 - maybe it is possible he's just wired wrong and there is no hope for rehabilitation, but how would anyone know - or does it even matter? I just don't understand the need to immediately throw a child literally to the wolves and horror of an adult prison without at least trying for some sort of understanding and the consideration of other options ... which imho should not include release for a long, long time, but at least many years in a controlled setting.

And again, my heart hurts for the victim in this case, and her family.

[Decaffeinated]

81. You nailed it about halfway through...

It doesn't matter.

Either

a) He is not someone who can be rehabilitated

or

b) He could be rehabilitated and as a functioning human couldn't live with what he had done

Both options speak to the need for his removal from society and the gene pool.

[polly7]

83. I understand the anger and hatred for what he did ..

I feel it myself. But I disagree that trying to understand why, at such a young age, he did this, doesn't matter .. if only for the fact that it may help other children and provide opportunities for intervention and therapy.

[Decaffeinated]

86. The time for intervention and therapy has passed...

That was pre-rape and pre-murder. Once he committed those actions, which he knew to be wrong, he has to pay the price.

I would be willing to meet in the middle for the rest. He can be studied so that others might be caught before they cross the line but it's too late for this one.

[polly7]

87. Of course the time for intervention for 'him' has passed, that's obvious. nt.

[meti57b]

84. ...also, it's preventing him from doing it again.

[MissMillie]

72. My biggest worry is that if he's convicted

he won't be jailed w/ other juveniles. He'll either be sentenced to Walpole or Concord.

I don't like the idea of every 14 year-old being tried as an adult, but I can see where some should be.

I wish that it wasn't automatic. I think there should be evaluations and I think w/ the help of trained professionals, judges should be allowed to decide which is the proper path to take.

[piedmont]

75. We put people in prison because we're mad at them or because we're scared of them. This kid...

is the latter. I would never, ever want anyone I love to cross paths with him. And I wouldn't wish that chance on anyone else.

This isn't vengeance, FFS. This is protecting society from further harm by this person. The chance of a repeat is unacceptably high.

[Adsos Letter]

117. Don't discount vengeance.

I suspect there is a share of that motivating responses.

[DetlefK]

77. Would you let your daughter date this person?

Imagine, it's 11 years in the future.
* He's 25 years old and fully rehabilitated. He went through all the programs and all the doctors say, he's a brand-new person.
* You have a daughter that's 25 years old.

Would you be okay with a relationship between them?

[MadrasT]

82. Since when does a parent "let" their 25 year old daughter do something?

Twenty-five year old women are fully functioning adults who are perfectly capably of make up their own minds about things.

[DetlefK]

139. Nice try to switch the topic.

You attack my phrasing, but not my premise.

Would this hypothetical father be okay with his daughter dating a rapist and murderer? Or would he try to talk her out of this relationship?

[LordGlenconner]

85. Context would be nice

For those of us who don't have all day to troll the interwebs.

[HappyMe]

88. Here's the other OP.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4071944

[zabet]

89. My oldest sister was

Ri a psychiatric nurse at a facility. She was murdered by a patient. This patient had murdered before but tried as a minor.....when he got out....within 3 month he murdered my sister (she was his nurse at the facility).

So, I know some can never be rehabilitated.

[smirkymonkey]

135. How horrible! I am so sorry for you.

Please accept my by best wishes.

[zabet]

140. Thank you very much.

[Ranchemp.]

90. I'm of the opinion that the police stopped a serial killer in the making,

the planning, the staging of the body in a sexual pose, the taking of the victim's personal items, the note, all those are the hallmarks of a serial killer.

I have no problem with the state of MA charging this 14yo as an adult and the public deserves to be protected from him.

[erpowers]

91. Life In Prison

In most cases I do not support giving life sentences for people aged 14 years or younger. However, in this case I think life in prison is the proper sentence. His act was brutal.

