Everyone I know from Europe in the U.S. wants to move back to Europe.

[onehandle]

Professionals who have come here in the last up to 10 years or so.

Nothing to do with 'homesickness.'

[NightWatcher]

1. Everyone I know named William will also answer to Hey Billy

[Morphia]

2. I know lots of Americans who would rather live in Europe

If people could freely move between countries, the world would be a very different place.

[ogradda]

3. Hell I want to move back to Europe

and I've never even been there.

[Recursion]

4. Oh I don't know; I see people who want to go either way

And I think which part of Europe you're talking about matters, too; Europe as a whole has much higher inequality than the US, after all.

[CTyankee]

7. Western Europe is more equal, IMO. Eastern European countries prolly has less equality.

Sometimes I really wish my bi-lingual grandson would visit Italy when he grows up and marry an Italian so he could have a citizenship option...

[Recursion]

15. Hence, "Europe as a whole"

After taxes and transfers, the Eurozone Gini is something like .42, and ours is something like .37. Part of that is because the Eurozone member states fund their safety nets by a VAT system that, oddly enough, is far too regressive to ever pass in the US.

[NaturalHigh]

27. "Eurozone Gini"

Could you tell me what you mean by that? I've forgotten everything I ever learned about economics.

[Recursion]

41. Sorry, it's the simplest measure of inequality of a population

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

It's not just an economic thing; it can be used in any distribution and gets used in probability a lot. A lower coefficient means greater equality (0 would mean everybody has exactly the same amount of money; 1 would mean exactly one person has everything; generally countries are somewhere between .3 and .6)

Each individual country within the Eurozone has a low Gini coefficient, but the Eurozone as a whole has a rather high coefficient -- which is why people are moving from Poland to France.

[NaturalHigh]

44. Thanks for the explanation.

I'll have to let it soak in a little, but I think it makes sense now.

[Spider Jerusalem]

38. Not actually true, according to this data from the OECD

http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Management/oecd/economics/oecd-economic-surveys-norway-2012/gini-coefficients-before-and-after-taxes-and-transfers_eco_surveys-nor-2012-graph1-en#page1

[Recursion]

40. Did you post the wrong link?

That doesn't have the Eurozone's Gini coefficient anywhere listed.

I'm talking about the Eurozone as whole. It's significantly more unequal than the US as a whole, because the US does a lot of transfers from, e.g., New York to Arkansas.

[Spider Jerusalem]

47. You're still wrong.

No Eurozone country has a Gini coefficient BEFORE taxes and transfers which is higher than the USA's AFTER taxes and transfers.

[Recursion]

48. You're still wrong

No Eurozone country has a Gini coefficient BEFORE taxes and transfers which is higher than the USA's AFTER taxes and transfers.

True, and irrelevant. I'm talking about the Gini of the Eurozone as a whole. The individual states' Ginis are irrelevant.

[Spider Jerusalem]

49. The Euro area Gini is 30.5.

Data from Eurostat. Before taxes and transfers. (US Gini is 45 before taxes and transfers and 36 after, for the US as a whole.) Therefore, you're wrong, sorry.

[Recursion]

50. We have different data then.

I'm talking about the actual eurozone per se. I know you're wrong because 30.5 is the OECD average, and the Eurozone is far above that.

[Spider Jerusalem]

53. Nope

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&language=en&pcode=tessi190

Are you even aware of what the term "Eurozone" refers to? NB that "Eurozone" is not synonymous with "EU". The Eurozone is the Euro currency area.

[Recursion]

54. Yes, I think you're mistaken about that

You seem to be confusing "Eurozone" with "EU". Glad that you're coming around, though. It might help to figure out the difference between "Eurozone" and "EU". One is a monetary/customs union, the other is a much more political structure, and they are not the same.

But the Gini of the Eurozone is shockingly high.

[Spider Jerusalem]

57. No, you're the one doing that. I linked you to the data.

[Recursion]

58. Nope.

No data above. Feel free to link to something showing the Gini (or some other measure of inequality) of the Eurozone as a whole, not its member states.

[Spider Jerusalem]

61. Again, I did that:

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&language=en&pcode=tessi190

Scroll down to where it says "Euro area - 17 countries". Then follow that row across to the column under "2012". And what do you see? 30.5.

[Recursion]

64. Nope, still nothing about the Eurozone

Start here:
http://www.social-europe.eu/2012/09/income-inequality-in-the-eurozone-what-are-the-effects-on-growth/

[Spider Jerusalem]

65. "Eurozone" and "Euro area" are synonyms.

So yes, the data are right there in the link I gave you. (More recent data than cited in your link.) Either you can't actually read, or you're being deliberately obtuse.