[NM_Birder]

92. At 14 he planned, ... and then executed the plan to

1 follow his victim
2 slit the throat of his victim
3 change his clothes to disguise the murder
4 account for transportation of the murdered victims body, and then execute the transportation of the body
5 display the murdered victims body for maximum impact when found
6 assault the murdered victims body in a "sexual" manner
7 take her panties as a trophy

But meh....she was just a 20 whatever young white teacher, so maybe if she had a hoodie and some ice tea the discussion would be about her innocence and the senseless, brutal, cold, calculated manner she was victimized, assaulted and murdered. He did murder her with just a knife, not a gun after all. He has so much promise with his young life. Her young life...again meh....what's done is done, no use crying over spilled blood, how soon can we get this young child back into the civilized world. To believe this "thing" should ever feel sunshine again devalues the meaning of the word "human".

When a cancer is discovered it is removed. This "child" is a cancer in the truest form, my wish is that he would be disposed of quickly and without media fanfare, then deposited in whatever prison cemetery had room, but I could be satisfied with life in solitary.

[Starry Messenger]

94. I completely disagree.

I know people are coming from a caring place, wishing there was a way to help a kid out.

I wish we knew what part of the brain creates psychopaths, so we could catch it before they hurt someone. But we don't.

And this young teacher, full of the impulse to help this young person, totally trusting the circumstances, was brutally attacked and killed without warning.

Life in prison won't bring her back, but it's all we have to keep the student from ever doing this again.

[Beausoir]

95. After he slit her throat he hauled her in a garbage bin out to the woods and then he rammed a 3 foot

long birch limb up her vagina. When the forensics team extracted it, a bunch of her vaginal tissue and pubic hair was stuck to the tree branch.

So, tell us again how sorry you feel for this poor kid.

[newcriminal]

98. I feel sorry for this poor kid.

And anyone who doesn't is the monster. IMO

[Ranchemp.]

109. You are one sick puppy.

[rug]

110. So, acknowledging that a person acuused of rape and murder is a 14 year old makes one a sick puppy?

What the hell is your job title anyway?

honing my shooting skills in conjunction with my job title

[Ranchemp.]

111. U.S.M.S.

Showing more empathy for the killer than the victim is just plain sick.

[rug]

112. A federal marshal.

Quelle surprise.

In any event, humans are capable of sympathizing with both victims and perpetrators, especially one who is 14. Life is too complex for either/or snap judgments.

[Ranchemp.]

113. You have your opinion,

I have my opinion.

[rug]

114. We both have the fact that, regardless, this kid is still 14.

What happens to him will in some measure dictate an opinion on us as a society.

[Ranchemp.]

115. Fair enough.

The fact that he planned this, executed the plan, and then tried to hide it leads me to the opinion that this kid knew exactly what he was doing, he knew it was wrong, and, AFAIC, the police stopped a serial killer in the making, so, charging him as an adult is appropriate and a possible life sentence is also appropriate.

[rug]

116. Those facts are not yet known.

For all the information that's been released, it could have been a crrime of opportunity followed by panic and a clumsy coverup. All hatched in the mind of someone studying algebra.

[Ranchemp.]

118. Facts are known,

he brought a box cutter, he brought xtra clothing, he brought a hood to hide his face, after slashing her throat, he changed his clothes, he put her in a cart and dumped her in the woods behind the school, he sexually assaulted her with a tree limb, he took her underwear, Iphone and credit card, he got something to eat at Wendy's using her credit card, he went to the movies, again, using her credit card.

This was no crime of opportunity, this was a pre-planned crime.

[rug]

123. I presume then that, if called, you would inform the court you could not be a fair juror.

[Adsos Letter]

119. Clumsy coverup?

The way he treated her body when he disposed of it?

[rug]

122. What do you call it?

[magical thyme]

125. desecration of her body, and staging it for maximum shock value when found, i.e.

with her blouse pulled up and her bra pulled down, no clothes below the waist, lying on her back with her legs spread and knees bent, with a 3 foot long, 1" diagmeter tree branch jammed up her vagina, and a thin layer of leaves spread over her.