[Recursion]

70. Still nothing. Here's James Galbraith on it

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/04/jamie-galbraith-on-inequality-and-instability.html

And when you do that, when you take what had been isolated labor market situations and bring them into direct interaction with each other, you have to measure the inequality on the new basis, on the new foundation. And nobody had done that. And what we found was that in fact when you do that, European inequality, taking into account the differences that exist between, let’s say, Germany and Poland or between Norway and Portugal, is actually larger in wages than it is in the United States.

The book is here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/019985565X/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=matthygles-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=019985565X

[Spider Jerusalem]

73. "Europe as a whole" is not the Eurozone.

The Eurozone consists of the European countries that use the Euro currency. If you're going to use a term it's a good idea to know what it means.

And Texas isn't California isn't New Hampshire isn't Mississippi, either. So the entire basis of this argument is fundamentally and deeply flawed. Considering that the overall inequalities of the US as measured by conventional means don't take into account the fundamental differences between states, either, and when talking about Mississippi, or Alabama, vs California or New York or Massachusetts? That's a much larger inequality than between Finland and Portugal. (Poland? Not on the Euro, either.)

[CTyankee]

5. With only one exception, I have zero ESL students from Europe...

Even my Turkish students have dropped off to zero lately. I currently only have an engineer from Mexico (who will return to Mexico and use his English skills to develop business in both Mexico and the U.S.) and a young man from Benin. Prior to them I had Iranian and Chinese students.

My one exception is a retired worker from Bratislava who came to the U.S. many years ago when there was a Czechoslovakia and it was in the Soviet bloc. He is very advanced and really wants to talk about politics to help him understand our system better (which I am happy to do!).

My Mexican student is reading a history of the U.S. union movement, which I got from a friend who was a steward in his union when he was working).

Before these students, I tutored a South Korean who runs a local nail salon.

[OldEurope]

20. Part of the problem:

the so called Bologna Process. Universities in Europe changed everything. Now students don't have enough time to look for chances abroad. And many of them don't have enough money, because it is hardly possible to work besides the curse of studies. So, if the parents are not able to pay, the student is not able to visit America.

And: America is no longer the dreamland of Europeans. My daughter, for example, said she'd prefer to go to another country to get her term abroad (which is required in her studies). Maybe Canada or those countries "down under".

[Yo_Mama]

6. Then why don't they?

This may come through as a snide question, but it is not meant to be. It's a sincere question. Is it that their lives/families/jobs are now here?

There should be no obstacle whatsoever for anyone from a European country to repatriate. It's harder for a non-European to go and get working/residence permits. I do know several younger people who graduated and got jobs in Germany in the last few years, though.

[loli phabay]

8. pretty much a good question, as another poster said i see it both ways

And for lots of different reasons whether its homesick, financial or family reasons. You are always going to get people in either zone wanting to move to the other.

[CTyankee]

9. Our local refugee organization gets people from some of the most desperate places on the planet.

When I worked with them, they had Afghanis and Somalians. Incredibly resilient people who faced absolute horrors in their native lands. So by comparison, they have a better place here in the U.S. However, they are from countries without a written language it is tough to integrate into American society. But those people have developed fabulous memorization skills...

[Recursion]

16. I remember when I was working with Afghan refugees

Last edited Sun Nov 24, 2013, 03:31 PM - Edit history (1)

They had seen every horror imaginable, but they had to have the concept of "homelessness" explained to them.

"What do you mean they don't have a place to live? Their distant cousins would obviously take them in, right?"

[CTyankee]

17. I had a class of all women Afghanis (males had a male tutor) and the difference in the

Last edited Sun Nov 24, 2013, 05:16 PM - Edit history (1)

older women from the younger ones was striking. The older women had been somewhat infantilized, very passive. The younger ones (who were there just to accompany the older women) were much more independent and self sufficient.

[Art_from_Ark]

74. It's hard to move across an ocean

In 10 years, a person can accumulate a houseful of stuff. Packing it up and sending it across an ocean is tedious and expensive. There's also the question of work-- I have a job where I am, but will I be able to find anything if I return to my home country? And the longer someone stays in another country, the greater the inertia that sets in.

[LuvNewcastle]

10. Most Europeans I've known get homesick a lot, which is understandable

for anybody from almost anywhere. If I was in Europe for a long time, I'd probably miss some things about the U.S. too. The people I've known from western Europe usually want to go back, but the eastern Europeans seem to be a lot more happy here. I think it's mostly about whether or not you had anything to leave in the first place.

[loli phabay]

12. i would say it depends more on what they have built here rather than the area of europe they are

From. Also as you say what they have to go back to.

[CTyankee]

19. I certainly agree with that! So many Americans just don't know how people in western European

countries live. They think having "socialized medicine" is a terrible thing and they don't really know what that means. And the republicans play on that ignorance...

[piedmont]

11. cool story bro

[RichGirl]

13. The grass is always greener....

As Erma Bombeck said...the grass is always greener over the septic tank. We are currently living over the septic tank so let's just wait for spring.

Of course we have huge problems...I'm not in denial about that. But it's better to be positive and do your best to help fix it. I have found in life that people who have a habit of complaining will always find something to complain about. Wherever you go...you take yourself with you.

I was born in Europe and have traveled there many times and would encourage anyone to visit or go live there...especially Americans who have never been there. If FOX NEW viewers spent one week in Italy they would be clamouring for socialism!

[CTyankee]

14. I have a European travel "bucket list" I'm working on...my 5th trip to Italy will be in March...

also on the list, two more trips to Spain and at least one more trip to France...at my age I figure I have another 5 good years to travel in Europe. So it's carpe diem for me...

[Fumesucker]

59. Technically, Bombeck was wrong

The grass is greener over the drain field, not the septic tank..

But I understand the point.

[geek tragedy]

18. Do they have jobs waiting for them back there? nt

[ladyVet]

21. Tell them goodbye for me, then. nt

[YoungDemCA]

22. Where in Europe? There are certain countries there that are in worse shape than the US...

Economically and politically, I mean.

[gollygee]

23. Yeah?

I know several European immigrants who are happy here.

[MineralMan]

24. Everyone I know in Europe wants to move to the United States.

[CTyankee]

34. but where in Europe?

[WinkyDink]

45. I don't believe this for a minute.

[MineralMan]

62. You don't? But you don't know

everyone I know in Europe, so how would you know what they think?

It's the same issue with the OP's statement, really, isn't it?

[NaturalHigh]

25. Even the Russians?

Well, I guess that's kind of Eurasia.

A good friend of mine is Czech, and he can't believe that I even want to visit his country.

[elleng]

26. Me too but I'm not FROM Europe.

A sad mess we've got here, keeps getting worse imo.

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

28. My wife is Eastern European,

loves it here. She has grown to love political debate, quite amusing to watch.

[kelliekat44]

29. Yep...they take the money and run. And there a lot of EUers here as well as Slavic ,Balkan, Asian.

TMost of them never would have accomplished in their homeland what they achieved here. Can't blame them...blame the corporate-capitalistic system they all love and don't have to contribute to

[undeterred]

30. I know a couple from Ireland who moved here because their economy is so bad.

Our economy is doing great compared to theirs and they are not moving back.

[CTyankee]

32. Ireland accepted the "austerity" crap that is being urged on US. That is why their economy

suffered so greatly. Just wait till the RW austerians get thru with us. We'll look like Ireland...

[RKP5637]

31. If I had an opportunity to live in europe, I would not look back. The US has become

unpleasant in many ways. And if the US swings anymore RW, it will be a deplorable place to live for many. Problem is, so many Americans are so information limited.

[cali]

55. kinda depends what state you live in. VT continues becoming more

progressive.

Politically, environmentally and community wise, it's a good place to live.

The weather, however, isn't for everyone. This much winter can be hard.

[RKP5637]

68. Yes, definitely true! Vermont is a bright spot! I spent time there in my youth. I was

thinking of living there in my older years, but it seems a bit expensive, maybe I was just looking in the wrong areas. I've always loved Vermont from the time I was a tiny tiny kid a long time ago.

[CFLDem]

33. Well people do tend to miss home.

It's a bias we all have.

That said I agree with the rest of the posters that the most valuable location depends I what you happen to be looking for.

As for me, I still think the US still holds a lot of value. Mostly because it's at least seven countries in one.

[mnhtnbb]

35. I know someone from MO who moved to France last summer

after meeting the man of his dreams the previous summer.

They are now married, in France. He LOVES living in Lyon.


We just came home from a 3 week trip to Vienna, Salzburg, Prague, Berlin.
Our youngest son is in Berlin until next July on a Fulbright scholarship.
Although he's applying for graduate school in the US fall 2014, we've encouraged
him to think about living in Europe (Germany) permanently.

They are so far ahead of us in terms of social justice. Energy conservation.
Great public transportation systems. Universal health care.

Who wouldn't want to live in Europe? Sarah Palin fans?

[CTyankee]

37. When I read "Under the Tuscan Sun" I was sick with envy of Frances Mayes, the author.

She was an writing professor at a college in CA and bought a house in Cortona, Tuscany, where she could live in the summers when she wasn't teaching. That book is enough to make you want to pack your bags and join her! I've since read two of her other books on living in Italy and I still have little fantasies that I could do the same...

[Bradical79]

36. There are certain European countries where I might rather live.

Others not so much. U.S. isn't then only place with right wing nuts. I'm sure for many though living in the U.S. is a serious downgrade if they have to deal with any kind of medical problem.