He expected her body to be found, and intended it shock those who found it.

He intended to hurt as many innocent people as he could. Her family, of course, knowing what she suffered in her last minutes, the people who discovered her body, her friends and co-workers, the students who loved her.

This wasn't the act of an immature mind. This was the act of a depraved mind.

[rug]

126. If it is depraved, that has a lot do do with whether or not there's guilt.

And while we're on the subject, what do you think happened to this 14 year old that brought him to this point?

"I don't give a shit" is not an answer.

[magical thyme]

129. I have no idea what you mean by that...

His mind was capable of planning and executing a brutal rape and murder. He has confessed to the crimes and provided details that fit with the video timelines. He is, therefore, guilty of the crimes and is likely to be found legally guilty unless his lawyer is able to arrange a plea deal.

As to what happened to him, we know that he is a child of separation/divorce, as are many. That his father had limited visitation and his mother filed for divorce based on physical and emotional abuse, which is also pretty common.
We also know that he didn't want to leave Tennessee and that he had a girlfriend there who was friends with him for a several years. Again, not unusual.

I have no idea what happened to him. I expect, based on the viciousness of the crime, that he is a psychopath.

[rug]

131. These actions don't come out of the blue, especially not for a 14 year old.

A fundamental concept of criminal liability is the defendant's mental state.

It's even a more fundamental concept in sentencing.

While the depravity, if proven, makes the crime more horrible than others, it is also evidence as to his state of mind. LWOP is not even part of the calculation until these facts are also discovered.

[smirkymonkey]

136. +1000

[sendero]

100. It has nothing to do with revenge..

.. it has to do with making sure a rabid dog does not kill again. I don't care if he is 12, if he is old enough to do something like this he is old enough to forfeit any possibility of ever living a normal life in society.


There is no cure for the sociopath which is almost certainly what we are dealing with here.

[jessie04]

101. Very difficult call.

my 2 cents... he should serve a long sentence , obtain his hs diploma, and then work during the day and incarcerated at night ...for life.

[randome]

103. Agree in principle. And I would be against the death penalty.

But all of us 'work with what we have' in regards to making the most of our lives.

Even with life in prison, if this kid wants to redeem himself, he'll just need to find ways to do that. There is 'room' in a life sentence for him to have a positive effect on others. If he can't, then that's on him.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[NaturalHigh]

106. I'm fine with preventing the damage this young man will undoubtedly do in the future.

That probably means locking him up for the rest of his life.

[historylovr]

120. I'm sorry, but he should be locked up.

Can you honestly think someone who would plan and commit such a horrific crime can be rehabilitated? How many more barbaric acts would he have to commit, then, to be considered a danger to society?

[Vattel]

121. I agree with you Cali.

Many posts here simply take for granted that, first, the individual in question is a psychopath and, second, that psychopaths can't be rehabilitated. But not every 14-year-old who commits a brutal crime is a psychopath, and I know of no diagnosis of psychopathy in this case. The second point is more arguable, but there has been some success in pilot studies aimed at treating juvenile psychopaths. Punishment hasn't been effective but positive reinforcement has.

[DrDan]

124. agree with that - 14 is just too young regardless of the crime

I just do now understand DUers who see otherwise.

[Drew Richards]

134. Guess I'm outside the social norm then. I believe, if you rape or murder you should just fucking

Be executed either one of these actions make you unworthy of breathing air.

And IF this was the societal standard for committing these crimes I believe these crimes would not be so prevalent.

[smirkymonkey]

137. +1000

[aikoaiko]

143. How is life in prison "an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth" for rape/murder????

Last edited Mon Nov 25, 2013, 01:27 AM - Edit history (1)

If the charges are true, he raped and killed. Life in prison is a reasonable sentence.