[JCMach1]

39. you left off the second part of their sentence... 'when they can afford to'

Cost of living is still surprisingly cheap in America... I was actually shocked to even find it is cheaper than a city like Nairobi.

[libdem4life]

42. Spent 6 months in Montpelier late 70's...planned to stay, but couldn't. I'd go back in a heartbeat.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. The USA is a big place.

Which part of the US are these people in?

[randome]

46. Then please give us some anecdotes. Otherwise, this OP looks like you need a good night's sleep.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Lurker Deluxe]

51. Funny

We have three people who will be leaving the US and headed "home" at the beginning of next year.

All of them will have jobs when they get home, with the same company. They all applied to open vacancies and were granted work visas to come to the US and work for a period of time: 3-5 years. Now that those visa are up they have to return, and not a single one of them want to leave.

Niklas is the one I know the best and he will be missed. His simple goal when he got here three years ago was, "to have a corvette" ... which he accomplished.

The other two are not in my department and I do not know them but in passing, but I can promise you they do not want to leave.

The company I work for is based in Europe and, guessing, I would say about a third of our workforce is from somewhere other than the US, another 20% or so are naturalized US citizens, and the rest local. There are very few who are here on visas that want to return, and those who have become citizens certainly do not wish to leave.

I have applied several times for jobs posted in other countries and have never been allowed to transfer because, "the lack of talent here in the US". And, truthfully, we do have an incredibly hard time retaining US based help.

[pnwmom]

52. That's who you know. I was just at dinner with two professional couples

who both want to get their citizenship here, after having green cards for years.

[HappyMe]

56. Okay.

Safe travels to them.

[JustAnotherGen]

60. Well

My husband has never given up his citizenship and has no intention of doing so. We also now have two joint homes in Acri Italy - and he has accumulated flats in Paris, Firenze,and Rome.

He came here because his very particular skill - UNESCO certified in metal restoration - no one was doing it here/had it. As well, he had moved from art for arts sake (juried artist) to art for commercial purposes and his restoration and artisitic skills are in high demand in the very old cities of US (older architecture - think New Orleans, Manhattan, Boston, most of NJ, Charleston, etc. etc.)

In ten years we will do a three way loop between NJ, Italy, and Costa Rica throughout the year. It's not a matter of going back for going back's sake - all of his family except for a second cousin and well now - me - they are 90% in Italy and 10% in Germany.

Now - ask about his generation that moved to Germany. They are there to make their money (including his younger brother) and go back home to Italy. That same younger brother as well as his younger sister are Americans but have zero desire to live here . .. both left when they were still in grade school.

And - looking at my husband's parents - their 7/8 year stay when he was kid in NYC - was just that. A chance to expose their children and themselves to a different lifestyle/culture but no desire to stay here forever. FIL was a structural engineer that worked on the WTC.

[treestar]

63. Then what is it ?

If it has to do with the corporate 1% don't they run Europe too ?

[Bluenorthwest]

66. But they stay. Why is that? In my field, Europeans and Canadians and Australians have to come

here to get the big biscuit most usually. Those who do not remain minor or regional players. There are exceptions, of course. I assume from your posting history that you know mostly straight and 'faith based' Europeans, and would not really care about nor know about how minority peoples are treated there, which has great variations around the continent.

[NCTraveler]

67. I know a family from Germany who moved her just over a year ago.

The wife came here for a temporary work assignment. They are now doing everything possible to stay here for good. The business is thriving and the company is going to have her stay here to continue working on its growth in the US. This is in the Tampa Bay area of Florida. They absolutely love it.

A person who works with me was just granted citizenship after about 10 years. She is happy as could be. She came here from England.

That is my anecdotal evidence that doesn't really amount to a hill of beans. Except that maybe your acquaintances don't live in a place like Tampa. That might make them want to stay a little more.

[kelliekat44]

75. And of course they must be white? Everything is relative. nt

[former9thward]

69. What in the world is stopping them?

I am unaware of any restrictions of travel to Europe. If there are tell them to go to Canada or Mexico and make their escape from there.

[Jack_Dawson]

71. Seriously - go back home, Euros...

And take your skinny jeans with you if you hate it so much.

[Nye Bevan]

72. Nice. "I can't stand this bloody awful country you have here!"

"D'accord, moi aussi, je voudrais get the hell away from les Etats Unis!"
"Yawohl! Der WienerSchnitzel in der states ist nastyheimer!"

You think they would be polite enough to keep these sentiments to themselves.

[meaculpa2011]

76. I got T-boned by a drunk driver...

last summer and was getting patched by the EMTs when his Mama showed up.

She remarked that in their country they wouldn't have to worry about paying the medical bill.

I told her that if they had stayed there I'd be at home having dinner with my wife and kids.

Was I too snarky?

BTW: I never got a bill from the volunteer fire department.